http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584241,00.html?test=latestnews
Someones been looking at our designs.
^ More likely, someone has been selling our designs.
Just the same stuff, different decade. That is why the US is and always has been 10 to 15 years ahead of everyone else in Aerospace Science. (that secret stuff, no one is supposed to know about).
It looks like an Su-27 cockpit bolted onto an F-22 fuselage. By looking at the high angle photos, you can tell that the materials aren't of the same standard of ours. The article noted that the engines are nothing new - might not be vectored thrust. Note the shiney surfaces - not composite.
The Russian aviation industry has seen better days.
Look closely.
That's Langley's tail code. Unless the Russians are using our markings, thats an F-22. Me thinks the photo editor got confused. You think they're flight testing a Sukhoi where there are palm trees?
That is an F22. You need to look at the slideshow. C'mon kid! >:D
QuoteThis 2007 image shows what is thought to be the Sukhoi T-50 fighter jet. Russia hopes the jet can challenge the U.S. F-22 Raptor.
QuoteDevelopment of the so-called fifth-generation fighter has been veiled in secrecy and no images of it had been released before the maiden flight.
Oh FOX...Fair and Balanced able to contradict itself within it's own self!
They are flying at least one Su-47, which is a super-maneuverable forward-swept wing design. For sure, they are working on advanced fighter designs, and they won't be shy about selling them to countries we don't get along with so well (except maybe China). Independent of this article, we do indeed have things to be worried about.
While similar, they have some major noticeable differences. Take a look at a pic of an F22 and compare. The intakes are different sizes and angles, as well as the engines being different distances apart. From a side view it also becomes very apparent that the cockpits are shaped different.
Russia's arms industry is in a shambles, they are buying French Naval ships, and cannot maintain what they have. Remember the old days the USSR was planning on using overwhelming numbers of aircraft to counter our technology edge. Yet don't count them out because lest we forget North Vietnam Air Space was hell for hundreds of our aircraft that got shot down by USSR/Russian hardware.
Stealth is not Stealth when new radar is invented that can find it and the B-2 and F117s where on British Radar screens as far back as the first Gulf war. It also seems Stealth technology has issues with water and the heat plume is still. . . HOT, real Hot, [darn] Hot.
Sidewinder fodder???
Simple fact of the matter is Beloved Leader Chairman MaObama canceled the F-22. Only 3 or so more planes will be finished instead of the full run. He has now canceled the Orion/Constellation program. Our technological edge is at risk.
If you read the articles on the Russian jet, it is being built with the assistance of India. This tells me that technology is being developed quickly by those who 5-10 years ago did not have the ability to do so. They are learning by leaps and bounds.
Schools in the US are not developing and graduating engineers as they did in the past. We are graduating reality star wanna be's. Public schools are pushing out students that are so PC, and have so little math and science it is a crime.
It was just announced at the Lockheed facility I use to work at (yesterday) some of the folks that are taking voluntary layoff. Due to the presidential helicopter cancellation 800 lost their job, due to other defense funding issues another 1600 are losing their jobs (names will be announced in April)...right now they asked for volunteers... It is a high percentage of those with 30+ years of EW experience, who see the changes and decided to bail while they cold, leaving a very low number with EW experience. It is going to take years to redevelop that brain trust and will be that much higher in difficulty due to the fewer numbers of American born engineering graduates. This loss of experience is going to slow down our technological ability.
Binghamton (NY) University which has a real good engineering program, is graduating more Chinese, Indian and Eastern European engineers than American born!
Another thing to consider as Beloved leader guts the military ala Carter, companies will do what they have to do to survive. They will switch to a totally unrelated product/technology, leaving a large hole again.
Yeah Carter 2.0.. joyful.
Gates killed the F-22. He was going to do it under the bush administration. There was only ever a slight hope that President Obama would revive the program.
I want the F-22 but its dead and gone, and nobody seems to care except USAF. We still got some F-22's though, which is more that any other country.
