CAP Uniforms & Army Awards

Started by RiverAux, November 14, 2006, 01:22:20 AM

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RiverAux

I don't have the references handy but looked this up in the regs for a discussion over on CAPortal recently .... CAP has one reg which says CAP members can only wear awards given by the military services if they earned them while in that service while another CAP reg says it is okay to wear any military award that you have earned (but doesn't specify it had to have been while in that military service).  A contradiction that probably should be clarified. 

MIKE

^ See also: AFI 36-2903 and the USAF rules for wear of such awards.

Don't take this wrong though... I've got nothing against the awards being awarded IAW Army policy.
Mike Johnston

Pylon

Quote from: RiverAux on November 14, 2006, 01:22:20 AM
I don't have the references handy but looked this up in the regs for a discussion over on CAPortal recently .... CAP has one reg which says CAP members can only wear awards given by the military services if they earned them while in that service while another CAP reg says it is okay to wear any military award that you have earned (but doesn't specify it had to have been while in that military service).  A contradiction that probably should be clarified. 

It's already been discussed at length before, not here, but on another discussion board.  The consensus, I recall, was that a CAP regulation does actually prohibit CAP members from wearing military awards that were awarded outside the auspices of service in the Armed Forces.

That means those CAP members awarded the Air Medal in WWII?  Rip 'em off, not authorized.  

Been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?  CAP doesn't like that either -- National says no way - even in the Knowledgebase.  Can't wear it.

Yeager Award ribbon for an online, open-book quiz?  Sure.  You can wear that.   ::)

Me thinks we've been getting ahead of ourselves and not updating our regulations to be a bit more logical, with it, and coherent.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

RiverAux

okay, okay, I'll give the references:
This is from CAPM 39-1 and says it would be ok for these folks to wear the Army awards:
Quote5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.
See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

However, CAPR 39-3 Section 3b seems to say you can only wear the awards you earned while in the military:
Quoteb. Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. (Foreign decorations, ribbons, badges, etc., awarded in writing to a member not in the Armed Forces of the United States may also be worn if approved by National Headquarters.)

In my opinion since our uniform manual says it is okay to wear on the uniform I take that as definitive even though the awards manual says different. 

The only consensus about this on CAPortal when I brought it up was that I should get a life and should stop worrying about small contradictions in CAP regulations....I, of course, beg to differ.

MIKE

Quote from: AFI36-2903 2 AUGUST 2006Figure 4.1. NOTES: 3. A few of the decorations awarded by federal agencies are: Medal of Merit, National Security
Medal, Presidential Medal of Freedom, Medal of Freedom, Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals,
NASA Distinguished Service Medal, Public Health Service Decorations (Distinguished Service
Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Commendation Medal); US Maritime Service Decorations
(Distinguished Service Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Mariner's Medal). Do not
wear these decorations unless you wear US military decorations and service medals. If you wear
more than one, arrange them in the order of acceptance. If you wear two or more from the same
agency, that agency decides the precedence. Ribbons must be the same size as Air Force ribbons.
Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Emphasis added.
Mike Johnston

lordmonar

Quote from: MIKE on November 14, 2006, 02:02:02 AM
Quote from: AFI36-2903 2 AUGUST 2006Figure 4.1. NOTES: 3. A few of the decorations awarded by federal agencies are: Medal of Merit, National Security
Medal, Presidential Medal of Freedom, Medal of Freedom, Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals,
NASA Distinguished Service Medal, Public Health Service Decorations (Distinguished Service
Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Commendation Medal); US Maritime Service Decorations
(Distinguished Service Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Mariner's Medal). Do not
wear these decorations unless you wear US military decorations and service medals. If you wear
more than one, arrange them in the order of acceptance. If you wear two or more from the same
agency, that agency decides the precedence. Ribbons must be the same size as Air Force ribbons.
Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Emphasis added.

That line was added to denote whether you earned them before or after you joined the military.

By that reasoning....CAP members who earn awards while CAP members would be able to wear federal and military medals on their CAP unifroms.  Remember that the AFI is addressing USAF personnel earning non USAF medals.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Major_Chuck

Quote from: Pylon on November 14, 2006, 01:29:21 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 14, 2006, 01:22:20 AM
I don't have the references handy but looked this up in the regs for a discussion over on CAPortal recently .... CAP has one reg which says CAP members can only wear awards given by the military services if they earned them while in that service while another CAP reg says it is okay to wear any military award that you have earned (but doesn't specify it had to have been while in that military service).  A contradiction that probably should be clarified. 

