Wearing the Flight Suit While Training for Observer

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I am about to start my training for Mission Scanner to progress to Observer.

I know some say that if you don't have a flight crew rating to just wear a patch that says Mission Scanner, but I haven't earned MS and I don't want to wear something I didn't earn yet.

I do have a rating of GT3, should I just wear a patch that has the GT badge?

[Eclipse]

That or no rating at all.

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

[jeders]

I do have a rating of GT3, should I just wear a patch that has the GT badge?

That's one option. Or you could wear the BDUs until you get MS qual'd and not have to worry about the ASNP.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That or no rating at all.

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

I said I am about to begin training for Mission Scanner to progress to Observer.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I do have a rating of GT3, should I just wear a patch that has the GT badge?

That's one option. Or you could wear the BDUs until you get MS qual'd and not have to worry about the ASNP.

ASNP?

[Eclipse]

My bad, misread.

Then the appropriate badge would be either just name / grade, or with the GTM badge.

Or as, above, just wear your BDU's.

[jeders]

ASNP=Aircrew Style Name Patch (someone correct me if I got that wrong, it's been a long day.)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

My bad, misread.

Then the appropriate badge would be either just name / grade, or with the GTM badge.

Or as, above, just wear your BDU's.

No problem, I even went back and re-read what I typed about five times to make sure I didn't mess it up, I have done that a few times.

I have thought about just wearing BDU's, but I am rather safety minded, and I know the chances are slim, but hey, if I get into a fire, I would like to have Nomex. I saw that little video on another thread about getting blasted by like five or six flame throwers, hahaha what a joke. But seriously I like the idea that if in a small fire I have the ability to last a few extra seconds. And that isn't anything that my BDU's can handle especially with all the starch that mine get soaked in.

[Slim]

Another option would be to buy the leather name patch with mission scanner printed on it, then place a piece of electrical tape over that line until you earn the rating.  Once you have it, peel the tape off and you're GTG.  You could almost do the same thing with having observer wings covered up until you get that rating too, assuming you're able to get it all done in a short amount of time.  That would also give you some encouragement and something to work for.

The spacing will look a little off with the other two lines, but I doubt anyone would say anything about it.  Especially if you're doing it to save some $$$ down the road.  Depending on where you go to order them, they aren't a ton of money, but it does add up.  One patch with GTM to wear while you train for MS (@ $8-10), one with MS until you get MO, and finally one with MO wings when you're done.  That's upwards of $30 in a year if you knock it all out in a hurry.  I'd also recommend getting "LT" put on them for grade, as you're covered for a year or two until your next promotion, and another purchase.  I've still got a couple of them that have "MAJ" black/white Dymo tape labels covering where "CAPT" used to be.  But I did upgrade and buy a couple of new ones last year.

Or, just get patches made with the GTM badge and wear that one until you get your wings.  Then get a patch made with both on them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I already have a patch with GT on it, so I think I will just use it. Thank you for the help.

Next question, I have the Flight Line and Air Crew Guide. I am reading through it, but I have heard that there are some PPT presentations  with further information. Does anyone have these? I have tried Googling them with no avail.

[EMT-83]

Google "nesa aircrew tasks"

[Stonewall]

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

BITD (a Wednesday BTW) I became an Observer without becoming a Scanner.  Have no idea if that process has changed, but in the early 90s you just had to fly 2 or 3 training flights in the Scanner seat for familiarization and take the Scanner ECI (correspondence course).  Being a qualified Scanner was not a prerequisite to become an Observer.  At the time I think 1% of CAP knew that and I'd get questioned every time I'd show up to SAREX's to fly as an Observer.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Google "nesa aircrew tasks"

Thank you, that gave a few good slides.

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

BITD (a Wednesday BTW) I became an Observer without becoming a Scanner.  Have no idea if that process has changed, but in the early 90s you just had to fly 2 or 3 training flights in the Scanner seat for familiarization and take the Scanner ECI (correspondence course).  Being a qualified Scanner was not a prerequisite to become an Observer.  At the time I think 1% of CAP knew that and I'd get questioned every time I'd show up to SAREX's to fly as an Observer.

