CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: ProdigalJim on October 21, 2013, 10:36:18 PM

Title: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ProdigalJim on October 21, 2013, 10:36:18 PM
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?restructured_cap_nco_corps_to_mirror_air_force_structure_for_progress_promotion&show=news&newsID=17563 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?restructured_cap_nco_corps_to_mirror_air_force_structure_for_progress_promotion&show=news&newsID=17563)

"Until now, CAP's NCO structure allowed only former active-duty NCOs to be a part of the corps, with no upgrade training for promotion within the ranks. The newly approved corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs."

But then...no more details.

Anyone know anything further?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 21, 2013, 10:43:54 PM
I like the general idea of having a true CAP NCO corps with its own requirements, training, professional development, progression and duty assignments, among others. But in order for it to be truly successful, I think the officer corps would also have to be restructured and roles need to be defined. Otherwise, what would be the difference between an NCO and an officer if they can both do the same things?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NIN on October 21, 2013, 10:44:55 PM
Odd that the first I heard of this great announcement was an email from a friend of mine in the ATC across the pond.....
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: vento on October 21, 2013, 11:38:17 PM
... and I first heard about it from Facebook. Link here (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=655341371154821&set=np.214035891.652442449&type=1&theater&notif_t=notify_me)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 21, 2013, 11:43:14 PM
Oh, I expect its what we've been hearing about for years -- some ways for NCOs to get promoted, but nothing addressing the real issue which is what they're actually supposed to be doing for CAP thats unique.  I'd be real surprised if we see anything other than changes to the promotion regulations. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: a2capt on October 21, 2013, 11:51:53 PM
Col. Myrick leaked it at the CAWG Conference earlier this month, too.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: SAREXinNY on October 22, 2013, 12:32:15 AM
I think it's a great idea.  There are a LOT of former/retired NCOs out there that would love to carry over their rank yet still have some type of PD program to follow.  Not everyone wants to be a staff officer or have ambitions of being a commander.  There are a lot of SMs I've met who want to just help out in an admin type role.  I hope this is rolled out properly and has well thought out regs.  I'm intrigued!
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:36:07 AM
Even if the new policy doesn't go as far as some would like, I'm still going to give it a thumbs-up as a good step forward.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 12:53:50 AM
Quote from: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:36:07 AM
Even if the new policy doesn't go as far as some would like, I'm still going to give it a thumbs-up as a good step forward.

To What End?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:59:28 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 12:53:50 AM
Quote from: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:36:07 AM
Even if the new policy doesn't go as far as some would like, I'm still going to give it a thumbs-up as a good step forward.

To What End?
Not knowing what this program is....but maybe it is step one of transforming all the ranks...i.e. make it easier to just be an enlisted puke for the rank and file....and make it harder to be an officer.

It a step in the right direction for those who want to stay enlisted....but would also like to progress...being a SSgt forever is a little boring.  :)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 12:59:39 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AMHow is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

At least in that case both parties have had some military training, and they have a defined lane of authority, purpose and function, not to mention
both have legal weight of authority and responsibility.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ProdigalJim on October 22, 2013, 01:02:03 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1

Indeed.

I can see a really strong role for the new NCOs in the cadet program. In Operations, however, I'm not so sure. We don't have a large force of enlisted to lead, guide and mentor (which seems to me to be one of the major strengths NCOs bring to the table).

A search of my previous posts finds that I am one of those who believes that an overhaul of our officer qualifications is long overdue. But I'm not a fan of the cliquish-ness that could result from rolling out the NCO program without the concurrent officer progression overhaul.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.

That statement beautifully encapsulates why the NCO / Officer paradigm will never function in an all-volunteer
organization.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.

That statement beautifully encapsulates why the NCO / Officer paradigm will never function in an all-volunteer
organization.
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:41 AM
I wonder if this would then open up CAP members to attend the USAF NCO Academy for courses like the Airman Leadership School and such similar to CAP officers being able to attend USAF professional development courses.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.

No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 01:20:19 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.

No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.

Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 22, 2013, 01:21:25 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.

That statement beautifully encapsulates why the NCO / Officer paradigm will never function in an all-volunteer
organization.
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.

Sarge has a great point.

Operationally, a GT is led by a GTL. A GTL can be any rank and a GTM1, GTM2 or a GTM3 follows the GTL directions/orders. I have flown on actual missions and the Wing Commander was our MS. The only people who are rank conscious is new Senior Members and most Cadets understand why a 1st Lt is Squadron Commander and the Lt Col is making coffee and meeting/greeting people.   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:22:47 AM
It is you who assert that grad is meaningless.

Also I just said.....maybe this is a step into making grade less meaningless.

As for officers who don't understand the nco/officer relationship......where do you thing "real" officers learn that?  They certainly don't learn it at the Academy, ROTC or OTS.  They learn from their NCO's on the job.

Which is exactly where I will be......waiting to explain to these new 2d Lt's the errors of their ways and all the glories of heaven that can be theirs.....if they just listen to good old Sarge.

Eclipse.....don't teach your Granddad how to suck eggs.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:25:09 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:22:47 AM
Eclipse.....don't teach your Granddad how to suck eggs.

Don't teach your Granddad to suck eggs...Sir...    >:D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:25:16 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 01:20:19 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.

No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.

Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.
I'll get right onto that sir!   Oh, Sir the Col just called and said he wanted you to get him a CAP Form ID10T and get the Command Chief to sigh it for him.   >:D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:25:30 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.

RM would be one of the chief detractors. But at least they can't troll for salutes outside the BX.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:25:30 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.

RM would be one of the chief detractors. But at least they can't troll for salutes outside the BX.

Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.
Unfortunately......In my service there is a big difference between an E-9 and a "Chief" and all too often we get a lot of E-9's and not enough Chiefs.

As for "standing toe to  toe"......that's only a big deal if you (or they care).   
Sort of like the whole CAP Ranger issue.   
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:29:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.

*ding*

People don't run in panic from random Captains.

People *do* run in panic from the approach of an E-9.  Its like a Terminator: "Its never, ever gonna stop."

:)

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:36:23 AM
^ And, at least in the wive's tales, it's usually some NCO making the complaints about CAP salute trollers, so how's that
same guy (who's actually fictional) going to feel about this?

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other in the abstract.

My craw is stuck because with all of the REAL PROBLEMS we're facing, this is deck chairs, and the
last thing we need right now is more background noise and distractions, nor anything else that will
potentially cause a division between members.

We've got eleventy-twelveteen regs that are obsolete or self-conflict, ES doctrine that hasn't been addressed in a nearly a decade,
and a churn rate that would shut down most businesses, yet this somehow rises to the top of the list?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 01:45:03 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:25:16 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 01:20:19 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.

No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.

Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.
I'll get right onto that sir!   Oh, Sir the Col just called and said he wanted you to get him a CAP Form ID10T and get the Command Chief to sigh it for him.   >:D

That joke is much better when not written.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 22, 2013, 02:07:21 AM
Maybe we should wait to see some specifics before going into full-on debate mode?  We already have a huge general thread on the topic of CAP NCOs that would be more appropriate for some of this.

Lets see some reg proposals and then worry about tearing them apart?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: PHall on October 22, 2013, 02:08:54 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:29:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.

*ding*

People don't run in panic from random Captains.

People *do* run in panic from the approach of an E-9.  Its like a Terminator: "Its never, ever gonna stop."

:)

Maybe they run from E-9's on Army posts, but they sure don't on Air Force Bases.

But you can bet that if a CAP "Chief" shows up at an Air Force Base in uniform, a member of the base Chief's Group will be making face to face contact within 30 minutes of their arrival.
They're about the only ones who would care.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 02:57:02 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 12:53:50 AM
Quote from: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:36:07 AM
Even if the new policy doesn't go as far as some would like, I'm still going to give it a thumbs-up as a good step forward.

To What End?

My 2ยข:
1. It gives those who want to stay NCOs a way to keep advancing
2. If the end is creating a structure more like the RM where NCOs have a specific role and officer have another role, I can see some benefits to our whole program
   2a) I've been saying for a while that the training level and qualifications for promotion in the officer ranks should be raised. This could facilitate that.
3. Specialty tracks and PD could expand. Those in the NCO grades could focus more on the technical aspects of things and Os could dig into leadership and strategic development.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: sarmed1 on October 22, 2013, 03:08:38 AM
Good that NCO's can promote in the NCO ranks to make them feel better about themselves.  Bad-if there isnt more in the wings; its totally about them feeling better about themselves.

I would feel better about this plan if there was a change in the officer appointment/promotion requirements.  Basically putting them more in line with RM counterparts, in essence creating an enlisted corps (even if it will be all NCO's).

In speculation I wonder if some of the drive may come from the USAF change requiring a 4 year degree for SOS even for CAP students.

The down side(s) to more stringent requirements is that there are a lot of folks that are going to get butt hurt about being "demoted" down to Staff, Tech or Master because they dont have degrees after an appropriate phase in period.....and that all new people coming in are going to "only" be SSGT's when there friend who came in 3 months ago is a butter bar....

Would you/Should you put an education requirement onto existing officers to complete by XYZ date or just grandfather forever?
At least this would make life easier on where under 21 seniors fall into things....

mk
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 03:33:12 AM
What will placing an education/degree requirement on an all volunteer orginization accomplish?

We really need someone to have a B.S. in art deco history to inventory the unit supply?

This is a volunteer orginization, place an over abundance of requirements on those that do the day to day and they will walk....

Is CAP really that well staffed that we can ask the "very rural middle of the cornfields" squadron to mandate that those members dedicating their time to please go back to school and get a degree? I think not.

Time after time we complain we do not have the manpower for the things we want/required to do.

I am all for more in CAP traning to move up (espically major and above) but I am not for a degree requirement just to volunteer.

Change the "officer promotions" to include real measurement lines. Make promotions actually matter, don't just check the promotion box for anyone. Make people earn the grade, not just breath for the grade. More PME or PD or whatever we want to call it. Real experience in CAP command or staff areas, graded during an inspection or by a panel of area experts, then promote.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:46:42 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:36:23 AM
^ And, at least in the wive's tales, it's usually some NCO making the complaints about CAP salute trollers, so how's that
same guy (who's actually fictional) going to feel about this?

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other in the abstract.

My craw is stuck because with all of the REAL PROBLEMS we're facing, this is deck chairs, and the
last thing we need right now is more background noise and distractions, nor anything else that will
potentially cause a division between members.

We've got eleventy-twelveteen regs that are obsolete or self-conflict, ES doctrine that hasn't been addressed in a nearly a decade,
and a churn rate that would shut down most businesses, yet this somehow rises to the top of the list?
That's true......but to be fair....the CMSCAP was not tasked to take care of the eleventy-twelveteen regs and ES doctorine.   That is why there's a staff.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 04:55:53 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Air Force seems to think so.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 22, 2013, 04:59:25 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?

Can a SMWOG wear "Pilot" wings?  8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 22, 2013, 05:05:10 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 04:55:53 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Air Force seems to think so.

Now you are talking apples and oranges. And mijo, I prefer avocados   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 22, 2013, 05:17:50 AM
I have to agree Eclipse here.  What's the point of this, really?  Of all the problems in CAP, what will this actually solve?

My Squadron has, at most, nine active Senior Members.  The SM's, myself included, already pull multiple staff positions.  What exactly would being an NCO entail, exactly?

Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: vento on October 22, 2013, 05:19:22 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Of course everybody can be a pilot, I am simply trying to point out that in the real military, everybody can be a pilot, but only officers can be military pilots and wear their respective wings.

So, if we model ourselves after the real military, in our case the USAF, then we will not be utilizing the volunteers to their maximum potential if we don't allow NCO to be CAP pilots. Yet, if we deviate, then our USAF style uniform will look quite interesting when worn by CAP NCO sporting CAP pilot wings walking within AFB. I am not sure what the RM USAF's reaction would be. Just saying.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 22, 2013, 05:20:44 AM
My two cents for what it is worth...

Not everyone should be an officer, or NCO for that matter but anyone that wants to volunteer, there should be place for them.

So prior-Service enlisted or officer, your rank should transfer to an equal level in CAP... if you want to. Some may choose to start at the bottom and work their way up.

If you are a certified pilot but don't have a degree, then use the Technical Flight Officer Grades like Warrant Officers in the Military and place them their for their skill.

Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.

The trick is where do you place all the others without prior Service, pilot certifications or degrees and prior cadet time when they become senior members?

Also, do you grandfather the existing or require them to meet the new requirements?

That being said, maybe you might even need enlisted ranks for those that don't have any of the above (pilots, degrees, etc.) but still want to volunteer.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 05:25:36 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 22, 2013, 05:17:50 AM
I have to agree Eclipse here.  What's the point of this, really?  Of all the problems in CAP, what will this actually solve?

My Squadron has, at most, nine active Senior Members.  The SM's, myself included, already pull multiple staff positions.  What exactly would being an NCO entail, exactly?

Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?
None......but neither does it add to any problems....so why belly ache?

If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 05:53:55 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 05:20:44 AM


Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.



Why?

Why limit who can do what?

What issue is this solving? (Answer to that is none, because there is no issue in CAP)

Is there a sudden onslaught of non-college educated members unable to carry out the CAP mission because they lack an accredited college degree? (Oh wait the answer to that one is no as well)



Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 06:01:21 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 05:25:36 AM
If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

Of course it has an impact on us and our program!  We have to understand and administer the program at the squadron level, make sure that SMs that take the NCO route have the training and opportunities available, and help them to progress.  I'm not saying it's wrong or right, but it is going to have an impact.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 22, 2013, 06:11:37 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 05:53:55 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 05:20:44 AM


Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.



Why?

Why limit who can do what?

What issue is this solving? (Answer to that is none, because there is no issue in CAP)

Is there a sudden onslaught of non-college educated members unable to carry out the CAP mission because they lack an accredited college degree? (Oh wait the answer to that one is no as well)

Because that is what the actual military requires and if they are going to require that same level of education to attend their schools it might be better to be already in complience with their requirements.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 06:19:51 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 06:11:37 AM

Because that is what the actual military requires and if they are going to require that same level of education to attend their schools it might be better to be already in complience with their requirements.

The very smallest amount of CAP members attend SOS or any of the other PME classes that are (sometimes) offered to CAP. The very vast majority attend RSC and NSC.

The active duty military also requires security clearances, attendance to BMT and it's equivalent to new officers, PT tests, drug testing, "up and out" movement within the ranks, yearly evaluations on performance for everyone, and my personal favorite...mandatory retirement age limits... (Oh ya, they also get paid....)

So, CAP should require all of that just because the "real military" does. No.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 22, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 05:25:36 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 22, 2013, 05:17:50 AM
Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?
None......but neither does it add to any problems....so why belly ache?

If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

If it has zero influence, then why bother?  Why expend all the time and energy for something that will have zero change?

Personally, I like the proposal to expand the Flight Officer ranks (although I personally think they should use the title "Warrant Officer" and the corresponding insignia).  SM's start out as a SMWOG as usual, and at their 6-month mark with a completion of Level one, the SM is promoted to Warrant Officer 1.  Let SM's who want to progress in the program but not hold a command position (or train for one) stay as a Warrant Officer, up to Chief Warrant Officer 5.  If you want the "regular" Officer ranks, you have to attend leadership school and hold or have held a command position of some sort.

Yes, I understand that the RealAirForce(tm) doesn't use the Warrant Officer positions, but neither do they have Flight Officers (as a rank) either.  And as a bonus, we can just use existing Coast Guard embroidered rank insignia.

I'm just not seeing the "point" for the NCO corps.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: SarDragon on October 22, 2013, 06:44:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

The difference of the education. The AD O-1 goes through at least two months worth of days of training on how to be an officer. That's an ROTC student who goes one class period a week for four years, and two two week summer periods. It's likely more, and the OCS and Academy folks certainly get even more. Compare that to Level I, and maybe some weekly OJT, and you have the difference.

BTW, my ROTC experience is for one year, 46 years ago. You don't need to bore us with what's new.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: flyboy53 on October 22, 2013, 11:25:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.

So then. Consider this. I'm a real (retired) SNCO (AF MSgt) who was also one of the last CAP NCOs when the program was eliminated in the late 1970s.  I personally welcome this change. In this organization, it now gives a choice to a new senior member of which path to pursue -- and I don't think there will be AF SNCOs out there slamming the program as much as you think. I suspect that you will probably see a lot of mentoring going on.

I believe the time is right because it will open up the playing field and give a little more credence to our rank structure. Don't start slamming what we haven't seen yet, when you consider that Chief Walpus and our national commander are both retired AF NCOs. I suspect that this program will be pretty dynamic. Remember that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force. I suspect that's what is being considered here for the CAP. 

I do know that this program has been in the works since 2009 because I personally talked with the Chief just about this at the 09 NSC.

Maybe CAP officers may now have step up to the plate.

Too bad I'm at the level of this organization that I am (a wing director). The thought of trading silver oak leaves for master sergeant stripes would be pretty easy.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on October 22, 2013, 11:25:03 AM
...when you consider that Chief Walpus and our national commander are both retired AF NCOs. I suspect that this program will be pretty dynamic. Remember that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force. I suspect that's what is being considered here for the CAP.

That's a good point.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ZigZag911 on October 22, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1

There are CAP NCOs presently commanding squadrons.

Nothing in current regulations seems to prohibit this.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: arajca on October 22, 2013, 01:51:25 PM
It really says alot about how proud they are of this considering they didn't bother to tell the members or put the notice on eServices.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Angus on October 22, 2013, 01:55:55 PM
I'm trying to look up more info on this and still can't find anything aside from making the program stronger.  Has anyone heard any more about the new program?  Like for example if someone were to walk in off the street and just want to help in the back office with admin be able to do the NCO program or will it still be limited to those members who were active duty?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:03:26 PM
Here's an idea.

How about...

People join to volunteer their time in service to their country.

Everyone starts at the exact same level, no special appointments, no military equivalency, nothing.

Everyone does (or does not do) the same PD and rises through the ranks based solely on what they accomplish within CAP?
If you want to start everyone at E-0 vs O-0, whatever.

As in the real world, those who have "special skills" (whatever they may be) will naturally use them to rise to
various levels and may well progress further and faster then others.  Some will choose not to do anything in that regard
and that's OK too. Most will work hard and use a combo of life skills and internally gained training to progress at an organic rate.

I know, crazy.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.

You can have a pass to CP tech, but no grade if you make it to Phase IV.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 02:56:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.

You can have a pass to CP tech, but no grade if you make it to Phase IV.
-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:59:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 02:56:05 PM-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Its sounds good on paper, but very little of what cadets experience or understand directly translates to being a senior member, and only
a small percentage ever are able to use that experience in a meaningful way when they first transition.  Most dark-siders struggle just to find their
place when they realize how much of the CP they were wholly unaware of.

There's always exceptions, but those are few and far between.

OK - back to everyone starts the same.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 03:02:21 PM
Well then....this ties back to my idea about rank in general.

Everyone is a Flight Officer based on their PD level (FO-1, FO-2, etc) and rank is reserved for people in command slots. 

Leave the command slot....take off the rank and go back to being FO.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 03:06:54 PM
Where do I sign?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: AlphaSigOU on October 22, 2013, 03:27:32 PM
I'd expect a new CAPR 35-5 to be published shortly by NHQ. (I may be a newly-minted wing director of PD but haven't been put on the distro lists yet.)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 22, 2013, 03:57:12 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.

What!!!??  How did I not notice that?   Drop and start pushin' nasty enlisted man!
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: THRAWN on October 22, 2013, 04:04:53 PM
For the love of all that is bad and unholy....

Here's a crazy idea: scrap ALL SM ranks and titles and do it like the CGAux does it. Simple, straight to the point. You know by looking at a member just who it is that is able to sign the checks.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 22, 2013, 04:20:34 PM
This can be incorporated into the current system relatively easily.  We wouldn't need to a major overhaul and dropping the current system.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: a2capt on October 22, 2013, 04:57:40 PM
Why was the program eliminated back then? What was the reasoning?

What changed?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 05:05:21 PM
Actual information.  Why is af.mil more detailed on this then CAP's website?

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx (http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx)

"WASHINGTON (AFNS) --
The Civil Air Patrol took a step forward Oct. 17, with the signing and approval to restructure their noncommissioned officer corps to align with the Air Force NCO corps.

For the past 72 years, members of the Civil Air Patrol volunteer forces have completed three key missions โ€“ emergency services, aerospace education and cadet programs, with the guidance and expertise of their NCO corps.

Members of the CAP Board of Governors and their commander received approval on the proposal to restructure the NCO corps, which previously didn't allow rank progression within the CAP. Now, with the newly-established NCO corps structure, NCOs will be able to progress and promote through the ranks similar to the Air Force.

"It is no small task to create a framework for a professional volunteer force, and I'm very proud of the way everyone came together to create a workable proposal," said Daniel Ginsberg, the Air Force Manpower and Reserve Affairs assistant secretary.     

The current design of the NCO corps in the CAP only allows former active-duty NCOs to be a part of the corps, with no upgrade training for promotion within the ranks. The newly-signed corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure with an established process to promote and develop NCOs.

The one similar, but most immediate noticeable change as a result of the restructure is the uniform. The CAP Corps will use a chevron system similar to the Air Force, but the difference will include the CAP designating itself with the letters "C-A-P" and a propeller will be in place of the star on the chevrons.

Other changes within the corps will include:

- Provide CAP commanders with increased access to the professional military skills, training and experience of former NCOs.

- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

The objective of the restructure of the corps will bolster the CAP's mission capability and readiness to fulfill their congressionally-mandated missions.

"The NCO corps is the backbone of any organization and brings a wealth of information to the table," said Maj. Gen. Chuck Carr, the Civil Air Patrol commander. "This is the start of success."
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: AlphaSigOU on October 22, 2013, 05:22:02 PM
Quote from: a2capt on October 22, 2013, 04:57:40 PM
Why was the program eliminated back then? What was the reasoning?

What changed?

There are a couple of former CAP NCOs (of the Ooooold CAP NCO program) here on CT, but don't know their 'handles' off hand. I haven't received further guidance from NHQ, but expect to see some info soon.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:59:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 02:56:05 PM-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Its sounds good on paper, but very little of what cadets experience or understand directly translates to being a senior member, and only
a small percentage ever are able to use that experience in a meaningful way when they first transition.  Most dark-siders struggle just to find their
place when they realize how much of the CP they were wholly unaware of.

There's always exceptions, but those are few and far between.

OK - back to everyone starts the same.

If a Phase IV cadet hasn't done everything a SM has to do for the Tech rating in CP, there's something very, very wrong.  Senior Rating is beyond some of them (it's also beyond many SMs involved in CP), but Tech Rating is a fairly low bar.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:17:48 PM
NON CONCURE.

It took me 20 minutes or so to learn and be able to do everything I need to do for the Tech Rating....and I still had to wait six months. (or what ever it is).

IF......and I say this with all sincerity we replaced the Phase IV SDA with earn the CP Tech Rating....then maybe you would have something....but as it is now...there is nothing that requires a Spaatz cadet to do or know any of the requirements of the CP Tech Rating.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 06:41:10 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:17:48 PM
NON CONCURE.

It took me 20 minutes or so to learn and be able to do everything I need to do for the Tech Rating....and I still had to wait six months. (or what ever it is).

IF......and I say this with all sincerity we replaced the Phase IV SDA with earn the CP Tech Rating....then maybe you would have something....but as it is now...there is nothing that requires a Spaatz cadet to do or know any of the requirements of the CP Tech Rating.

Have you looked at it recently?  Tech rating really only requires understanding what the Cadet Program is.  No SM with only a Tech rating in CP meets these requirements better than a Spaatz cadet.

Which requirements do you think they wouldn't have met?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
The six months working with a mentor.
Taking the test.
Test Security.
Staffing two outside activities.

My point is.....if you make a SM jump through hoops......we need to make our Spaatz cadets jump through the same hoops.

Just going through the program.....does not mean you understand how the program is supposed to be managed.

Sure a Spaatz cadet has the ability to manage the program....but so did I when I came in as a SM in 2003.....but I still had to jump the hoop.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JeffDG on October 22, 2013, 06:57:45 PM
I've thought for some time that one solution to the "Advanced Grade without knowledge" would be to have special skills, etc. count for a waiver of time-in-grade, but that's all.

So...if you're a CFI, you start off as a SM, but you can skip the 6 months TIG for 2nd Lt. (once you finish Level 1), and once you get a Tech Rating you can get your 1st Lt immediately, and when you get your Level 2, your Captain.  That way, when you see a Captain, you know they have a certain level of PD training.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 07:13:24 PM
Six of one/half dozen of the other.

I personally thought that we just need the Advanced Promotees to "make up" their missing PD in a timely manner...say on year per level.

So a Retired Lt Col would have four year to get his level IV or he gets demoted to the level that his PD is at.

That is if we just don't make everyone FO's and give rank based on positions.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 07:19:16 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
The six months working with a mentor.
Not a requirement.  #6 is to define "mentoring", but that's as close as it gets.  Either way, the the hell have they been doing if they haven't been mentoring cadets since at least becoming a SNCO?!?!

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
Taking the test.
They take a lot more tests than you did, and the Tech rating test is to ensure you have a vague idea of what they just lived.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
Test Security.
Really?  By this time they have become quite familiar with test security.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
Staffing two outside activities.
Again, how do you have a cadet who hasn't staffed two activities by the time they get their Earhart?!?!  How do you allow a Phase IV cadet to promote without being staff at something?!

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
My point is.....if you make a SM jump through hoops......we need to make our Spaatz cadets jump through the same hoops.

Just going through the program.....does not mean you understand how the program is supposed to be managed.

Sure a Spaatz cadet has the ability to manage the program....but so did I when I came in as a SM in 2003.....but I still had to jump the hoop.
A Spaatz cadet has far more leadership training and experience than most SM Captains.  The hoops you had to jump through for a Tech rating are nothing compared to what a Spaatz has to do.  Also, the Tech rating doesn't mean you can manage anything - that is more what the Senior rating is about - but a Phase IV cadet has been managing the program for at least a year.  If they haven't, it is a failure of their CDC and most cadets won't be able to progress anyway.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 07:19:16 PMA Spaatz cadet has far more leadership training and experience than most SM Captains. 

Some?  Maybe.  Most.  No way.

