Squadron T-Shirts

[Angus]

I just want to double check that while reading the regs I didn't miss anything.  My Squadron is looking at getting T-shirts made up with our unit patch.  The only thing I can find is that it can be no more than 5" in diameter.  The question I have is can the patch be in full color?  My commander believes it can only be black and white. 

[Pylon]

CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 900-2 don't specify for t-shirts single-color or full-color.

[Eclipse]

It can be in color, but since the shirt needs to be black (or brown), most colors won't look very good.

Your best best is to create a monochrome version of your insignia and do them in white on black.

[Angus]

CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 900-2 don't specify for t-shirts single-color or full-color.

Thanks, that's what I was reading. I just wanted to double check in case it was hidden and I missed it.

As far as monochrome or the white on black I had a custom one made and with all the detail and color in our patch doing it in one color is difficult.   

[RiverAux]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities. 

[MIKE]

Blue ink might look good instead of white or black if it's a lighter shade.  Depending on the design.

If you do go with brown shirts though make sure it's the correct brown, AG shade 436.  Pet peeve.

[Eclipse]

Another option is retro-reflective ink, looks real sharp, especially at night, however it will probably double your costs and does not hold
up as well as regular t-shirt inks.

[HGjunkie]

You could just stitch your squadron patch to a black t-shirt in the right spot... would save a lot of hassle. 

[lordmonar]

Blue ink might look good instead of white or black if it's a lighter shade.  Depending on the design.

If you do go with brown shirts though make sure it's the correct brown, AG shade 436.  Pet peeve.

Hi Mike....I have the same Pet Peeve....but as Eclipse is fond of saying...."cite please". 

[Angus]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities.

39-1 says that the Unit Commander can have them made for wear under the BDU if they are of the right color.

[Spaceman3750]

Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

[RiverAux]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities.

39-1 says that the Unit Commander can have them made for wear under the BDU if they are of the right color.

True, but what I was saying was that they could have a squadron t-shirt for wear in situations other than under BDUs.  For example, for PT.  Those t-shirts could be of any color. 

[SarDragon]

You could just stitch your squadron patch to a black t-shirt in the right spot... would save a lot of hassle. 

VERY uncomfortable.

[HGjunkie]

You could just stitch your squadron patch to a black t-shirt in the right spot... would save a lot of hassle. 

VERY uncomfortable.

You tried it?

[SarDragon]

You could just stitch your squadron patch to a black t-shirt in the right spot... would save a lot of hassle. 

VERY uncomfortable.

You tried it?

What do you think? I've tried lots of things, just for gits and shiggles.

Regarding the patch on the shirt, think about a t-shirt with a pocket on it, and the pocket has a piece of cardboard stuffed into it. That's what a patch on a t-shirt feels like. Now put another shirt on over it, with its own pockets. Getting a good mental picture now?

[Angus]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities.

39-1 says that the Unit Commander can have them made for wear under the BDU if they are of the right color.

True, but what I was saying was that they could have a squadron t-shirt for wear in situations other than under BDUs.  For example, for PT.  Those t-shirts could be of any color.

Gotcha.  What we're looking at is the shirts could be used as either PT uniform or under a field uniform.  So as the only color used universally we're looking at black shirts. 

[JC004]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities.

39-1 says that the Unit Commander can have them made for wear under the BDU if they are of the right color.

True, but what I was saying was that they could have a squadron t-shirt for wear in situations other than under BDUs.  For example, for PT.  Those t-shirts could be of any color.

...or if you're at PAWG ENC, your BDU/BBS t-shirts could be of any color.  Currently in ultramarine, dark blue, yellow, orange, red, green...   

[Angus]

Squadrons could make t-shirts that are not designed to be worn under the BDU if they would like.  In other words, a tshirt to be worn outside of CAP activities.

39-1 says that the Unit Commander can have them made for wear under the BDU if they are of the right color.

True, but what I was saying was that they could have a squadron t-shirt for wear in situations other than under BDUs.  For example, for PT.  Those t-shirts could be of any color.

...or if you're at PAWG ENC, your BDU/BBS t-shirts could be of any color.  Currently in ultramarine, dark blue, yellow, orange, red, green...   

And people wonder why we think of PAWG as a "red headed step-child" 

[pbcheez]

from what i hear from people that have been at my base a long time they said that the peeps in the squadron wore solid color t-shirts so you could tell what squadron they were in (Red, Blue, Yellow..etc) but i guess things have changed alot since then.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Our squadron T-Shirt:  (black)

[HGjunkie]

Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

Our squadron T-Shirt:  (black)

Is the back of the shirt even allowed in the regs?

Upon further reading of the regs,
NO.

[PHall]

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Imagine that, National Headquarters handing out illegal uniform stuff.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Is the back of the shirt even allowed in the regs?

Upon further reading of the regs,
NO.

