The Search for the Kim Family

Started by MidwaySix, December 06, 2006, 11:35:50 PM

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MidwaySix

CNN: Trail of clothing led searchers to lost father's body
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/missing.family/index.html

Was CAP involved in the search?

Chris Jacobs

Not at all, and I am not happy >:(.

We could have been a huge asset to the search.  The family was renting a privet helo's while we had crews itching to go.  The CAP crews in the local area are claiming that the place that the sheriff found the car would have been one of the first places that they would have flow.  Cars are known to get stuck on that road i guess in the winter.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Eclipse

At least one story I read indicated that the helos were using IR sensors and were concentrating on two hot-spots.

Where the hell was every Archer plane in the area?

A wilderness search in winter conditions is no place to be messing around, but this would certainly been a justification to drag every qual'ed GTM from the whole state into the mix.

Time is life, and it looks to me like he was walking for a while.

"That Others May Zoom"

Chris Jacobs

The nearest archer is a good day away.  It is in California.

We don't have a lot of ground team around here.  And any ways the place that they were searching in was not suitable for a regular ground team.  the mountain rescue guys couldn't even get to him.  they had to air lift him out i believe.

We did have aircrews and support personnel begging to go out, but I don't believe that we have the best of relationships with that sheriff.  Unlike some states the sheriff decides who is going to search.

And they were using inferred.  I believe they had 4 privet helo's and 2 national guard helo's.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

CAP428

#4
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on December 07, 2006, 02:11:08 AM
Not at all, and I am not happy >:(.

We could have been a huge asset to the search.  The family was renting a privet helo's while we had crews itching to go. 

While I agree CAP could have helped a lot, we do not have an exclusive right to all search and rescue missions throughouth the country, so to be bitter that we were not used seems kind like a moot point.  It also seems especially insensitive to the family to treat their situation like a day of entertainment for CAP crews "itching to go."

CAP does a lot to help SAR missions across the nation, but we are not the only ones.  Looking back in hindsight saying "we woulda looked there first," is neither an objective view nor constructive, it is childish.

****[Note: the impression I got from the previous post has since been cleared up.  The above statements by me are retracted.]****

Chris Jacobs

Itching to go is wanting to help.  We all wanted to see a good end to this.  It was not to get a play day but to do what we all volunteer to do.  If you watched the press conference you can see that the sheriff could not even get a whole sentace out without breaking down.  I don't know how many searches you have been on but the very few that i have been on i become emotionally attached to the subject and the family.  I was wanting to go and help, not play.  So before you start accusing people of wanting to go and play i hope you know who you are talking to.  On top of that they were people from our area.  so be careful because you never know who knows who.  We had someone make a comment like this once to find out that one of our members knew the person and did have more of an intrest than going to play.

And the people that are making what you call the childish comment are people from the area, that know it very well.  I don't know where you are from but here in Oregon the terrain is very challenging.  And most the time local people are the ones that know all the details about it.  I know the terrain in my area and if they found a family on a road that was obvious to me after a week, i would be saying the same thing.  Now i will agree with you that it looks a little childish, but you have to remember that these people know the area.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

CAP428

that's good to hear.  The way it came across to me [its hard to judge tone online, though] was that you were "itching to go" b/c you just wanted a good SAR to do, not to help.  As long as helping was you objective, that is good.

Chris Jacobs

Thank you very much.  I really hope that next time that we can be of some help to the people out there.

And the fact that you cant show tone over the internet is a problem.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Psicorp

Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

I just hate to see a situation where politics, issues from long ago, personal grievances, or simply a lack of saying "we're here" keeps trained personnel from assisting when there's such a dire need.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Chris Jacobs

First i am 99% sure we cant use CAP assets, including aircraft.  nothing stops a member from going as a civilian and volunteering with a sheriff.  The only thing is here in Oregon you have to go through a lengthly proses for a sheriff to allow you on a search.  As long as we are being requested as CAP we are recognized as having the same training as the sheriffs.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Eclipse

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

No.  100% no.  Unless you are loking to be 2b'ed.  That's not how it works - CAP is not a posse.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

In the itching to go regard, we are no different than police, fire, or other military agencies.

We train to assist people when bad things happen, in order for us to stretch our wings, bad things have to happen.  Ask any fireman about this paradigm - the "best" situation is a tasty fire where no one gets hurt.  Its just human nature.

Few of us wish for bad things to happen, but it is frustrating when they do happen and to have to sit from the sidelines when we could help.

The whole point of living a life where yo do more than sit around watching football and playing X-Box is to be more than an observer in life.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hotel 179

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   


Good Morning, Psicorp...and all,

We have had success in getting in the search process by making direct contact with the IC and offering our services.  The conversation is simple, "We have an aircraft and ground team, how can we help."  Next is the walk through for the phone-call to AFRCC, who contacts the Wing Alerting Officer.  I say something to the effect of, "Since we are dispatched by the Air Force, there's a hoop to jump through but if you will call this toll-free number they will walk you through the process and it will only take a moment."

Of course, I have already called the alerting officer to give him a head's up and from the Sheriff's conversation with AFRCC I already know what the mission number is so we can get started heading to our stations. 