Even the oldest ones are still kids maturing, and none has ever had the responsibility that the senior members do.
For example, being the Cadet Commander of an encampment does not equal being the commander, etc., etc.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 07:19:16 PMA Spaatz cadet has far more leadership training and experience than most SM Captains. 

Some?  Maybe.  Most.  No way.

Even the oldest ones are still kids maturing, and none has ever had the responsibility that the senior members do.
For example, being the Cadet Commander of an encampment does not equal being the commander, etc., etc.

Most SM Captains haven't been commanders either, nor have many had any command or organizational responsibility at all.  All that's required is SLS and a Tech rating in something.  Oh, and hanging around for three years.

Spaatz cadets must attend more training and have been involved in command within their unit at the very least.  They have managed projects and followed through, which is more than most SMs.  If they haven't, whoever approved their promotions has no business in cadet programs.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 07:50:03 PM
Sorry, this is derailing WAY off topic.

If people really want to discuss the worthlessness of Spaatz, perhaps a thread should be started in the Cadet Programs section.

EDIT: Thread started. http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18080.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18080.0)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 22, 2013, 08:12:10 PM
Just as a side. Tech rating is given for Earhart.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 08:32:56 PM
I've never agreed with the current program where every SM that joins CAP, regardless of experience, training, qualifications or aptitude, can become an officer after completing Level 1 and being a member for six months. If done right, I welcome the idea of an enlisted membership (not only an NCO corps, but members starting as airman as well). These members can focus on operations and support roles and, as they progress in grade, assume additional staff duties later on.

For that to work, however, we need to increase the requirements to become a CAP officer. We also need defined roles for each "track" or type of membership (enlisted and officer) and tailor professional development to each of those roles. Commanders and key staff officers would be selected from the officer corps and trained accordingly. And NCOs would fill other duties commensurable with their grades, using a model similar to that of the Air Force.

By increasing the requirements to become an officer and get promoted, we can (eventually) eliminate or at least reduce the current situation were Lt Cols "serve coffee" at meetings, while 1st Lts command squadrons. We may also be able to boost membership by removing the (silly) requirement that everyone who joins must have a staff position to progress in the program. If someone wants to "enlist" in CAP to work on Emergency Services, but doesn't want to be a staff officer, they should be able to do so and still be able to progress in the enlisted program.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 08:44:43 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 08:32:56 PMIf someone wants to "enlist" in CAP to work on Emergency Services, but doesn't want to be a staff officer, they should be able to do so and still be able to progress in the enlisted program.

If we really want to do this right, then we go back to manning tables, billets, and an expectation that it's "up or out".
We'd probably need to put a time limit on membership as well, otherwise everyone will still pile up at either Chief or
whatever officer grade is the highest / easiest.
Otherwise, you're just picking and choosing the "easy" parts, to the detriment of the entire idea.

Of course you have to have a staff job to get promoted.  You can't just pay your dues and get a new pin every three years.
Military officers and enlisted receive promotions:

After they are qualified.
In anticipation on increased responsibility.
And only when the manning table allows for it because a job or jobs is now open.

Responsibility, especially, is something many CAP members have real issues with.  For every member who wakes up every day concerned
about the weight of what needs to be done and his duty to his fellow officers, there 5 who wear the "you're lucky I showed up at all" ribbon
with 3 "You can't, I won't, you can't make me" clusters.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 08:32:56 PM
Commanders and key staff officers would be selected from the officer corps and trained accordingly. And NCOs would fill other duties commensurable with their grades, using a model similar to that of the Air Force



Question #1. How do you keep the selection for officers fair and impartial? (In other words, how do you limit the GOB network from establishing kingdoms? How do you make sure that bob does not select his best buddy bobby over Timmy who is way more experienced?)  Lets be honest, CAP in the past has not been known as the most impartial selecting organization in the world...

Question #2. What the heck is a 40 year old Airman or A1C going to contribute to CAP if we artificially limit his/her roles??
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 09:00:17 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 08:32:56 PM
Commanders and key staff officers would be selected from the officer corps and trained accordingly. And NCOs would fill other duties commensurable with their grades, using a model similar to that of the Air Force



Question #1. How do you keep the selection for officers fair and impartial? (In other words, how do you limit the GOB network from establishing kingdoms? How do you make sure that bob does not select his best buddy bobby over Timmy who is way more experienced?)  Lets be honest, CAP in the past has not been known as the most impartial selecting organization in the world...

Question #2. What the heck is a 40 year old Airman or A1C going to contribute to CAP if we artificially limit his/her roles??
It's every 60-year-old's dream to be treated like a puissant after 20 years by a snot-nosed 25-year-old with no experience because the kid has a college degree so he's in charge.

By the way, this is nothing like enlisted and officers in the military.  The only reason our members are here is because they want to be.  Give them reasons not to want to be here and they leave.  The military has contracts - you're paid to take their [mess] and if you leave you go to jail.  In a volunteer organization, we'll just tell you to [farg] off.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 09:02:02 PM
By the way, love the auto-censor!
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 22, 2013, 09:14:41 PM
Form 1D10T... is that the form used to request the parachute pilot wings?

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 09:31:29 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 08:32:56 PM
Commanders and key staff officers would be selected from the officer corps and trained accordingly. And NCOs would fill other duties commensurable with their grades, using a model similar to that of the Air Force

Question #1. How do you keep the selection for officers fair and impartial?

By having a defined set of requirements. I'll let the national leadership figure out what those should be.

Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 08:45:03 PM
Question #2. What the heck is a 40 year old Airman or A1C going to contribute to CAP if we artificially limit his/her roles??

Who said they have to join as an airman? Their grade would be determined by their background and qualifications, as well as their preference if they qualify for both enlisted and officer grades.

Quote from: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 09:00:17 PM
It's every 60-year-old's dream to be treated like a puissant after 20 years by a snot-nosed 25-year-old with no experience because the kid has a college degree so he's in charge.

Who said that it has to be that way?

I'm not the one who established the NCO program. But if we're going to have one, then it should be about more than just a member's preference (do I become enlisted or officer?). If there's no difference between the programs, then why have two? Why not just improve the one we currently have?

According to the article, Maj Gen Carr said that "the NCO corps is the backbone of any organization and brings a wealth of information to the table". I know what that means in the Air Force (I'm a former NCO and current officer) but, what does it mean in CAP? If we're just providing means for promotion and nothing else, then I'm not sure this new program is going to be worthwhile. How will a CAP promoted CMSgt rate against an Air Force CMSgt? If there's no difference in scope between officer and NCO then, can NCOs really be the "backbone" of CAP?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 09:51:17 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 09:31:29 PM
If there's no difference in scope between officer and NCO then, can NCOs really be the "backbone" of CAP?
That's the question, isn't it?  Has anyone bothered to ask why the NCOs are the backbone of the military?  I would propose that it's because they supervise all of the actual work, done by the enlisted below them.  Officers manage and assign tasks to their NCOs, who pass to the enlisted their specific job.  Under that paradigm, the lower enlisted have no real voice, they do the job they're ordered to do.

While that works really, really well for the military, it is not really applicable for us.  We don't have the membership numbers to make that work, and it severely limits the officer corp and provides no chance for enlisted to have any real impact on the organization other than keeping their heads down and doing their job.  For something that I have to pay for and get no benefits out of (aside from the "pleasure" of doing work), I don't see this paradigm being able to retain members.  We are already spreading staff officers thin, and many places have a hard time finding Command Officers.  Severely limiting the number of available personnel would be crippling.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 09:51:17 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 22, 2013, 09:31:29 PM
If there's no difference in scope between officer and NCO then, can NCOs really be the "backbone" of CAP?
That's the question, isn't it?  Has anyone bothered to ask why the NCOs are the backbone of the military?  I would propose that it's because they supervise all of the actual work, done by the enlisted below them.  Officers manage and assign tasks to their NCOs, who pass to the enlisted their specific job.  Under that paradigm, the lower enlisted have no real voice, they do the job they're ordered to do.

While that works really, really well for the military, it is not really applicable for us.  We don't have the membership numbers to make that work, and it severely limits the officer corp and provides no chance for enlisted to have any real impact on the organization other than keeping their heads down and doing their job.  For something that I have to pay for and get no benefits out of (aside from the "pleasure" of doing work), I don't see this paradigm being able to retain members.  We are already spreading staff officers thin, and many places have a hard time finding Command Officers.  Severely limiting the number of available personnel would be crippling.

^ This.

Has there been a recruiting push into military bases and the response cards said "Only if I can be an NCO?"

Has there been a member exit survey that indicated "I would have stayed if I could have been an NCO / been promoted as an NCO?"

Is there evidence that NCOs can somehow train cadets "more better" if they wear stripes instead of steel?

What specific, mission-focused problem does this solve?  Especially to have it come to the top of the list ahead of other real problems.

Absent actual recruiting, this does not bring us new members, nor impact retention in a meaningful way. 
Anyone angst-y enough to stay or quit over their grade is not likely engaged at a meaningful level anyway, because
most of those that are see the grade as a fun distraction, but not really a deal breaker either way.

It doesn't bring us funding.

It doesn't get us more missions, better standing in the ES community, or the toys some say we need to have.

?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 22, 2013, 11:46:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:03:26 PM
Here's an idea.

How about...

People join to volunteer their time in service to their country.

Everyone starts at the exact same level, no special appointments, no military equivalency, nothing.

Everyone does (or does not do) the same PD and rises through the ranks based solely on what they accomplish within CAP?
If you want to start everyone at E-0 vs O-0, whatever.

As in the real world, those who have "special skills" (whatever they may be) will naturally use them to rise to
various levels and may well progress further and faster then others.  Some will choose not to do anything in that regard
and that's OK too. Most will work hard and use a combo of life skills and internally gained training to progress at an organic rate.

I know, crazy.

No not crazy... sounds like the USCGAux  model.  ;)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 22, 2013, 11:58:48 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 11:46:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 02:03:26 PM
Here's an idea.

How about...

People join to volunteer their time in service to their country.

Everyone starts at the exact same level, no special appointments, no military equivalency, nothing.

Everyone does (or does not do) the same PD and rises through the ranks based solely on what they accomplish within CAP?
If you want to start everyone at E-0 vs O-0, whatever.

As in the real world, those who have "special skills" (whatever they may be) will naturally use them to rise to
various levels and may well progress further and faster then others.  Some will choose not to do anything in that regard
and that's OK too. Most will work hard and use a combo of life skills and internally gained training to progress at an organic rate.

I know, crazy.

No not crazy... sounds like the USCGAux  model.  ;)

Aside from the special promotions, this is pretty much how it is now.  The issue would be to find something to replace the special promotions to complete their purpose: recruiting skilled people.  Somehow, offering people a starting salary at 150% of the entry salary doesn't help in that regard when the starting is still $0.00. :P
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: CDCTF on October 23, 2013, 01:41:56 AM
Hmm, NCO progression, but still no enlisted corps to lead, not sure where this is getting us.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 01:48:22 AM
Its going to be funny when the confusion sets in.  People, even non-vets are going to have fun learning that despite having officers and enlisted.... we are still all the same and nobody really outranks anybody else.  It was hard enough explaining to new members why I was a 1Lt and was the Sq Commander, while I had LTCs on my staff  :o
I cant wait for a 19yr old 2Lt who spent 4 years in JROTC joins CAP for the first time and says "MSgt Hall, what is your major malfunction??!!!"   
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: PHall on October 23, 2013, 02:03:59 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 01:48:22 AM
Its going to be funny when the confusion sets in.  People, even non-vets are going to have fun learning that despite having officers and enlisted.... we are still all the same and nobody really outranks anybody else.  It was hard enough explaining to new members why I was a 1Lt and was the Sq Commander, while I had LTCs on my staff  :o
I cant wait for a 19yr old 2Lt who spent 4 years in JROTC joins CAP for the first time and says "MSgt Hall, what is your major malfunction??!!!"


I can't wait for that either.   bruhahahaha  >:D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 02:19:26 AM
Quote from: CDCTF on October 23, 2013, 01:41:56 AM
Hmm, NCO progression, but still no enlisted corps to lead, not sure where this is getting us.

My guess is there will be no non-NCO enlisted members....
Lvl I=SSGT
Lvl II=TSGT
Lvl III=MSGT
Lvl IV=SMSGT
Lvl V=CMSGT

part of this is I think that CAPNCO's want a system to promote, and thats fine.  But without some sort of major overhaul of the rank system for all seniors it seems like it is still just a continuation of the "I aint no officer, I work for a living" kind of line...

I wouldnt see a problem with having all senior members start in the SMWOG then depending on what there interest is and unit needs look for a track that matches up with their background and experience.
Cont with proffesional appointments for "commissioning"  Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses, Chaplins etc relatively automatic (and we can include current/former military officers)
Pilots also go directly to the O-range, the caveat would be if you dont have a college degree you dont go past Captain (we can argue out 2yr vs 4 yr vs credit hours later)

I would actually be inlinced to leave everyone esle in the enlisted grades unless you find a need to assign someone to an officer position.  ie commanders & DC's and I would say OPS, safey, PA and admin should also HAVE an officer assigment; there are other areas depending on unit size that you could also have officers, sort of like flight/platoon leaders on the RM side' mostly thinking ops specific (ie Stan/Eval for flying units and ES officer for both)

Also on eclipse's "billets" line of thinking rather than hard and fast "numbers" you could come up with more of a 1 LT for every X members 1 Capt etc etc sort of matrix.  (I think that flying squadrons would have to have a different matrix)

...its going to take more than that, and I am sure there are a number of possible options/contingencies that would have to be discussed.  But those are the iedeas rolling out of my head a the moment.

mk

Otherwise
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Walkman on October 23, 2013, 02:45:14 AM
What about having different specialty tracks for Es & Os? Not sure how it would work, just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 02:52:11 AM
Why?  Just to give the ranks some sort of validity? Ehhhhhhh, yeah the hardest thing will be explaining to potential members why there are officers and enlisted.  It basically boils down to what you think looks better on your uniform. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 23, 2013, 02:55:22 AM
You have forgotten one part of CAP senior membership. Before being promoted, senior members spend six months with no grade. Can you accept making it more difficult for these members to attain grade, and these senior members be called "enlisted senior members?" The CAP NCOs would be between these and the officer grades!

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 23, 2013, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 23, 2013, 02:55:22 AM
Before being promoted, senior members spend six months with no grade.

Not all of them.  Lot's and lots of CFI Captains get promoted the day after level I clears.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: MSG Mac on October 23, 2013, 03:19:51 AM
Can all of us wait for the actual reg to be published before whining about it?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 03:22:39 AM
Id rather not wait 2-3 years before we whine about it.  Sorta looses its luster >:D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 23, 2013, 03:24:07 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on October 23, 2013, 03:19:51 AM
Can all of us wait for the actual reg to be published before whining about it?

Reg?  You mean the NCO-ICL?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JoeTomasone on October 23, 2013, 03:32:59 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on October 23, 2013, 03:19:51 AM
Can all of us wait for the actual reg to be published before whining about it?

I'm just thankful that the change to the embroidered chevrons didn't ignite another thread-crushing uniform debate.   >:D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 03:58:32 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 02:19:26 AM
My guess is there will be no non-NCO enlisted members....
Lvl I=SSGT
Lvl II=TSGT
Lvl III=MSGT
Lvl IV=SMSGT
Lvl V=CMSGT

The problem with this is that everything over Level II is getting into organizational management - not really the purview of NCOs.

The idea of promoting someone to an officer grade to fill a job then dropping them back to NCO just doesn't make any sense to me.  Anything that reduces the pool of officers at this point also seems counterproductive since most units don't have enough to go around as it is.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 23, 2013, 07:42:47 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 09:59:38 PM
Has there been a recruiting push into military bases and the response cards said "Only if I can be an NCO?"

Has there been a member exit survey that indicated "I would have stayed if I could have been an NCO / been promoted as an NCO?"

Is there evidence that NCOs can somehow train cadets "more better" if they wear stripes instead of steel?

#1, unless you were a NCO, you have no ideal. It is like the Beirut barracks bombing, 10/23/1983, 30 years ago. Incomprehensible indeed.

#2, but we have CAP officers who have left because they got hurt feelings; re: promotions, awards, etc.

#3, former military NCOs regardless of their CAP grade train Cadets better than most parents.

JMHO YMMV   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 07:46:03 AM
Quote from: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 03:58:32 AM

The problem with this is that everything over Level II is getting into organizational management - not really the purview of NCOs.

The idea of promoting someone to an officer grade to fill a job then dropping them back to NCO just doesn't make any sense to me.  Anything that reduces the pool of officers at this point also seems counterproductive since most units don't have enough to go around as it is.

I agree that the level of trainnig doesnt match with the role of the NCO at that point; but it is more where I think they would go with it rather than what would be appropriate.  Personally I would buy off on Staff and Tech within Level I, Master at LeveL II, and Senior at Level III.  Chiefs would be based on appointment to group level only and more as a staff position rather than a proffesional development level.

Reducing the officer pool doesnt matter, manpower is manpower, short of command billets, I dont think it matters what "rank" you are to do the job.  Personnel NCO or Personnel Officer, the job gets done the same.

I thought about would you drop people back or leave them at an officer grade if they gave up a position with a grade expectation.  I dont have a good answer to that one.  I can se the plus and minus to each theory.   Maybe something like wing commanders, must serve in the position for at least a year and be reccomended byt he commander to make grade permanant, that way you prevent people from taking a position for 3 months just to get an officer promotion out of it.....

If you are going to build even a semblence of an enlisted/NCO corps for NCO's to be the backbone of.... there has to be some balance to keep people at the NCO level yet not otherwise restricting peoples personal/proffesional growth within the organizaiton.  Equally blancing the need to maintain an officer corps, without leaving jobs unfilled while you are waiting to find someone to "commision" to fill a job......

My optimistic side says this could be a great thing for the organization: re-alligning NCO's and officer roles and jobs to be more similar to the military and even other organizations (ie not appearing to be a group of officer wanna-be's, too many chiefs not enough indians and otherwise confusing peoples perception of the structure of the organization... ie why are there a whole punch of Lt's and Captains filling sand bags or why is that 1LT in charge of that LTC??)

My pesimistic side says the "corps of NCO's" is going to be that same group of poeple that it is now, their jobs wont change and CAP wont use them any differently, they can just now get to Chief like they always wanted when the were AD.....

mk
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 23, 2013, 07:48:23 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 03:22:39 AM
Id rather not wait 2-3 years before we whine about it.  Sorta looses its luster >:D

Correctamundo. 2 years from now we'll be distracted by the ABUs.

They had a fast track for the Command Speciality Track, they should do the same for the CAP NCOs.   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 23, 2013, 08:10:58 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 07:46:03 AMReducing the officer pool doesnt matter, manpower is manpower, short of command billets, I dont think it matters what "rank" you are to do the job.  Personnel NCO or Personnel Officer, the job gets done the same.

My pesimistic side says the "corps of NCO's" is going to be that same group of poeple that it is now, their jobs wont change and CAP wont use them any differently, they can just now get to Chief like they always wanted when the were AD.....

Two great points here. If I am Comm guy and all I want to do is comm. Why can't I be a SSgt with the goal of being a Master Sergeant one day?   :clap:

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 08:14:47 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 07:46:03 AM
Quote from: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 03:58:32 AM

The problem with this is that everything over Level II is getting into organizational management - not really the purview of NCOs.

The idea of promoting someone to an officer grade to fill a job then dropping them back to NCO just doesn't make any sense to me.  Anything that reduces the pool of officers at this point also seems counterproductive since most units don't have enough to go around as it is.

I agree that the level of trainnig doesnt match with the role of the NCO at that point; but it is more where I think they would go with it rather than what would be appropriate.  Personally I would buy off on Staff and Tech within Level I, Master at LeveL II, and Senior at Level III.  Chiefs would be based on appointment to group level only and more as a staff position rather than a proffesional development level.

Reducing the officer pool doesnt matter, manpower is manpower, short of command billets, I dont think it matters what "rank" you are to do the job.  Personnel NCO or Personnel Officer, the job gets done the same.

I thought about would you drop people back or leave them at an officer grade if they gave up a position with a grade expectation.  I dont have a good answer to that one.  I can se the plus and minus to each theory.   Maybe something like wing commanders, must serve in the position for at least a year and be reccomended byt he commander to make grade permanant, that way you prevent people from taking a position for 3 months just to get an officer promotion out of it.....

If you are going to build even a semblence of an enlisted/NCO corps for NCO's to be the backbone of.... there has to be some balance to keep people at the NCO level yet not otherwise restricting peoples personal/proffesional growth within the organizaiton.  Equally blancing the need to maintain an officer corps, without leaving jobs unfilled while you are waiting to find someone to "commision" to fill a job......

My optimistic side says this could be a great thing for the organization: re-alligning NCO's and officer roles and jobs to be more similar to the military and even other organizations (ie not appearing to be a group of officer wanna-be's, too many chiefs not enough indians and otherwise confusing peoples perception of the structure of the organization... ie why are there a whole punch of Lt's and Captains filling sand bags or why is that 1LT in charge of that LTC??)

My pesimistic side says the "corps of NCO's" is going to be that same group of poeple that it is now, their jobs wont change and CAP wont use them any differently, they can just now get to Chief like they always wanted when the were AD.....

mk

Well said.

To give a little background on my concern about reducing the officer pool, staff positions are only part of it and, as you said, they could be filled with NCOs.  I know of at least three squadrons that were in a situation where they couldn't find a commander.  They ended up with the choice of choosing somebody or cease to exist.  One was a fairly large squadron and a former commander stepped up (again) until they could find someone else.  While we have officers that are willing to teach or fly, they don't have the desire or time for command.  If they disallow people without a 4-year degree to be officers, it eliminates people that may be willing to fill those positions.

Your description is more dynamic and reactive, which is good.  I think you're right that it will create a lot of confusion as people get used to it.  I also think that unless people are forced to be NCOs, it will be mostly the same people that are there now, but I have hope that they will be utilized better and provide a program to give them some kind of fulfillment that doesn't exist as it is.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 08:19:20 AM
Other things that rattle around in my currious mind:  would you change some of the PME requirements for promotion/Level award:

ALS coorespondence vs SLS? to get to TSGT?  I would also argue the CAP instructor course be a requirement early on
NCOA vs OBC for Level II... (I would include SLS here)
SNCO for promotion to SMSGT... (I would include CLC here)

Then if you want to "commision" do you come onbaord as an O1 or as and O-whatever based on the Level you are at?

mk
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 23, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
I don't agree with limiting CAP officers to college grads.  We have to remember we are a volunteer organization, not a professional military.  People come and go at their pleasure.

Speaking for myself, I have extensive professional supervisor and management experience in the private sector.  I have never earned a college degree for various reasons.  Should I be barred from a command position simply because I don't have a piece of sheepskin proclaiming I spent an ungodly amount of money and four years of my life learning about ancient ritual drum circles of the middle-Mongolian tribes or something?

It goes back to the old joke:  what does a person say after graduating with their Liberal Arts degree?  "Would you like fries with that?"

Along the same times, not everybody should be an officer.  Like many have pointed out, if somebody wants to join up just to run SAR or GM's or focus on one aspect of CAP, and that's what they're happy doing, than why "force" them into promotion in what is normally seen as a command rank by everybody else.

But the question is: do we really have the numbers for a true "enlisted / NCO corps"? 

Maybe organizing it as such:

Single-aspect members (i.e. just wants to run SAR): Enlisted ranks (Start at "normal" enlisted, can progress to the NCO chain.)
Staff officers: Warrant Officer ranks.  (WO1-CWO5)
Command-position officers: Second Lieutenant and above.

Command position ranks are temporary and strictly position-based.  If you resign your command position, you revert back to your normal Warrant Officer grade.  There is no shame in this.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 08:50:50 AM
It's been suggested we segregate our membership based on having a 4-year degree.  I'm aware that's the way it's done in the military, but I think it could have a lot of unintended consequences.

I, for example, have no such degree.  If I had joined as a SSgt, I wouldn't have four of the tech ratings I hold now.  Why?  Because I would feel it wasn't my place, and that I should concentrate on technical skills like IT, Communications, and ES.  PD, AE, and CP are things I didn't have experience in and would leave it to those with degrees in those areas or, in the case of CP, are experienced former AD NCOs.  I wouldn't have had the opportunity for the Command track.

Even looking at the decorations I've been given, the highest award wouldn't exist if I were an NCO as they are both for taking charge of special projects and making them happen.  Projects I felt a responsibility to see through as the Deputy Commander for Seniors - a post I would be ineligible for.

It's not about the badges or ribbon, it's about what I did to get them - things that would not have happened if I were a SSgt because I would have felt doing so would be overstepping my bounds.  I'm not everyone, but I'm sure there are others like me out there.

Just food for thought.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
If I ever attend a wing conference again I want to make sure Im an officer. I will not tolerate eating with enlisted types.  Perhaps we could have two banquets. Officers can have our banquet first while the unwashed enlisted serve us.  Then we can retire to the library and smoke cigars, listen to classicsl music and discuss world affairs while the enlisted have their banquet, chocked full of debautchery, alcohol and heavy metal music.  Silly enlisted. 
Hmmmm.... well, maybe that enlisted track wouldnt be too bad?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: SarDragon on October 23, 2013, 09:57:08 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 08:19:20 AM
Other things that rattle around in my currious mind:  would you change some of the PME requirements for promotion/Level award:

ALS coorespondence vs SLS? to get to TSGT?  I would also argue the CAP instructor course be a requirement early on
NCOA vs OBC for Level II... (I would include SLS here)
SNCO for promotion to SMSGT... (I would include CLC here)

Then if you want to "commission" do you come onboard as an O1 or as and O-whatever based on the Level you are at?

mk

I disagree. Simply sending someone through a course such as exists now, does not an instructor make. I spent a whole month learning that stuff as a Navy E-6, and it was the hardest course I took in the Navy. It was even harder than the 6 months of electronics school. It also had the highest fail rate of any courses I took.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JC004 on October 23, 2013, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 03:58:32 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 23, 2013, 02:19:26 AM
My guess is there will be no non-NCO enlisted members....
Lvl I=SSGT
Lvl II=TSGT
Lvl III=MSGT
Lvl IV=SMSGT
Lvl V=CMSGT

The problem with this is that everything over Level II is getting into organizational management - not really the purview of NCOs.
...