It's already been discussed at length before, not here, but on another discussion board.  The consensus, I recall, was that a CAP regulation does actually prohibit CAP members from wearing military awards that were awarded outside the auspices of service in the Armed Forces.

That means those CAP members awarded the Air Medal in WWII?  Rip 'em off, not authorized.  

Been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?  CAP doesn't like that either -- National says no way - even in the Knowledgebase.  Can't wear it.

Yeager Award ribbon for an online, open-book quiz?  Sure.  You can wear that.   ::)

Me thinks we've been getting ahead of ourselves and not updating our regulations to be a bit more logical, with it, and coherent.

Update our regulations! you must be one of those troublemakers for sure.

-Chuck
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

O-Rex

Quote from: RiverAux on November 14, 2006, 01:22:20 AM
I don't have the references handy but looked this up in the regs for a discussion over on CAPortal recently .... CAP has one reg which says CAP members can only wear awards given by the military services if they earned them while in that service while another CAP reg says it is okay to wear any military award that you have earned (but doesn't specify it had to have been while in that military service).  A contradiction that probably should be clarified. 

The medals in question are specifically for Civilians.

RiverAux

There are quite a few "real" military awards that can also be earned by civilians.  I think the AF has about half a dozen or more.


davedove

Quote from: O-Rex on November 14, 2006, 03:22:43 AM
The medals in question are specifically for Civilians.

I was going to mention that myself.  These awards are Army awards for civilian service, not military service.  If they were awarded while the individual was in the military, they could be worn.  But, if they were awarded while the individual was a civilian, as these were, they cannot be worn.  I think that's pretty strange, considering it's the same award.  I believe this comes straight from the USAF regs.

Note that the Air Force has similar civilian medals.  If you earn them as a civilian, you can't wear them on the CAP uniform.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

lordmonar

Quote from: davedove on November 14, 2006, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on November 14, 2006, 03:22:43 AM
The medals in question are specifically for Civilians.

I was going to mention that myself.  These awards are Army awards for civilian service, not military service.  If they were awarded while the individual was in the military, they could be worn.  But, if they were awarded while the individual was a civilian, as these were, they cannot be worn.  I think that's pretty strange, considering it's the same award.  I believe this comes straight from the USAF regs.

Note that the Air Force has similar civilian medals.  If you earn them as a civilian, you can't wear them on the CAP uniform.

Except that the National CC has approved them for wear!  It's good to be the king!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

davedove

Quote from: lordmonar on November 14, 2006, 02:16:06 PM
Except that the National CC has approved them for wear!  It's good to be the king!

Yes, that's true, I was thinking of the base regs.  Obviously a supplement will have to be done.  I can even agree with the approval, since the awards were specifically for CAP activities.

Does the Air Force have to approve what awards may be worn on the AF style uniforms?  If so, that could be a sticking point.

David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Hawk200

Quote from: davedove on November 14, 2006, 04:02:43 PM
Does the Air Force have to approve what awards may be worn on the AF style uniforms?  If so, that could be a sticking point.

That's actually an interesting question. If we make a new dec for CAP, does the AF have to approve it for wear on the Air Force variant uniform?

Then again, considering the new "pre solo" wings, maybe not. If you were Air Force brass, would you have approved those wings?

lordmonar

Quote from: davedove on November 14, 2006, 04:02:43 PM
Does the Air Force have to approve what awards may be worn on the AF style uniforms?  If so, that could be a sticking point.

They alread have.  See the excerpt from AFI 36-2903 below.  CAPM 39-1 tells us to follow USAF guidance on wearing other services medals....ergo....this should already be a done deal.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JohnKachenmeister

The wording of 39-3 is confusing.

It appears that only foreign decorations awarded to members while NOT in the armed forces requires National approval.

For US decorations, they can be worn if awarded to "A member" for "Service in one of the armed forces." 

So, if a CAP member performs service at the request of, or on behalf of, the US Army, and the Army awards that member a medal, it can be worn.  This is apparently the case in Iowa.