Cadet –
I highly recommend that you do some research before you yell at an officer.  Please refer to the following:

CAPR 900-2, Section, B, Para 6, Sub-para e: Commanders may use the symbol effective immediately on "perishable" products and those involving limited expense, such as printed material, clothing, coins, etc. The symbol should not be applied at this time to other "nonperishable" uses such as aircraft and vehicles. Commanders retain discretion to decide how the symbol is used in their organizations, consistent with these guidelines.

The squadron patch on the front is less than 5".  Wing Commander approved.  Should I forward your statement to him?

[JayT]

But it can't be worn under the BDU shirt.

[SarDragon]

But it can't be worn under the BDU shirt.

Sure it can, if it fits.

Is it allowed? Like many other uniform issues, that seems to be a grey area. WIW at GLR-N 2008, we wore t-shirts with position titles and names on them. They filled a functional need, and were worn as outside shirts, or under the BDU blouse, depending on circumstances.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

^ just because you wore a t-shirt doesn't make them approved for wear under the uniform.



Approved or no for the uniform, the Hap Arnold insignia on the right appears to be incorrectly scaled.

The CAP logo is about 1/3 too big.

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Imagine that, National Headquarters handing out illegal uniform stuff.

Where did you ever read they were specified as for being under the uniform?  They were just t-shirts to market DDR, not specifically a uniform item.

[HGjunkie]

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Imagine that, National Headquarters handing out illegal uniform stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised actually.

Is the back of the shirt even allowed in the regs?

Upon further reading of the regs,
NO.

Cadet –
I highly recommend that you do some research before you yell at an officer.  Please refer to the following:

CAPR 900-2, Section, B, Para 6, Sub-para e: Commanders may use the symbol effective immediately on "perishable" products and those involving limited expense, such as printed material, clothing, coins, etc. The symbol should not be applied at this time to other "nonperishable" uses such as aircraft and vehicles. Commanders retain discretion to decide how the symbol is used in their organizations, consistent with these guidelines.

The squadron patch on the front is less than 5".  Wing Commander approved.  Should I forward your statement to him?

"Clothing" can mean anything. Uniform Clothing means clothing you can wear w/ the uniforms. again, It's a grey area, but common sense must be excercised.
lets go back to 39-1.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 2-3
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.]

COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart (NHQ,VANGUARD) may sell items
that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms. This
publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform
combinations as prescribed within.

Hence my point.

[MIKE]

^ Concur.

[HGjunkie]

^ Concur.

Thank you.

[Hawk200]

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Imagine that, National Headquarters handing out illegal uniform stuff.

I've got issue with the tan ones that cadets keep wearing. And I always get the response,"Well, they gave it to me!"

They always get quiet when I ask them if they were told they could wear it with a uniform.

[HGjunkie]

Is the back of the shirt even allowed in the regs?

Upon further reading of the regs,
NO.

Cadet –
I highly recommend that you do some research before you yell at an officer.

The squadron patch on the front is less than 5".  Wing Commander approved.  Should I forward your statement to him?

1)I wasn't yelling at you. It was a BOLD statment, and simply put, you took it the wrong way.
Read my post 4 posts up, I believe that is research.

2)Since I dont live in AR wing, I dont know what that has to do with anything. and if he DID approve the shirt while knowing the back of the shirt was like that, Then he allowed you to break Regs. Unless there's a wing supplement we should know about.

[High Speed Low Drag]

^ just because you wore a t-shirt doesn't make them approved for wear under the uniform.



Approved or no for the uniform, the Hap Arnold insignia on the right appears to be incorrectly scaled.

The CAP logo is about 1/3 too big.

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Imagine that, National Headquarters handing out illegal uniform stuff.

Where did you ever read they were specified as for being under the uniform?  They were just t-shirts to market DDR, not specifically a uniform item.

The symbol you show in your post is not the symbol depicted in Figure 4 - HOWEVER the regs say that any shield or patch may be placed in the configuration.  The artwork you show has the same porportional configuration as the artwork on the T-shirt - which is of different porportion to that as shown in 900-2.  Technically, this could have been done:


Using the AF own clip art, this would be the proper porportion based on emblem replacement:

It looks like the HAP wings became a little distorted when conversion was made to silk screen.  However, it is not out in left field.

[Eclipse]

What is the source for that clipart?  It also appears to be incorrect.

Yes, any shield or patch may be placed there, but the proportions must remain the same.

This...

Looks like the correct proportions, note how much smaller the CAP logo is.

And don't get me started about this abomination,


which actually appears in several official publications.

[High Speed Low Drag]

What is the source for that clipart?  It also appears to be incorrect.

USAF Media Gallery   http://www.af.mil/art/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=5187

[Eclipse]

What is the source for that clipart?  It also appears to be incorrect.

USAF Media Gallery   http://www.af.mil/art/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=5187

Its not in there...

[High Speed Low Drag]

Using the AF own clip art, this would be the proper porportion based on emblem replacement:

[Eclipse]

I see the image you're referring to, I don't see it in the official af.mil library, which is why I think it's home-grown.