Good point.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: wuzafuzz on October 23, 2013, 11:37:57 AM
This is all getting a bit silly.  CAP could dispose of Senior Member grade tomorrow and most of us would keep volunteering our hearts out.  The same people who truly contribute now would keep on truckin' and most of my Senior Members wouldn't notice the difference since they usually wear polo shirts anyway. SM, NCO, or officer makes almost no difference to me.

In fact, most other volunteer groups do just fine without rank or grade. Most have a few position based titles and a lot of people who are just glad to help. Red Cross, ARES, and SAR teams are a few examples.

I'm not completely knocking SM CAP grade; I've done PD and served in some challenging roles (currently commanding a 140-ish member squadron and wing communications director).  As a result they let me wear gold oak leaves on some of my CAP uniforms.  Change my title and take away the oak leaves and I'll keep doing exactly what I did before.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 23, 2013, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
If I ever attend a wing conference again I want to make sure Im an officer. I will not tolerate eating with enlisted types.  Perhaps we could have two banquets. Officers can have our banquet first while the unwashed enlisted serve us.  Then we can retire to the library and smoke cigars, listen to classicsl music and discuss world affairs while the enlisted have their banquet, chocked full of debautchery, alcohol and heavy metal music.  Silly enlisted. 
Hmmmm.... well, maybe that enlisted track wouldnt be too bad?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m3UMhcQGQBM/T3NUvkpvyOI/AAAAAAAALt0/U7tWzNngJ28/s1600/Ohne%2BTitel-168.jpg)

"I say, old chap, let us continue to discuss proper form usage and paperwork distribution while we savor a fine brandy while those CAP NCO's have their "fun".  Pip pip.  Cheerio."
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Jaison009 on October 23, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
As you mentioned we (American Red Cross) have position based titles (local role is not always the same as national and for the purpose of discussion I am only addressing our Disaster Ops Human Resources System national roles). We do not wear grade; however, it is known who is in charge and their rank.

All of our volunteers and most employees start as service associates in their chosen group (Individual Client Services, Mass Care, External Relations Information and Planning, Logistics, Ops Mgmt, Disaster Srvs Technology, Staff Services)  and activity (Ind Client Srvs: Client Casework, Disaster Health Services, Disaster Mental Health Services, Recovery Planning & Assistance, Mass Care: Feeding, Sheltering, Bulk Distribution, Safe and Well, External Relations: Government Ops, Community Partnerships, Fund Raising, Public Affairs, Info and Planning: Disaster Assessment, Information Dissemination, Financial & Statistical Information, Finance, Logistics: Facilities, In kind donations, Warehousing, Transportation, Life Safety Asset Protection, Procurement Staff Services: Local Community Volunteers, Staff Relations, Training, Staff Wellness, Staff Planning and Support, Disaster Srvs Technology: Communications, Networking, Customer Service, Computer Ops.

Once volunteers and employees have met the basic requirements for their group and activity, they become a service associate. From there local leadership can make anyone that has the training and life experience a supervisor. To promote from SV to Manager, there is a promotion packet and oral interview process. This must be signed off on by the division. From MN someone may promote to Generalist Manager and then Chief after going through the respective process and approval from NHQ.  This comes out to SA-SV-MN-GM-CH. This is the same for nearly every group and activity.

Lets take Staff Services as an example. If someone is in Staff Planning and Support their title is Staff Services (SS)/Staff Planning & Support (SPS)/Position so SS/SPS/SA,SV,MN,GM,CH.

For our Operations Management (OM) (our version of Incident Commanders) we have Site Directors (SD), Multi Site Directors (MD), Assistant Directors (AD), Directors (DIR). SDs are selected & appointed based on training and life experience by local leadership (Region/State). MDs are appointed and promoted at Division level. ADs and DIRs are appointed and promoted by NHQ.

Salvation Army also has a similar version of grade and rank within their system.

Both systems require training, PD, and life experience to advance. Just as CAP has multiple speciality tracks, ARC allows volunteers and employees to have multiple GAPs. For instance mine are OM/SD, ER/LG/SV, IP/FSI/SV, and SS/SPS/SA.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 23, 2013, 11:37:57 AM
This is all getting a bit silly.  CAP could dispose of Senior Member grade tomorrow and most of us would keep volunteering our hearts out.  The same people who truly contribute now would keep on truckin' and most of my Senior Members wouldn't notice the difference since they usually wear polo shirts anyway. SM, NCO, or officer makes almost no difference to me.

In fact, most other volunteer groups do just fine without rank or grade. Most have a few position based titles and a lot of people who are just glad to help. Red Cross, ARES, and SAR teams are a few examples.

I'm not completely knocking SM CAP grade; I've done PD and served in some challenging roles (currently commanding a 140-ish member squadron and wing communications director).  As a result they let me wear gold oak leaves on some of my CAP uniforms.  Change my title and take away the oak leaves and I'll keep doing exactly what I did before.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 23, 2013, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: Jaison009 on October 23, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
As you mentioned we (American Red Cross) have position based titles (local role is not always the same as national and for the purpose of discussion I am only addressing our Disaster Ops Human Resources System national roles). We do not wear grade; however, it is known who is in charge and their rank.

All of our volunteers and most employees start as service associates in their chosen group (Individual Client Services, Mass Care, External Relations Information and Planning, Logistics, Ops Mgmt, Disaster Srvs Technology, Staff Services)  and activity (Ind Client Srvs: Client Casework, Disaster Health Services, Disaster Mental Health Services, Recovery Planning & Assistance, Mass Care: Feeding, Sheltering, Bulk Distribution, Safe and Well, External Relations: Government Ops, Community Partnerships, Fund Raising, Public Affairs, Info and Planning: Disaster Assessment, Information Dissemination, Financial & Statistical Information, Finance, Logistics: Facilities, In kind donations, Warehousing, Transportation, Life Safety Asset Protection, Procurement Staff Services: Local Community Volunteers, Staff Relations, Training, Staff Wellness, Staff Planning and Support, Disaster Srvs Technology: Communications, Networking, Customer Service, Computer Ops.

Once volunteers and employees have met the basic requirements for their group and activity, they become a service associate. From there local leadership can make anyone that has the training and life experience a supervisor. To promote from SV to Manager, there is a promotion packet and oral interview process. This must be signed off on by the division. From MN someone may promote to Generalist Manager and then Chief after going through the respective process and approval from NHQ.  This comes out to SA-SV-MN-GM-CH. This is the same for nearly every group and activity.

Lets take Staff Services as an example. If someone is in Staff Planning and Support their title is Staff Services (SS)/Staff Planning & Support (SPS)/Position so SS/SPS/SA,SV,MN,GM,CH.

For our Operations Management (OM) (our version of Incident Commanders) we have Site Directors (SD), Multi Site Directors (MD), Assistant Directors (AD), Directors (DIR). SDs are selected & appointed based on training and life experience by local leadership (Region/State). MDs are appointed and promoted at Division level. ADs and DIRs are appointed and promoted by NHQ.

Salvation Army also has a similar version of grade and rank within their system.

Both systems require training, PD, and life experience to advance. Just as CAP has multiple speciality tracks, ARC allows volunteers and employees to have multiple GAPs. For instance mine are OM/SD, ER/LG/SV, IP/FSI/SV, and SS/SPS/SA.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 23, 2013, 11:37:57 AM
This is all getting a bit silly.  CAP could dispose of Senior Member grade tomorrow and most of us would keep volunteering our hearts out.  The same people who truly contribute now would keep on truckin' and most of my Senior Members wouldn't notice the difference since they usually wear polo shirts anyway. SM, NCO, or officer makes almost no difference to me.

In fact, most other volunteer groups do just fine without rank or grade. Most have a few position based titles and a lot of people who are just glad to help. Red Cross, ARES, and SAR teams are a few examples.

I'm not completely knocking SM CAP grade; I've done PD and served in some challenging roles (currently commanding a 140-ish member squadron and wing communications director).  As a result they let me wear gold oak leaves on some of my CAP uniforms.  Change my title and take away the oak leaves and I'll keep doing exactly what I did before.

In reality, I think having no grade would be better than separating based on education.  Separation puts artificial limits on people.

I've always considered grade in CAP as little more than an acknowledgement of service - whether AD service or CAP service.  Actual authority rests with the positions we hold.  I haven't seen much confusion when I've described it that way.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 04:34:57 PM
I agree.  In my 20 years in CAP I always viewed rank the same way I viewed the ribbons on someone's chest.  Unlike the military, our rank holds no authority in or out of CAP just like our ribbons don't carry any authority.   We operate in a position based operation.    By adding enlisted rank, we have done nothing more than add several more "medals".
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 24, 2013, 06:58:06 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 04:34:57 PM
I agree.  In my 20 years in CAP I always viewed rank the same way I viewed the ribbons on someone's chest.  Unlike the military, our rank holds no authority in or out of CAP just like our ribbons don't carry any authority.   We operate in a position based operation.    By adding enlisted rank, we have done nothing more than add several more "medals".

It is the CAP way of giving recognition. Also by looking at CAP ribbons you know if the person is an ES Guy, CP type or AE nerd. Same with CAP rank. You know their participation. A 30 year member who is a 1st Lt is not comparable to a 30 year member who is a Lt Col. Of course YMMV.  8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 24, 2013, 06:58:53 AM
D'oh,
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 24, 2013, 07:31:22 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 23, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
I don't agree with limiting CAP officers to college grads.  We have to remember we are a volunteer organization, not a professional military.  People come and go at their pleasure.

Speaking for myself, I have extensive professional supervisor and management experience in the private sector.  I have never earned a college degree for various reasons.  Should I be barred from a command position simply because I don't have a piece of sheepskin proclaiming I spent an ungodly amount of money and four years of my life learning about ancient ritual drum circles of the middle-Mongolian tribes or something?

I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations. Like in little league some dads know that they have no skill in baseball so they stay in the bleachers or work the snack bar. But I had a dad who wanted to help me coach, that did not even own a glove. 

CAP Squadron Commanders vary greatly. When I was a Group Commander I had really great ones who got what they deserve and I had poor ones that got fired because not everyone has what it takes to be a Squadron Commander, even with multiple degrees or working in a cubicle for a Fortune 500 company.   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 24, 2013, 07:47:02 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 24, 2013, 07:31:22 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 23, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
I don't agree with limiting CAP officers to college grads.  We have to remember we are a volunteer organization, not a professional military.  People come and go at their pleasure.

Speaking for myself, I have extensive professional supervisor and management experience in the private sector.  I have never earned a college degree for various reasons.  Should I be barred from a command position simply because I don't have a piece of sheepskin proclaiming I spent an ungodly amount of money and four years of my life learning about ancient ritual drum circles of the middle-Mongolian tribes or something?

I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations. Like in little league some dads know that they have no skill in baseball so they stay in the bleachers or work the snack bar. But I had a dad who wanted to help me coach, that did not even own a glove. 

CAP Squadron Commanders vary greatly. When I was a Group Commander I had really great ones who got what they deserve and I had poor ones that got fired because not everyone has what it takes to be a Squadron Commander, even with multiple degrees or working in a cubicle for a Fortune 500 company.   8)

I think the point is included in your response: a 4-year degree does nothing to show if they are fit for command.  Some are, some aren't.  Same with those without degrees: some are fit for command, some aren't.  It isn't about the degree.  Requiring a degree is telling those without one that they are limited and unfit for command.  As someone without a degree that was decorated for performance while in a command position, I am an example of why we shouldn't go down that road.  I'm sure that there are many others.  At the same time, the worst commanders I've known personally had 4 or 6 year degrees.

Forget about dividing our our volunteers by degree.  Command positions should be chosen based on the best person available, and by having more people available you increase the chances of getting better people.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: THRAWN on October 24, 2013, 11:58:18 AM
"In reality, I think having no grade would be better than separating based on education.  Separation puts artificial limits on people.

I've always considered grade in CAP as little more than an acknowledgement of service - whether AD service or CAP service.  Actual authority rests with the positions we hold.  I haven't seen much confusion when I've described it that way." (emphasis mine)

Scott,
Exactly. That's the reason I've always been all for going the way of the CGAux when it comes to SM grade. Make the grade reflect the position. There are far too many LTCs staggering about who have little or no clue about even the basics of command or strategic planning, but get them in front of a broken IC7200 and they turn into Rain Man.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important. A college degree, while one of the requirements to become an officer, is not the main distinction between enlisted and officers. They both have different roles and are trained for different functions. But education is important for both.

That said, I doubt CAP will ever require a bachelor's degree to become an officer. But that doesn't mean education is not important to CAP. The reason we have PD, to include courses like SLS, CLS, RSC, etc. is so that our members can continue learning. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ol'fido on October 24, 2013, 01:06:55 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 23, 2013, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 23, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
If I ever attend a wing conference again I want to make sure Im an officer. I will not tolerate eating with enlisted types.  Perhaps we could have two banquets. Officers can have our banquet first while the unwashed enlisted serve us.  Then we can retire to the library and smoke cigars, listen to classicsl music and discuss world affairs while the enlisted have their banquet, chocked full of debautchery, alcohol and heavy metal music.  Silly enlisted. 
Hmmmm.... well, maybe that enlisted track wouldnt be too bad?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m3UMhcQGQBM/T3NUvkpvyOI/AAAAAAAALt0/U7tWzNngJ28/s1600/Ohne%2BTitel-168.jpg)

"I say, old chap, let us continue to discuss proper form usage and paperwork distribution while we savor a fine brandy while those CAP NCO's have their "fun".  Pip pip.  Cheerio."
"Bling them well up" as well.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 01:16:31 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

I have found the inverse to be true as well.

Being an "accomplishment" does not equal being "important".  There are thousands of people with who majored in Romance Languages with a minor in Early Latin History
who wil be happy to up-size your fries if you'd like.

CAP is supposed to be a performance culture, you start putting in the institutional bigotry and segregation of NCO/Officer degree/non-degree, etc., and it's dead.   
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on October 24, 2013, 01:33:06 PM
To assume that a CAP NCO is going to become the backbone of the organization is a dream.  Witness the US Army's failure during the Vietnam Conflict with the "Shake & Bake NCO Program".  They would identify promising young men in Basic and AIT Training cycles and route them to a 26 week long NCO school and upon completion send them off to Vietnam as E5 & a few E6 Combat Arms Squad Leaders.  It took many years after Vietnam for the NCO Corps to recover from that mess.

A good NCO is not a "book child" They have spent years becoming the expert, and the boots on the ground guy and master of their trade.   As a former Regimental Commander of mine was fond of stating "Officers command but the NCO's run".  Just how in the H*** does the CAP plan to do that?

CAP already has a meaningless officer rank structure based more on the GOB principal than anything else.  (Why else would a requirement for promotion include attendance at wing/regional conferences?  Go and Listen to empty speeches, eat a rubber chicken, hold a drink whether you actually drink it or not, but ya gotta be seen to get the ticket punched for the next promotion.)

I think it's about time to do away with all CAP rank across the board.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 01:34:15 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 01:16:31 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

I have found the inverse to be true as well.

Being an "accomplishment" does not equal being "important".  There are thousands of people with who majored in Romance Languages with a minor in Early Latin History
who wil be happy to up-size your fries if you'd like.

CAP is supposed to be a performance culture, you start putting in the institutional bigotry and segregation of NCO/Officer degree/non-degree, etc., and it's dead.

Now you're debating about whether all degrees are created equal; no they're not. And neither are all colleges or universities. That doesn't make having a degree less important. Degrees may not always be required, but that doesn't diminish their value.

But again, I've never suggested or even agree with that we should require degrees for CAP members. Neither did I suggested the division between NCO and officer, only that if we were going to have both, then their roles should be defined.

Your comment about CAP having a "performance culture" is interesting, as it's not that hard to get promoted in CAP. And once promoted, there's really no performance requirements to keep the grade, hence Lt Cols serving as snack officers under the command of 1st Lts.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 24, 2013, 03:22:06 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 24, 2013, 07:31:22 AM
I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations.

I agree 100%.  I will use myself as an example:  We (the wife and I) are childless.  As such, I have little experience with children.  For this reason, I feel that, at this point, I lack both the needed experience and training on being the leader of a composite squadron full of cadets.  Maybe in the future this will change, but at present I feel that this is the case.  So, I work at staff jobs and stick with the Senior side of things, assisting with the supervision of cadets.

Just another reason I think the Warrant Officer grades should be expanded and utilized, with the "commissioned" ranks (2nd Lieutenant and up) being reserved for actual command positions.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree.

That's because nobody who just put themselves into $40,000 worth of debt and can't find a job would be loathe to admit that maybe getting the Communications Degree was a bad idea.  (I would know, I've conducted employment interviews with a couple.)

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important.

Irreverent.  We are not the Air Force.  The Air Force is a paid career force.  We are an unpaid civilian volunteer force. 

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on October 24, 2013, 01:33:06 PM
To assume that a CAP NCO is going to become the backbone of the organization is a dream.  Witness the US Army's failure during the Vietnam Conflict with the "Shake & Bake NCO Program".  They would identify promising young men in Basic and AIT Training cycles and route them to a 26 week long NCO school and upon completion send them off to Vietnam as E5 & a few E6 Combat Arms Squad Leaders.  It took many years after Vietnam for the NCO Corps to recover from that mess.

Agreed.  I assumed that's why only those who were RealMilitary NCO's could become CAP NCO's.  One of our members was a Army First Sergeant, and wanted to become a NCO when he joined CAP.  But he was flat-out told that he would be more use as an officer and he wouldn't be able to progress as an NCO.  Hopefully the new program resolves this.
Title: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 04:07:22 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 03:22:06 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important.

Irreverent.  We are not the Air Force.  The Air Force is a paid career force.  We are an unpaid civilian volunteer force.

"Irreverent"? I think you meant "irrelevant". If so, I never suggested that we were the Air Force. I've put enough unpaid, volunteer hours into CAP to know that very well. But that doesn't invalidate my comments. If you're going to refute my comments, please don't take them out of context. Read the whole post.

Several other posters have implied that the main difference between an NCO and an officer is the college degree. I was clarifying that, while a college degree is required to get a commission, it is not the main difference between them. And I also stated that we have plenty of Air Force NCOs that have undergraduate and graduate degrees. Since I never, I repeat, never suggested that CAP officers should be required to have a college degree, I'm not sure why people keep implying that I did.

What I did do was defend post-high school education. If you don't agree that education is important, then that's your prerogative. Plenty of people, private companies and government agencies do agree. I never said it was the most important thing, only that it was important. But again, not important enough to make it a requirement for CAP, except for those positions/specialties requiring one (legal, chaplain, etc.).
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
All, as a current CAP NCO (former Navy Chief Petty Officer), and one who really wants to see this new program take off, let's look at this from another direction. I tend to agree that grade structure in a civilian volunteer organization can lead to unique situations that create difficulties, egos abound. Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization, especially when the organization has interaction with true military organizations on a regular basis. These individuals come to the CAP with very unique qualifications that don't readily surface in the civilian workplace. Why not identify, recognize these individuals, exploit there capabilities for the good of the organization and most important, provide a developmental process for their professional growth and accompanied recognition for the effort they do provide the organization. Yes, some of us don't have aspirations for command, but we provide a very valuable resource for commanders from a unique perspective gained by our military experience. Some have stated that Officers manage the process and NCO's make the process work. If you examine the current military structure, you may find that senior NCO's are now managing the process as well as making the process work.
I for one am quite proud of the military career that I am now retired from and enthusiastically look forward to continuing my tenure in the CAP as a Non-Commissioned Officer providing the best for the organization that I can, which incidentally, has NO limitations (command or otherwise) from my perspective. :clap:
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 24, 2013, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing;
Please note that every time I've made that statement it was qualified to specifically refer to predicting who will be a good leader.  That shouldn't diminish the value of education overall - that's not the purpose of most degrees.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 01:34:15 PM
But again, I've never suggested or even agree with that we should require degrees for CAP members. Neither did I suggested the division between NCO and officer, only that if we were going to have both, then their roles should be defined.
I believe we are in total agreement in the overall topic.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 24, 2013, 01:34:15 PM
Your comment about CAP having a "performance culture" is interesting, as it's not that hard to get promoted in CAP. And once promoted, there's really no performance requirements to keep the grade, hence Lt Cols serving as snack officers under the command of 1st Lts.
I don't really care about lower grades in command over higher.  When I see a Lt Col my thought is simply that they are a good resource of knowledge, not much else.  I look to other things to determine what they can do, like Specialty ratings and PD levels.  Grade is an acknowledgement of service, and I don't see the benefit of taking that acknowledgement away.  This is yet another necessary difference between us as a voluntary organization and the military as a way to motivate members.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 24, 2013, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization, especially when the organization has interaction with true military organizations on a regular basis.

Can a former NCO not stomach being a CAP officer and doing the same?

Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
These individuals come to the CAP with very unique qualifications that don't readily surface in the civilian workplace. Why not identify, recognize these individuals, exploit there capabilities for the good of the organization and most important, provide a developmental process for their professional growth and accompanied recognition for the effort they do provide the organization.

They have the same option I do - the CAP Officer Grades.


Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Yes, some of us don't have aspirations for command, but we provide a very valuable resource for commanders from a unique perspective gained by our military experience.

Most CAP officers don't have aspirations for command either.

Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Some have stated that Officers manage the process and NCO's make the process work. If you examine the current military structure, you may find that senior NCO's are now managing the process as well as making the process work.

In CAP we don't have this distinction, and we don't need it.

Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
I for one am quite proud of the military career that I am now retired from and enthusiastically look forward to continuing my tenure in the CAP as a Non-Commissioned Officer providing the best for the organization that I can, which incidentally, has NO limitations (command or otherwise) from my perspective. :clap:

I thank you for your service.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
For now at least.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Robert Hartigan on October 24, 2013, 04:58:47 PM
I am not clear on the specifics of the program because there is a void in the conventional wisdom of the general membership. As a point of clarification, the organization does not have any commissioned officers so, by default all officers are non-commissioned, right? On the surface, it appears the heirarchy of rank is the only noteworthy change, especially if Sergeants are allowed to command units. This all stirs the formation of more questions! And, unfortunately misgivings by the rank and file, many of which have been poured out here on this forum.

The discourse regarding college degrees and roles and levels of responsibility highlight a systemic problem that can't be solved with insignia. I have to believe there is substance behind this effort, but it is difficult to see vision without understanding the goal.

Before institutionalizing a new professional development stratum, I would have preferred to see a successful rewrite and launch of the uniform manual, or a fully deployed Organizational Excellance program with success stories, or a fully embraced safety program that engages the general membership in more than a perfunctory glance at PowerPoint slides.

Without program specifics like regulatory guidance on implementing, supporting and advancing as a NCO all the speculation is nor better than tilting at wind mills. As "officers" we must wait and see and trust the leadership has the best interests of the organization in mind with this program roll out.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 24, 2013, 04:59:25 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
For now at least.

Quote
The new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" โ€“ 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community, not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.  


HAHAHAHA!
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)

Quote[. . .] For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the
military grades of E-5 through E-9 [. . .]
So in the future, it appears, new members will be able to "enlist" in CAP or "Commission."
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 24, 2013, 05:15:17 PM
QuoteThe new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" โ€“ 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community, not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.  

Now we know what the holdup on the new 39-1 is.  They're going to let the details on the uniforms be determined by social media.

"Honor Guard shoulder cords and ascots will be required with the ABU uniform.  Like if you agree.  Share if you disagree."

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: a2capt on October 24, 2013, 05:28:21 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 05:15:17 PMNow we know what the holdup on the new 39-1 is.  They're going to let the details on the uniforms be determined by social media.
Administered by the same people who proposed separating our social media use in ways that potentially violate the ToS of the various portals not to mention making things just a total PITA.

That's going to go so well. ;)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PMWhy have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization,

Agreed.

Are NCO's only capable or providing their skills and abilities when they are wearing stripes?

Would the above not also apply to NCO's success in assisting private businesses or other volunteer organizations like the ARC or the BSA?  In all of those cases your skills
and experience would be sought with no connection to the uniform whatsoever.

Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 05:47:16 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
For now at least.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 05:05:21 PM
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx (http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx)


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 05:54:59 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 05:47:16 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
For now at least.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 05:05:21 PM
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx (http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx)


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.


But, from the CAP letter, that will happen.  Just not yet.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 06:03:12 PM
Quote from: http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience.

Were they barred from membership before?  Were there limitations in the duties they could perform?

Quote from: http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135
The new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" โ€“ 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community,

213 is a "record number"?

There 60,000 members in CAP and last time I cared to look ~3500 members of that Facebook page.

That means that only ~6% of the membership that bothers with Facebook could be further bothered to
care enough to click "like", and as a reminder, there's no "dislike" button on Facebook, however not
all the comments there are positive.

Quote from: http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135
...not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.

What community of new members?  If anything this has the potential to make things worse in regards to recruiting military NCOs and our standing in the military community.
One thing is pretty clear, most NCOs are pretty serious about bearing, discipline, and keeping their people in line.  If there's one place that former military struggle
in the CAP paradigm it's this issue.

If we start some sort of concerted effert to bring NCOs into some "new" CAP, and they get a load of how most unit function, we've may have lost that person for good.

And without some concerted push to bring them in, there is no "community of potential new members".



Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 24, 2013, 06:05:45 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 05:54:59 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 05:47:16 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 24, 2013, 04:54:00 PM
Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135 (http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135)
For now at least.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 05:05:21 PM
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx (http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx)


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.


But, from the CAP letter, that will happen.  Just not yet.

So first we'll make a lot of Chiefs....and no Indians.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PMWhy have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization,

Agreed.

Are NCO's only capable or providing their skills and abilities when they are wearing stripes?

Would the above not also apply to NCO's success in assisting private businesses or other volunteer organizations like the ARC or the BSA?  In all of those cases your skills
and experience would be sought with no connection to the uniform whatsoever.

Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".
1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.
2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!
3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.
4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.
5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end!

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: MSG Mac on October 24, 2013, 06:29:45 PM
I chose to remain an Officer, rather than a SMSgt because there was no "real" program or progression for NCO's. When HQ finally publishes a new 35-5 and 50-17, I will reconsider my options.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".
1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.
2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!
3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.
4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.
5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end![/quote]

Everything above is either already open to them as "regular members", #2 is too, but the attitude is detrimental to CAP's mission, and frankly a sideways
insult to NCOs. 