But... If you are escorting IACE cadets to the Glorious Country of Kazacstan, and you perform a deed worthy of a decoration, you can only wear the Kazacstan Medal For Not Screwing Up Too Bad with the approval of National HQ CAP.

Unless you are concurrently a member of the US Armed Forces, or the deed was performed during a solar eclipse and involves farm animals.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

John K, please refer to my earlier post which lays out the contradictory instructions on this issue in 2 different CAP regulations....

JohnKachenmeister

River:

I read them.  The way I interpret 39-3, however, is not as contradictory as it sounds at first, except for foreign awards.

It looks like 39-1 authorizes ALL military awards, including foreign awards.

But 39-3 seems to allow military awards earned after CAP membership, for service with a branch of the armed forces.  It forbids foreign awards without NHQ approval.

The AFI cited would forbid, for example, awards by a state government, and by extension, state awards would not be authorized on the CAP uniform
Another former CAP officer

flapsUP

You're all missing the point.  Instead of talking about regulations why isn't anyone talking about why these are the first medals since WWII.  What's wrong here. Why has it taken over 60 years for the armed services to recognize our value?  What about the AF.  Why doesn't the AF grant us awards? Aren't we good enough?  Katrina? The Coast Guard Aux received unit citations why didn't we?

The IAWG was able to do something to get recognized, what about the rest of us?  What did they do that we haven't done or can't do?  Why hasn't any other Wing done this?

We can't even proceed to discuss these critical questions as long as we are concerned about whether the AF or CAP regs allow us to wear them  It's irrelevant, we don't have them and if we continue to lack vision we'll never get them.



NEBoom

Quote from: flapsUP on November 15, 2006, 03:11:32 AM
You're all missing the point.  Instead of talking about regulations why isn't anyone talking about why these are the first medals since WWII.  What's wrong here. Why has it taken over 60 years for the armed services to recognize our value?  What about the AF.  Why doesn't the AF grant us awards? Aren't we good enough?  Katrina? The Coast Guard Aux received unit citations why didn't we?

The IAWG was able to do something to get recognized, what about the rest of us?  What did they do that we haven't done or can't do?  Why hasn't any other Wing done this?

We can't even proceed to discuss these critical questions as long as we are concerned about whether the AF or CAP regs allow us to wear them  It's irrelevant, we don't have them and if we continue to lack vision we'll never get them.




Well said.  Let's not overlook the significance of this achievement.  They've done some truly groundbreaking work in Iowa Wing, and I'm so happy that they're getting this excellent recognition for it.

I'm kind of surprised so many people want to debate about decorations on the uniform vs. discussing what's been achieved in Iowa.  If you haven't yet taken a look at what they've done there, you should!
Lt Col Dan Kirwan, CAP
Nebraska Wing

DNall

Quote from: NEBoom on November 15, 2006, 03:35:51 AM
Quote from: flapsUP on November 15, 2006, 03:11:32 AM
You're all missing the point.  Instead of talking about regulations why isn't anyone talking about why these are the first medals since WWII.  What's wrong here. Why has it taken over 60 years for the armed services to recognize our value?  What about the AF.  Why doesn't the AF grant us awards? Aren't we good enough?  Katrina? The Coast Guard Aux received unit citations why didn't we?

The IAWG was able to do something to get recognized, what about the rest of us?  What did they do that we haven't done or can't do?  Why hasn't any other Wing done this?

We can't even proceed to discuss these critical questions as long as we are concerned about whether the AF or CAP regs allow us to wear them  It's irrelevant, we don't have them and if we continue to lack vision we'll never get them.

Well said.  Let's not overlook the significance of this achievement.  They've done some truly groundbreaking work in Iowa Wing, and I'm so happy that they're getting this excellent recognition for it.

I'm kind of surprised so many people want to debate about decorations on the uniform vs. discussing what's been achieved in Iowa.  If you haven't yet taken a look at what they've done there, you should!
I don't disagree, but this is in the uniform thread, which indicates the intent was to discuss the wear of the decorations, not the achieving of them, which is outstanding & congrats to all involved. I don't believe current regs allow for wear of these awards, but I'd expect that to change. I'd also like to bump the AF about those dozen or so awardable to civilians, and maybe even change a few other appropriate ones to be awardable to CAP also.