"In Your Face" encampment

Started by capme, July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM

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capme

Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality, but I can induce a whole lot of stress without raising my voice.

Exactly what is the purpose of the yelling and screaming?  I am retired MP, so don't give me the whole "its the military way" garbage.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

#1
Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

No.  Yelling is not leadership.

I would suggest spending some time with the search feature - most of the topics you are starting have already been covered extensively - you also might want to check out CadetStuff as this specific topic and similar have been beaten up there as well.

"That Others May Zoom"

tsrup

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality, but I can induce a whole lot of stress without raising my voice.

Exactly what is the purpose of the yelling and screaming?  I am retired MP, so don't give me the whole "its the military way" garbage.

I take it someone noticed something they didn't like. 

It's not the norm, and you'll find that the majority of people involved here with Cadet Programs are opposed to "in your face" yelling. 

There is RST for a reason at the beginning of encampment, and if what they're doing falls under hazing then that is a definite no-no.

Paramedic
hang-around.

DakRadz

Even cadets are not generally for this type of technique. Many who are soon see the light after being given an explanation (RST, anyone?).

Of course, I speak from a limited perspective, but based on general cadettyness I've garnered, cadets only follow this path so long as no one tells them that FMJ isn't a good strategy. My staff at encampment rarely screamed (actually, only during emergency situations)- they did raise their voices, but only when volume was necessary (noisy areas and such).

First Sergeant certainly knew how to project, but it was all in their bearing and manner- those who were professional were trusted by me, because I can generally spot good leaders and their tactics (or so I like to think); the younger cadets respected them because they intuitively sensed that they should.


YMMV

Daniel

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality

Why not I am?

but seriously, all staff have rst. You should see that one which is the relationship between stress and efficiency.


C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

capme

I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.  I have just recently assumed the duties as DCP and I am fighting this mentality.  At first I thought it was just in MEWG, but now I am finding out it is elsewhere in NER.

I have even had senior members, some former Mitchell cadets, argue with me that the "in your face" approach is not hazing.  I was floored.  These senior members went on to "explain" to me that it was necessary to yell and scream to get their attention and induce stress.  WOW!!!

We are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.  RST has been taught in the past, so I am wondering how this even got a foot hold.

Anyway, I am not here to air MEWG's dirty laundry - I thank you for your opinions.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

dwb

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.
Don't use too broad of a brush there... NYWG in no way runs an encampment that involves reenactments of Full Metal Jacket.

I have heard of some "in your face" encampments in other parts of the Region, but that was years ago; I'm not sure how things are nowadays.

capme

No offense intended.  Just meant it went outside MEWG.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

arajca

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
We are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.  RST has been taught in the past, so I am wondering how this even got a foot hold.

It probably pre dates RST and, like so many wrong cadet practices, has been accepted with a wink and a nod after RST was introduced.

dwb

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PMWe are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.
Three years.  It will take you three years to change the culture.  Cadet turnover (and simple aging out) will help, but mostly, I've found that once something has been in place for a few years, it becomes the new "way we've always done things", and it keeps itself going at that point.

I can point to so many examples with NYWG encampments, it's almost silly how tenuously people cling to "traditions" that have really only existed for a relatively small number of years.

PHall

Quote from: dwb on July 27, 2010, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PMWe are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.
Three years.  It will take you three years to change the culture.  Cadet turnover (and simple aging out) will help, but mostly, I've found that once something has been in place for a few years, it becomes the new "way we've always done things", and it keeps itself going at that point.

I can point to so many examples with NYWG encampments, it's almost silly how tenuously people cling to "traditions" that have really only existed for a relatively small number of years.

Same deal in CAWG. We do something for three years at Encampment and it's tradition. ::)

DBlair

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.

Back in the early 1990s, the staff at various activities (not just actual encampments) in NER seemed to have watched FMJ way too many times. I would venture to say it was somewhat common back then, but probably not completely universal through NER. I know from personal experience that in NJWG and elsewhere in NER, it did indeed exist and got pretty bad at times.

It seems that some of the changes to the CP, including the much more detailed CPPT hazing policies, were in response to the FMJ attitudes of the 80s and 90s. Being involved with the CP today, I have sometimes seen this perpetuated by members who were Cadets back then, or by current Cadets who they themselves have watched FMJ too many times.

While I do believe in teaching leadership and discipline, the FMJ mentality is not what the Cadet Program is about today and realistically, is not the best way to teach leadership or discipline. I do not advocate the FMJ approach and I find myself having to deal with quite a few Cadets on a power trip who think this is how they are supposed to behave- or who behave a certain way due to how they were previously treated.

I try to explain to Cadets that rather than just screaming at a fellow Cadet for doing something wrong that was never explained to them, they should take a moment to explain and correct the behavior. So often, Cadets are lost in the shuffle and never learn the proper way of doing things and a quick explanation can sometimes prevent the issue from surfacing ever again.

As for encampments, due to the turnover in the Cadet Program, I would agree that if a policy is enacted and continued for a few years, it will become much more of a norm. Sure, there will be those gung-ho FMJ Cadets who need to be instructed that they need to tone it down, but for the most part, I would venture to say that a few years would do wonders in changing things around.
DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
C/Lt Col (Ret) (1990s Era)
Wing Staff / Legislative Squadron Commander

raivo

My flight sergeant back at my first squadron (back when I was an impressionable young C/A) was telling me all about encampment, when I was getting ready to apply.

Apparently, when his flight went to shower, they each got 10 seconds under each of the 8 shower-heads in the room, and they had to sing the Marine Corps song the entire time. I oppose this.

Raising your voice is fine.