Your image is just a link back here to CT.

[RVT]

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Depends.  Is that DDR for the PC or the Wii?

[HGjunkie]

So I guess those DDR shirts National put out are illegal because they have that big DDR logo on the back.

Depends.  Is that DDR for the PC or the Wii?

+3

[a2capt]

larger than normal point size, bold faced, black - not yelling?

If you say so.

As for battling the "he said, she said, they approved it, I have an email that says so (but I'm not going to post it), it's been done that way since cavemen .. "  It's pointless. All you can do is bring it up and hope "they" (whoever) finally realize it, whatever it is, is not in line with the publications.

On the specific example being discussed, when I first saw it I thought it was out of proportion - but is it causing any ill will?

Are these emblems, logos, etc. published anywhere with a scale and standard reference size to use when pairing them up? Is there a style guide that has metrics?

(I have not looked yet, just thought of it while posting .. I guess I'll be looking, too)

[RiverAux]

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape. 

[Eclipse]

Are these emblems, logos, etc. published anywhere with a scale and standard reference size to use when pairing them up? Is there a style guide that has metrics?

If you use the originals and overlay the new insignia over the full-sized one from the af.mil site, you can't go wrong, or at least be
so close as to not be called out.

The trouble is people who can't be bothered to take the time, throw something together in MS paint, and call the pixelated mess "done".

At the least we can assist others in selecting the proper graphics and not using the ones which are clearly incorrect.

[HGjunkie]

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape.

Yeah, IF it is. IF it's not, then that looks bad.

[Eclipse]

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape.

Aiming for "least incorrect" isn't really fitting with a core value that espouses excellence.

[High Speed Low Drag]

This graphic was made by taking the AF art, then superimposing the seal over the MAJCOM shield so that the bottom of the seal was at the point of the bottom of the MAJCOM shield.  Then, the seal was expanded to the outtermost MAJCOM sides and top.  This is the result.  The seal sets no lower than the MAJCOM shield and is the same porportion as the MAJCOM patch.
 


HGJunkie - "Yeah, IF it is. IF it's not, then that looks bad" in response to RiverAux's post

I highly suggest you review the C & C you love to talk about.  You can have a spirited discussion & even disagree without being rude. Being on the internet does not give you the right to be disrespectful.  If you were one of my cadets, we'd be having a face-to-face discussion.

[Eclipse]

This graphic was made by taking the AF art, then superimposing the seal over the MAJCOM shield so that the bottom of the seal was at the point of the bottom of the MAJCOM shield.  Then, the seal was expanded to the outtermost MAJCOM sides and top.  This is the result.  The seal sets no lower than the MAJCOM shield and is the same porportion as the MAJCOM patch.

Yep - I just quickly checked it and its dead on, might be the way the shirt is laying.

Nothing to see here...

[HGjunkie]

HGJunkie - "Yeah, IF it is. IF it's not, then that looks bad" in response to RiverAux's post

I highly suggest you review the C & C you love to talk about.  You can have a spirited discussion & even disagree without being rude. Being on the internet does not give you the right to be disrespectful.  If you were one of my cadets, we'd be having a face-to-face discussion.

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape.

Aiming for "least incorrect" isn't really fitting with a core value that espouses excellence.

It wasn't being rude, it was being straightforward with harsh reality; IF that isn't the worst squadron t-shirt, then that means some squadron out there has some t-shirt with designs all over it that break regs.

[Eclipse]

HGJunkie - "Yeah, IF it is. IF it's not, then that looks bad" in response to RiverAux's post

I highly suggest you review the C & C you love to talk about.  You can have a spirited discussion & even disagree without being rude. Being on the internet does not give you the right to be disrespectful.  If you were one of my cadets, we'd be having a face-to-face discussion.

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape.

Aiming for "least incorrect" isn't really fitting with a core value that espouses excellence.

It wasn't being rude, it was being straightforward with harsh reality; IF that isn't the worst squadron t-shirt, then that means some squadron out there has some t-shirt with designs all over it that break regs.

To whom are you responding?  I never commented on it being "worst".

[HGjunkie]

HGJunkie - "Yeah, IF it is. IF it's not, then that looks bad" in response to RiverAux's post

I highly suggest you review the C & C you love to talk about.  You can have a spirited discussion & even disagree without being rude. Being on the internet does not give you the right to be disrespectful.  If you were one of my cadets, we'd be having a face-to-face discussion.

If that is the most egregious example of a squadron t-shirt that is currently being worn underneath a BDU shirt, I think we're probably in pretty good shape.

Aiming for "least incorrect" isn't really fitting with a core value that espouses excellence.

It wasn't being rude, it was being straightforward with harsh reality; IF that isn't the worst squadron t-shirt, then that means some squadron out there has some t-shirt with designs all over it that break regs.

To whom are you responding?  I never commented on it being "worst".

Okay, my bad. I was too lazy to spell out "least incorrect." sorry for the misunderstanding. I was addressing high speed low drag.