Orientation flights

[CAPSQDN102]

I have a cadets father that would like to become a senior member and fly one of our aircraft on an oriantation flight and teach the cadets about flying he has a comercial pilots license and he's doing a test for CFI, so what do you think should I let him fly

[davidsinn]

I have a cadets father that would like to become a senior member and fly one of our aircraft on an oriantation flight and teach the cadets about flying he has a comercial pilots license and he's doing a test for CFI, so what do you think should I let him fly

Does he meet the requirements as laid out in the regs?

[Short Field]

And does he understand it is a "orientation" flight according to a syllabus and not five free hours of flight instruction?

Sign him up and let him start the qualification process to be a O'Ride pilot.  It is not that fast a road to a Fm 5 check ride.

[EMT-83]

Hmmm... the original post looks like it was written by a cadet. But if it's for real:

Getting parents involved with CAP is (almost) always a good idea. Some of our most active and successful senior members have cadets in the program.

Like any other prospective pilot member, made sure that he knows the rules before signing on the dotted line.

[a2capt]

This could be them..
http://www.pawingcap.com/gp3/102/

[Eclipse]

Like any other prospective pilot member, made sure that he knows the rules before signing on the dotted line.

Cadet or no, he won't get approved as an o-pilot without wing approval.

Make sure he understands that it will likely be 6-months to a year before he is approved, assuming he has the minimum hours PIC.
Presumably a commercial working on his CFI would meet that, but you never know.

3-7. Classification of CAP Pilots

d. Cadet, Teacher and ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots.
(1) Current CAP senior member.
(2) CAP VFR Pilot at least 21 years of age (or have a valid FAA CFI certificate).
(3) For powered airplanes have 200 hours PIC time.
(4) For gliders have 100 flights as PIC or be a qualified CFIG.
(5) For ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots have 300 hours PIC time and completed the exam for "Orientation Pilot – Powered for ROTC". This exam will be taken every 4 years. (If over the 4 year limit, 60 days from the date of this regulation are allowed to retake the test.)
(6) For Cadet and Teacher Orientation Pilots complete the exam for "Orientation Pilot – Powered" if a power pilot and "Orientation Pilot – Glider" if a glider pilot.
(7) Satisfactorily complete a Cadet/Teacher Orientation Flight endorsement on a CAPF 5 within the preceding 12 calendar months and be designated in writing as an ROTC/JROTC or Cadet/Teacher Orientation pilot by the, region or wing commander, or their designee.

Those are the minimums, some wings have additional hoops.

[PHall]

Like any other prospective pilot member, made sure that he knows the rules before signing on the dotted line.

Cadet or no, he won't get approved as an o-pilot without wing approval.

Make sure he understands that it will likely be 6-months to a year before he is approved, assuming he has the minimum hours PIC.
Presumably a commercial working on his CFI would meet that, but you never know.

3-7. Classification of CAP Pilots

d. Cadet, Teacher and ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots.
(1) Current CAP senior member.
(2) CAP VFR Pilot at least 21 years of age (or have a valid FAA CFI certificate).
(3) For powered airplanes have 200 hours PIC time.
(4) For gliders have 100 flights as PIC or be a qualified CFIG.
(5) For ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots have 300 hours PIC time and completed the exam for "Orientation Pilot – Powered for ROTC". This exam will be taken every 4 years. (If over the 4 year limit, 60 days from the date of this regulation are allowed to retake the test.)
(6) For Cadet and Teacher Orientation Pilots complete the exam for "Orientation Pilot – Powered" if a power pilot and "Orientation Pilot – Glider" if a glider pilot.
(7) Satisfactorily complete a Cadet/Teacher Orientation Flight endorsement on a CAPF 5 within the preceding 12 calendar months and be designated in writing as an ROTC/JROTC or Cadet/Teacher Orientation pilot by the, region or wing commander, or their designee.

Those are the minimums, some wings have additional hoops.

You did pick up on the part about this being a cadet's father, right?

[Eclipse]

You did pick up on the part about this being a cadet's father, right?

I meant "cadet or no" as to the poster, not the pilot.

[FW]

This could be them..
http://www.pawingcap.com/gp3/102/

Gee, it's really nice to see my old squadron doing so well.   

[scooter]

I wonder about those that just want to be an Oride pilot and nothing else. If they aren't going to actually do something for the squadron, like take on a job, then I think they should be discouraged or just told no. Give the Orides to the people that put out the effort to support the squadron first. They earned the free flying.

[PHall]

I wonder about those that just want to be an Oride pilot and nothing else. If they aren't going to actually do something for the squadron, like take on a job, then I think they should be discouraged or just told no. Give the Orides to the people that put out the effort to support the squadron first. They earned the free flying.

Many of the "ES" pilots won't fly cadet orientation flights. They don't want to be "bothered" with dealing with the "kids".
They joined CAP to fly Search and Rescue!!!

So if you get a guy who wants to fly orientation flights you hang on to them.
Pilot availability is one of the biggest reasons O-Flights get cancelled.

[a2capt]

I wish it was pilot availability.. it's been engine cylinders, magneto, 100 hour .. WX once, and .. oh, money. Several times, money. We've had to ditch o-flights about 8 times since January.

[jks19714]

I kind of wish that they gave an orientation flight to seniors.  I'm primarily a commo/IT guy, both by vocation and avocation, but it has been > 30 years since I've been in a light aircraft.  Seeing how they perform searches would be nice -- it's not very fulfilling to sit exclusively at one end of the commo pipeline.  My second SAREX I asked to work comms at the Wing end -- good experience.
"
I've only been in CAP for 4 months, so most of my SAR "expertise" comes from books and my 25 years in the volunteer fire service.  Lots to learn!

john

[Eclipse]

Seniors can get O-Rides, but it would be on their own, the unit, or the pilot's nickel.  It's probably easier to go as aircrew ballast.

[jks19714]

Seniors can get O-Rides, but it would be on their own, the unit, or the pilot's nickel.  It's probably easier to go as aircrew ballast.

I doubt they need THAT much ballast on anything smaller than a C-17!   

We fly traffic missions pretty regularly for DELDOT, maybe I can qualify as a stowaway!

[Spaceman3750]

If there is transport time for the plane before picking up cadets can a senior near where the plane is based ride along on the "dead legs"?

[Thrashed]

Good question. SM's can ride in CAP aircraft, but the transport to o-flights is normally billed to the AF under orientation flights. Why would they allow a SM on an orientation mission number? I don't know the answer, but I'll ask up the chain.

[davidsinn]

I wish it was pilot availability.. it's been engine cylinders, magneto, 100 hour .. WX once, and .. oh, money. Several times, money. We've had to ditch o-flights about 8 times since January.

You're not in INWG are you? That sounds a lot like what I'm fighting right now.

[Thrashed]

It's funny how everyone begs for O-flights when the plane is down, gone, or there is no funding. When we get flying, I have a hard time filling the seats with cadets! I can't get pilots either. Most quit CAP and the rest don't want to do O-flights. Some of us have little free time too.

[davidsinn]

It's funny how everyone begs for O-flights when the plane is down, gone, or there is no funding. When we get flying, I have a hard time filling the seats with cadets! I can't get pilots either. Most quit CAP and the rest don't want to do O-flights. Some of us have little free time too.

I've got the funding and the cadets but no airplanes or pilots. It's quite annoying.

[jimmydeanno]

I've plenty of cadets, but none have been up in a year because the local O-Flight pilots don't "feel like flying."  That, and the way the wing allocates O-Flight money is plain dumb.

[davidsinn]

I've plenty of cadets, but none have been up in a year because the local O-Flight pilots don't "feel like flying."  That, and the way the wing allocates O-Flight money is plain dumb.

I don't have local pilots or aircraft so that makes it hard. Wing gives the groups the money and have them allocate it. I'm the group AE and it's fallen to me to handle that duty. I have most of my units in two clusters with one outlier so I hold multi-unit flying days and give the outlier a percentage of the funds based upon their percentage of cadets vs the group cadet total so they can use pilots local to them.

[jimmydeanno]

I've plenty of cadets, but none have been up in a year because the local O-Flight pilots don't "feel like flying."  That, and the way the wing allocates O-Flight money is plain dumb.

I don't have local pilots or aircraft so that makes it hard. Wing gives the groups the money and have them allocate it. I'm the group AE and it's fallen to me to handle that duty. I have most of my units in two clusters with one outlier so I hold multi-unit flying days and give the outlier a percentage of the funds based upon their percentage of cadets vs the group cadet total so they can use pilots local to them.

