broadcasting warnings from CAP planes

[RiverAux]

CAP News Online posted this link http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news/10325644/detail.html to a story about a CAP blane broadcasting tsunami warnings in Hawaii. 

Anyone ever done this before?  Anyone know how they did this?  Mounting speakers on the struts?  Bullhorns?  How could you effectively do this given the limitations on how low CAP planes can fly? 

[shorning]

Speakers on the struts.  One facing forward, one facing backward (IIRC).

[Eclipse]

No one is going to hear a word you are saying from 1000' AGL, which is the
minimum altitude over urban / populated areas.

[shorning]

As I understand it, this system is designed for the more rural areas of Hawaii.  The more populated areas have other warning options.  This is just one options that State Civil Defense has.

[RiverAux]

Even in rural areas CAP planes have to stay up pretty darn high in the air according to 60-1. 

[shorning]

Even in rural areas CAP planes have to stay up pretty darn high in the air according to 60-1. 

Well, unlike wild speculation, I've stuck to what I actually know about the program.  I haven't said a thing about how the perform  the mission. You asked about the set up and I provided what information I had.  You are welcome to keeping "guessing" how it works all you want.  I probably could find out how it really works, but it doesn't sound like you or Mr. Williams need it.

[RiverAux]

I don't think commenting about how well speakers can be heard from the altitudes CAP is restricted too is all that out of line....

[JohnKachenmeister]

Steve:

I'd like to know how its done.

[Chris Jacobs]

The glider I fly is really quiet.   

But more seriously.  I think if you had a good bullhorn attached you could get the message out.  The police choppers that i have seen broadcasting were a little lower than 1000 feet but they are also considerably louder than a small CAP plane.

[RiverAux]

Don't get me wrong, if this actually works well given our limitations I'm all for trying to talk the states into buying a loudspeaker set up for every plane in the fleet..... It would be a great additional capability.  Consider flying over NO or southern Mississippi after Katrina broadcasting to people about where they could get help...if it works....

[Chris Jacobs]

Local officials could use us for more things than just Emergency services.  Local agencies could use it for broadcasting a multitude of information.  I can't really think of any right now but i bet this group will come up with some ideas.

[RiverAux]

From Honolulu Advertiser:

"The Civil Air Patrol was out there and told surfers, 'You ought to come in,' and they ignored the word," said Honolulu acting Civil Defense chief Bill Balfour. "I don't understand people sometimes. I don't know what goes through their minds."

[mawr]

Local officials could use us for more things than just Emergency services.  Local agencies could use it for broadcasting a multitude of information.  I can't really think of any right now but i bet this group will come up with some ideas.

I can see it now......CAP announcing the daily lotto numbers. 

[Becks]

From Honolulu Advertiser:

"The Civil Air Patrol was out there and told surfers, 'You ought to come in,' and they ignored the word," said Honolulu acting Civil Defense chief Bill Balfour. "I don't understand people sometimes. I don't know what goes through their minds."

"Dude...theres like...a plane yelling at us!"  "Woah....thats radical man! This Tsunami is making some great waves!"

[JohnKachenmeister]

You guys are right, that's why I'd like to know how its done.  What kind of speakers?  How are they mounted?  Can they eaily be installed and moved from plane-to-plane?  Do you broadcast a recorded message, or use a guy with a microphone?

This could be something that local communities could use to warn folks of evacuations, advise of radio frequencies to tune in for emergency instructions, etc.

[Chris Jacobs]

Another great application would be to warn people of wild fires.  I know where i live if they need to warn people the police officer drives around doing it.  If you could relive him to go do other things i bet that would be a good help.  And think about it, most states out west have at least one wild fire every year that we could use this capability.

[lordmonar]

It can be used to communicat with ground team when comm is out, used to pass instrucitons to victums in all sorts of situaitons.

Not a bad idea.

[Lancer]

It took a bit of digging, but I found a company that sells this type of equipment.

http://www.bergsupply.com/LSS/loudspeakers.htm

I'm sure a mounting bracket could be made to easily adapt this to our aircraft.