The key that we have found is constant contact with the Emergency Operations Community.  Coca-Cola sells more soft drinks than anybody in the world and they advertise EVERY day.  If you aren't meeting with the people who are going to be in charge of the initial phases of the search in your community then you will always be on the side-lines.

Semper vi, y'all.....

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

Eclipse

I agree with this in terms of the process, but the relationships, and even the awareness of our very existence needs to occur before there is a need.

"That Others May Zoom"

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2006, 04:36:37 PM
I agree with this in terms of the process, but the relationships, and even the awareness of our very existence needs to occur before there is a need.

[nodding in agreement]

The initial 'selling' is the most critical point, IMHO. There is some truth to the old cliche about first impressions.

It's vital that the right people make the right contacts at the right times in order to best establish any such external relationship; it's even more vital that this is understood within our own ranks before any such attempts are made.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

A.Member

#15
Getting back to the actual story...

In RE: clothing found...

I don't know if anyone else read this but prior to finding Kim's body yesterday, a number of news articles I read quoted a law enforcement officer as stating they found some clothing and believe Kim left them as a marker.

This is the only article I can still find that still references this comment (most other articles were updated with the most recent news):
Searchers keep up hunt for CNET editor
QuoteOregon State Lieutenant Gregg Hastings has confirmed that searchers found a pair of pants they suspect James Kim left behind at the bottom of a ravine, where he is believed to have traveled on foot. Unconfirmed reports from local news stations say rescuers may also have found another of his personal items near the pants.

"You could speculate maybe he's trying to leave a signal as he's moving about," Hastings said in answering reporters' questions about the pants. "He may have also taken some other things that he could have left in other, different positions."

First off, I wasn't there so I truly don't know.  That said, taking the statement at face value, this was one of the silliest/ignorant statements I've heard in some time and couldn't believe it came from a law enforcement officer, especially a LT.  I'm guessing he wasn't the PAO because that never should've been stated. 

When it was reported that some of his clothing was found, my first thought was, he's dead.   Unfortunately, I was right. 

If you've ever done a ground search for someone where hypothermia is a concern, you know that one of the signs you look for is clothing.  As severe hypothermia sets in, one of the things people tend to do is shed their clothing as cognitive abilities are inhibited.  When people begin to disrobe, the situation is critical. 

Another item to take away from this story is to not leave your vehicle.  It offers protection and is easier to locate.  Even upon reading the earlier reports that he'd left his vehicle, I wasn't very optimistic. 

Unfortunately, a tragic ending for the Kim family.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Eclipse

Is this an area with no/poor cel coverage.

It would seem to me that a technology editor would have at least a basic cel phone.

"That Others May Zoom"

floridacyclist

I would take it that was the case....we're not anywhere near as rugged and remote here in the FL Panhandle, yet we still have a lot of dead spots once you're out of town and S GA is pretty barren as well. Even driving through the mountains of NC means "No Service" the majority of the time due to being in the RF shadow of some mountain or another. On the flip side, those same mountains can help you get a signal if you are in a situation where you can climb to the top of one, which Kim may not have been able to do based on weather and weakness.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

ELTHunter

Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 07, 2006, 03:58:44 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   


Good Morning, Psicorp...and all,

We have had success in getting in the search process by making direct contact with the IC and offering our services.  The conversation is simple, "We have an aircraft and ground team, how can we help."  Next is the walk through for the phone-call to AFRCC, who contacts the Wing Alerting Officer.  I say something to the effect of, "Since we are dispatched by the Air Force, there's a hoop to jump through but if you will call this toll-free number they will walk you through the process and it will only take a moment."

Of course, I have already called the alerting officer to give him a head's up and from the Sheriff's conversation with AFRCC I already know what the mission number is so we can get started heading to our stations. 

The key that we have found is constant contact with the Emergency Operations Community.  Coca-Cola sells more soft drinks than anybody in the world and they advertise EVERY day.  If you aren't meeting with the people who are going to be in charge of the initial phases of the search in your community then you will always be on the side-lines.

Semper vi, y'all.....

Stephen

Depending upon the situation, you should call the NOC and not the AFRCC.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

ELTHunter

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civilians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

I just hate to see a situation where politics, issues from long ago, personal grievances, or simply a lack of saying "we're here" keeps trained personnel from assisting when there's such a dire need.



Self deploying is not allowed.  Period.  They really don't like us to even call to offer services, but rather wait to be called.  That's were establishing a relationship with local EMA's comes in.  If the local EMA folks know what you can do and that you have resources they need, they will call or at least you will have a relationship established where you can make contact with them without outright soliciting to participate.

The CAP can't prevent you from volunteering as a private citizen, however, you can't where CAP uniforms, use CAP comms, vehicles or any other CAP assets.  You also can't advertise yourself as CAP, only Joe Citizen.

I realize your frustration, it has happened here a number of times.  Unfortunately, CAP's MOU's are usually with state or federal agencies, not at the local level.  Local officials often are not excited about calling state agencies to ask for CAP assistance for fear that the state or federal agencies will want to take over the mission.  That get's back to the relationship thing.

Having said all this, you have to be carefull who goes out to sell CAP to the local officials.  It should really be a Wing or Group ES Officer of staff member, or at the very least a squadron commander.  You want to portray CAP as a professional organization and give a realistic picture of what CAP can do.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer