Encampment Availability

[Major Carrales]

And I have pitched an idea to the region and wing DCPs that NHQ - when processing the cadet's initial membership package - would "order" the cadet to encampment the following summer.  In essence, they would receive a letter from Gen Courter to the effect of:

"Greetings.  You have taken the first step along a path to incredible learning and adventure.  Congratulations!  You are hereby ordered to attend (*Your Wings*) encampment to be held (*date*) at (*location*) for advanced leadership training.  Failure to attend encampment will result in loss of eligibility for the coveted Billy Mitchell Award and cadet officer status.   If you are unable to attend your scheduled encampment, you must make alternative arrangements to attend another one.  Contact your squadron commander for furher information."

The theory is to create an expectation of encampment attendence during the first year, and impose an "opt-out" posture instead of the current "opt-in" methodology.

Like many of my ideas, this has not been met with wild enthusiasm.

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

[a2capt]

Did the ADA threat thread merge here?

Sounds like the Hock Store (thread) is done ..

[Major Carrales]

Did the ADA threat thread merge here?

Sounds like the Hock Store (thread) is done ..

Naw, the topic is still the same but has taken a tangent towards what to do with the Vangaurd "kick-back."

[PA Guy]

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

I'm also in a large wing.  Through the use of scholarships no cadet has ever been denied encampment due to cost.  Even if you have a group encampment how will that reduce costs other than perhaps transportation? I seriously doubt the quality of a wing wide encampment can be consistently produced on the group level. Besides how many groups have the ability, facilities and personnel to run an annual encampment? How many groups are in TXWG? Do you really think they would all be the same even with "solid standards"?

[BillB]

Last time I looked, Type B encampments were still authorized. Group or area encampments often can be held as YMCA, national Guard or even AF Bases for smaller groups, rather than multo humdred encampments. The regulation spells out what is requirered for a Type A or Type B encampment. so they are standardized. The type B encampment used to cost less since it was a weekend activity thus housing costs were lower. I never saw how since it was a multi weekend activity, but it ended up cheaper.

[Major Carrales]

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

I'm also in a large wing.  Through the use of scholarships no cadet has ever been denied encampment due to cost.  Even if you have a group encampment how will that reduce costs other than perhaps transportation? I seriously doubt the quality of a wing wide encampment can be consistently produced on the group level. Besides how many groups have the ability, facilities and personnel to run an annual encampment? How many groups are in TXWG? Do you really think they would all be the same even with "solid standards"?

There are 5 Groups in the Texas Wing each larger than New England, I would say that the standards of any encampment for a Group larger than some States and Commonwealths (in other words Wings) could pull it off.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The IL Spring Encampment is sometimes referred to as being "hosted by Group 22". Not quite the same as there are always folks from all over, but still. It's also a Type B activity as it's held on two weekends at Great Lakes Naval.

[PA Guy]

It's not about geographic size.  I did a stint as a dep group commander for a group that covered  about 20k sq miles,, larger than several states, and we were hard pressed to pull off one FTX/yr.  Not many groups have the personnel, resources and dedication to produce a consistent product year after yr. after yr.....  Heck some wings can't do it.

[Major Carrales]

It's not about geographic size.  I did a stint as a dep group commander for a group that covered  about 20k sq miles,, larger than several states, and we were hard pressed to pull off one FTX/yr.  Not many groups have the personnel, resources and dedication to produce a consistent product year after yr. after yr.....  Heck some wings can't do it.

And...?  Is that any reason why it should not be tried?  Is that any reason why it could not be meaningful?

I just think that it is unreasonable to ask cadets to travel 500 miles and pay near or over $200 to do an encampment which might have been able to have been more locally as part of a requirement.

[lordmonar]

Type A?  Type B?  Back in the 80's we had those...but not anymore.

There are encampments.....period.  They can be held over one week or three week ends.  No differences in types anymore.