Quote from: Pumbaa on January 30, 2010, 12:11:36 PM
Simple fact of the matter is Beloved Leader Chairman MaObama canceled the F-22. Only 3 or so more planes will be finished instead of the full run. He has now canceled the Orion/Constellation program. Our technological edge is at risk.
If you read the articles on the Russian jet, it is being built with the assistance of India. This tells me that technology is being developed quickly by those who 5-10 years ago did not have the ability to do so. They are learning by leaps and bounds.
Schools in the US are not developing and graduating engineers as they did in the past. We are graduating reality star wanna be's. Public schools are pushing out students that are so PC, and have so little math and science it is a crime.
It was just announced at the Lockheed facility I use to work at (yesterday) some of the folks that are taking voluntary layoff. Due to the presidential helicopter cancellation 800 lost their job, due to other defense funding issues another 1600 are losing their jobs (names will be announced in April)...right now they asked for volunteers... It is a high percentage of those with 30+ years of EW experience, who see the changes and decided to bail while they cold, leaving a very low number with EW experience. It is going to take years to redevelop that brain trust and will be that much higher in difficulty due to the fewer numbers of American born engineering graduates. This loss of experience is going to slow down our technological ability.
Binghamton (NY) University which has a real good engineering program, is graduating more Chinese, Indian and Eastern European engineers than American born!
Another thing to consider as Beloved leader guts the military ala Carter, companies will do what they have to do to survive. They will switch to a totally unrelated product/technology, leaving a large hole again.
Yeah Carter 2.0.. joyful.
So it's okay for a uniformed member of the Air Force Auxiliary to refer to the Commander and Chief of US Forces as "Chairman Obama" now? Thanks for clearing up that important protocol question!
I hate to let some of you older folks in on the secret, but my generation didn't create this world. If you want to figure out who's to blame for the 'Political Correctness (what does that have to do with building fighter planes again?) and the lack of a viable public education system (Oh! The free market is supposed to determine who gets a good education, right? Public education is socialism! I get it now), or the fact that the US is graduating less and less science students each year (maybe that little ten year multi trillion dollar jaunt in the desert had something to do with a lack of money to it.....), look at yourselves in the mirror. You created this world; we have to pick up the pieces.
I go to Binghamton's much cooler sister school, Stony Brook, and I can tell you that the reason why there's so many foreign students in hard and soft sciences is that they want it more. However, many of them also love America for the chance they've been blessed with, and plan on repaying it back (can't trust those dirty oversea types through, right?)
The US military and Federal government would have more money available for R&D if there hadn't been a ten year long police action in Iraq. It's that simple. We have to live with the consequences of the previous Presidents actions for a long time now (more than likely, even longer then we should since the Republicans sole platform now is 'BLOCK ALL PROGRESS')
Wow. This thread took a dump because someone mislabled one of 5 photos? Actually, its an AP story on the Fox website.
That's Beloved Leader Chairman MaObama... big difference.
And most of those "dirty oversea types" as you put it cannot work on U.S. classified military programs. Most although appreciating the education go back home to use that education. Such as those Indians helping Russia build their stealth.
Interesting that the U.S. students.. 'don't want it."
Quote from: Pumbaa on January 30, 2010, 05:57:16 PM
That's Beloved Leader Chairman MaObama... big difference.
And most of those "dirty oversea types" as you put it cannot work on U.S. classified military programs. Most although appreciating the education go back home to use that education. Such as those Indians helping Russia build their stealth.
Interesting that the U.S. students.. 'don't want it."
We should not refer to the president as a Chairman................ You dont need to express your political views here. There is a place and time for it(not on CAP TALK).
The photo is NOT an F-22..
Look again. Open up two windows.
This is the F-22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-22_bomb.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-22_bomb.jpg)
This is the AP Story photo: http://www.foxnews.com/images/596144/3_21_450plane.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/images/596144/3_21_450plane.jpg)
Looks like a new SU-27 design to me. Standard nose pitot ADC. Longer fuselage aspect than the F-22. And so on...
Who's in uniform? I posted that while sitting in my boxers!
Sorry Strick... I will refer to him as just Beloved Leader. ;)
So I lose my right to be critical of the president when I am NOT in uniform?