I suspect #5 is the only unique value with this proposal.  And comes not from the stripes, which I care little about - if someone wants to
kids themselves about the situation, but is still holding his corner, it doesn't matter to me, what hacks me is the wasted effort.  We get
SeCAF-level attention and want to discuss what is essentially a uniform issue?  Pogo continues to be a prophet without equal.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.
If you honestly believe this is bashing, then you're making the argument and you really don't "get" the issue.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: johnnyb47 on October 24, 2013, 06:39:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

The main point I see from Eclipse in all of his posts going back 4 pages (I didnt go back all the way... got bored with rereading the thread) has been "What need does this meet, what true purpose does this serve or what problem does this fix?"
I see no NCO bashing. If someone could provide a reasonable answer I'm sure he'd just say, 'OK'.
It's just not there or hasn't yet been made apparent.

Honestly... what purpose does an NCO progrqam serve in CAP?
It is no longer about an allowance for those that earned their stripes in the RM to continue wear with pride as we could soon be looking at new NCO's minted right within the CAP program without PM Service.
Will YOUR NCO stripes on a CAP uniform mean as much to you if someone achieves the same grade and does so solely based off of 3 years service in CAP and CAP professional development courses?
I mean no disrespect and I thank all of you with Prior Military Experience for your service. I really do.
I'm just not sure we understand the goal of the program.... why fix THIS when it isn't necessarily the CAP issue that needs the most attention right now? What does it really do for CAP?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 24, 2013, 06:48:35 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.
So, kind of like it is now.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!
Which they can just as easily do now.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.
No more than they do now, but good luck with that.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.
I'm guessing you mean "how", but still, no.  We aren't the "real military" and really shouldn't be.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end!
Okay, this is good! :P

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.
I don't see any of this as "bashing" NCOs.  If I see someone sporting SNCO stripes I look at them much as I do someone wearing a silver leaf - someone that has significant knowledge and experience.

Unfortunately, we still have absolutely no details, but from the hints we're being given the only change is some sort of progression mechanism for NCOs.  It doesn't look like their role or purpose in CAP will change in any real way.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ol'fido on October 24, 2013, 06:59:02 PM
Just my .02.

NCOs vs Officers- Let's be realistic about what CAP asks of it "officers". 99.9% of our "officers" are not involved in strategic planning, organizational management, or program development in the sense that their AD counterparts are. Most of our "officers" are doing the same thing that adult members of the boy scouts, Rotary Club, and American Legion are doing on a day to day basis.

What exactly is it that CAP "Officers" do on a regular basis that couldn't be done by any adult with average intelligence, good character, and an equal amount of training?

The same could be said of our PD requirements for "officers". Are they intellectually challenging beyond the capacity of anyone without a commission or degree. I don't think so. CAP is not something that requires an advanced degree to understand. We can debate PME equivalencies for a while but it boils down to the point that an entry level NCO course in any of the services has more required academic and training requirements than all of CAP's PD requirements for seniors combined. So that is an "academic" discussion. Pun intended.

Yes, anybody who is a good NCO in CAP could just as easily be a good officer in CAP. But what does having an NCO program in CAP cost us? A few more pages in 39-1, some extra bandwidth on Vanguard, some ink on paper. It's not like we have to pay anybody or pay to house them.

What role will they fill in CAP? The same role as any other person in CAP with a heartbeat and a membership card. They can't command? How many of our seniors move up to wing or even group command? If they do that as an NCO, they can take the rank and after their tour retain it or return to their  NCO rank. It's just a process. If it happens, it happens. It may never come up. If it does, that is what we have the BOG, NHQ, the Command Council, and all these other high end management groups to figure out.

Does it affect our image with the public or with our ES partners? The public in general doesn't know or doesn't care. They see a military uniform and think military. You say you are a sergeant in CAP? The public hears that and thinks "Great, I'm glad we have people like that in this country". They don't think "what the heck is CAP doing with sergeants."  Our ES partners? We have more problems with them than a few extra stripes running around. We need to worry more about marketing our capabilities and making sure we can perform up to the level that we advertise. If someone is a seen as a "tool" by one of our ES partners, they won't care what rank he is wearing. If LtCol Bagodunuts is a "tool" and SSgt Sqaredaway is seen as knowledgeable and professional, they will deal with the SSgt and tell the LTCol to sit in a corner and don't touch anything or better yet leave.

If you have been in the military, you have known NCOs who were complete screwups and officers as well. You have also seen NCOs and Officers that you would trust with anything.

It's the person. Not the rank.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: johnnyb47 on October 24, 2013, 07:16:22 PM
With everything else that needs our attention in Civil Air Patrol, "Lets have an NCO PD Program because we CAN.... even if it serves no purpose in it's current form." seems to me to be the wrong move at this point in time.
Even if this opens the doors to a potential 10,000 new members we at the unit level will be questioned heavily when we are unable to retain them due to a lack of any official guidance as to how to USE NCO's any differently than we do Commissioned officers. With nothing to do they will come and go very quickly.... as with any member now that doesn't have a clearly defined role and direction within a short time after joining.

If you give me 10 new squadron members (that I wouldn't have gotten without the NCO Corps), tell me a way to use them that makes sense AND keeps them interested in the program beyond the 1 year mark and do it in such a way that doesn't alienate the current membership to the point of quitting... well then I guess the rest doesn't really matter much to me.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: a2capt on October 24, 2013, 07:19:17 PM
I'd still like to know the rationale of why the program was cancelled back when .. Though that's probably gone to the grave..
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 24, 2013, 06:39:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

The main point I see from Eclipse in all of his posts going back 4 pages (I didnt go back all the way... got bored with rereading the thread) has been "What need does this meet, what true purpose does this serve or what problem does this fix?"
I see no NCO bashing. If someone could provide a reasonable answer I'm sure he'd just say, 'OK'.
It's just not there or hasn't yet been made apparent.

What need does it meet?  The need of CAP NCO's to have a progression program. 
See...that the problem with this thread and NCO bashing.   Everyone is crying about the time and effort put into it.....but what's the harm?
Why can't we do things just because we want to?  It is not making anyone do anything else.....that they did not have to do before...i.e. no added work load.  It is not making the already useless CAP rank system any more useless. 

QuoteHonestly... what purpose does an NCO progrqam serve in CAP?
The same purpose as the CAP field grade officer program in CAP.

QuoteIt is no longer about an allowance for those that earned their stripes in the RM to continue wear with pride as we could soon be looking at new NCO's minted right within the CAP program without PM Service.
Will YOUR NCO stripes on a CAP uniform mean as much to you if someone achieves the same grade and does so solely based off of 3 years service in CAP and CAP professional development courses?
I mean no disrespect and I thank all of you with Prior Military Experience for your service. I really do.
I'm just not sure we understand the goal of the program.... why fix THIS when it isn't necessarily the CAP issue that needs the most attention right now? What does it really do for CAP?
Why do YOU need to under that the goal of the program?   Really, why?   I say this because there is a lot of heart ache about this when A) No one has seen the program yet.  And B) It is not (as far as we know) going to change anything except give CAP NCO's a way to progress.

When NCO's say we think we can do out job's better being NCO's.....the argument is "why can't you do it as an officer?"   And I counter because I can do it as and NCO.

It doesn't matter.   Assuming that nothing else changes in the way CAP does business.....then all that it means is that maybe....more former NCO's will choose to keep their stripes instead of going up the officer path.

Bottom line effect to CAP?    ZERO.   Costs CAP nothing.....and it is more or less just a surface change.

So...what's the problem?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 24, 2013, 07:16:22 PM
With everything else that needs our attention in Civil Air Patrol, "Lets have an NCO PD Program because we CAN.... even if it serves no purpose in it's current form." seems to me to be the wrong move at this point in time.
Even if this opens the doors to a potential 10,000 new members we at the unit level will be questioned heavily when we are unable to retain them due to a lack of any official guidance as to how to USE NCO's any differently than we do Commissioned officers. With nothing to do they will come and go very quickly.... as with any member now that doesn't have a clearly defined role and direction within a short time after joining.

If you give me 10 new squadron members (that I wouldn't have gotten without the NCO Corps), tell me a way to use them that makes sense AND keeps them interested in the program beyond the 1 year mark and do it in such a way that doesn't alienate the current membership to the point of quitting... well then I guess the rest doesn't really matter much to me.
You work on the problems you can fix.  The NUC is working on uniforms, the ES guys are working on 60-1, the CMSgt CAP was working on the CAP NCO program.   It is not like this is going to affect any of the other problems in CAP and it is not like it pulled any manpower or money from those other issues.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: johnnyb47 on October 24, 2013, 08:51:52 PM
A PD program to allow current NCO's to advance makes perfect sense to me.
I take no issue with that. As current CAP NCO's fill the same needs and roles as CAP officers why not allow them to progress using the current PD system with very minor tweaks? Seems a no-brainer to me. If they serve the same function and do the same things have them learn the same stuff!

As I said in my later post, (to paraphrase) "Once I know all the how's the rest of it doesn't really matter to me. All systems go."

Why do I need to understand it? Because at the squadron level I will be asked to implement it, support it and answer for it should it fail. Someone high above me will receive the accolades should it be a resounding success.
I may be a volunteer but I do so with pride and accept responsibility for when something doesnt work right.... even if the decision was never mine to begin with.

QuoteWhat's the problem?
I don't have a problem.
I never said I had a problem.
I merely asked questions.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
What need does it meet?  The need of CAP NCO's to have a progression program. 
This isn't even >your< assertion about the program, let alone national's.  On a number of occasions you've asserted that
being a CAP-NCO gives you some sort of force-powers to concentrate on just the narrow road you feel like
being involved in, disavowing any pretense towards command or leadership because "I'm just an NCO".

A) - That's pretty much already the case for every member, regardless of grade.  Everyone is free to choose how much
they want to volunteer, so long as they live up to whatever commitments they make, but there's no "class" within a
volunteer organization like CAP that gets to simply say "we don't do that", and to try and implement one is the
first step towards "breaking" CAP once and for all.

B) - If you think creating another way to segregate an already divided membership into "doers" and "managers" is a "good idea",
then you've some how missed the lessons on the volunteer mentality you should have received to date based on your CAP service.

Quote from: lordmonar on October 24, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
Bottom line effect to CAP?    ZERO.   Costs CAP nothing.....and it is more or less just a surface change.

So...what's the problem?

Anything with ZERO effect to CAP (or any organization), should not receive effort or attention, especially in the case where
the organization is struggling to maintain viability and in some quarters its very existence.  Apple Computer
may well have time to dabble in things with "Zero effect".  CAP does not.

This certainly will cost CAP thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.
You don't create an entire tree of a professional development program for "free".

Just the creation of the new insignia will likely be a few grand.
(Consider, also, that USAF NCOs who have been wearing the same jackets and shirts will now need to go an buy new ones.  $$$)

At 2-3 times the membership we have today, and without all the empty shirts, this idea might be workable.
I've said for years that we don't allow members just to "be members" - in some cases FNGs are
wing staffers with a director's job before their Level I clears, then they flail around in the deep end until they
either figure it out or quit.

But absent a wholesale change in the officer grades and PD, even those "doers" are going to be at least butter bars,
if not CFI-Captains, etc.  So there's still no enlisted corps to "care and feed", nor will they ever need "care and feeding",
since it's entirely likely that the new slick-sleeve AB you signed up make 6-figures at his "real job" and isn't interested
in your care.

Between all the unfunded personnel mandates, constant uptick in member expectations without increased rewards,
and seemingly being lead by the lawyers, actuaries and finance people, I wonder sometimes which Civil Air Patrol
they belong to.

Because the one I'm in has units struggling for viability, triple-assigned members just to meet unfunded personnel mandates,
and it constantly asking it's self "Why I am."

The typical NCO with some leadership ability and useful military experience is going to be welcomed into most units with open arms
and high hopes, but if they start spouting any "I don't do that, I'm an NCO" nonsense, they are going to be either laughed at or marginalized
by the rest of the unit who "does do that".
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 24, 2013, 09:08:53 PM
Unless there is a meaningful actual program to go along with this change, I think Eclipse hit it right on the head earlier in that this is nothing other than a uniform issue. 

The "program" will need to be something more than a way for NCOs to get promoted within CAP if it is to be of any use at all.  I'll laugh my socks off if it does nothing other than incorporate the senior member levels found in the current PD program.  If it does, or is only a variant of the CAP officer program then this will be exposed as nothing more than an ego project. 

I've said before that I would probably be on-board for a massive restructuring of our PD program that involved starting out EVERY senior member as an Airman no matter what their former military rank, education, or skill set and making EVERYONE progress through the program with no exceptions.  Of course, we could do something like that with our current officer-focused system that would work just about as well, and I'd be fine with that too. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: AirAux on October 24, 2013, 09:48:47 PM
Seems to me that this is going to be a giant CF for a long time.  I have been in CAP for over 30 years and I have never run across a retired or active NCO that wanted to join CAP that didn't want to be an officer..  Do we really want Gunny types attempting to run the program with their 150% military image discipline macho?  Should be interesting.  Especially since the CIC is going to make Marines wear little tiny French unisex headgear and the Air Force Academy is going to remove God from their Pledge..  We can't get enough volunteers by offering everyone Officer status now all of a sudden we are going to get volunteers by letting them come in as Corporals?  I love our military, but in my field, I see a lot of our young soldiers and some are not coming back well from their 2,3,4 tours overseas.  We haven't done right by them and and unfortunately some of them are not in the shape to adapt to the type of organization we offer.  Our soldiers are not the typical soldiers we had in the past.  They are fighters and that is about it.  They are not cooks or truck drivers or supply sarge's.  They are all used up when they come back and may not understand a laid back program with children that you can't yell at or tell stories about holding your buddies face on while trying to get him back to the HumVee.  Maybe we can restructure our program to help them.  That would be a noble  endeavor.  I am concerned.  However, I am old, maybe my fears are groundless, maybe you young snots can figure it out.  Peace.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
I'm not for dissuading anyone to joining, especially people with relevent experience looking to help, but
how many NCO's have we seen just on this board who joined CAP and the first thing they intend to do is "fix things"?

We need your help, not your repair.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 24, 2013, 10:20:38 PM
Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 24, 2013, 10:25:52 PM
For those of us that are multi hatted, are we going to need multiple uniforms.  Today I'm Maj Seng, Commander; next weekend at the SAREX, I'm SMSgt Seng GTL, or is it 1st LT Seng- GBD.

I'm so confused. . .
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 24, 2013, 10:29:52 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 24, 2013, 10:20:38 PM
Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"
Quote from: News Release on eServices
In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels โ€“ squadron, group, wing, region or national โ€“ except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.
Looks like command positions.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 24, 2013, 10:49:37 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 24, 2013, 10:29:52 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 24, 2013, 10:20:38 PM
Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"
Quote from: News Release on eServices
In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels โ€“ squadron, group, wing, region or national โ€“ except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.
Looks like command positions.


So...everything officers can do now, including not serving in command.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this only got the light of day because the current Nat.CC is a former NCO. And the stuff about "being the backbone" of the organization, just makes it sound like our own leadership doesn't know how CAP works. Wonderful.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 25, 2013, 02:52:58 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Depending on amount of NCOs who switch, there would be administrative work to deal with their new/different/PD
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 25, 2013, 03:48:28 AM
While they didn't specifically mentioned it in the news release, I would assume that other positions such as vice or deputy commander and chief of staff would also be reserved for officers. Heck, I would throw in the deputy chiefs of staff and directors in the mix.

If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program. As it stands now, with the little information we have, this just seems like a mechanism for current or future CAP NCOs to get promoted. I doubt that this alone will transform CAP NCOs into the "backbone" of the organization. Unfortunately, at this point, it's too early to tell.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: NC Hokie on October 25, 2013, 04:17:21 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders

Eh, "that guy" (you know, the one who trades in his railroad tracks for some up and down chevrons) most likely wasn't interested in command anyway, so the only appreciable effect is a few seconds saved by not asking if he wants the job.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 05:10:49 AM
Last time I checked CAPWATCH, something like 10 squadrons would lose their CC's, not exactly a big deal, unless you're in one of those
units and/or one of those CC's.

"Thanks for all the hard work, now go care and feed the enlisted."

"There are no enlisted."

"What?  Sorry, I can' hear you over the noise that huge community of new members is making."

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 05:43:18 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 25, 2013, 03:48:28 AM
If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program.
It wouldn't work for CAP.  The enlisted/officer paradigm of the military cannot function in a voluntary service organization.  We do not have the membership to support it.  The moment you tell people they aren't good enough to be an officer you'll start hemorrhaging members.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Storm Chaser on October 25, 2013, 11:09:21 AM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 05:43:18 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 25, 2013, 03:48:28 AM
If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program.
It wouldn't work for CAP.  The enlisted/officer paradigm of the military cannot function in a voluntary service organization.  We do not have the membership to support it.  The moment you tell people they aren't good enough to be an officer you'll start hemorrhaging members.

I would agree that the NCO Program as it currently stands and with the proposed changes (and without having all the details of what those changes are) seem unnecessary at best. That said, I don't agree with your comment that we will lose lots of members if they can't be officers. Is that the reason you joined? Then perhaps we don't need you. Sorry!

This is a voluntary organization as you've asserted several times. We don't (or shouldn't) join "to be an officer", but to serve our communities. The officer paradigm in CAP sometimes doesn't make any sense. Officers, in most organizations, are in charge or manage things (see quote below). That's not always the case in CAP. Within the Cadet Programs, having senior member officers makes sense. Everywhere else, not really unless you're in a position of authority and/or responsibility.

Quote from: Merriam-Webster
ofยทfiยทcer   noun   \ˈรค-fə-sər, ˈȯ-\

     : a member of a police force

     : a person who has an important position in a company, organization, or government

     : a person who has a position of authority or command in the military

You've mentioned several times that we're not the military; I agree. But yet, we want to wear military style grades and titles that, to everyone else outside of CAP (and even to some of our members) mean something, but not in CAP. Grade should NOT be a form of recognition; that's why you have awards. It should NOT be a way to show professional development; that's why you have Levels. Grade should be there to show the type of responsibility you're capable of assuming in the organization. When someone gets promoted to the next grade, the first thing that should be asked is if this member is ready to assumed increased responsibilities at that level. If we can't or don't want to do that as an organization, then we're just playing "officers" and "wannabes" (no disrespect intended to all who have earned their grade through hard work in CAP).

I joined CAP because I wanted to volunteer and continue serving my country. I'm an officer because in addition to progressing in the organization, I have assume increased responsibility at every opportunity or when there has been a need. I didn't join to be an officer and wouldn't leave is suddenly I couldn't be one anymore. I think that could be said of most of our hard working volunteers.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 25, 2013, 01:43:50 PM
On my way home from a meeting I stopped for gas. The gas station owner and the shoplifting kid both assumed I was a cop, leading to a hilarious chain of events that played out over the next two days.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 25, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
But USAF was starting to change it to an uniform thread!

Go ahead, USAF, tell us! I am hanging onto my sofa. Tell us, why did they think you were a cop? What happened over the next two days?!!

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: jeders on October 25, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

Well, if we use Eclipse's line of reasoning, this whole program is nothing but a uniform issue. So it's kind of a uniform thread in disguise.

Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
But USAF was starting to change it to an uniform thread!

Go ahead, USAF, tell us! I am hanging onto my sofa. Tell us, why did they think you were a cop? What happened over the next two days?!!

Flyer

Yes, please do.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 02:39:44 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

They will be similar to the USAF stripes but have a prop instead of a star and sat "CAP" - most likely identical to those "test"
stripes we saw a few years ago that I can't find the photo of.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: MacGruff on October 25, 2013, 04:51:07 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:43:50 PM
On my way home from a meeting I stopped for gas. The gas station owner and the shoplifting kid both assumed I was a cop, leading to a hilarious chain of events that played out over the next two days.

Well?

Are you going to roll out the whole story?

Maybe in a new thread??? 8) 8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 25, 2013, 04:52:10 PM
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
But USAF was starting to change it to an uniform thread!

Go ahead, USAF, tell us! I am hanging onto my sofa. Tell us, why did they think you were a cop? What happened over the next two days?!!

Flyer

Yes, please do.

At a computer, so I can type this whole saga up.

I was on the way home after the meeting, and running on empty. Not wanting to pump gas in the morning when it is freezing, I went to the closest gas station to my house. But on the way, the wife gave me a call, and since we hadn't eaten dinner, she said to stop by McDonalds for some Crispy Chicken Southwest Salads (Yum!). So I had to reroute to a gas station that was not on the way, but a quarter mile past my home. Pulled into drive through, and they told me it would be a few minutes for the salads. Told them I'm going to go get gas and walk in to pick up the order (this is a McShell gas station). To get into the McDonalds I had to go through the station, and while walking in noticed the owner talking to a kid, asking him "where you live", etc. Figured kid was busted trying to steal, but none of my business. This is where the story really begins.

The owner turned to me (wearing BBDUs, with Field Jacket, nothing on it but name/CAP tapes, grade/CAP cutouts and the flag), and asked me what to do. "Kid says his parents kicked him out from home". So I asked him, how old is he, was told 15. Asked him where he lives, was told next town over. Knowing that no shelter will take a minor, and parents can't kick out a minor, I told the owner to call the local PD and they would take him home (or hand off to the PD in the next town). This is where I made my mistake. I believed the store owner did his due diligence.  He said he won't get the kid in trouble for trying to steal, said he has a "one strike" get out of free card. Nice guy, really. I got my food, and took it back to the car/finished pumping gas. In the mean time, he did what I suggested, and called the cops, even let the kid talk to the cops. I came back in, saw that the kid was holding a bag of chips, which I assumed the owner let him take. Offered to pay for the food, but the owner said he would cover it. Like I said, nice guy. I went to an ATM in the store and got some cash. Wrote my number and name on the receipt, and gave the cash/receipt to the kid, telling him to keep the money as an emergency stash, in case he gets into trouble with his parents again. Told him if he really gets into trouble, I live in the area and he can call me. Gave him the speech about not stealing, how people are usually willing to help, yadda yadda. Knowing my wife was waiting at home, I left him with the gas station owner and went home.

At home I relayed the story to my wife, and not twenty minutes later, I'm getting a call from a 224 area code (typically cellphones in our area). I look at the phone, look at my wife, and answer. On the phone is an angry woman (I thought it was kind of quick for the cops to get him home). She asked me who I was, and I asked her who was calling. She identified herself and asked how I know her son, and I was a bit dodgy saying I was just a person who ran into him at a gas station. She told me that if I don't tell her how I know her son, she would pass on my info to the police, to which I said go ahead. Realizing (I guess) that she is at an impasse, she calmed down a bit, and asked again, nicely. I told her that I was getting gas at the station, and was just a passerby. She asked me if I gave her son money, to which I said yes. Here she relayed the story.

He wasn't kicked out of home. He lives in a home about as nice as mine, in my town, and goes to my former high school. Earlier in the day, a "delinquent friend" and him stole liquor from a store, and were chased by cops through a corn field, but got away. At the time of the call, he was being held at our local PD for possession of alcohol as a minor, as well as the earlier theft, and his parent's having tried to file a missing persons report  (it's the suburbs, kid was gone for a few hours).  Here she relayed that he was telling her and the cops that a "Police officer gave me the money". Of course, like the boy who cried wolf, no one believed this kid as all the cops were looking for him that day. At first I didn't quite get why he would come up with such a dumb lie either, and then of course I looked down at what I was wearing, and briefly explained to her that while he was incorrect about who I was, I did wear a uniform and I suppose it could be confused for a PD uniform. This, to me explained why the kid looked so defeated in the convenience store. He thought he was done. I'm sure he was even more confused when I up and left the store!

I made arrangements with the mother to get my money back, and met the father last night. He told me the full story: Stole four bottles of liquor (I assume vodka), and an orange juice at a Walgreens. Went next door to a Starbucks, and got cups to drink it out of. After drinking a bottle between the two of them, they went to a Sun Foods (expensive tastes!) to steal food to eat. They almost made it out of the store, but were stopped. They dropped the food and ran out of the store. This is where the cops were called (and the Walgreens, aware of the theft had called them earlier to report it as well). FIFTEEEN cops chased these kids, some through the earlier mentioned cornfields, but lost track of them.  The cornfield was quite close to the gas station so I guess when the kids split up, his kid ended up at the gas station, and ended trying to steal there as well!

Now the most messed up part of this, was the gas station owner. While I think he's nice for not calling the cops on a first offense, he was going to let the kid go, despite HIM seeing the alcohol in the kids backpack (and smelling it on him when he was up close, talking to him), and hearing the story of him getting kicked out. He was just going to let him go. That is, until a "cop" came into the station and told him that he needs to call the police station to take the kid home. J If the kid didn't come up with that dumb lie, he would probably leave the station and either make it home, get picked up along the way, or try to go elsewhere on his little rampage.

From this episode I learned a few lessons:

I should never assume someone else did his due diligence (apparently when asked where in the next town over the kid lived, he couldn't give an answer to the store owner...red flag much?)
I'm too nice.
People really don't know a thing about uniforms, or how to read nametapes.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JC004 on October 26, 2013, 03:09:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...

I'd think the distance learning NCO courses would be a near certainty as part of the program.

I just don't see a massive NCO corps forming.  If the cost of adding a new ribbon with Vanguard is anything like the cost of adding a new patch to the catalog, and assuming the 6% sales kickback to CAP with a small NCO corps, I'd say it isn't worth adding a ribbon for just NCO training.  If we needed a ribbon for PD, I'd probably support the idea of a single CAP training ribbon.  Or make the Membership Ribbon into a Training Ribbon (since it's already somewhat like an AF Training Ribbon, essentially...but authorize attachments in CAP's case.  Just an idea.  I would like to make a number of revisions to the CAP ribbons, and I have some specific ideas for those - I'd like to see my consolidated awards ribbon and community service ribbon requirements, but training and levels should be addressed at some point - especially if the NCO program varies a lot on levels).
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...

Does the ACA send their Adult members to Army courses?  Does the CGAux send it's member to any CG schools?  With as competitive as the AF is getting for promotions this will be highly unlikely.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: PHall on October 26, 2013, 04:31:25 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...


Not going to frickin' happen unless CAP want's to pay for it. Those course slots are not free.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 26, 2013, 04:34:16 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2013, 04:31:25 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...


Not going to frickin' happen unless CAP want's to pay for it. Those course slots are not free.

More likely the costs will be borne by the NCO.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 04:47:26 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 26, 2013, 04:34:16 AM
More likely the costs will be borne by the NCO.