Now there is a whole SQTR for it.

[EMT-83]

Scanner is now a prerequisite for Observer and Mission Pilot.

[Slim]

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

BITD (a Wednesday BTW) I became an Observer without becoming a Scanner.  Have no idea if that process has changed, but in the early 90s you just had to fly 2 or 3 training flights in the Scanner seat for familiarization and take the Scanner ECI (correspondence course).  Being a qualified Scanner was not a prerequisite to become an Observer.  At the time I think 1% of CAP knew that and I'd get questioned every time I'd show up to SAREX's to fly as an Observer.

Same way I got it, except that I had most of the training (ground school stuff) complete as a cadet, took both the observer and scanner ECI courses as soon as I turned senior.  Got my mission (two days) as a scanner to get that qualification, went to the next mission (also two days), and came home a qualified observer.

[simon]

Hats off to you for wanting to become an aircrew member. Eventually you will need a flight suit. Yes, new, they are $200. Go to EBay and buy an ex-USAF one for $40. It will do fine. It may not be as flame proof as a new one but it will be a lot better than cotton BDU's. When you have racked up some more hours you can buy a new one.

[jeders]

Next question, I have the Flight Line and Air Crew Guide. I am reading through it, but I have heard that there are some PPT presentations  with further information. Does anyone have these? I have tried Googling them with no avail.

Here is the full aircrew curriculum on the NESA site http://www.nesa.cap.gov/mascurr.htm . You can get to this from capmembers.com, but I'm not going to go through the maze of directions for that right now. I would recommend printing out, preferably at a reduced size, the in-flight guide and keeping it with you for quick reference. However, if you do that, be sure to check back on the NESA site every few months to checks for updates. As for the SQTRs, you can find those in eServices under My Operations Qualifications, which is also where you'll enter stuff in once you're done.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Next question, I have the Flight Line and Air Crew Guide. I am reading through it, but I have heard that there are some PPT presentations  with further information. Does anyone have these? I have tried Googling them with no avail.

Here is the full aircrew curriculum on the NESA site http://www.nesa.cap.gov/mascurr.htm . You can get to this from capmembers.com, but I'm not going to go through the maze of directions for that right now. I would recommend printing out, preferably at a reduced size, the in-flight guide and keeping it with you for quick reference. However, if you do that, be sure to check back on the NESA site every few months to checks for updates. As for the SQTRs, you can find those in eServices under My Operations Qualifications, which is also where you'll enter stuff in once you're done.

Thank you. I have been reading the air crew guide, and there is more information than I thought there would be, but is there anything that either isn't in there, or has been changed since it was made?

[jeders]

The guide has all of the tasks that need to be completed and how to evaluate them. The reference text, Vol 1 for Scanner, has way more information that you should read and know. If it's not in there, it doesn't exist.

[sleepyboyd]

NOMEX flightsuits are only fire-resistant... not fire proof.  This property of the USAF flight suit is degreaded over time as the user washes the suit.  Beleive it or not, NOMEX looses the majority of this property when laundered and machine dried 10-12 times.  It is completely lost if you ever wash it in fabric softener, or scented detergent.

Basically, when the flight suit feels nice and soft, you are no longer protected.  A brand new USAF Flight suit will only offer about 10-20 seconds of flamb resistance tops... that dosen't mean it's not going to get hot in there.  In a C-172, at 1000AGL search altitude you are at least 60 seconds from landing the aircraft in the event of a cockpit fire (and thats pushing the nose over and screaming at the ground and flaring for a rough landing).  Even then, you have to come to a complete stop, unless you want to jump out.

Basically, unless you plan on taking VERY good care of the suit, just go buy one off of Ebay and learn to work the fire extinguisher between the two front seats.