[bosshawk]

Folks: may I suggest, respectfully, that you contact Hawaii Wing and get the answers to your questions.  Steve Horning has told you all that he apparently knows.  There is a new guy in our Sq who transferred from Hawaii and he has mentioned this capability.  I am sure that Hawaii would be happy to supply you with all of the poop on this capability that you can absorb.

[Chris Jacobs]

I am interested in comming up with as many uses for this as possible.

I like the idea of using it to get information to SAR finds.  I know that if i was a person on the ground lost and saw an air plane over head i would love to hear from them.  if the airplane came over and confirmed that they saw me my spirits would be lifted.  Also you could direct the person to do certain actions to help make rescue safer.  such as telling them to go to a big clearing only a few hundred yards away or something like that.

[Eclipse]

It took a bit of digging, but I found a company that sells this type of equipment.

http://www.bergsupply.com/LSS/loudspeakers.htm

I'm sure a mounting bracket could be made to easily adapt this to our aircraft.

Made?  Yes. 

Approved for the airframe and then subsequently approved for use on CAP aircraft?  Good luck.

[Al Sayre]

WIWAS, I worked on UH46 helo's that had "Loud Hailers"  They are a PITA to keep working, and draw amazing amounts of electrical power.  Sometimes the radios fried due to low voltage when the Loud Hailer was operated at the same time.  While this was 1960-70's era technology, it still takes a lot of power to drive big loud speakers, a lot more than the average C-172/C-182 electrical system can provide without a serious upgrade.

[lordmonar]

WIWAS,

Does this mean "When I Was Al Sayre?

[shorning]

WIWAS,

Does this mean "When I Was Al Sayre?

"When [he] was a 'squid'."  Al and Dave suffered from the same affliction.

[lordmonar]

WIWAS,

Does this mean "When I Was Al Sayre?

"When [he] was a 'squid'."  Al and Dave suffered from the same affliction.

Oh...my condolances...

[SarDragon]

WIWAS,

Does this mean "When I Was Al Sayre?

"When [he] was a 'squid'."  Al and Dave suffered from the same affliction.

Oh...my condolances...

None required. But thanks, anyway. 

[SarDragon]

WIWAS, I worked on UH46 helo's that had "Loud Hailers"  They are a PITA to keep working, and draw amazing amounts of electrical power.  Sometimes the radios fried due to low voltage when the Loud Hailer was operated at the same time.  While this was 1960-70's era technology, it still takes a lot of power to drive big loud speakers, a lot more than the average C-172/C-182 electrical system can provide without a serious upgrade.

Thanks for the reminder. I couldn't remember exactly what I had seen with that equiment.

Looking at the specs of the equipment linked to above, I have to agree. Those units draw 16 to 25 amps, based on which unit you get. That's a lot to lay on the OEM alternator. These units aren't really electrically all that different from one of these high power stereo units the young'uns are putting in their cars. Lotsa volume = lotsa current.

The weight and size can be other issues. The H-46 unit mounted through the side of the airframe, not an option on CAP a/c. In addition, it's not kool sitting right behind one of these units in use!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Guys:

Could somebody who knows who the Wing PAO is in HI please prevail upon him to write a nice article on use of the loudspeakers, including the technical data, and submit it to "Volunteer" magazine?  That way everybody can hear of and (hopefully) emulate the success of the Wing protecting the only state comprised entirely of island in the Pacific Ocean.

[JohnKachenmeister]

IslandS... plural.  That was a typo.

[Lancer]

*BUMP*

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1176173732124340.xml&coll=7

Plane-mounted loudspeaker could help with tsunami warnings

Tuesday, April 10, 2007SARAH HUNSBERGER
In an age of global positioning satellites and computerized command centers, a test communications system from the Civil Air Patrol's Oregon Wing seems remarkably low-tech.

And loud.