Not gonna happen there is a backlog of folks to get through, so AETC is not going to open slots up for CAP.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JC004 on October 26, 2013, 05:26:33 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 04:47:26 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 26, 2013, 04:34:16 AM
More likely the costs will be borne by the NCO.

Not gonna happen there is a backlog of folks to get through, so AETC is not going to open slots up for CAP.

With CAP's already-existing authorization to take Air Force courses, for in-person courses, the rule is it can't be at the Air Force's expense and it's Space-Available.  So you're on standby for X course and it's not practical if you don't live close by (or can't fly/stay away on a whim).
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 26, 2013, 05:51:41 AM
ALS, NCOA and the SNCOA are all offered via distance education......so yes maybe these courses may open up for CAP NCOs.....and NO....there is very little possibility that a CAP NCO would ever go in-residence....(although as pointed out......the process is in place to make it happen....if there were a space available, and someone other then  the USAF paid for it.).
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: PHall on October 26, 2013, 06:15:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2013, 05:51:41 AM
ALS, NCOA and the SNCOA are all offered via distance education......so yes maybe these courses may open up for CAP NCOs.....and NO....there is very little possibility that a CAP NCO would ever go in-residence....(although as pointed out......the process is in place to make it happen....if there were a space available, and someone other then  the USAF paid for it.).

ALS is not offered via Distance Education.  Even in the Guard and Reserve it's done in residence only.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 06:48:16 AM
I can tell you for NCOA and SNCOA there will not be space available.  There is a back ltog of TSgt's that still need to get in and the same with SNCOA there are plenty of SMSgts and MSgt's who need to get in.  Also has changed it's policy on Course 14 to you have to be a MSgt now to even enroll.  And are you really wanting to burden the academies with having to learn 39 with as jacked as it is?  How about formations when someone wearing G/W or heaven forbid the polo will stick out.  What do you do when hypothetically you have an AD SSgt who happend to be a CAP MSgt or even SMSgt going to the SNCOA does he/she get credit for it as part of their AD PME? 

Before we consider AF PME for a fledgling program let's get it off the ground first and working before trying to get any fringe benefits from ma blue. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 26, 2013, 07:10:13 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2013, 06:15:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2013, 05:51:41 AM
ALS, NCOA and the SNCOA are all offered via distance education......so yes maybe these courses may open up for CAP NCOs.....and NO....there is very little possibility that a CAP NCO would ever go in-residence....(although as pointed out......the process is in place to make it happen....if there were a space available, and someone other then  the USAF paid for it.).

ALS is not offered via Distance Education.  Even in the Guard and Reserve it's done in residence only.
http://www.ang.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123346812 (http://www.ang.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123346812)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 26, 2013, 07:17:05 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Maybe the ability to attend USAF NCO professional development training courses...

Maybe the development of of CAP specific NCO professional development courses and the cooresponding NCOPD ribbon/medal...

Does the ACA send their Adult members to Army courses?  Does the CGAux send it's member to any CG schools?  With as competitive as the AF is getting for promotions this will be highly unlikely.

Don't know what ACA is.

Yes members of the USCGAux can and do attend USCG schools quite regularly... subject to funding and space available seating at the schools themselves.

CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses?  :-\
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: BillB on October 26, 2013, 10:25:58 AM
CAP officers can NOT attend any of the USAF schools in residence. Air War College is only offered to CAP via corrospondance. The reasons given are space availablity and many require security clearances. At the same time some of the sections of the various schools are open with permissions but credit is not given. Add to that that a college degree is required to enroll, and to many CAP members are not eligible.
The SNCOA at Tyndall AFB told me they might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 CAP NCOs in the program, but how many could afford to pay for housing and meals for the length of the Academy?

Bill Breeze
Air War College 1974
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 05:01:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 07:17:05 AM
CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses?  :-\

We don't have SLS we have SOS, and there is a significant cost for the PME courses.  I am sure the average member does not have the disposable funds for such a trip.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:24:59 PM
Quote from: SMSgt. Grosvenor on October 24, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
All, as a current CAP NCO (former Navy Chief Petty Officer), and one who really wants to see this new program take off, let's look at this from another direction. I tend to agree that grade structure in a civilian volunteer organization can lead to unique situations that create difficulties, egos abound. Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization, especially when the organization has interaction with true military organizations on a regular basis. These individuals come to the CAP with very unique qualifications that don't readily surface in the civilian workplace. Why not identify, recognize these individuals, exploit there capabilities for the good of the organization and most important, provide a developmental process for their professional growth and accompanied recognition for the effort they do provide the organization. Yes, some of us don't have aspirations for command, but we provide a very valuable resource for commanders from a unique perspective gained by our military experience. Some have stated that Officers manage the process and NCO's make the process work. If you examine the current military structure, you may find that senior NCO's are now managing the process as well as making the process work.
I for one am quite proud of the military career that I am now retired from and enthusiastically look forward to continuing my tenure in the CAP as a Non-Commissioned Officer providing the best for the organization that I can, which incidentally, has NO limitations (command or otherwise) from my perspective. :clap:

Welcome aboard and thanks for sharing   8)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt?  ;)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Garibaldi on October 26, 2013, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt?  ;)
Will we put the NCO stripes on the ABUs?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 12:44:42 AM
Quote from: BillB on October 26, 2013, 10:25:58 AM
CAP officers can NOT attend any of the USAF schools in residence. Air War College is only offered to CAP via correspondence. The reasons given are space availability and many require security clearances. At the same time some of the sections of the various schools are open with permissions but credit is not given. Add to that that a college degree is required to enroll, and to many CAP members are not eligible.
The SNCOA at Tyndall AFB told me they might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 CAP NCOs in the program, but how many could afford to pay for housing and meals for the length of the Academy?

Bill Breeze
Air War College 1974

Where did "residence" come into the discussion? Not all USAF officers attend courses in "residence" either. It is the ability to enroll and complete the training... be it distance learning, in residence, or some form of "road show"... is the point we're really discussing.

And are sure about that CAP officers never attend "in residence" training with the USAF? So if I told you I know people that have attended USAF courses, in residence, as CAP officers, are they lying? Am I lying? Or, are you misinformed?  :-\

Where there is a will, there is a way. If given the opportunity I am sure that there are many members, both Officers and NCOs, that would find the time and the money to attend these courses, even on short notice.

Happens all the time in USCGAux, so how hard can it be for CAP members to do the same thing?

Simple put... a CAP member apply, if accepted by that school or course, gets put on a "wait status", if an actual military member drops outs or they have unassigned course seats, the CAP member gets notified and gets to attend. Of course travel, lodging and meals are on the student.

Not an impossible task to accomplish and I believe there are those who would be willing to volunteer their time, money and effort to attend. Of course there are who won't... you get all kinds in a volunteer organization like CAP.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 12:50:19 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 05:01:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 07:17:05 AM
CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses?  :-\

We don't have SLS we have SOS, and there is a significant cost for the PME courses.  I am sure the average member does not have the disposable funds for such a trip.

You're talking about members who own their own aircraft in many cases... I'm sure there are those who CAN afford it... if offered the opportunity.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 12:51:55 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt?  ;)

And the uniform thread drift begins!  ;D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 27, 2013, 02:00:26 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 27, 2013, 12:50:19 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2013, 05:01:05 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2013, 07:17:05 AM
CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses?  :-\

We don't have SLS we have SOS, and there is a significant cost for the PME courses.  I am sure the average member does not have the disposable funds for such a trip.

You're talking about members who own their own aircraft in many cases... I'm sure there are those who CAN afford it... if offered the opportunity.

Um no I am not talking about anyone owning their own aircraft.  There is a significant cost for PME the trans costs alone would be high then lodging would cost roughly $2400 and that's not including meals and if they were able to get billeting.  Plus there would be the issue of base access, considering the Wg CC has say over who comes on the yard and who doesn't.  Now you want to throw in the cost of members flying in, now you need to factor in fuel costs, tie down fees, and rental car. 

This program needs to get started first before we start talking about membership attending PME. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 02:16:58 AM
OH I completely agree, it's in its baby steps phase, lets see how this plays out, then we can talk about how to make it better.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: abdsp51 on October 27, 2013, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 27, 2013, 02:16:58 AM
OH I completely agree, it's in its baby steps phase, lets see how this plays out, then we can talk about how to make it better.

Exactly the growing pains need to be known and worked before we start trying to run the game winning play. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on October 27, 2013, 06:45:59 AM
Quote from: a2capt on October 24, 2013, 07:19:17 PM
I'd still like to know the rationale of why the program was cancelled back when .. Though that's probably gone to the grave..

I wasn't an NCO then, but I knew a lot of them and remember the decision.

It came about because of several factors. One was that somebody officially noted what everybody else had long known - that there were no functional differences between NCO and officer roles in CAP. Also no difference in jobs available to either, or training available.

A second factor was the old NCO structure was not tiered the same as USAF. Rather than being a career progression system over decades, the NCO program in CAP was more of a holding pattern for seniors who had no prior military or cadet officer experience. Making it worse was time in grade requirements measured in months rather than years. It was entirely possible to be a CAP Master Sergeant after only a couple if years - and at age 19 or 20! It didn't endear USAF NCOs to CAP at all.

A third factor - there were voiced concerns regarding CAP giving a different look and feel to fraternization customs that were then entrenched in the Air Force. With CAP, it was all Bob talking to Bill - despite Bob being a LtCol and Bill a MSgt., both addressing each other by first name. And, one I vividly recall was there had been voiced concern regarding awkwardness when CAP mixed bunches were forced to separate at meal and social times in USAF bases.

But, those were issues important to that era. Of those three, the last one is either not an issue today or can be corrected easily with training. The second issue can be addressed by policy. But it's the first one that, in my opinion, presents the biggest nut to crack.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 27, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 27, 2013, 12:51:55 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt?  ;)

And the uniform thread drift begins!  ;D

On the ABUs, will it be subdued or non-subdued NCO stripes?   :)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 27, 2013, 05:17:45 PM
The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 27, 2013, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 27, 2013, 05:17:45 PM
The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer

So I guess we won't be able to hide from the parents?  ;)
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Garibaldi on October 27, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 27, 2013, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 27, 2013, 05:17:45 PM
The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer

So I guess we won't be able to hide from the parents?  ;)

We can't even hide from ourselves...
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 27, 2013, 06:29:10 PM
But... but... we are wearing CAMO!

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 27, 2013, 10:21:59 PM
I would not say that CG Aux members regularly attend the same training schools as those in the Coast Guard.  There are a fair number of specialty classes taught by the CG at CG facilities that members go to.  There are a few distance learning courses available to Auxies (I know about some in the public affairs arena), but its my impression that few Auxies take advantage of them. 

But, in so far as widespread participation by Aux members in CG schools, I'd say that it is extremely limited. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 11:14:39 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 27, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 27, 2013, 12:51:55 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on October 26, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 25, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?
So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt?  ;)

And the uniform thread drift begins!  ;D

On the ABUs, will it be subdued or non-subdued NCO stripes?   :)

It's CAP! Of course it will be non-subdued for the first 3 to 4 years, then Vanguard will make an unofficial subdued version for a year or two (which people will wear regardless of authorization), during that period their merits will be debated here "ad nauseum",then they will finally be authorized by National and then you will continue to see the non-subdued ones worn for years after that.   

Did I miss anything?  ;D
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 27, 2013, 11:28:51 PM
Yeah, you missed the part where NHQ authorizes a new uniform, and the debate about which patches and insignias are to be worn on the new uniform with the NCO subdued stripes...

Flyer
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 27, 2013, 11:45:18 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on October 27, 2013, 10:21:59 PM
I would not say that CG Aux members regularly attend the same training schools as those in the Coast Guard.  There are a fair number of specialty classes taught by the CG at CG facilities that members go to.  There are a few distance learning courses available to Auxies (I know about some in the public affairs arena), but its my impression that few Auxies take advantage of them. 

But, in so far as widespread participation by Aux members in CG schools, I'd say that it is extremely limited.

Every Auxie involved in Operations is suppose to attend TCT and Goodmate... Is that not widespread?  :-\

At least once a quarter I get a mass e-mailing looking for any volunteers to attend LAMS in residence, maybe it's just my region/district.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 28, 2013, 01:55:36 AM
Goodmate is not required for Ops quals.

Yes, those in boatcrew operations take TCT but it isn't the same TCT course as the CG takes.  There are some CG-specific ICS courses that Auxies take. 

AUXLAMS is an Aux course. 

My point is that while there are some CG-courses taken by Auxies (heck, I've taken a couple), it is not common. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 28, 2013, 02:36:50 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on October 28, 2013, 01:55:36 AM
Goodmate is not required for Ops quals.

Yes, those in boatcrew operations take TCT but it isn't the same TCT course as the CG takes.  There are some CG-specific ICS courses that Auxies take. 

AUXLAMS is an Aux course. 

My point is that while there are some CG-courses taken by Auxies (heck, I've taken a couple), it is not common.

OK the TCT and Goodmate course I attended... I was the only Auxie in them. Taught by the USCG at a USCG Station and (except for me) the attendees were all USCG members.

And I'm talking about LAMS not AUXLAMS, again the USCG course that E-4 thru E-6, O1 thru O-2 and GS-9 thru GS-11 attend... that course.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 28, 2013, 02:44:39 AM
Yes, Auxies could go to the CG-version of TCT and Goodmate, but that isn't the norm.  Auxies are only required to take the 8 hour TCT course not the 16 that Coasties take -- and even that is going to be a bit different as they are changing the way TCT is delivered a bit. 

Yes, some Auxies are allowed to go to the CG LAMS course, but it is pretty rare that they do so.  Auxies are way down the priority list for slots. 

While there are a few CG-courses that Auxies can attend, its unusual for them to do so. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Shuman 14 on October 28, 2013, 03:41:26 AM
You are arguing points, just to argue.  ::)

Do Auxies attend USCG courses... yes.

If this new NCO program gets off the the ground... could CAP NCOs attend USAF NCOPD courses... maybe.

That is point I was trying to make.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on October 28, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

True but only to a point.  NHQ can create all the programs in the world but if those programs are not clearly understood and supported by the rank and file membership they are doomed to failure.  I feel the asking Why is this needed is perfectly valid.

CAP is not USAF-lite.  The missions of the USAF and the CAP are different and converge only on a few points.  To have CAP members taking USAF professional courses is a waste of resources for both the USAF and CAP.   (Ground teams would gain more from some US Army or USMC land nav courses than almost anything the USAF has to offer.)  If anything, NHQ should be developing CAP PD courses directly related to the CAP Mission for forget trying to be USAF-lite.   
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JeffDG on October 28, 2013, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on October 28, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
I feel the asking Why is this needed is perfectly valid.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen fantastic solutions in desperate search of problems.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

No, not really.  In CAP we are more than within our limits to ask why this is needed?  Nobody is arguing or being rude.  So us hashing it out here is perfectly acceptable.  People are for it, against it and others probably don't really care.  I think I fall into the "against" category.  I was an NCO in two branches of the military and CAP officer for many years.  I have yet to see any explanation of what issue this program addresses. If we are going to develop new PD courses, then develop them for the program as a whole.  Dont develop them just to justify members wearing a different patch so you can claim "Well, officers and NCOs get different training"  Its all going to boil down to what people think looks better on their uniform or by wanting to maintain their heritage as military NCOs.

I cant wait until the first time a CAP Officer tells a CAP NCO "Look here Sergeant....."   >:D  because you KNOW its coming.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:41:43 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on October 28, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
CAP is not USAF-lite.

Wow - this may really go on a T-Shirt.  If more people understood the totality of this short sentence we'd be miles further down the road.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   :o 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Panache on October 28, 2013, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

I disagree (or is that arguing?).  I just would like to know the point and the scope of the NCO program.   If the only point of the program is to allow members to wear chevrons instead of bars and leaves, well, yeah, I do have a problem with it.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 28, 2013, 03:12:03 PM
Quote from: Panache on October 28, 2013, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

I disagree (or is that arguing?).  I just would like to know the point and the scope of the NCO program.   If the only point of the program is to allow members to wear chevrons instead of bars and leaves, well, yeah, I do have a problem with it.

Chevys and upgrades for the chevys! That's the real change.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JoeTomasone on October 28, 2013, 03:32:22 PM
My understanding for the reason of having NCOs at all was so that accomplished AD NCOs could join and work in CAP without the "necessity" of becoming an officer; there are a lot of very proud NCOs that prefer to NOT be officers, and being able to be a CAP NCO fits more in line with their preferences.   "I'm a SERGEANT, I work for a living!"   

My read on this new initiative was that it was more of a way for NCOs to (more actively) participate in PD and promote rather than an expansion of roles and responsibilities.

I'm not even sure what happens when an E-7 (for example) joins CAP, becomes an E-7 in CAP, and then makes E-8.   Is there a procedure to promote an NCO in CAP to reflect the new AD grade?  I presume you can request another NCO appointment.  <shrug>


At any rate, I too have often considered what it would be like if new SMs joined as E-1 and promoted through the ranks as they gained experience in CAP and its missions, eventually becoming an officer in a manner similar to the Cadet Program or by something more like an OCS (when there's a staff need at Group or higher HQ, for example).    I'm not (necessarily) saying that it's a good idea, just that it might have merits -- one of them being that we'd resolve the issue of having so many Lt Cols being commanded by 1st Lt's.


At any rate, I don't see where this initiative materially changes things to the degree that anyone should get worked up over it.

Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 28, 2013, 03:41:10 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   :o

If they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

edit for minor grammar fix.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 28, 2013, 03:46:46 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   :o
I do.....and I will make sure that all my NCOs do likewise.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 
 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 04:03:54 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 28, 2013, 03:41:10 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   :o

if they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

What "role" is that?  That they think NCO stripes look better than Captain bars?  There is NOT a separation of rolls in CAP based on enlisted or officer like the military has.  In CAP it will all be superficial.  That is not going to withstand the test of time.  It will fail.  In the military officers and enlisted are two completely different worlds.  CAP is not set up that way. 

So again..... what foundations will separate a CAP NCO distinctly from a CAP officer?
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: flyboy53 on October 28, 2013, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 


No there isn't a separate chain of command although a unit first sergeant is the traditional path that a NCO would take to talk to a unit commander.

At group level, there is still a first sergeant. Then at wing level, the ranking NCO is traditionally an advisor. However, first sergeants would then contact that person in order to speak with a wing commander.

It  wouldn't be much different than what happens now with the cadet program, other than this structure would be for NCOs.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 05:03:21 PM
Right.... you explained how it works in the military.  Im very familiar with that.  Now explain how its going to work when we have a squadrons with no officers?   Or even a group with no officers?  Because there certainly are groups and squadrons with no NCOs. So the idea that we could end up with commands with no officers is a valid concern.  Do the Wing staff officers assume operational control of those units?

You cant compare it to the cadet program, because there is a distinct NCO and officer role, education built into "their" program.  To use that example, every senior who joins needs to join as a CAP E1 and work their way up through CMSgt then switch to 2Lt and continue on up the chain.  Members coming in at any and every step in the ladder blows that concept both officer and enlisted.  CAP has plenty of LTCs running around who dont even know how to log onto EServices. 

My question is still hanging out there.  Aside from symbols.... what traits and core foundations will separate an officer from an NCO?

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RogueLeader on October 28, 2013, 05:22:43 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 04:03:54 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 28, 2013, 03:41:10 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on October 28, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   :o

if they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

What "role" is that?  That they think NCO stripes look better than Captain bars?  There is NOT a separation of rolls in CAP based on enlisted or officer like the military has.

The role that I'm concerned about (in this example,) is that as a NCO, they are subservient to Officers as they are in the Real Military. If they think that they are "above" that; that is where there are issues.

As to the role they play in the unit, I have no idea.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: UH60guy on October 28, 2013, 05:26:44 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 05:03:21 PM

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 28, 2013, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 

No matter what the chain of command is.....there has always been a culture of NCO's policing themselves.
IF they create a position of First Sergeant....then yes he will answer to the Squadron Commander.

As for all the rest.....at this point no one can answer as there is no published program yet.
We got a whole lot of belly aching on this program....which no one has seen yet.

Personally.....I see a value to NCOs in CAP (I am one....so of course I'm going to say that.  :) ).  What CAP is going to look like in 3-4 years.....I can't say.   But let's keep an open mind.   Let's try new things and see what happens.  Maybe we will all be surprised by what can happen.   If it does not work.....we go back to doing it the old way and press on.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Fubar on October 28, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 28, 2013, 03:32:22 PM
My understanding for the reason of having NCOs at all was so that accomplished AD NCOs could join and work in CAP without the "necessity" of becoming an officer; there are a lot of very proud NCOs that prefer to NOT be officers, and being able to be a CAP NCO fits more in line with their preferences.

It seems like an AD NCO would have this preference only if:


I don't see why someone can't be proud to be an AD NCO and be a CAP officer at the same time. I could see someone moving between the branches of the military saying they'd prefer to remain a NCO, since the NCO/officer dynamic is the same across the branches. But joining CAP? Not the same thing. It would be like joining the local police department but refusing to use the title police officer because your proud of your previous NCO experience and prefer not to be an officer.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 28, 2013, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 

No matter what the chain of command is.....there has always been a culture of NCO's policing themselves.


Yes, in the military.   This all sounds like the same reasons the Army went to black berets.  The beret will make us feel elite, therefore we will be elite. 
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: arajca on October 28, 2013, 07:02:38 PM
Quote from: UH60guy on October 28, 2013, 05:26:44 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 05:03:21 PM

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.
There have been a few attempts to convert it, but the topic continues to resist becoming a uniform thread.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Garibaldi on October 28, 2013, 07:37:59 PM
Quote from: arajca on October 28, 2013, 07:02:38 PM
Quote from: UH60guy on October 28, 2013, 05:26:44 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 05:03:21 PM

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.
There have been a few attempts to convert it, but the topic continues to resist becoming a uniform thread.

I think CAP NCOs will wear BBDUs with bright orange chevrons. Anyone over the grade of MSGT will get to transition to the golf shirt and tac pants. Chiefs will get the ABUs.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: lordmonar on October 28, 2013, 08:11:40 PM
And this is why we can't have nice things.  :-\
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: SarDragon on October 28, 2013, 08:39:43 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 28, 2013, 03:32:22 PM
I'm not even sure what happens when an E-7 (for example) joins CAP, becomes an E-7 in CAP, and then makes E-8.   Is there a procedure to promote an NCO in CAP to reflect the new AD grade?

That provision currently exists in the CAP reg (CAPR 35-5). AD NCOs who get promoted may also be given CAP promotions. This is currently the only method for CAP NCOs to promote.

Quote from: Fubar on October 28, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
I don't see why someone can't be proud to be an AD NCO and be a CAP officer at the same time.

It's easy. I was a CAP officer most of the time I was in the Navy. In two instances, my meeting were on military bases, and I used due diligence in separating my Navy-ness from my CAP-ness. It did cause some initial confusion with my coworkers, seeing me in a CAP uniform, but quickly abated.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Eclipse on October 28, 2013, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 28, 2013, 05:39:02 PM
...I see a value to NCOs in CAP...

We all do, as members.

Beyond that, it's irrelevant.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: flyboy53 on October 28, 2013, 11:50:46 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2013, 05:03:21 PM
Right.... you explained how it works in the military.  Im very familiar with that.  Now explain how its going to work when we have a squadrons with no officers?   Or even a group with no officers?  Because there certainly are groups and squadrons with no NCOs. So the idea that we could end up with commands with no officers is a valid concern.  Do the Wing staff officers assume operational control of those units?

You cant compare it to the cadet program, because there is a distinct NCO and officer role, education built into "their" program.  To use that example, every senior who joins needs to join as a CAP E1 and work their way up through CMSgt then switch to 2Lt and continue on up the chain.  Members coming in at any and every step in the ladder blows that concept both officer and enlisted.  CAP has plenty of LTCs running around who dont even know how to log onto EServices. 

My question is still hanging out there.  Aside from symbols.... what traits and core foundations will separate an officer from an NCO?

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

Or is it that you just don't like the answer?

First of all, yes, you can compare it to the cadet program -- after all so much of the rank structure is based on the military or ROTC and a cadet airman or junior NCO is just as much a trainee as the real airman or junior NCO rank is. I've also seen cadet senior NCOs doing much of the same stuff normally required of cadet officers.

As far as units without officers. I find that entirely unlikely. You are forgetting that the commander at the next echelon of command has the authority to appoint unit commanders. If there are none available, that commander can recruit someone from the outside.

This issue is very polarizing. There are those in support and those who are opposed. The problem is that neither you or I have seen the specifics of this program so how can you make an instant judgment call slamming something you haven't seen -- other than a photo op.

So much of the tone is "can't." If I've learned nothing else while a member of this organization, it is to embrace change because change most certainly will happen. Lets see what happens when the program specifics come out and go from there.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: PHall on October 29, 2013, 01:10:23 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know! :o
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: sarmed1 on October 29, 2013, 01:29:04 AM
Quote from: Fubar on October 28, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
...
  • They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
  • They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)
...

If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

mk
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 29, 2013, 01:10:23 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know! :o
You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: RiverAux on October 29, 2013, 03:17:17 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 02:15:16 AM
You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).

[sarcasm] Obviously it was so critically important to do that they couldn't waste time incorporating it into the strategic plan outlining the really important stuff that CAP needs to do.  [sarcasm]

Now, to be fair, a strategic plan isn't going to cover everything the organization intends to do.  But, I would think that it would cover a major change in the organizational structure and senior member development program.  The fact that it didn't make the strategic plan implies to me that this is going to be exactly what many of us predict -- a uniform issue for a handful of CAP members. 


Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: Private Investigator on October 29, 2013, 03:36:05 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 29, 2013, 01:10:23 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know! :o

That is good enough for me   :clap:
Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
Post by: flyboy53 on October 29, 2013, 11:54:54 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 29, 2013, 01:29:04 AM
    Quote from: Fubar on October 28, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
    ...
    • They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
    • They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)
    ...

    If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

    Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

    Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

    And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

    mk

    Do you wonder if that's what's happening here? After all, in the CAP senior member program, there really isn't a difference between the workers and the managers unless you're a commander -- and even then, the commander may be a technician of some sort.

    In an earlier post, there was a concern about squadrons without officers, and yet three times in my Air Force career, I served in detachments or forward operating locations where there were no officers, only senior NCOs.. We still got the mission done with or without officers. Why that wouldn't work in CAP is beyond me.