[Hawk200]

This property of the USAF flight suit is degreaded over time as the user washes the suit.  Beleive it or not, NOMEX looses the majority of this property when laundered and machine dried 10-12 times. It is completely lost if you ever wash it in fabric softener, or scented detergent

I don't think so. Don't know where you got that myth from, but that's incorrect. Nomex will maintain it's fire resistant properties for the duration of it's life, the protection is integral to the material, not some kind of treatment. What you're talking about seems true for permethrin, but not Nomex.

Protection to the wearer can degrade if the suit becomes thin. That's why they should be carefully maintained. Running it through an extra rinse cycle is advised to remove all detergent. Of course, this also keeps them from being itchy. Same for fabric softener.

[sleepyboyd]

Thats the lesson I received from Life Support in Navigator School 5 years ago.  They may have had it wrong....

[Hawk200]

Thats the lesson I received from Life Support in Navigator School 5 years ago.  They may have had it wrong....

They were seriously mistaken then. I've dealt with Life Support (Air Force) and ALSE (Army), and that little gem has never come up. I've heard a few people try to get new suits using that, but it never worked.

Twenty years ago it was a myth, apparently one that is still persisting. I've got flightsuits and A2CUs in my closet that look barely used, and they've all had more than 10 or 12 washes. I have an extremely old one that is getting threadbare, just haven't taken the time to cut it into rags yet. I wouldn't use it for the simple fact that it has less material in it, not because the Nomex reached some non existant expiration date.

Check out Dupont's website, it's got a little more info.

[SarDragon]

Look up Nomex on the DuPont web site, and also read the Wikipedia article.

I messed around with a trashed flight suit a while back, and did some allegedly abusive things to it (detergent, soap, fabric softener, etc), and didn't notice any big differences. I used a gas kitchen stove and some mechanicals to keep the various pieces of fabric a consistent distance from the flame.

[a2capt]

Heh, yeah. If washing it was bad for it, just imagine actually using it during a bit more action than we're used to seeing.

[flyboy53]

Q: How are you training for Observer when you haven't been a scanner?

BITD (a Wednesday BTW) I became an Observer without becoming a Scanner.  Have no idea if that process has changed, but in the early 90s you just had to fly 2 or 3 training flights in the Scanner seat for familiarization and take the Scanner ECI (correspondence course).  Being a qualified Scanner was not a prerequisite to become an Observer.  At the time I think 1% of CAP knew that and I'd get questioned every time I'd show up to SAREX's to fly as an Observer.

Same way I got it, except that I had most of the training (ground school stuff) complete as a cadet, took both the observer and scanner ECI courses as soon as I turned senior.  Got my mission (two days) as a scanner to get that qualification, went to the next mission (also two days), and came home a qualified observer.

Me, too, but I earned my rating the first time in 1972 and requalified in 2003.

[sleepyboyd]

Wow, looked it up, and I stand corrected on the NOMEX thing...   

Thats just even more reason to go buy a used one if it does not loose that property.  Maybe I can find some folks in the AF who want to get rid of thier "old" suits...lol j/k

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Wow, looked it up, and I stand corrected on the NOMEX thing...   

Thats just even more reason to go buy a used one if it does not loose that property.  Maybe I can find some folks in the AF who want to get rid of thier "old" suits...lol j/k

Yes, I thought it was awesome when I learned that the effectiveness of nomex is not affected washing. It has way more to do with the actual material than any chemical treatments.

Also, I got lucky and got my hands on a suit that is in really good condition, it is not nomex, the material is aramid, I don't know what that material is, but I am told it is still really good stuff. It came courtesy of my squadron.

[SilverEagle2]

Aramid is one of the generic/technical names for Nomex

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Aramid is Nomex

Oh, awesome, I had no idea, the only thing I have ever had like the sort was when the Army issued us gloves that actually said nomex.

[SilverEagle2]

More correctly stated, Nomex is an Aramid fabric.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

More correctly stated, Nomex is an Aramid fabric.

Is there really a difference between something labeled "NOMEX" and "ARAMID?"

[SilverEagle2]

Manufacture preference perhaps.

[SarDragon]

Nomex is the DuPont brand name for their version of aramid fiber.