My wing throws money into WMIRS and whoever happens to see it that day gets it.  Hooray....and a lot of the time it's like $104.27 at a time...

[RADIOMAN015]

I've plenty of cadets, but none have been up in a year because the local O-Flight pilots don't "feel like flying."  That, and the way the wing allocates O-Flight money is plain dumb.

If those pilots are taking those same planes out for "proficiency flying" aka flying club activity, perhaps someone needs to talk to them.

The other challenge could be pilots transitioning to glass cockpit, 172 versus 182 and instructor availability

Also regarding O Flight money, is it allocated based upon the number of cadets that have not had any O flight at all, prioritize by how long they've been in the program and have had NO flights OR should it be based upon a cadet progress in the program so those who are progressing get priority for the flights
RM 

[Eclipse]

Also regarding O Flight money, is it allocated based upon the number of cadets that have not had any O flight at all, prioritize by how long they've been in the program and have had NO flights OR should it be based upon a cadet progress in the program so those who are progressing get priority for the flights

It varies by wing, with the majority simply "flying cadets".  Rarely is there that much thought given to who is flying when - as long as there are cadets
willing to show up, a pilot, and an available airframe, the money is generally approved.  99 rides are sprinkled on top when cadets are interested.

In a lot of wings, the challenge is getting cadets to care / show up, which results in pilots standing on the ramp by themselves, and in turn not interested in doing that more than once or twice.

As I've mentioned before, to a lot of cadets, flying in a Cessana is exciting once or twice, then it is back to Halo or Six Flags for real thrills.

[PHall]

Also regarding O Flight money, is it allocated based upon the number of cadets that have not had any O flight at all, prioritize by how long they've been in the program and have had NO flights OR should it be based upon a cadet progress in the program so those who are progressing get priority for the flights

It varies by wing, with the majority simply "flying cadets".  Rarely is there that much thought given to who is flying when - as long as there are cadets
willing to show up, a pilot, and an available airframe, the money is generally approved.  99 rides are sprinkled on top when cadets are interested.

In a lot of wings, the challenge is getting cadets to care / show up, which results in pilots standing on the ramp by themselves, and in turn not interested in doing that more than once or twice.

As I've mentioned before, to a lot of cadets, flying in a Cessana is exciting once or twice, then it is back to Halo or Six Flags for real thrills.

News Flash for ya, not all cadets are interested in flying or even aviation. They have other interests like ES and Leadership training.

[RADIOMAN015]

Also regarding O Flight money, is it allocated based upon the number of cadets that have not had any O flight at all, prioritize by how long they've been in the program and have had NO flights OR should it be based upon a cadet progress in the program so those who are progressing get priority for the flights

It varies by wing, with the majority simply "flying cadets".  Rarely is there that much thought given to who is flying when - as long as there are cadets
willing to show up, a pilot, and an available airframe, the money is generally approved.  99 rides are sprinkled on top when cadets are interested.

In a lot of wings, the challenge is getting cadets to care / show up, which results in pilots standing on the ramp by themselves, and in turn not interested in doing that more than once or twice.

As I've mentioned before, to a lot of cadets, flying in a Cessana is exciting once or twice, then it is back to Halo or Six Flags for real thrills.

News Flash for ya, not all cadets are interested in flying or even aviation. They have other interests like ES and Leadership training.

We are the Civil Air Patrol -- If a cadet isn't interested in a flight orientation than we should be getting something signed by them indicating this and just concentrate on those cadets that have an interest.  This would also be available during SUI's to indicate % of cadets (interested cadets) with OFlights as opposed to those not interested in O'Flights.  I know pilots that have taken cadets up on their "own dime" because of the cadets' intense interest in aviation.

Surely we don't want to force anyone into a plane, but on the hand we need to be sure that there's adequate opportunity in ALL CAP units for cadets to fly.
RM     

[Thrashed]

Remember that pilots may not join to give rides to snot nose kids. They might want to do ES or CD flying. I like doing O-flights myself, but I do have trouble with cadets not showing up after they signed up. I don't have the time to do lots of flights due to work and other things I'm involved in. Remember that the pilots are volunteers too.

[jks19714]

Remember that pilots may not join to give rides to snot nose kids. They might want to do ES or CD flying. I like doing O-flights myself, but I do have trouble with cadets not showing up after they signed up. I don't have the time to do lots of flights due to work and other things I'm involved in. Remember that the pilots are volunteers too.