Now back on topic....
Regardless if the photos are correct or not, the Russians are trying to gain back their technological/ numerical products lost after the fall of the USSR. In this case with the help of India. Most likely with the education of said nationals in the US. The fact they are moving in this direction should be a concern.
Regardless if the photos are correct or not, the Russians are trying to gain back their technological/ numerical products lost after the fall of the USSR. In this case with the help of India. Most likely with the education of said nationals in the US. The fact they are moving in this direction should be a concern.
[/quote]
+ 1 :clap:
Quote from: Strick on January 30, 2010, 07:06:25 PMWe should not refer to the president as a Chairman................ You dont need to express your political views here. There is a place and time for it(not on CAP TALK).
I never have a problem with a calm, reasoned discussion on administration policy. (Differences of opinion contribute to better critical thinking, no?)
Tossing around politically charged personal attacks like "Beloved Leader Chairman MaObama" doesn't do anything for the discussion, it just incites flamewars.
Quote from: desertengineer1 on January 30, 2010, 07:53:31 PM
The photo is NOT an F-22..
Look again. Open up two windows.
This is the F-22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-22_bomb.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-22_bomb.jpg)
This is the AP Story photo: http://www.foxnews.com/images/596144/3_21_450plane.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/images/596144/3_21_450plane.jpg)
Looks like a new SU-27 design to me. Standard nose pitot ADC. Longer fuselage aspect than the F-22. And so on...
The photo with the palm trees in the bottom of the photo is an F-22. The other 4 are of the Russian thing-a-magigger...
Quote from: JThemann on January 30, 2010, 04:40:31 PM
So it's okay for a uniformed member of the Air Force Auxiliary to refer to the Commander and Chief of US Forces as "Chairman Obama" now?
A "Uniformed member of the Air Force Auxiliary" still equals "civilian" with full civil rights. A member of the military is not a civilian and has restricted civil rights - in or out of uniform. That still doesn't excuse being disrespectful to the elected leader of our country. But it is his right....
Quote from: Pumbaa on January 30, 2010, 08:08:23 PM
Who's in uniform? I posted that while sitting in my boxers!
Sorry Strick... I will refer to him as just Beloved Leader. ;)
So I lose my right to be critical of the president when I am NOT in uniform?
Now back on topic....
Regardless if the photos are correct or not, the Russians are trying to gain back their technological/ numerical products lost after the fall of the USSR. In this case with the help of India. Most likely with the education of said nationals in the US. The fact they are moving in this direction should be a concern.
Pumbaaa.. ahhhh nevermind. I wont even go there with you here on CapTalk. Like was said earlier. ther eis a place for that type of discussion and this aint it
Ignoring the political discussion the F-22 program is not killed. It was shortened. I think it was only shortened by a dozen airframes. We will still have a few hundred of these things when production is finished.
Quote from: davidsinn on January 30, 2010, 11:39:34 PM
Ignoring the political discussion the F-22 program is not killed. It was shortened. I think it was only shortened by a dozen airframes. We will still have a few hundred of these things when production is finished.
At the price tag they come at, if the President allowed it to continue, you'd hear a lot of people in DC saying that he is increasing the deficit! ::)
Going back a few posts, the same applies to the Constellation program. While it pains me, and I think it's more important to fund the space program compared to Disney Land profits, if the President gave the money to NASA, you'd hear the Republican party talk about how the President's head is in the clouds.
It scares the heck out of me when THE soviets, I mean the russians start selling these things to IRAN, NORTH KOREA, CHINA AND OUR FIREND HUGO DOWN SOUTH.
When I was twelve, I helped my daddy build a bomb shelter in our basement because some fool parked a dozen warheads 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Well, this thing could park a coupla hundred warheads off Washington and New York and no one would know anything about it till it was all over.
Head-on, reminds me of YF-23...
The Soviets (er, excuse me, Russian Confederation) are no slouches.
As for imitation, it is not only the sincerest form of flattery, it can go some pretty decent way toward suggesting fruitful directions for development. Far from the first time, this imitation in aerospace applications may have superficial similarities, but a lot of what makes our ordnance effective can't be seen on the surface. While our core approaches to effective aircraft has been superficially different, the Russians have employed divergent concepts with considerable success.