[Spike]

^ So did a Cadet wear Class C's to a type A and Class A's to a type B, or did they wear Class B's to a type A, and Class C's to a type B??

It was nice when many Wings actually offered Encampments at various times during the year.  Today in competition between each other, Wings hold Encampments during the same week as neighboring Wings.

That strikes me as "underhanded and corrupt". 

[PA Guy]

The issue has never been not trying it because the regs certainly allow you to do that.  The issue is being able to produce a consistent product yr after yr that equals the TXWG encampment.  If you feel your group can pull it off then give it a shot.  Good encampments aren't as easy to pull off as many people think.

[Ned]

The most difficult thing to trying to round up enough qualified and experienced seniors to do the job.  Most wings don't have enough to do one encampment well, let alone several.

In terms of seniors, there really is economy of scale.

It has also been my experience that cadets (and parents) in large wings are already used to driving several hundred miles for activities.  Between corporate vehicles and car-pooling 'rents, it seems to work out.

YMMV.

[Fubar]

It was nice when many Wings actually offered Encampments at various times during the year.  Today in competition between each other, Wings hold Encampments during the same week as neighboring Wings.

I'm surprised the Wing Kings don't nip that competition by simply denying out-of-state participation requests.

[SarDragon]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

[Major Carrales]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

I agree...many people here fail to take into account the realities of distance and personal fiance.  Our cadet program offers opportunities to cadets...many of whom are poor or in families with poor situations.  Some of which will never be able to take full benefit of what CAP offers...you know, like the benefits that associate with the Mitchell Award that would greatly improve their station in life if they select military service, because an encampment is 1) over $200...which would be a half of a single parent's monthly check or 2) 800 miles away across a state when the family is not in good with an automobile.

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

There have to be alternatives offered, if not...what the heck are we selling to the Middle School Initives and cadets in poor areas?  Would you have me tell some cadet that there is "no brass ring" for them because they are too poor, have no connections among the rich, cannot solicit for funds from the community or that the only activities of importance happen on the other side of the State?

[tdepp]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

I agree...many people here fail to take into account the realities of distance and personal fiance.  Our cadet program offers opportunities to cadets...many of whom are poor or in families with poor situations.  Some of which will never be able to take full benefit of what CAP offers...you know, like the benefits that associate with the Mitchell Award that would greatly improve their station in life if they select military service, because an encampment is 1) over $200...which would be a half of a single parent's monthly check or 2) 800 miles away across a state when the family is not in good with an automobile.

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

There have to be alternatives offered, if not...what the heck are we selling to the Middle School Initives and cadets in poor areas?  Would you have me tell some cadet that there is "no brass ring" for them because they are too poor, have no connections among the rich, cannot solicit for funds from the community or that the only activities of importance happen on the other side of the State?

Don't mess with Texas! 

[PA Guy]

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

Then stop talking about it and make it happen.

[Major Carrales]

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

Then stop talking about it and make it happen.

Don't you think I've tried?  Don't you think others have expressed the same?  We run into the same arguments some of you have made on this thread.  Unless there is a change in policy that would allow for smaller intense encampments...it is fruitless.

[Pylon]

Don't you think I've tried?  Don't you think others have expressed the same?  We run into the same arguments some of you have made on this thread.  Unless there is a change in policy that would allow for smaller intense encampments...it is fruitless.

There's no policy on the minimum size of an encampment.  Unless by "smaller intense" you mean shorter in which case I'd have to vehemently disagree.  In the eight or so encampments I've been apart of, the training schedule is already pretty intense and a lot is crammed into the length of a regular encampment.  It's a constant struggle for the training staff to shuffle time, ensure requirements are all met, resolve unexpected but inevitable scheduling problems, and get everybody out the door with encampment credit.   It's already an "intense" training regimen at its full length.   I personally don't think you could maintain a quality product by shortening encampment "contact hours" by any significant length.
Edited to add: I just realized this was a thread derail in the Hock Shop thread.  Stand by for topic split...