I'm going to pipe up (even though I'm new to CAP) in defense of those "snot-nosed" kids.  I volunteer in a cadet squadron and I've found most of them to be be fairly squared-away (given their experience level) and motivated to do CAP after school and every other distraction in their lives. 

Don't forget that most them can't ride a bike or walk to an airport -- they are dependent on a parent (usually) or a senior member to give them a ride.  I've found most of our cadets to be pretty attentive and willing to ask "dumb" questions when they don't understand something.

Wish I could say that about some of the university students these days...

[jimmydeanno]

Remember that pilots may not join to give rides to snot nose kids. They might want to do ES or CD flying. I like doing O-flights myself, but I do have trouble with cadets not showing up after they signed up. I don't have the time to do lots of flights due to work and other things I'm involved in. Remember that the pilots are volunteers too.

I have issue with getting qualed as an oflight pilot and not doing oflights. It seems that if you go through the trouble of getting the qualification, the pilot probably wants to fly those types of missions...

[Al Sayre]

Good question. SM's can ride in CAP aircraft, but the transport to o-flights is normally billed to the AF under orientation flights. Why would they allow a SM on an orientation mission number? I don't know the answer, but I'll ask up the chain.

If you are doing the flight as a transport (ferry) mission to get to the Cadets, then a SM could ride along on the transport mission.  They could be very useful in keeping up with the O'ride paperwork, and supervising the other Cadets while they are waiting for their turn to fly.  We generally try to put in 2 Cadets from the local squadron when we go to fly Cadets from another squadron, and conduct thier O'flights on they way up and back.  That way there is no ferry time eating into the O'flight budget, and more cadets get flown.

[smithwr2]

It's funny how everyone begs for O-flights when the plane is down, gone, or there is no funding. When we get flying, I have a hard time filling the seats with cadets! I can't get pilots either. Most quit CAP and the rest don't want to do O-flights. Some of us have little free time too.

I provide quite a few O-Rides and would agree with the statement above...one of the biggest hurdles to flying cadets is finding cadets who want to fly.  It helps a lot when an activity is organized via a Wing special event, airshow, encampment, etc.  Outside of these organized events, it probably takes an hour of non-flying duty (marketing and sign up announcements, schedule planes and pilots, set up sorties, answer parent questions, commute to the airport, cancel and reschedule it all over again for bad weather, etc.) for every hour of flying.  The marketing and sign-up process is time consuming.  I'm not complaining...it's still worth it for me. 

[smithwr2]

I wonder about those that just want to be an Oride pilot and nothing else. If they aren't going to actually do something for the squadron, like take on a job, then I think they should be discouraged or just told no. Give the Orides to the people that put out the effort to support the squadron first. They earned the free flying.

I do have a problem with some members who think that serving as ORide pilot is somehow a "lesser duty", or even some kind of reward for "real duty" otherwise provided to the squadron.  Giving Orientation Flights is just as legitimate duty as any other Air Force-funded mission.  An A15 mission number for an ORide is not some pat on the head for good pilot behavior.  An A15 flight is volunteer time given to the squadron, wing, and the CAP program in general.   Keep in mind that the Congressional Charter for CAP lists only one requirement for CAP to keep its Congressionally Chartered Non-profit status as an organization, and that is Aerospace Education.  ES - optional.  CD - optional.  Pretty badges and medals - optional.  So please don't cast Cadet Orientation Flights as some kind of a reward for doing other squadron tasks.  Volunteers and the time they give should be valued for however they are willing and able to serve the program.

[lordmonar]

Certainly if your squadron has an over abundance of O-ride pilots.....I got no problem with farming out the the flight taskings based on how much work they do for the squadron.

But.....does anyone have that "problem"?

As most have stated.....the issues are timing (pilot available the same time the cadets are), Aircraft, Weather and funding.

NVWG has a free for all on O-ride funding....the money is there, first come first serve.  The planes are an issue lately (lots of maintenance problems).  We have seveal pilots in our squadron but no aircraft assigned.  But we have a very good schedluler that makes sure anyone NVWG members can schedule up the aircraft almost anytime the want it.

Now will grant that NVWG is pretty small....but we do a good job of getting all our cadets up in the air and spending all of O-ride money (and sometimes other wings money too  )