"It blew me away," said Oregon Wing Cmdr. Ted Kyle, who was impressed by the clarity of a demonstration this month at the Aurora State Airport.
It's a speaker plane: a compact, lightweight speaker mounted on a single-engine Cessna that can be heard at least a mile away.

The idea of putting a loudspeaker on an airplane is not new. But the concept gained new attention in Oregon because of better speaker technology, a nationwide emphasis on homeland security, and a greater concern over tsunami danger, highlighted by the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.

High-profile rescue operations such as the aerial search last year for James Kim and his family in southern Oregon also have motivated searchers to keep looking for new tools.

The speaker system has the potential to give the volunteer Civil Air Patrol a flexible and possibly life-saving tool in its aerial searches and homeland security missions, Kyle said. Applications could range from issuing natural disaster warnings when other communications fail to coaxing forth a lost child with a recording of Mom and Dad's voices.

The Civil Air Patrol has rarely used loudspeakers on planes because really, really loud aerial announcements often come out sounding muddled, said Scott Bakker, who commands the Oregon Wing's 105th Squadron based at Brookings on the southern Oregon coast.

Bakker, who has been the driving force behind testing the airborne speaker because of his concern about tsunamis, found a new type of speaker that offers better clarity and audibility.

At about $9,500 per set, the speakers are louder than a jet engine from a meter away and would cause you to go deaf if you were standing right in front of one, said Michael Grady, vice president of Power Sonix, the West Virginia company that makes the speakers. They're usually used on police helicopters.

Hawaii is the only place where the Civil Air Patrol regularly uses plane-mounted speakers, but their success is mixed. The speakers tested in Oregon are thought to be clearer and more audible than others in use.

Tests conducted at the Oregon coast near Brookings and at the Aurora airport south of Portland broadcast announcements from a plane flying at about 1,000 feet. Listeners and video cameras on the ground gauged audibility as the plane flew over.

A siren warning was audible from more than a mile away, and listeners understood the "This is a test" announcement clearly as the plane got a little closer, Bakker said. Even some people inside campers on the beach could hear it from a half-mile away or more, he said.

Because the volunteer organization is funded largely through donations, the group would have to come up with a source of money if it decides to make the speakers a permanent part of its fleet, Kyle said.

Bakker hopes the state might help cover the cost.

Sarah Hunsberger: 503-294-5922; shunsberger@news.oregonian.com

[Dustoff]

National Public Radio piece

Broadcast yesterday (10APR)

Link on the page to a video clip of a demo.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9501416

Jim

[NIN]

Its amazing what you can hear from above... I'm talking human voices from 12,000 ft...

[Dragoon]

I just hope no one BSing in the cockpit happens to leave the loudspeaker on.....


......or perhaps some young pilot up for some solo time passes over a beach and decides to try the 'ol Mr. Microphone routine, "Hey Babe!  We'll be back to pick you up later!"   

[alice]

OK.... OWRG's test of a new PA system: $9.5k from Power Sonix.... Anyone on this forum with electrical engineering skills want to review their products for us?  The NPR radio piece said it has some new technology.  Exactly what is that?

http://www.powersonix.com/Pages/pageA.html

Anyone know if a request has been sent up the CAP food chain to the official ops and/or strategetic gurus to decide if all CAP wings should get this capability?

[Al Sayre]

Their spec sheets are a little short on technical information, but since they appear to be powered by their own battery packs, I don't see a big problem with mounting and using them from an electrical standpoint.

[SarDragon]

Well, the units weigh anywhere from 14 to 47 pounds, and since the battery is listed as an accessory, that will add another 40 pounds or so. Between the weight addition, and the external drag penalty, I'm guessing this might not be a C-172 item.

[Al Sayre]

I'd actually be more concerned with the drag penalty than the weight.  I'm assuming that you'd only put two people max in the a/c when using it operationally, and you could always leave the tanks a little light.  I usually plan for about 8gph in a 172, so that only shortens my range by about an hour (6lb/gal*8gal =48 lbs) unless I have a really big observer.