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

biomed441

I have to wonder sometimes if the reason that some cadets push for the FMJ Approach is because they are frustrated that perhaps things have gone a little too far into the boyscouts easy going mentality.  Don't get me wrong, im not advocating for in-your-face approaches, and as DBlair mentioned, military discipline and structure is important but theres a difference between discipline and regulation than with plain unfounded yelling for the sake of yelling.

Hard core FMJ type discipline had its purpose at one point in history.  Though also one would come home to worse from their own parents.  The culture has changed, and thus the approach changes with it. 

Military discipline is still important, though its our job to make sure that we dont forget the definition of military discipline, and that nowhere in that definition does it say to commemorate the epic scenes of Full Metal Jacket.

MSG Mac

Yelling and/or shouting is not discipline, in fact it's a lack of discipline. Those who espouse the FMJ model seem to forget that the time period of the movie was 1966-67. Over 40 years ago and in an entirely different environment than that of the Civil Air Patrol. If any senior or cadet acted like that they would be severely counseled about what he did wrong and why we don't do that.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Hawk200

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 07, 2010, 04:16:06 AMYelling and/or shouting is not discipline, in fact it's a lack of discipline. Those who espouse the FMJ model seem to forget that the time period of the movie was 1966-67. Over 40 years ago and in an entirely different environment than that of the Civil Air Patrol. If any senior or cadet acted like that they would be severely counseled about what he did wrong and why we don't do that.
The differences are also in the environment. Military services want the weak ones to fall out or quit, it's eliminating a weak link prior to the battlefield. Civil Air Patrol doesn't have a mission where someone falling out or quitting later will get someone close to you killed.

Yes, I know that if someone falls out on a mission, we may not find an objective. But it's not really reasonable to think that the actions of one person near the bottom of the chain will ruin the mission. We have numerous people available to take up any slack. If we don't, it's certainly not the fault of the one individual. That's the point of a team, different strengths balance out any weaknesses.

Keydet2010

I personally don't see the problem with yelling or shouting. Coupled with quick time limits are a good way of adding stress to an otherwise unstressful situation (i.e. brushing you teeth or reading) in a controlled environment with the purpose of teaching the recipient to be able to react and think clearly while under pressure in a stressful situation.


Now the problem with adopting a super-"motivated" FMJ approach is that the yelling/screaming is targeted at the trainee not at that trainees actions. As soon as you start name calling or simply start yelling without training and teaching the proper method (such as uniform wear, drill, etc.), you've failed as a leader, mentor, and teacher.


Ideally, encampment staff should use this technique sparingly for the first day or two of encampment as a way to bring about a culture shock for the basic cadets; an "Uh-oh, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore" type of reaction. After that they should transition to a calmer, but still formal tone with the basics. The problem is always that those on staff never understand why these kind of things are done and all they have to go off of is the movies and media, which leads them to believe that all drill instructors do is yell and ridicule. The problem is not with the volume and intensity, the problem is with the mindset and training of the staff themselves.


Also, if staff is yelling or screaming they obviously haven't learned how to use their command voices properly and will be hoarse soon after they start yelling. :)

Майор Хаткевич


Ned

#18
This is a particularly interesting topic to me and one that we have discussed with some frequency in the past - usually without being able to reach a consensus.

I'm convinced that the problem in reaching consensus lies in the medium of an internet discussion board.  It is just very difficult to either convey a scene or understand the context of a situation based on a couple of typed sentences on the internet.  We all are creatures of experience when it comes to CAP, and all too often one person's improper "yelling and screaming" is another person's necessary "raised voice to be heard and to focus a cadet's attention on training."  And both may be right, depending on what is actually occuring.

Here are the things that I think most of us would agree upon:

1.  The CAP cadet program is designed to be a challenging program for youth aged 12-20.
2.  We use a military training model to teach leadership and other life skills to our cadets.
3.  Encampment is different in some respects from ordinary squadron meetings.
4.  Young persons - particularly those in the  age 13-15 cohort for most first-time attendees - are significantly different developmentally and physically than 17-25 year old military service basic trainees.
5.  Cadets and seniors working on encampment staff have far less training and experience than RM NCOs and officers, particularly when compared to highly skilled folks like MTIs & DIs.
6.  Cadets who are over-stressed in their training environment cannot learn, and may even be damaged by the experience.
7.  Most CAP members rarely attend an encampment outside of their home wing or region, so we tend to be fairly insular and do encampment "the way it has always been done."
8.  There is no rule that says one can never raise one's voice when speaking to one or more cadets.
9.  Conversely, screaming abusive language into some cadet's ear at 0300 in the barracks ala Gunny Hartman is always wrong.

After that, it is hard to reach agreement, particularly on the internet.

And I think it is difficult to write rules that will work in all situations.  Things like "squadron meeting nights should be about a 3 on the 10-point Universal Military Discipline Scale, but the first two days of encampment can go up to a 5.  Anyone trying to pull off a 7 or above is hazing per se and will be suspended."

That is why we have experienced and mature CP leaders at encampment.  To ensure the safety of our cadets and also to ensure a rigorous and challenging training environment.  Leaders who can set the example and "walk the walk."  And who can confer with each other and discuss situations that may not be clear at first glance.

Commanders set the tone for encampment.  It is a wing commander's responsibility to adequately communicate the desired "look and feel" to the staff for their encampment, and to clearly set the limits on stress and discipline.  That is hard for any commander to do via email and SOIs. It is best done by putting boots on the ground, observing, and setting the standard.

Without clear and understandable command guidance, we are stuck with one of those "tastes great, less filling" kind of discussions here on CT.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

Eclipse

A straightforward encampment manual, along with videos which show the "right" way to do it would end or limit these conversations
(though sadly not likely end the bad behavior, as people tend to do whatever they want absent direct oversight).

"That Others May Zoom"