We are not the only ones on the planet to have gotten the square peg/round hole challenge right. As the Russians themselves have said in the past, successful solutions to specific universal problems tend to look similar on the outside.
From the TU-144 to the Buran Shuttle, getting it looking similar on the outside is no guarantee that the thing actually works in the end.
However, when Sukhoi is involved, things tend to be pretty nifty.
Back in July of 09, Lockheed Martin reported a hacker that stole plans and blueprints for the F-35 JSF...looks like we know who could have done it
The reports stated that the hacker had used an IP hider such as HideIP but I think they would have used something alot more than just that. The trace went to China but I really doubt that it was someone in China...probably the hacker making it look that way.
But I'm in no way blaming the russians...they are just as advanced as we are so maybe they did actually do this legit.
Oh please. Russia is a third world country with nukes. They're in no way as technologically advanced. Nearly everything they have is a knock-off of what we have already developed, whether from reverse-engineering or by outright stealing. If you look at cities of the old east bloc, you'll see that they're rather modern; until you get up close and you see that they're cheap ticky-tacky. Russia is a paper giant, but a dangerous one.
I don't remember the F-35 being compromised, and we would have been notified internally about it.. the same thing was said about some helo's, but it wound up being public mock-ups 6 years old...
Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said, "I'm not aware of any specific concerns." That's a key phrase. Lockheed Martin--the F-35 superjet's primary contractor--also commented "We actually believe The Wall Street Journal was incorrect in its representation of successful cyber attacks on the F-35 program." And the company's CFO Bruce Tanner added "I've not heard of that, and to our knowledge there's never been any classified information breach."
Government and defense contractor computer networks face a pretty continuous rate of hack attempts. As a result such companies have even more stringent data security protocols in place than normal organizations. They're still not absolutely impervious to hacking, of course, as no such system ever is. So that's why the most highly classified data--critical to the super-secret offensive and defensive capabilities of hardware like the F-35--is typically stored on computers that have an extremely low-tech "air gap firewall". They're not connected to the external Internet in any way whatsoever.
Quote from: Pumbaa on February 23, 2010, 12:59:39 AM
I don't remember the F-35 being compromised, and we would have been notified internally about it.. the same thing was said about some helo's, but it wound up being public mock-ups 6 years old...
Probably talking about this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027491029837401.html
QuoteWASHINGTON -- Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon's $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project -- the Defense Department's costliest weapons program ever -- according to current and former government officials familiar with the attacks.
continued in link above
You are correct in pointing out the WSJ article, but as stated above, the DoD said it was wrong... LM said it was wrong, and if there was an actual public breach, internally we would have been notified, and that notification would have been part of the public record as well.
The text below is from the AFA a few days ago. Cause for concern? You be the judge. The F-35 program is dragging with disturbing revelations regarding the program continuing to appear. 189 Raptors was the number deemed by the geniuses @ DOD and the WH to be adequate (the AF wanted 300+). Two have been lost (so far), a certain number are always in maintenance/training leaving a relative handful to bridge the gap between now and some future time when the F-35 will arrive in sufficient numbers to save the day along with scads of super-UAVs.
Maybe we can buy some of those Indo-Russian F-22skis.
Is It a Game Changer?: The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb believes the Russian PAK FA (prototype flown last month) is just that, citing a new Air Power Australia analysis by Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon. The defense analysts say "available evidence" shows a "mature production PAK FA" could compete with the F-22 in very low observable performance and "will outperform" it "aerodynamically and kinematically." That means, they say, the PAK FA renders all legacy US fighter aircraft and the F-35, upon which the Pentagon has staked the future of US airpower, "strategically irrelevant and non viable after the PAK FA achieves IOC in 2015." Goldfarb posits: "If the Russians had flown the PAK FA nine months ago, you have to think Congress would have rolled the White House to keep the F-22 line open, which it almost did anyway." (Both Goldfarb's article and the APA analysis are worth noting.)