    [/list]
    Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
    Post by: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 12:03:54 PM
    Quote from: RiverAux on October 29, 2013, 03:17:17 AM
    Quote from: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 02:15:16 AM
    You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).

    [sarcasm] Obviously it was so critically important to do that they couldn't waste time incorporating it into the strategic plan outlining the really important stuff that CAP needs to do.  [sarcasm]

    Now, to be fair, a strategic plan isn't going to cover everything the organization intends to do.  But, I would think that it would cover a major change in the organizational structure and senior member development program.  The fact that it didn't make the strategic plan implies to me that this is going to be exactly what many of us predict -- a uniform issue for a handful of CAP members.
    I know that a strategic plan doesn't cover everything you need to do...just common sense.

    But think of it this way...if you get the chance to meet with the CEO of your biggest customer (SecAF), would you use that time to talk about your strategic relationship with that customer, or would you ask him to make sure your latest $50 invoice is paid on time?

    Again, from what I see, this NCO program is a solution in desperate search of a problem.
    Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
    Post by: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 12:33:34 PM
    Quote from: flyboy1 on October 29, 2013, 11:54:54 AM
    Quote from: sarmed1 on October 29, 2013, 01:29:04 AM
      Quote from: Fubar on October 28, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
      ...
      • They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
      • They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)
      ...

      If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

      Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

      Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

      And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

      mk

      Do you wonder if that's what's happening here? After all, in the CAP senior member program, there really isn't a difference between the workers and the managers unless you're a commander -- and even then, the commander may be a technician of some sort.

      In an earlier post, there was a concern about squadrons without officers, and yet three times in my Air Force career, I served in detachments or forward operating locations where there were no officers, only senior NCOs.. We still got the mission done with or without officers. Why that wouldn't work in CAP is beyond me.
      [/list]

      That's the whole point of my comments.  It doesn't matter one bit if members are officers or NCOs.  There are members who want to wear NCO stripes.  That's that only reason this is being done.   Whether CAP is all officers, all NCOs or a mixture of both nothing will change.  The ranks will mean nothing.  It will all boil down to what design you think looks better on your uniform.  Because when a member joins, they get to pick what they want to be correct?  How silly is that?
      Members who came from the enlisted military side may chose to be enlisted because it looks familiar to them.   Former officers will want to stay officers.  New members will probably choose whatever side the person who recruited them wears.  Or they will just automatically default to wanting to be an officer.  In the end.  Everyone will still come to meetings and do what they do.   Outside organizations will ask what the differences are and will get 100 different answers.
      CAP will look like there is an NCO and officer path but in reality there will be absolutely no difference to what members do or can do based on what they choose to wear.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
      That's a lot of extrapolation.

      Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 03:11:37 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
      That's a lot of extrapolation.

      Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.

      Well, which one is it?  I think Ive articulate pretty well why is doesn't matter.  Im waiting for someone, anyone, or even NHQ to explain why it does matter.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 29, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
      Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it :). My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: tkelley004 on October 29, 2013, 03:24:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
      Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
      But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

      Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

      Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
      How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

      The differences are too many to list! but here are a few, First try getting a commission with a degree in "left handed basket weaving" Sorry, ROTC and OTS are only taking folks with hard science degrees and you fight for a spot (with some ROTC grads being told, sorry no room on active duty, here is your reserve commission) Next a commission from the POTUS, and a selection process, required schooling, and I could go on and on, but the real reason is limits, you can't walk off the street, sign a few forms, take a mostly on-line course you can't fail, wait a few months (or no time at all if you have a private pilot license, I have gotten  new members appointed to 2Lt in just under 2 months) and become a USAF/USA/USN/USMC/USCG officer.

      And speaking of limits, E8 and E9 are limited to the top 3% of the enlisted corps, any limits for CAP? or will we have as many "Chiefs" as we do Lt Cols? I fail to understand why announce a program without the regulation covering it out either before the "public" announcement or within a day or two.

      Without a different officer program, the NCO program is what others have said "a solution in search of a problem"
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 03:34:25 PM
      Since all promotion and grade is "command prerogative" it might be interesting to see the reaction when the first one is denied, deferred, or reduced.

      It would be fully within the authority of a given commander to simply not feel NCO's are necessary in his unit and just not appoint any.

      CAP grade is not "member's discretion" beyond choosing to leave the organization.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:45:23 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on October 29, 2013, 03:11:37 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
      That's a lot of extrapolation.

      Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.

      Well, which one is it?  I think Ive articulate pretty well why is doesn't matter.  Im waiting for someone, anyone, or even NHQ to explain why it does matter.
      Well rank either matters....in which case we need to see how this proposed NCO program is going to affect CAP and its operations.....or rank does not matter in which case it just does not matter and the NCO program is no different then the one that exists now.

      My main point is that we are all operating right now in an information vacuum.   No one, today, right now, is asking or telling anyone to do anything differently.   The announcement was that NHQ is working with the USAF in launching a new program.   The only information, right now, is that we are getting CAP specific stripes, and that there will be a process for CAP NCOs to promote.   That is all, right now.

      Give it time.....let's see what NHQ is actually proposing and see what is going to happen before we automatically say "this is just BS".

      Let's maybe take two seconds and see what we can make CAP in the future.

      One complaint is that it is too easy to be an officer in CAP.    Maybe, Maybe.....and this is just pure speculation, this is step one in changing that.   If you want to make it harder to be CAP officer......well you got to have a system for the enlisted members before you change the system for the officers.

      All I ask is to keep asking the questions about how this will affect CAP, but keep and open mind and don't automatically poo poo it as simply a uniform change or just an ego thing for NCOs.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      Quote from: tkelley004 on October 29, 2013, 03:24:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
      Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
      But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

      Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

      Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
      How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

      The differences are too many to list! but here are a few, First try getting a commission with a degree in "left handed basket weaving" Sorry, ROTC and OTS are only taking folks with hard science degrees and you fight for a spot (with some ROTC grads being told, sorry no room on active duty, here is your reserve commission) Next a commission from the POTUS, and a selection process, required schooling, and I could go on and on, but the real reason is limits, you can't walk off the street, sign a few forms, take a mostly on-line course you can't fail, wait a few months (or no time at all if you have a private pilot license, I have gotten  new members appointed to 2Lt in just under 2 months) and become a USAF/USA/USN/USMC/USCG officer.

      And speaking of limits, E8 and E9 are limited to the top 3% of the enlisted corps, any limits for CAP? or will we have as many "Chiefs" as we do Lt Cols? I fail to understand why announce a program without the regulation covering it out either before the "public" announcement or within a day or two.

      Without a different officer program, the NCO program is what others have said "a solution in search of a problem"
      Tim, you took my comments out of context and started comparing CAP with AD USAF.

      The Comment was a CAP SNCO being commanded by some CAP officer with little experience.
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.   The SNCO will do their job, mentor their junior officers just like we do on AD.  We will call them sir and salute them and carry on and get the mission done.

       
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 03:57:44 PM
      ^ That's fine...

      ...however...

      ...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.

      We all know this isn't going to open an recruiting markets that aren't already open, flood our doors with "huddled masses yearning to breath stripes",
      nor change the over all mission.

      All we ever hear is people looking to disavow responsibility and staff work in favor of being an NCO - not a single thing that would actually
      improve CAP, work in a non-caste volunteer paradigm, or make any of this worth the expense of even the cost of the press release.

      So, you know, there's that.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 03:57:44 PM
      ^ That's fine...

      ...however...

      ...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.

      We all know this isn't going to open an recruiting markets that aren't already open, flood our doors with "huddled masses yearning to breath stripes",
      nor change the over all mission.

      All we ever hear is people looking to disavow responsibility and staff work in favor of being an NCO - not a single thing that would actually
      improve CAP, work in a non-caste volunteer paradigm, or make any of this worth the expense of even the cost of the press release.

      So, you know, there's that.
      Yes......no one has said......so why judge something you know nothing about.  :)
      Title: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 05:19:53 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 03:57:44 PM
      ...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.
      It's a solution in search of a problem.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

      Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.
      Title: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

      Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

      Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

      In contrast, a brand new senior member can be made squadron commander and put up for a promotion to 1st Lt just because no one else wanted the job. A year later, with very little experience, he/she can be promoted to Capt. In many instances, there's little to no mentoring of these new CAP officers.

      Lordmonar asked how was that different [USAF officer with little experience commanding SNCO]. I say it's VERY different.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

      Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

      Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

      In contrast, a brand new senior member can be made squadron commander and put up for a promotion to 1st Lt just because no one else wanted the job. A year later, with very little experience, he/she can be promoted to Capt. In many instances, there's little to no mentoring of these new CAP officers.

      Lordmonar asked how was that different [USAF officer with little experience commanding SNCO]. I say it's VERY different.
      Okay....seeing as how you don't actually listen to what I say.

      Let's compare a CAP squadron vs a VERY SMALL USAF detachment....which may be commanded by a 1st Lt....with a SNCO as the super.

      Again.....no different.

      If you had a CAP squadron that was comparable to real USAF squadron....then there is no way a brand new CAP member would ever be given command of it.....and no need to as there would be a lot of people ready to stand up and take over.

      But we don't have a lot of 200 person CAP squadrons.....so the analogy is pretty useless.

      But........a CAP SNCO who suddenly found himself commanded by a some newby CAP Officers.....would react just like he did when he was assigned a new OIC.   "Your in charge boss.....but listen to me and I'll keep you out of jail and get you lots of fodder for your OER/OPR.  Sir."

      That's where there will be no difference.

      SNCO's have been "lead" by inexperienced officers since roman times.......I think we can handle CAP officers just fine.

      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

      Sorry if that was a little harsh.....but really. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 
      I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 08:22:28 PM
      @ lordmonar

      I'm not bashing the proposed CAP NCO program. I'm neither in favor nor against, since I don't have enough information to make an informed decision. I've stated that I see some merit if done right, but I also don't see the need if it's only about the stripes and nothing else. We just don't know at this point.

      But I've been in the Air Force (both as an NCO and commissioned officer) and in CAP long enough to know that we really can't compare the two. The example you provided, IMHO, doesn't reflect the reality of CAP. But just because I disagree with your comments doesn't mean I'm bashing the program or you.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
      Quote from: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 
      I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.
      Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

      There.....that is a problem. 
      We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 08:35:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

      Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

      Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

      Not a single day, however, in my Squadron, Cheyenne Composite Squadron, a vast majority (9 out of 13) of my senior members are Active Duty Air Force or Active Air National Guard.  One (1st LT) happened to be the Commander over another (SSgt) on active duty.  He obviously wasn't the Squadron Commander in the AF, but he was still in command of that section.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 29, 2013, 08:39:08 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
      Quote from: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 
      I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.
      Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

      There.....that is a problem. 
      We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".

      Are they in CAP to be NCOs or to be in CAP?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 08:41:08 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

      You keep saying that, but we know better.

      Implemented in the standard military model, this is unnecessary and will not work, but brings with it significant risk to the
      existing cadre with zero evidence it will increase membership.  We already know it won't since there was never any
      barrier to entrance to NCOs before.

      Implemented in the typical CAP "all smoke, no fire" implementation of the grade structure, this already exists at the only level it ever can.

      Military NCOs have no more, or less, experience or ability then anyone else in a CAP context to serve as members, nor any innate
      capabilities in regards to what is actually our mission, that being CP, AE, & ES.  Many can be and are amazing assets because of their MOS
      which has no specific connection to their grade in any way which is different from officers or the civilian population.

      Anyone kidding themselves into believing that by virtue of their stripes, NCOs can lead or train cadets "better" then officers or
      the average civilian parent doesn't understand the question, nor have they listened to all the inexperience NCOs on this board alone,
      let alone other areas, who are going to "fix" CAP with their NCO force powers, only to find CAP doesn't need fixing in any way their
      light saber can specifically help (not that CAP doesn't need a lot of fixing).

      To make the statement that "NCOs are the backbone of the military" in the context of implementing such a structures in an organization that doesn't have one,
      implies both that the organization as it stands doesn't have a backbone, which is wholly insulting to the people doing the real work today,
      and that it would benefit from one, when at the same time the only recruiting rhetoric out of NHQ is "more pilots".

      It's DOA before the regs is published.

      Which brings us around to why this was announced before the regs was published.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Jaison009 on October 29, 2013, 08:54:36 PM
      Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on October 29, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
      Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:15:17 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
      Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??

      There are remnants of that initiative still in place today, not to mention the "results" which can still be found on this message board.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on October 29, 2013, 09:28:53 PM
      Quote from: Jaison009 on October 29, 2013, 08:54:36 PM
      Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.

      I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

      WO1=2LT
      WO2=1LT
      WO3=CAPT
      CWO=MAJ

      LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

      If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

      have the PD for warrants be based on ops quals/specialty track levels
      PD for officers, same as it is now.

      If you want to change between roles, you can but must complete the corresponding PD

      Just a thought.

      Full disclosure, I am an ops guy and think the WO description better corresponds to my actual role
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 09:34:06 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 08:35:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
      How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

      Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

      Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

      Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

      Not a single day, however, in my Squadron, Cheyenne Composite Squadron, a vast majority (9 out of 13) of my senior members are Active Duty Air Force or Active Air National Guard.  One (1st LT) happened to be the Commander over another (SSgt) on active duty.  He obviously wasn't the Squadron Commander in the AF, but he was still in command of that section.

      So, in other words, your knowledge of the Air Force is based on your interpretation of the experiences of 9 other people. No offense, but as someone who >IS< in the Air Force, I am telling you that the command structure in the Air Force is quite different from that of CAP.

      Being in command [charge] is >NOT< the same as being in charge [command]. Most flight commanders in the Air Force are more akin to supervisors than actual unit commanders. And even so, while the 1st Lt may be technically in charge, I guarantee than in most cases it is the SNCO who is really running the shop, section or flight.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on October 29, 2013, 09:34:53 PM
      Hmm, I wonder just how much leeway commanders really might have to "nullify" this program by just not appointing anyone to NCO grade.  They certainly aren't required to promote people based on past military officer rank, "mission skills", etc. although it is the general practice to do so. 

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 29, 2013, 08:39:08 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
      Quote from: JeffDG on October 29, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 
      I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.
      Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

      There.....that is a problem. 
      We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".

      Are they in CAP to be NCOs or to be in CAP?
      They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

      Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:38:22 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 09:34:06 PM
      Being in command is >NOT< the same as being in charge.

      The fact that many commanders are >not< in charge is frequently indicated as a serious problem for CAP.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 29, 2013, 09:38:57 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 09:34:06 PM

      So, in other words, your knowledge of the Air Force is based on your interpretation of the experiences of 9 other people.

      No.  I am only relaying exactly as has been told to me.  They live it, I don't; there is nothing for me to interpret. 

      Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 29, 2013, 09:34:06 PM
      No offense, but as someone who >IS< in the Air Force, I am telling you that the command structure in the Air Force is quite different from that of CAP.


      Completely agree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 08:41:08 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
      Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

      You keep saying that, but we know better.

      Implemented in the standard military model, this is unnecessary and will not work, but brings with it significant risk to the
      existing cadre with zero evidence it will increase membership.  We already know it won't since there was never any
      barrier to entrance to NCOs before.

      Implemented in the typical CAP "all smoke, no fire" implementation of the grade structure, this already exists at the only level it ever can.

      Military NCOs have no more, or less, experience or ability then anyone else in a CAP context to serve as members, nor any innate
      capabilities in regards to what is actually our mission, that being CP, AE, & ES.  Many can be and are amazing assets because of their MOS
      which has no specific connection to their grade in any way which is different from officers or the civilian population.

      Anyone kidding themselves into believing that by virtue of their stripes, NCOs can lead or train cadets "better" then officers or
      the average civilian parent doesn't understand the question, nor have they listened to all the inexperience NCOs on this board alone,
      let alone other areas, who are going to "fix" CAP with their NCO force powers, only to find CAP doesn't need fixing in any way their
      light saber can specifically help (not that CAP doesn't need a lot of fixing).

      To make the statement that "NCOs are the backbone of the military" in the context of implementing such a structures in an organization that doesn't have one,
      implies both that the organization as it stands doesn't have a backbone, which is wholly insulting to the people doing the real work today,
      and that it would benefit from one, when at the same time the only recruiting rhetoric out of NHQ is "more pilots".

      It's DOA before the regs is published.

      Which brings us around to why this was announced before the regs was published.
      So....like I said....you have pre-judged the program before you have even seen it.
      Your assumptions are the only ones that count......so therefore any opinion or effort not conforming to your assumptions is DOA....even before the regs are written.

      Thanks for your input.   ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
      They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

      Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?

      You need to be more clear in the question.

      Yes, there are members who are past or present military NCOs who have chosen to wear their stripes.

      Yes there are a lot of members who are military NCOs - most not wearing their stripes.

      That doesn't make the CAP NCOs in any meaningful way.

      The question is important because as has been said time and again, we need military NCOs in CAP.  There's just no viable
      NCO role in CAP. 

      One could ask the same question about generals, who don't get commensurate grade, nor a way to promote within CAP, yet they
      don't seem to have an issue serving as Lt Cols or below.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:43:28 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
      Your assumptions are the only ones that count......so therefore any opinion or effort not conforming to your assumptions is DOA....

      Thanks man!  Your insight and judge of character are first rate.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:46:13 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
      Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..
      Define hairbrained?  Also please enlighten me on what program you have seen that you can make said judgment?

      Also....just because HSNBN supported the idea does not mean it was intrinsically bad.  Pineda had a lot of good ideas....the Corporate Uniform was not really a bad idea in concept.....in execution it was a disaster...but the concept was not bad.

      See a need, fill a need.   The need is "there is no way for CAP NCOs to progress in rank"   We are looking for a way to fix that need.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:54:32 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:46:13 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
      Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..
      Define hairbrained? 

      Appointing someone with zero CAP experience and knowledge, serving in a wing that was not following the normal CAP model, to
      a non-existent position and then allowing him to self-announce his appointment.

      I'd say that qualifies.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
      They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

      Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?

      You need to be more clear in the question.

      Yes, there are members who are past or present military NCOs who have chosen to wear their stripes.

      Yes there are a lot of members who are military NCOs - most not wearing their stripes.

      That doesn't make the CAP NCOs in any meaningful way.

      The question is important because as has been said time and again, we need military NCOs in CAP.  There's just no viable
      NCO role in CAP. 

      One could ask the same question about generals, who don't get commensurate grade, nor a way to promote within CAP, yet they
      don't seem to have an issue serving as Lt Cols or below.
      So......again are you suggesting that CAP NCOs.....are a problem?   They exist today, right now, with no way to promote.....this announced program is going to give them a way to promote.   What is wrong with that.  How is it DOA.  Who has said anything beyond that...that is anything but speculation?

      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.  If we give it a chance to even get out the door.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 29, 2013, 09:57:41 PM
      That was not quite how the announcement put it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:57:55 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:54:32 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:46:13 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
      Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..
      Define hairbrained? 

      Appointing someone with zero CAP experience and knowledge, serving in a wing that was not following the normal CAP model, to
      a non-existent position and then allowing him to self-announce his appointment.

      I'd say that qualifies.
      Chief Todd?   I think you are stuck in the past.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 10:01:50 PM
      They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

      Are the stripes like a flash drive?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 29, 2013, 10:04:43 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

      We had an army SFC wearing Lt bars do just fine as a Leadership Officer. I'm doing OK in this regard as the current leadership officer after being a cadet.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:05:58 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 29, 2013, 09:57:41 PM
      That was not quite how the announcement put it.
      Like the PAO types have never made a mistake before?

      Bottom line is that as of right now......there is no program.  They are starting the first steps to getting one started.  They started by first asking the USAF for permission to pursue this program.

      That is where we are today.

      Yes CAP sucks on getting the information out.   We all know that.  All I am asking is to keep and open mind and not to poison the waters before we get a chance to get this program out the door.

      If the program sucks....if it causes more problems then it is worth....if it fails miserabley......so be it.   But be honest and give it a chance.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 29, 2013, 10:10:40 PM
      Everyone is giving it a chance. We will have to. But the big question is a chance for what? If it said it was an augmentation of the current NCOs to give them a chance to promote within CAP, fine. But this announcement talked about letting in non NCOs become such, and the point there then becomes to what end?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:12:02 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 10:01:50 PM
      They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

      Are the stripes like a flash drive?
      Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

      Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

      The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

      I simply ask that you give it a chance instead of just automatically gainsaying it out the gate.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:15:35 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 29, 2013, 10:10:40 PM
      Everyone is giving it a chance. We will have to. But the big question is a chance for what? If it said it was an augmentation of the current NCOs to give them a chance to promote within CAP, fine. But this announcement talked about letting in non NCOs become such, and the point there then becomes to what end?
      Yes....in order for it not to just be another clique in CAP it has to be opened for all.   Ergo...at some point....there will be a way to bring in non-prior service member into the NCO corps.  Where will it end?  Hopefully it will end with a strong, professional, motivated Air Force Auxiliary ready to complete Missions for America.   If for one minute I thought that it would not end there....I would not be supporting this initiative at all.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 10:22:32 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:12:02 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 10:01:50 PM
      They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

      Are the stripes like a flash drive?
      Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

      Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

      The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

      It's a traditional role in the MILITARY.  1/2 the members of CAP don't even wear a military-style uniform, with probably 25+% owning nothing but a flight suit
      or the golf shirt.

      You make the assertion NCOs have a role, and since what you're advocating is the creation of an entire new PD track, the "what they can do" has to be specific
      special skills that only NCOs have and that can only be done if they are allowed the traditional NCO role and lane.

      Anything else is silly.

      NCOs may well be the backbone of the military, no one will argue that, but they have never, ever, never been the backbone of CAP.
      No by membership numbers and not by role.

      The rhetorical backbone of CAP are the pilots, where the majority of the attention, money, and mission focus is.  At least in terms
      of what is important to NHQ in regards to equipment and inspections.

      The actual backbone of CAP, like it or not, are the non-military civilian members doing the best they can to get things done with no money,
      little support, and figure it out as they go along" experience.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on October 29, 2013, 10:53:56 PM
      As a veteran of the USAF and proud former NCO, I question the need for this program.

      I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

      Let's say the member attends normal meeting times but due to work can't spend much time outside the Tuesday night meetings. How do you take joe from civilian to SSGT for the 8 or so hours he will be in contact with you.

      Now, I know the argument will be that we do the same thing with officers, but if like above that "officer" never attends anything but Tuesday night meetings they will forever be a 2nd lt.

      Are we now expected to be ok with someone joining and wanting to be an NCO but never moving up? I guess we will because we are expected to do the same for the "officers".

      I just struggle to see any good coming from random person walking in off the streets to become the local squadrons "keeper of all things military" like was said earlier.

      Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Jaison009 on October 29, 2013, 11:01:55 PM
      I would agree with that Bill but not sure it will happen. I come from the same world as you (same part of the state even ;)) and definitely understand ops being in different track than command. I also know when our customers see officer rank they have a basic expectation of knowledge and skill (fire, law enforcement, and EMS all use officer rank and there is an expectation of SME). EM doesn't typically have ranks; however, working with all of the other areas they have expectations of what a LT, CAPT, MAJ, and above should be able to do and generally authority. With WOs it would probably be misunderstood and mistaken internally and externally (plus more uniform costs). At least with SMWOG, others would know who are worker bees and who are the SMEs or command. For my real job with the American Red Cross I wear nothing different or that designates me "in charge"; however, through painstaking hours of relationship building my partner agencies know who I am and where I am within the structure. If I show up as 1LT Scott of the local CAP unit and want to talk ES or DR that is fine as they know me for both hats. If I show up 1LT Scott on a search and there are 10 other 1LTs and CAPTs in IC positions that they are not familiar with, it could be a problem. At least SMWOG would differentiate between those working and those leading.   

      Quote from: cap235629 on October 29, 2013, 09:28:53 PM
      Quote from: Jaison009 on October 29, 2013, 08:54:36 PM
      Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.

      I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

      WO1=2LT
      WO2=1LT
      WO3=CAPT
      CWO=MAJ

      LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

      If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

      have the PD for warrants be based on ops quals/specialty track levels
      PD for officers, same as it is now.

      If you want to change between roles, you can but must complete the corresponding PD

      Just a thought.

      Full disclosure, I am an ops guy and think the WO description better corresponds to my actual role
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 29, 2013, 11:04:23 PM
      I also see a potential problem, cause for conflict.

      As has been stated,in the military model, the officer is "in charge" while the NCOs are the actual take-charge.

      Civilians who are not used to this model will question the NCOs who are following this model. Some civilians are more open-minded and will "adjust" to the "attitude adjustment" of the NCO. Others are more strong-willed and will not want their "attitude adjustment."

      I am not sure this potential problem has been addressed.

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on October 30, 2013, 12:00:07 AM
      "That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

      It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet."

      Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?  Come up with a program, put it into effect and then figure out the training and responsibilities it  ;)?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on October 30, 2013, 12:52:47 AM
      So here is a question that isn't one sided.   I'm a former CAP Captain, former Sgt E5.  If I were to rejoin under the NCO program, what enlisted rank would I be?  Because surely as a former captain, 20yrs time in service, squadron commander, mission/CD pilot, ES and CP technician I must rate higher than CAP E5?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on October 30, 2013, 01:01:41 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 29, 2013, 10:53:56 PM
      ......

      I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

      ...

      Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

      Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on October 30, 2013, 01:11:02 AM
      Don't forget the 80 hour two weeks training each year on top of the weekend drills.  Wait, I smell something coming...  Wait for it....  It's the Iowa model of revamping everything you think you know about CAP...  OMG, I have stepped into a timewarp back to say 5-10 years ago..  Someone needs to tell Carr to get out of the wayback machine.. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on October 30, 2013, 01:29:31 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on October 30, 2013, 01:01:41 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 29, 2013, 10:53:56 PM
      ......

      I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

      ...

      Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

      Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

      mk

      But isnt that only for specialized jobs?  I looked into that to be a Criminal Investigator.  I believe its for jobs that require significat levels of civilian certs.  When I looked it Army Guard CID it was the same. You had to be a fully sworn and experienced CA LEO to apply.  So it wasnt necessarily just anyone off the street.

      Do they do this with anyone?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: flyboy53 on October 30, 2013, 01:56:36 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2013, 01:29:31 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on October 30, 2013, 01:01:41 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 29, 2013, 10:53:56 PM
      ......

      I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

      ...

      Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

      Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

      mk

      But isnt that only for specialized jobs?  I looked into that to be a Criminal Investigator.  I believe its for jobs that require significat levels of civilian certs.  When I looked it Army Guard CID it was the same. You had to be a fully sworn and experienced CA LEO to apply.  So it wasnt necessarily just anyone off the street.

      Do they do this with anyone?

      No. I don't think there will be any CAP enlisted types applying for things like CID or OSI.

      First, a lot of ANG and AFRES specialty training involves a lot of AF Distance Learning Courses. It's the same for PME. Course completion (especially the PME) counted whether you completed it in-residence or via correspondence. The most major difference was that in-residence PME resulted in a ribbon while correspondence did not.

      The big difference between ANG/AFRES and Regular Air Force is that enlisted people test for promotion on active duty in addition to the PME, skill level upgrade, fitness and time in grade requirements. On the Reserve/Guard side, enlisted types complete the necessary skill level upgrade, PME either in residence or by correspondence and have to have a slot to be promoted into in addition to TIG, skill level upgrade, PME and fitness.

      I suspect that what the CAP NCO program will contain are CAP-related specialties, combined with AF enlisted PME. At last check, CAP members can still take certain career development courses and the enlisted PME.

      Something else that I wonder that hasn't been addressed in this string is whether there will be some sort of table or organization limiting certain ranks to specific unit echelons -- like only senior NCOs at group, wing or region.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Larry Mangum on October 30, 2013, 03:04:49 AM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

      I am one of those that are very skeptical about a need for a  CAP NCO track, however, I think that Patrick's answer is a start in the right direction.  I think we need more details before we decide rather it will solve any issues for CAP or not.  We certainly can use mentors for junior officer's.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on October 30, 2013, 03:55:16 AM
      There have been many different comments about this proposed program...some asking if an NCO program is really required in the Civil Air Patrol Context.  I think many have valid points in the fact that NCO's can perform other functions in CAP regardless of their identified grade.

      Those same arguments that hold for not needing an NCO program lead me to think that we don't need any rank structure Officer or enlisted.

      If the Purpose of Rank in the Civil Air Patrol doesn't actually accompany with it any actual expressed authority than why do we have it?  Most common assumptions is that rank implies authority.  However, the Civil Air Patrol ranks only express the members progress through the Professional Development program. 

      As a tool for recognizing a member's progress we have a few options provided us in a volunteer organization including awards and even promotions.  Although there are those of us that don't really care for the promotion or awards and are just happy performing the mission that our organization supports.

      We do have those in our midst who believe that ranks and ribbons are important tools to encourage recruiting and retention.  I think that if establishing an NCO program allows us to authorize more benchmarks to recognize our members at shorter intervals in recognition of their service than we should do that by all means.

      I'm curious to read the policy when it's published to see how it's going to be implemented.  If we are going to reestablish an NCO track we might as well expand to include all enlisted ranks and allow our members to work and develop into becoming an NCO as opposed to using as an entry level position.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on October 30, 2013, 04:39:35 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on October 29, 2013, 09:28:53 PM
      I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

      WO1=2LT
      WO2=1LT
      WO3=CAPT
      CWO=MAJ

      LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

      If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

      +1

      Make the rank and file members Warrant Officers, with your WO grade directly tied to your technical skill.  "Commissioned" ranks are only for command personnel or those training for command (i.e. 2nd Lieutenants) or command staff.

      SMWOG = Starting point.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w1-clr.gif) WO1 = 9 months in-service as SMWOG.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w2-clr.gif) WO2 = Technician ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w3-clr.gif) WO3 = Senior ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w4-clr.gif) WO4 = Master ranking in a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w5-clr.gif) CW5 = 1x Master ranking, 1x Senior ranking (?) in another, plus time-in-grade.

      If you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

      WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

      As the "proposed" NCO program appears to me right now, is nothing but a parallel track for members to progress upon.  In reality, stripes and bars/leaves will mean the exact same thing.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on October 30, 2013, 08:15:45 AM
      Quote from: Panache on October 30, 2013, 04:39:35 AMIf you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

      WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

      Actually a pretty good ideal. So as a Colonel and former Wing Commander, will revert to CWO-6? That would be what I disagree too. Also a Lt Col retiree from active duty will start as a WO-1? (actually not a bad ideal either)

      I do not think the majority of our membership will go along with this proposal. 

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on October 30, 2013, 08:40:24 AM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on October 30, 2013, 08:15:45 AM
      Quote from: Panache on October 30, 2013, 04:39:35 AMWO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

      Actually a pretty good ideal. So as a Colonel and former Wing Commander, will revert to CWO-6? That would be what I disagree too. Also a Lt Col retiree from active duty will start as a WO-1? (actually not a bad ideal either)

      No, the Colonel and Wing Commander will revert to whatever Warrant Officer grade he had earned before or was eligible for.  This will help mitigate the phenomena of a Colonel serving coffee and donuts at a meeting while a Captain is in command.

      And, yes, if a active duty Lt. Colonel retires, he would start at WO1 unless he has a occupational waiver to a higher grade (which, being a former O5, one would assume he would.)

      Basically, the WO grades show job performance/technical skill, and the Officer grades show current command position.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on October 30, 2013, 09:40:11 AM
      Just to clarify a couple of points on my crazy scheme...

      There will be no direct appointments to "command" grades.  Period.

      Direct appointments to Warrant Officer grades is possible for those with particular skills or educational backgrounds.  Pilots can be appointed to WO1, those with appropriate four and six-year degrees (Registered Nurses, etc.) will be eligible for appointments to WO2. Those holding doctorates or equivalents (Lawyers, Doctors, etc.) will be eligible for appoints to WO3.  Direct appointments can not be promoted until meeting the technical skill requirements for the next higher grade.

      Flight Officers, Technical Flight Officers, and Senior Flight Officers would be those Warrant Officer grades for senior members between the ages of 18 and 21.  Upon reaching their 21st birthday, their grade will be converted to the equivalent WO rank. (FO to WO1, TFO to WO2, SFO to WO3.) 

      2nd Lieutenant will be for command-track training, as well as some wing staff positions. 1st Lieutenant will be for the two squadron deputy commanders (Seniors and Cadets), as well as some higher-level wing staff positions.  Captains will be Squadron commanders, as well as the Group Vice-Commander.  And so forth, up the chain.

      While it would probably require a pretty drastic attitude shift in CAP, reverting to the Warrant Officer grades should not be seen as a bad thing or a demotion.  Indeed, it will be possible to earn promotion in the Warrant Officer grades while serving in a Command position, if you meet the requirements.  In the RealMilitaryโ„ข, at least in the Army, CW4 and CW5's are seen as a force to be reckoned with, and are highly respected.  More so than anybody wearing less an eagle or a star on their collar.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on October 30, 2013, 01:32:36 PM
      Quote from: Panache on October 30, 2013, 04:39:35 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on October 29, 2013, 09:28:53 PM
      I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

      WO1=2LT
      WO2=1LT
      WO3=CAPT
      CWO=MAJ

      LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

      If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

      +1

      Make the rank and file members Warrant Officers, with your WO grade directly tied to your technical skill.  "Commissioned" ranks are only for command personnel or those training for command (i.e. 2nd Lieutenants) or command staff.

      SMWOG = Starting point.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w1-clr.gif) WO1 = 9 months in-service as SMWOG.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w2-clr.gif) WO2 = Technician ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w3-clr.gif) WO3 = Senior ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w4-clr.gif) WO4 = Master ranking in a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

      (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/officers/w5-clr.gif) CW5 = 1x Master ranking, 1x Senior ranking (?) in another, plus time-in-grade.

      If you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

      WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

      As the "proposed" NCO program appears to me right now, is nothing but a parallel track for members to progress upon.  In reality, stripes and bars/leaves will mean the exact same thing.

      Not a bad idea but I would suggest:
      SMWOG:  Starting point:
      Level 1 Completion:  WO1
      Level 2 Completion:  CWO2
      Level 3 Completion:  CWO3
      Level 4 Completion:  CWO4
      Level 5 Completion:  CWO5

      eliminate all officer ranks.
      So, "Professional appointments?  They go away.  If a member is not fully qualified to exercise the rank they don't get to wear it.
      Since the USAF does not use the WO Rank, this become CAP Distinctive.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on October 30, 2013, 02:12:53 PM
      So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?  If doing away with all professional appointments, I guess one should also do away with prior military grades and start with SMWOG??  I guess this would also do away with the NCO program.  hmmmmm.  Something to consider..  Nah....


      And how about instead of SMWOG they could be WOC (Warrant Officer Candidate)??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ColonelJack on October 30, 2013, 03:57:53 PM
      Quote from: Grumpy on October 30, 2013, 12:00:07 AM
      "That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

      It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet."

      Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?  Come up with a program, put it into effect and then figure out the training and responsibilities it  ;)?

      "We have to pass the bill to know what's in it!"

      Jack
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 30, 2013, 04:14:24 PM
      Or we could have "members" and "commanders".

      Leave the PD badges and ribbons alone, they'll show what you've done, and the CC's badge would indicate the echelon.

      Salute "commanders", say "Good Day" to everyone else.

      Done.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JC004 on October 30, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
      I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on October 30, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 30, 2013, 02:12:53 PM
      So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?  If doing away with all professional appointments, I guess one should also do away with prior military grades and start with SMWOG??  I guess this would also do away with the NCO program.  hmmmmm.  Something to consider..  Nah....


      And how about instead of SMWOG they could be WOC (Warrant Officer Candidate)??
      and your point would be? 
      ABSOLUTELY.  I look around and see Former Field Artillery 06's, Aviation W3's & W5's.  An Armor E9, etc.  Other than basic military customs and traditions very few of the former skill set has application in the CAP.  Maybe an allowance (and a small one for former USAF personnel but not much of one). 
      An argument that former Real Militray Officers and NCO's have a set of "people skills" well so do successful educators and business people.  If anything, real civilian managers have the edge because they have to develop real people skills for those below as well as above them in pay grade. 
      I have nothing against former military being retired military myself, but a CAP unit is not a tank crew, gun crew, infantry squad, etc.   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 30, 2013, 04:34:57 PM
      Quote from: JC004 on October 30, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
      I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume.

      That's why Commanders, as well as those on review boards, need to take a critical look at those personnel who may be cutting it close on performance. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on October 30, 2013, 05:53:03 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on October 30, 2013, 02:12:53 PM
      So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?

      While serving in the command position as Wing Commander and National Commander, they would be Colonels and a Major General, respectively.  But when they're not actively in a command billet, their WO grade would be whatever they would be qualified for.  Being (blank) commander does not automatically confer WO grade.  One must earn that.

      Essentially, WO grade is tied to the person, Command grade is tied to the position.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: vento on October 30, 2013, 06:26:51 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2013, 04:14:24 PM
      Or we could have "members" and "commanders".

      Leave the PD badges and ribbons alone, they'll show what you've done, and the CC's badge would indicate the echelon.

      Salute "commanders", say "Good Day" to everyone else.

      Done.

      Too much good sense here. It is overwhelming for the CAP space time continuum. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 30, 2013, 07:04:53 PM
      The issue there is that it takes us away from our Heritage, and further from the Air Force.

      I would like us go back to where there Grade Allotments, based on percentages, or numbers- whichever is lower. I've been told that prior to the mid 80's that they did this.

      If we went back to this, and had to compete for the higher grade,  Then I think that the rank would have more meaning than what it does now.  We could also tie this into the NCO grade as well.

      Promotion criteria would be based on PD level, competence, experience, well rounded-ness, staff duties, etc.

      NCO's would be doers, ie the staff members.
      Officers would be Commanders (CC/CDC/CDS) and Director Staff Postions

      If, multiple hats are worn, highest grade wins.
      Grade is permanent for successful tour of duty.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on October 30, 2013, 07:14:30 PM
      An interesting point, Warrant Officers really seem to be more in-line with what we really do.  They can be pilots, they can run sub-units and they can be "grunts" actually doing the work.  And if we ever needed to really supplement the USAF, we could co-exist and not disrupt any power plays.  We would be outside the "normal" grade system.

      Really, we are not commissioned officers (even in command) as we don't have that piece of paper from the US Congress, that makes us all "field" commissions, as we get it from inside the CAP organization. 

      From Wikipedia:
      "Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the uniformed services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States))

      Fun to think of, but I doubt it would ever materialize.  Bummer.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on October 30, 2013, 08:06:45 PM
      If we do the NCO program, would this be a good time to implement the fail three promotion boards and you are out scheme??   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ProdigalJim on October 30, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
      Quote from: Papabird on October 30, 2013, 07:14:30 PM
      An interesting point, Warrant Officers really seem to be more in-line with what we really do.  They can be pilots, they can run sub-units and they can be "grunts" actually doing the work.  And if we ever needed to really supplement the USAF, we could co-exist and not disrupt any power plays.  We would be outside the "normal" grade system.

      Really, we are not commissioned officers (even in command) as we don't have that piece of paper from the US Congress, that makes us all "field" commissions, as we get it from inside the CAP organization. 

      From Wikipedia:
      "Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the uniformed services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States))

      Fun to think of, but I doubt it would ever materialize.  Bummer.

      I see where you're going with that, and I kinda sorta get it. But.

      I would argue that not all CAP "officers" are in fact only "single-track specialty officers." Operationally, I'm an MO (but a still-learning one...I have 24 actual MO missions so I've got a way to go) and a GTM1. My PD specialties are: ES, Cadet Programs and Command. As the CC, I also spend a significant amount of time engaged in Safety, PA, Logistics and Admin, even though I have staff officers assigned to those billets.

      I'm more in favor of making the present grade system more meaningful, for both officer grades and NCO grades. Make officer promotions a little harder to get, make the "exemplary performance" standard the norm, and so forth. I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

      An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

      I am not arguing that people should do more; I'm arguing only that those who want (or are only able) to do just a little then accept that, as a result, they don't get to be a Lt. Col. The thing that gets me more than any other single thing is when someone raises their hand, says, "Yes, count on me," and then doesn't deliver. When confronted with a broken promise, the reflex answer is, "Gee, we're only volunteers."

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on October 31, 2013, 02:02:33 AM
      What they could do is bring everybody in at E-1 and earn their 3, 5, 7 and 9 levels like we did in the AF in the old 50-23 days and then if they wanted to be command staff go in to the officer training route.

      It would take longer but would receive a lot more training.  Let me get my vest before you reply.

      Just a thought and no mention of 39-1. ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on October 31, 2013, 02:15:10 AM
      And I still say this is a solution looking for a problem. ::)

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Alaric on October 31, 2013, 02:21:16 AM
      Quote from: JC004 on October 30, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
      I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume.

      I've never heard of a senior member using CAP to build their resume.  In my experience so few people know what CAP is, and even fewer care about what you do as a volunteer how would that even work?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: TarRiverRat on October 31, 2013, 02:44:09 AM
      Here is what I found concerning Enlisted grade for C.A.P. during WWII:

      CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM INSIGNIA SINCE 1941

      C.A.P. Enlisted Grade Insignia 1942-1944 page 29

      Grade            Position

      Master Sergeant      Mechanic A&E
      First Sergeant      Squadron First Sergeant
      Technical Sergeant      Pilot / Mechanic A or E/Radio Operator
      Staff Sergeant      Observer
      Sergeant         Photographer
      Corporal         Clerk
      Private First Class      Stenographer
      Private         All other Personnel
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on October 31, 2013, 03:11:46 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 29, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
      Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it :). My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".

      Hey Top!

      Good to see you and hear you again!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on October 31, 2013, 03:21:11 AM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

      :clap:
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on October 31, 2013, 05:50:33 AM
      Quote from: TarRiverRat on October 31, 2013, 02:44:09 AM
      Here is what I found concerning Enlisted grade for C.A.P. during WWII:

      CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM INSIGNIA SINCE 1941

      C.A.P. Enlisted Grade Insignia 1942-1944 page 29

      Grade            Position

      Master Sergeant      Mechanic A&E
      First Sergeant      Squadron First Sergeant
      Technical Sergeant      Pilot / Mechanic A or E/Radio Operator
      Staff Sergeant      Observer
      Sergeant         Photographer
      Corporal         Clerk
      Private First Class      Stenographer
      Private         All other Personnel

      This is kool, but our current org chart isn't set up for this billet structure, and it doesn't seem to be set up for promotions.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: TarRiverRat on October 31, 2013, 06:04:05 AM
      The one thing I did not see listed for assignments was that of Guard for the enlisted.  I have seen pics of privates to NCOs on guard duty with rifles.  May not have been a particular assignment but was for every enlisted to handle instead.  As far as promotions, they could promote up the line.  Some NCOs were promoted to Flight Officers and up to the Officer rank.  Most Officer grades that I have seen was 2d Lts during the war.  Not sure when it started for someone coming into CAP to be promoted to 2d Lt within 6 months of joining.  It did not happen during WWII.  You would have seen more enlisted during that time and Officer grade was usually reserved for the Pilots and crew and Command, but you still has NCOs that were Pilots and Observers as well.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on October 31, 2013, 11:42:12 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on October 31, 2013, 03:21:11 AM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

      :clap:

      Because you cant be that guy with 1LT bars on your collar?  You do realize these "NCOs" wont always be prior military?  But because they will have stripes they will suddenly become "gurus"?  Why cant a guru be a  Captain?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 11:47:39 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on October 31, 2013, 03:11:46 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 29, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
      Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it :). My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".


      Hey Sir, just playing nice :) I am having fun with the Cadets, reminds me of time long ago :)


      Hey Top!

      Good to see you and hear you again!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on October 31, 2013, 03:06:18 PM
      Quote from: ProdigalJim on October 30, 2013, 08:27:47 PM

      I see where you're going with that, and I kinda sorta get it. But.

      I would argue that not all CAP "officers" are in fact only "single-track specialty officers." Operationally, I'm an MO (but a still-learning one...I have 24 actual MO missions so I've got a way to go) and a GTM1. My PD specialties are: ES, Cadet Programs and Command. As the CC, I also spend a significant amount of time engaged in Safety, PA, Logistics and Admin, even though I have staff officers assigned to those billets.

      I'm more in favor of making the present grade system more meaningful, for both officer grades and NCO grades. Make officer promotions a little harder to get, make the "exemplary performance" standard the norm, and so forth. I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

      An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

      I am not arguing that people should do more; I'm arguing only that those who want (or are only able) to do just a little then accept that, as a result, they don't get to be a Lt. Col. The thing that gets me more than any other single thing is when someone raises their hand, says, "Yes, count on me," and then doesn't deliver. When confronted with a broken promise, the reflex answer is, "Gee, we're only volunteers."

      True, as I hold 4 Master, 1 Senior and 5 Tech ratings, I doubt I "qualify" as a "Warrant" either, but my "commission" paperwork...well, doesn't exist for CAP.   >:D

      I have played in the Pro/Vol world with a rural EMS and you are right, it's difficult (especially to keep up with the CEs). 

      I am always disappointed at the "only volunteers"  sentiment.  If you don't want to do it right, don't do it!  But that may be why I feel a little guilty pinning on the OLCs.  I earned the CAP version, but it still doesn't feel 100% right, you know?

      Just food for thought.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Walkman on October 31, 2013, 03:41:28 PM
      Quote from: ProdigalJim on October 30, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
      ...I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

      I can see the larger cadet and composite units being able to utilize the NCO corps more fully.

      Quote from: ProdigalJim on October 30, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
      An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

      I'm with you. I don't mind being a volunteer organization that holds people to certain standards if they want to join. Joining CAP isn't a right. Those that don't want to follow the rules, culture, and regs of the organization shouldn't be here. I like being challenged, having to work for my next promotion/PD rating/ES qual. I like taking care to ensure my uniform and grooming are correct. I like honoring our WWII heritage. Eclipse frequently mentions the "empty-shirts". That could be taken care of if we were not desperately taking every person that wandered in the door.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on October 31, 2013, 05:22:57 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on October 31, 2013, 11:42:12 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on October 31, 2013, 03:21:11 AM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:00:27 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
      As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

      Name one.

      We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.
      How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

      There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

      :clap:

      Because you cant be that guy with 1LT bars on your collar?  You do realize these "NCOs" wont always be prior military?  But because they will have stripes they will suddenly become "gurus"?  Why cant a guru be a  Captain?
      Why can't he be a TSgt?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on October 31, 2013, 05:32:29 PM
      My point exactly..... It doesn't matter.  It all comes down to what people think looks best on their uniform. It won't have anything to do what how things get done.   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 31, 2013, 05:22:57 PM

      Why can't he be a TSgt?

      That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
      AF style Officer
      Corp only Officer
      AF style NCO
      Corp only NCO

      It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 31, 2013, 05:22:57 PM

      Why can't he be a TSgt?

      That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
      AF style Officer
      Corp only Officer
      AF style NCO
      Corp only NCO

      It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.


      I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on October 31, 2013, 08:25:50 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PMIf this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period.

      Done.  Thanks!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on October 31, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years.


      That is simply a personal issue, and should have zero effect on how CAP conducts any form of business.

      CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army aux or the Navy or the Corps. We follow the AF traditions, and in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

      I see this as becoming an issue with sister service NCO's coming in and demanding the "Army/navy/corps way of doing things" and that is unacceptable.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
      And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 10:13:36 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 31, 2013, 05:22:57 PM

      Why can't he be a TSgt?

      That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
      AF style Officer
      Corp only Officer
      AF style NCO
      Corp only NCO

      It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.


      I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.

      It wasn't pointed at you.  For the vast majority of NCOs that join CAP decide to progress in the Officer grades than be a NCO, so why would we need to ban all Prior service NCOs?  The issue is do we really need NCOs?  What specific role do they play that can't be done as officers? 

      It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.  I will accept that is true, but I would like to know how does what insignia is worn affect duty performance?

      I truly understand that some prefer their former/current military grade, and want to continue that.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on October 31, 2013, 10:20:43 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
      And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.

      Point proven? What point?

      I am a former AF NCO and I see no need to perpetuate the "NCO vs officer" politics that occur when some have stripes and some have the shiny's.

      Limiting the pool of potential commanders, creating a "I'm just an NCO" attitude on top of the already ever prevalent "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and a myriad of other reasons is why I do not support even the initial concept of this idea.

      As a staff officer on multiple CAP levels I have no time for the "I'm just a volunteer" tude and I will have even less tolerance for the "just an NCO" excuse when...not if...but when it shows it's ugly head. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 10:21:32 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 10:13:36 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 31, 2013, 05:22:57 PM

      Why can't he be a TSgt?

      That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
      AF style Officer
      Corp only Officer
      AF style NCO
      Corp only NCO

      It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.


      I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.

      It wasn't pointed at you.  For the vast majority of NCOs that join CAP decide to progress in the Officer grades than be a NCO, so why would we need to ban all Prior service NCOs?  The issue is do we really need NCOs?  What specific role do they play that can't be done as officers? 

      It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.  I will accept that is true, but I would like to know how does what insignia is worn affect duty performance?

      I truly understand that some prefer their former/current military grade, and want to continue that.


      Then I apologize, my point on baning former NCOs is all this elite, special group talk I see. I am still processing the CAP/Air Force  way since I have only been in CAP for a year. I have worked pretty close to the Air Force since my occupational specialty required that I work closely with The Air Mobility groups. I never had an issue working with any of the services and even after all my time in the Army I still can.
      NCOs at least Army NCOs look at things differently but adjusting is also a requirement. I do know that I have to interest in being a commander in CAP but I will continue to serve my Commanders where I am needed.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 10:29:32 PM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 31, 2013, 10:20:43 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
      And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.

      Point proven? What point?

      I am a former AF NCO and I see no need to perpetuate the "NCO vs officer" politics that occur when some have stripes and some have the shiny's.

      Limiting the pool of potential commanders, creating a "I'm just an NCO" attitude on top of the already ever prevalent "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and a myriad of other reasons is why I do not support even the initial concept of this idea.

      As a staff officer on multiple CAP levels I have no time for the "I'm just a volunteer" tude and I will have even less tolerance for the "just an NCO" excuse when...not if...but when it shows it's ugly head.

      My point being that with all this talk about special little clicks is showing that mentality is  already in place. I don't play that officer vs NCO BS other than good natured ribbing out of sight and sound of Cadets and mostly with prior service members. As for limiting the pool, from what it am seeing in the squadrons I am exposed to its a Hey You Position with a few honest vollunteers stepping up.
      While some may not want to recognize the vollunteer nature of the organization it's is still there. It's much harder to influence members that can get overwhelmed and just bow out. I dont have beat this into the ground but so,etimes you get lucky and you get a Commander that can motivate and a tally lead, other times you get , well you all know.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Fubar on October 31, 2013, 11:02:13 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 10:13:36 PMIt has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.

      When it was said, were any examples provided?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 01, 2013, 12:27:42 AM
      Quote from: Fubar on October 31, 2013, 11:02:13 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2013, 10:13:36 PMIt has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.

      When it was said, were any examples provided?

      This and a couple others in this thread.
      Quote from: lordmonar on October 29, 2013, 10:12:02 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2013, 10:01:50 PM
      They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

      Are the stripes like a flash drive?
      Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

      Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

      The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

      I simply ask that you give it a chance instead of just automatically gainsaying it out the gate.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 01, 2013, 02:08:51 AM
      Quotein the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

      Really? I never knew that... I learned something new today.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 31, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years.


      That is simply a personal issue, and should have zero effect on how CAP conducts any form of business.

      CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army aux or the Navy or the Corps. We follow the AF traditions, and in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

      I see this as becoming an issue with sister service NCO's coming in and demanding the "Army/navy/corps way of doing things" and that is unacceptable.


      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 01, 2013, 03:13:07 AM
      I saw it when I was in Misawa. But that was mostly spooks, and a few aviation folks in the F-16 units.

      It was confusing, based on previous experience with the other services.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: CAPAPRN on November 01, 2013, 03:52:06 AM

      AFI34-1201 4 OCTOBER 2006
      Chapter 8
      CUSTOMS AND COURTESIEs
      8.2. Other Marks of Respect.
      8.2.1. Juniors shall show deference to seniors at all times by recognizing their presence and by employing
      a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward them.

      e.g. "Good afternoon SMSgt Jones"  therefore "Good afternoon sir" became easier. There is no AFI stating NCO's are to be addressed as Sir/Ma'am.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 04:04:57 AM
      Never seen it, never heard it.

      e.g. "Good afternoon SMSgt Jones"  therefore "Good afternoon Sargeant" became easier.

      The whole idea of our concept is that "They" don't want to be officers.  Traditionally Sir refers to officer.  (And would therefore be an insult to our bonafide NCO's that are insisting on adding an NCO corps to CAP.)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 01, 2013, 04:19:24 AM
      Happens every day on active duty AF. Sir or ma'am to SSGT and above.

      Even the TI's at basic are called sir/ma'am
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 01, 2013, 04:31:07 AM
      Oh, basic is a whole different ball game. Special arena, special rules.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 01, 2013, 04:36:54 AM
      Quote from: SarDragon on November 01, 2013, 04:31:07 AM
      Oh, basic is a whole different ball game. Special arena, special rules.

      Ok, let me put it this way.

      In the 3 commands I was assigned to plus in basic and in tech school, all the NCO's (including when I made SSGT) was called sir/ma'am.

      Now, maybe those 3 units in 3 different MAJCOMS was doing things wrong but...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 01, 2013, 04:41:42 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 01, 2013, 04:36:54 AM
      Quote from: SarDragon on November 01, 2013, 04:31:07 AM
      Oh, basic is a whole different ball game. Special arena, special rules.

      Ok, let me put it this way.

      In the 3 commands I was assigned to plus in basic and in tech school, all the NCO's (including when I made SSGT) was called sir/ma'am.

      Now, maybe those 3 units in 3 different MAJCOMS was doing things wrong but...

      I'm agreeing with you, while pointing out that, for all services, what happens at basic can be different from the real world.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ColonelJack on November 01, 2013, 01:07:16 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

      They sure are called "sir" during basic training.  It's the first word out of your mouth whenever you talk to a TI.

      Memories ...

      Jack
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JC004 on November 01, 2013, 01:40:15 PM
      (http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/horse.gif)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

      It's an Air Force custom; I don't believe it's spelled out in any AFI. I've been in the Air Force for over 17 years both as an officer and NCO and it's always been perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am". In fact, I remembered being yelled at by a SrA when I first enlisted because I didn't call her "ma'am". In the Air Force, you don't usually hear anyone being called just plain "sergeant". It's more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
      So, if real active duty NCO's want to be called Sir, why is there a problem with them being officers in CAP and rightfully being called Sir?  Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
      So, if real active duty NCO's want to be called Sir, why is there a problem with them being officers in CAP and rightfully being called Sir?  Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??

      What ever happened to calling someone Sir or Ma'am out of simple politeness or respect?  Wow!  What a novel idea.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 01, 2013, 05:54:34 PM
      That whole line of "I work for a living" disgusts me.
      Everyone is there to work, everyone has a function, together, everyone advances.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 06:10:53 PM
      Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??

      Hey, I didn't make it up, NCO's did and I heard it many times in the military..  All work for a living, but not all carry an M-4 to work..

      Further heritage notes "Sir" is a connotation of title, such as knighthood.  Not necessarily used by the rank and file.  Also, CAP Cadets do not refer to CAP Cadet NCO's as Sir. 

      I guess we can make it optional, like, "So help me God" at USAFA..   Why have customs, courtesies, or tradition in the military anyhow??  I am so glad I was old school military, so help me God!!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 07:26:47 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 06:10:53 PM
      Also, CAP Cadets do not refer to CAP Cadet NCO's as Sir. 

      Many cadets learn this at encampment and other similar activities. I suspect this comes from prior service members from other services. When I was a cadet, we had a C/Lt Col and C/Maj who were both in the Army National Guard. They incorporated many Army themes into our cadet training. A couple of years later, we had a Marine Reservist and he did the same thing, incorporating Marine themes into our training.

      Why else would we wear a reverse flag on our BDUs? The Air Force doesn't, so I suspect whoever came up with the idea was looking at the Army BDU/ACU.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 01, 2013, 07:53:52 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on October 31, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on October 31, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
      Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years.


      That is simply a personal issue, and should have zero effect on how CAP conducts any form of business.

      CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army aux or the Navy or the Corps. We follow the AF traditions, and in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

      I see this as becoming an issue with sister service NCO's coming in and demanding the "Army/navy/corps way of doing things" and that is unacceptable.


      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.
      I called all my NCO's Sir/Ma'am except maybe the chief.
      Day one at BMTS it was "Sir! Airman Harris Reports"!

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 01, 2013, 07:58:22 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
      So, if real active duty NCO's want to be called Sir, why is there a problem with them being officers in CAP and rightfully being called Sir?  Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??
      I hate that joke and I yelled at all my peers who told it.   It only teaches the airman to disrespect the officers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 01, 2013, 08:18:14 PM
      I can't speak for all old Army NCOs but telling someone don't call me Sir, I work for a living was always a joke shared up close and personal and never near the wrong ears. Some folks need to be very aware of what they say , to whom and who is listening. Others need to lighten up and enjoy some humor before they implode. I had a young Soldier who was flustered call a CPT "Sergeant" without missing a beat the CPT said " Do I look like I have the IQ of a rock? I am a commissioned officer not someone whose parents were brother and sister"  I laughed, the PVT apologized and moved off never to are that mistake again.
      Some folks wear their rank and others are their rank.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:22:30 PM
      Quote from: lordmonar on November 01, 2013, 07:58:22 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
      So, if real active duty NCO's want to be called Sir, why is there a problem with them being officers in CAP and rightfully being called Sir?  Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??
      I hate that joke and I yelled at all my peers who told it.   It only teaches the airman to disrespect the officers.

      Not to mention the fact that you're correcting them for using everyday common courtesy.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 01, 2013, 08:25:50 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 06:10:53 PM
      Whatever happened to NCO pride and the old, "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"??

      Hey, I didn't make it up, NCO's did and I heard it many times in the military..  All work for a living, but not all carry an M-4 to work..

      Further heritage notes "Sir" is a connotation of title, such as knighthood.  Not necessarily used by the rank and file.  Also, CAP Cadets do not refer to CAP Cadet NCO's as Sir. 

      I guess we can make it optional, like, "So help me God" at USAFA..   Why have customs, courtesies, or tradition in the military anyhow??  I am so glad I was old school military, so help me God!!

      What's the problem with "So help me god" at the AFA?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:27:28 PM
      "They" are working on removing it from the honor code.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 01, 2013, 08:30:21 PM
      Quote from: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:27:28 PM
      "They" are working on removing it from the honor code.

      "They"?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:58:32 PM
      The AFA announced last Friday that after having been sued by Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder, Mikey Weinstein, the clause, "So help me God" will become optional in the cadet oath.

      I know, I know, they said optional.  That's why I said "trying" to take it out of the oath.  But, IMHO,  that's just the first step.

      I read the article in Military.com dated 28 Oct 2013.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 01, 2013, 10:49:42 PM
      Quote from: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:58:32 PM
      The AFA announced last Friday that after having been sued by Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder, Mikey Weinstein, the clause, "So help me God" will become optional in the cadet oath.

      I know, I know, they said optional.  That's why I said "trying" to take it out of the oath.  But, IMHO,  that's just the first step.

      I read the article in Military.com dated 28 Oct 2013.

      So what's the issue?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 11:57:25 PM
      The issue is that one of the reasons to bring the NCO program into CAP (I know it's been here, but management is attempting to expand it) is based upon the tradition of NCO's and the tradition that NCO's don't want to be officers due to well, tradition.  The issue is that saying "So help me God" has been traditional at USAFA since it's inception and because the atheists are so fearful of hearing God's name they want it removed from tradition, thereby destroying tradition.  If tradition is so easily destroyed, why need an NCO program??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 02, 2013, 12:47:35 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

      It's an Air Force custom; I don't believe it's spelled out in any AFI. I've been in the Air Force for over 17 years both as an officer and NCO and it's always been perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am". In fact, I remembered being yelled at by a SrA when I first enlisted because I didn't call her "ma'am". In the Air Force, you don't usually hear anyone being called just plain "sergeant". It's more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant".

      Never in my 31-1/2 years was I addressed as sir except for that accident and a few times by foriegn nationals who called everybody sir.
      I was normally addressed as Sgt Hall or when I was on the jet, by my crew position, which is normal.

      But hey, most of my career was spent in either the Air Guard or the Reserve. So maybe the Active Duty types do it differently. Wouldn't be the first time...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 02, 2013, 12:48:18 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 01, 2013, 11:57:25 PM
      The issue is that one of the reasons to bring the NCO program into CAP (I know it's been here, but management is attempting to expand it) is based upon the tradition of NCO's and the tradition that NCO's don't want to be officers due to well, tradition.  The issue is that saying "So help me God" has been traditional at USAFA since it's inception and because the atheists are so fearful of hearing God's name they want it removed from tradition, thereby destroying tradition.  If tradition is so easily destroyed, why need an NCO program??

      It's optional, not removed. There's no war on religion here, just common sense. If I SWEAR an oath, why would I lie and say that part if I don't believe in a God? Chriaitians won't worship/allow other sect members to worship in their churches. You wont see a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist in a Catholic Church for prayer. This really isn't any different. No different from the Pledge, which had Under God put in during the 50s.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 12:47:35 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 01, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 01, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
      Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
      You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

      It's an Air Force custom; I don't believe it's spelled out in any AFI. I've been in the Air Force for over 17 years both as an officer and NCO and it's always been perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am". In fact, I remembered being yelled at by a SrA when I first enlisted because I didn't call her "ma'am". In the Air Force, you don't usually hear anyone being called just plain "sergeant". It's more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant".

      Never in my 31-1/2 years was I addressed as sir except for that accident and a few times by foriegn nationals who called everybody sir.
      I was normally addressed as Sgt Hall or when I was on the jet, by my crew position, which is normal.

      But hey, most of my career was spent in either the Air Guard or the Reserve. So maybe the Active Duty types do it differently. Wouldn't be the first time...

      First of all, thank you for your service. If you read my post carefully, you'll notice I said it's "perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am"", not that it's required. I also said that it's "more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant"", which is how you were normally addressed (i.e. Sgt Hall). Unlike the Army, in the Air Force we don't usually say "yes, sergeant" or "sergeant, Airman Smith reports as ordered"; we use "sir" or "ma'am". Also, I've never heard an Air Force NCO correct an airman because he/she said "sir" instead of "sergeant"; I've heard Army NCOs do that. Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 02, 2013, 01:55:08 AM
      Amen!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 02, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM
      Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

      That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
      But hey, do what you want.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 03:10:12 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM
      Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

      That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
      But hey, do what you want.

      If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 02, 2013, 04:10:23 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 03:10:12 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM
      Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

      That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
      But hey, do what you want.

      If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.


      Ah, but AFI 36-2618, 27 Feb 2009, The Enlisted Force Structure, would disagree with you.

      But MTI's are never wrong, right? :o
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 02, 2013, 05:22:09 AM
      Addressing an NCO as Sir is the same as saluting him/her and that never happens.  Further:

      8 AFI1-1 7 AUGUST 2012
      1.6.5. Titles of Address. Military personnel are addressed by their grade or title. Pay grade terms (e.g., E-9, O-6) are not to be used to address or identify military personnel. Officers are addressed by their grade (e.g., captain, major, general, etc.) or ―sir or ―ma'am.

      Doesn't say the same for NCO's.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 02, 2013, 06:09:02 AM
      Yep....know what the regs say. 

      Know what my TI taught me.

      Know what I did.

      Sir and Ma'am are acceptable terms of address for NCO's.

      Sgt is ALSO an acceptable term of address for NCO's.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 03:31:06 PM
      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 04:10:23 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 03:10:12 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM
      Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

      That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
      But hey, do what you want.

      If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.
      Ah, but AFI 36-2618, 27 Feb 2009, The Enlisted Force Structure, would disagree with you.

      AFI 36-2618 is not a good reference to support your argument because it refers to title and term of address. A lieutenant colonel can be addressed as "lieutenant colonel" or "colonel" just like a staff sergeant can be addressed as "staff sergeant" or " sergeant". AFI 1-1 is a better source to support your argument as it specifically states that officers may also be addressed as "sir" or "ma'am", but it doesn't say the same about enlisted. It also doesn't prohibit the use and you won't find a reference that does. AFIs are one thing and tradition and culture are another.

      Quote from: PHall on November 02, 2013, 04:10:23 AM
      But MTI's are never wrong, right? :o

      Sergeant Hall, I think you meant to say, "But MTI's are never wrong, right, sir?"  >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 02, 2013, 04:02:38 PM
      In "Laser Tag" we call everyone "sir", even the girls   ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2013, 04:52:58 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 02, 2013, 05:22:09 AM
      Addressing an NCO as Sir is the same as saluting him/her and that never happens.

      Never?

      Those thousands of USAF and Marine Recruits that go through BMT every year are going to be super-relieved.
      Marines Boot Camp - Meet the Drill Instructors (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_us-YBMZM#)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 02, 2013, 06:26:24 PM
      Marine Drill Instructors are addressed as "Sir" until the day you graduate.  Once you graduate, you address them by rank.  When I walked my family around MCRD San Diego mere minutes after graduation, a DI would pass and I was stand at attention and say "Good afternoon Sir".  One DI stopped and said "We are brothers now Private, from now on use rank."  Even several weeks into infantry school we all still did it.  Also, in boot camp you refer to everything in the 3rd person.  "Sir, this recruit needs to use the head, Sir"  or "Sir, Recruit Smith needs to use the head, Sir"

      Still sends chills up my spine 20 yrs later
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 02, 2013, 06:48:13 PM
      This good be beneficial to us.  But there needs to be a solid base program first and foremost.  Without that it will fail.  Now as I wear both stripes and bars, I think there is potential here for success across the board.  But again there needs to be a clear cut base program first.  Right now to jumpstart only allow current or former NCOs into it until the bugs get workedvout.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 02, 2013, 11:10:35 PM
      Who would have thought it...someone besides me advocating a Warrant tier!

      When I was in BMT many years ago, the first word out of your mouth was "sir" or "ma'am."  Don't repeat it after your statement, though...MTI's did NOT like what they called a "sir (or ma'am) sandwich."

      AFTER BMT it is NOT the norm.  I always called NCO's by rank, Commissioned and Warrant Officers "sir, ma'am" or by rank (or by "Mr/Miss/Ms" for Warrant Officers).  I usually addressed CMSgt's as "Chief."

      If I were to see my old MTI today (if he's still living) I would call him whatever level of Sergeant he attained.

      My first CAP unit had an AFRES TSgt.  He was the "go to guy" on C&C's, and he told Cadets AND Seniors NOT to call a noncommissioned officer "Sir" unless you are in BASIC TRAINING.

      The services that require that in Basic are the Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard (for the first couple of weeks).  I doubt it about the Navy, and my dad told me you never, EVER called an Army NCO "sir," in Basic or not.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 03, 2013, 01:16:56 AM
      As is typical with most thing USAFish......is that there is not consistency.

      22 years in the USAF and I never had a problem with calling NCO's sir or ma'am.  I never corrected an airman who called me Sergeant nor one who called me Sir.

      Got yelled at by a lot of other service's NCOs....but for the most part I just pressed on.

      So....bottom line.....sir or ma'am are acceptable terms of respect to anyone.  If an NCO wishes to be addressed as Sergeant, or Senior (which is the new fad creeping into the USAF lately) then you correct them, respectfully (as the airman/cadet did not mean any disrespect) and press on.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 03, 2013, 01:37:01 AM
      Ye gad, with all the other things in this world that we should really be worried about, we're arguing over simple courtesy.  Maybe "Hey you" or "dude" would be OK.  Of course if the person were a female, as opposed to a lady or women, we could say "Hey dudette".   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ProdigalJim on November 03, 2013, 02:42:23 AM
      I don't think I've ever started a thread that generated 400+ posts. And it wasn't even a uniform thread...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 03, 2013, 03:13:10 AM
      Don't get too cocky.... you're only #9 on the top 10 threads (by replies) list.  But it is one of the very few of those threads that isn't about uniforms. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 03, 2013, 03:20:06 AM
      I think the new top 3 will be uniforms, nco's and rangers.........
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: arajca on November 03, 2013, 03:39:40 AM
      Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 03, 2013, 02:42:23 AM
      I don't think I've ever started a thread that generated 400+ posts. And it wasn't even a uniform thread...
      Not for a lack of trying on folks parts...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 03, 2013, 03:58:55 AM
      Pft. My ABU topic also hit 9 long pages. If it wasn't for some poopoo posts probably be on the top 3 easy.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 03, 2013, 04:40:20 AM
      WIW in boot camp, all NCOs were called sir, until graduation.

      That was at Great Mistakes, in 1969. Things may have changed since then.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 03, 2013, 10:04:18 AM
      Quote from: SarDragon on November 03, 2013, 04:40:20 AM
      WIW in boot camp, all NCOs were called sir, until graduation.

      Back in my Army basic training days, in the early 90's, anybody who wore the Brown Round was referred to as "Drill Sergeant", no ifs-and-or-buts. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ol'fido on November 03, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
      A few bullet points on my humble opinion of this whole thing:

      1. I don't care much whether we do this or not. I do think that there ought to be a method by which the NCOs we have can be promoted and the TIG requirements for this should be on par with the RM. No 23 year old CMSgts IOW.

      2. Yes, we could probably do just as well with all officers, no officers just positional titles, or some combination of the two. I would prefer it if we kept it the way it is with the proviso of point one about promoting. I would also like it if CAP, the AF, and the entire armed forces went back to a more military style of organization designations. In other words, I wish we had wing "Cadet Programs Officers" rather than "Directors of Cadet Programs", etc.

      3. While I would like to see CAP go to fewer uniforms just for simplicity's sake, I am happy wearing my polo, grays and whites, and BBDUs, etc. I would like an option for prior military to wear some of their military bling on these. I don't think letting somebody wear the same rack across the board or one specialty badge, wings, or occupational badge would cause the "Apocalypse".

      4. If we have NCOs, let's not get torqued up about every little detail like what or when we refer to them such as Sergeant or Sir/Maam. Every new program will have it's teething pains and every one will have its bugs that need to be worked out. This will get done eventually although it may not be to everyone's satisfaction.

      5. My view of the NCOs vs. Officers thing with regard to the roles they would play in the organization is that I would look at each of them not as an officer or NCO but as a Senior Member. I have seen over the years good and bad officers and good and bad NCOs. I would much rather work with a good person than a bad one no matter what rank they have on their collar.

      6. As for what other people or organizations think of us because we have this or that, they will judge us by a) Our willingness to show up ready and able to go and b) our performance after we show up and not what we wear on our collar.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JeffDG on November 03, 2013, 02:31:50 PM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 03, 2013, 03:20:06 AM
      I think the new top 3 will be uniforms, nco's and rangers.........
      Quick, someone post a thread for what uniforms are appropriate for NCO rangers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 04, 2013, 01:24:51 AM
      Once when deployed I had a conversation that went something like this......
      seeing a USMC 1sgt getting onto the ambus..

      Me: Mornin' Top, how are you?
      1Sgt:  My rank is FIRST SERGEANT!
      Me:  Sorry, First Sergeant, around here we call they guy with the diamond in the middle TOP or SHIRT.
      1Sgt:  Well in the Marines we call each other by our Full Ranks; what do they call you?
      Me:  My rank is Senior Airman, but being that I am an Air Force Reservist, they mostly call me Mark.
      1Sgt:  No recognition of the humor involved...only look of "...God I hate the other services...."

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: stillamarine on November 04, 2013, 05:15:01 PM
      Actually in the Marine Corps, Top is reserved for Master Sgts. Although that is usually a privilege reserved for someone you know or they tell you that you can call them Top.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 04, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
      In the Army you have two types of First Sergeant's ones that understand that Top, First Shirt, Top kick etc are a sign of respect and come from a different time. The others have a stroke and correct you. As I said before there are those that wear the rank and others that live it. :)

      If you really want to live dangerously walk up to a SGM/CSM and call them Smage, then run...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 05, 2013, 03:41:52 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 04, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
      If you really want to live dangerously walk up to a SGM/CSM and call them Smage, then run...

      What if you call them, "Shirley"?   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 05, 2013, 04:33:22 AM
      Quote"Do I look like I have the IQ of a rock? I am a commissioned officer not someone whose parents were brother and sister."

      :clap:

      Darn Top, I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard!  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 05, 2013, 04:35:43 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 01, 2013, 10:49:42 PM
      Quote from: Grumpy on November 01, 2013, 08:58:32 PM
      The AFA announced last Friday that after having been sued by Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder, Mikey Weinstein, the clause, "So help me God" will become optional in the cadet oath.

      I know, I know, they said optional.  That's why I said "trying" to take it out of the oath.  But, IMHO,  that's just the first step.

      I read the article in Military.com dated 28 Oct 2013.

      So what's the issue?

      Progressives... with too much time on their hands.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 05, 2013, 04:54:31 AM
      Quote from: JeffDG on November 03, 2013, 02:31:50 PM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 03, 2013, 03:20:06 AM
      I think the new top 3 will be uniforms, nco's and rangers.........
      Quick, someone post a thread for what uniforms are appropriate for NCO rangers.

      Tan beret, boxer shorts and combat boots.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 05, 2013, 11:09:47 AM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 05, 2013, 03:41:52 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 04, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
      If you really want to live dangerously walk up to a SGM/CSM and call them Smage, then run...

      What if you call them, "Shirley"?   8)

      You may confuse them and have more time to run but you will still die tired :)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 05, 2013, 11:11:23 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 05, 2013, 04:33:22 AM
      Quote"Do I look like I have the IQ of a rock? I am a commissioned officer not someone whose parents were brother and sister."

      :clap:

      Darn Top, I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard!  ;D

      Aha Sir if one can not laugh at themselves the they are trully in a very bad place :) Dr. Pepper is bad for you and our key board.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 06, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
      Awe... but carbonated sugar water is my only vice left.  :(

      I don't drink, I don't smoke, I avoid red meat and fatty foods, I don't do drugs, I don't run thru juicey girls in Itaewon anymore... but I have to have my Dr. Pepper.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Grumpy on November 06, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
      Awe... but carbonated sugar water is my only vice left.  :(

      I don't drink, I don't smoke, I avoid red meat and fatty foods, I don't do drugs, I don't run thru juicey girls in Itaewon anymore... but I have to have my Dr. Pepper.  ;)

      Ah yes, carbonated prune juice.  The wine of the Gods
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 06, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
      Awe... but carbonated sugar water is my only vice left.  :(

      I don't drink, I don't smoke, I avoid red meat and fatty foods, I don't do drugs, I don't run thru juicey girls in Itaewon anymore... but I have to have my Dr. Pepper.  ;)

      FTFY. Not appropriate for a family website sir.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 06, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 06, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
      Awe... but carbonated sugar water is my only vice left.  :(

      I don't drink, I don't smoke, I avoid red meat and fatty foods, I don't do drugs, I don't run thru juicey girls in Itaewon anymore... but I have to have my Dr. Pepper.  ;)

      FTFY. Not appropriate for a family website sir.

      Not complaining about a warning, but you do know what JUICY GIRLS are right ? It doesn't sound right but it's not what it seems. Just saying ......
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 06, 2013, 08:42:20 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 06, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 06, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 06, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
      Awe... but carbonated sugar water is my only vice left.  :(

      I don't drink, I don't smoke, I avoid red meat and fatty foods, I don't do drugs, I don't run thru juicey girls in Itaewon anymore... but I have to have my Dr. Pepper.  ;)

      FTFY. Not appropriate for a family website sir.

      Not complaining about a warning, but you do know what JUICY GIRLS are right ? It doesn't sound right but it's not what it seems. Just saying ......

      Dunno, urban dictionary describes them as expected....
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 06, 2013, 09:21:45 PM
      Would that be you pretty ladies talking troops into paying for overpriced, watered down drinks for a chance to talk with them. Mostly drunks sitting at me bar. Anything else isn't really in the job description. But the name does sound like its describing something dirty and no family oriented.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 06, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
      So, If we get CAP Specific NCO stripes: can we do away with the CAP on the Collar of all the uniforms? and can the "Circle US" be authorized on the Service Coat?  That way we are more in line with Officer uniforms.

      I'm sure that the reason that the Embroidered CAP, and the cutouts are worn to help distinguish CAP NCO's from active NCO's. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MacGruff on November 07, 2013, 02:02:28 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 06, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
      I'm sure that the reason that the Embroidered CAP, and the cutouts are worn to help distinguish CAP NCO's from active NCO's.

      Pennsylvania Wing issued a Powerpoint presentation of the Civil Air Patrol NCO Program which seems to point at where it's going. I am not sure if it's been put out on their website, or elsewhere.

      The NCO stripes have the CAP in the center and the propeller below it. Here is a picture that I copied from the presentation. I am sure you'll recognize that it is quite different than the Active Duty stripes...     8)


      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 02:08:04 AM
      Quote from: MacGruff on November 07, 2013, 02:02:28 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 06, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
      I'm sure that the reason that the Embroidered CAP, and the cutouts are worn to help distinguish CAP NCO's from active NCO's.

      Pennsylvania Wing issued a Powerpoint presentation of the Civil Air Patrol NCO Program which seems to point at where it's going. I am not sure if it's been put out on their website, or elsewhere.

      The NCO stripes have the CAP in the center and the propeller below it. Here is a picture that I copied from the presentation. I am sure you'll recognize that it is quite different than the Active Duty stripes...     8)

      The SSGT and TSGT are...hideous

      Can you post the PowerPoint?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MacGruff on November 07, 2013, 02:25:32 AM
      I do not see any disclaimers that do not allow me to post this, so here goes...





      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 02:27:47 AM
      I got a email forwarded to my by my Wing Commander (I'm a Squadron CC) that has a lot of details about the NCO program, but I'm not sure of how much- if any- is supposed to be released yet; so please don't ask me to post it.

      Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 02:08:04 AM

      The SSGT and TSGT are...hideous


      Agreed
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 07, 2013, 02:28:27 AM
      hideous....
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 02:32:10 AM
      The powerpoint showed most of what was in my briefing packet.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 02:32:12 AM
      SNCOs look...OK...ish.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 02:37:20 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 02:32:12 AM
      SNCOs look...OK...ish.

      They look a lot better than the SSgt and TSgt.

      They certainly are . . .distinctive. . .
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on November 07, 2013, 02:42:01 AM
      How about the prop is red and the CAP in white over it?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 02:51:11 AM
      (http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2381/2p1l.jpg)

      (http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7622/lfu2.jpg)

      (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3017/0a9f.jpg)

      (http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7603/ktib.jpg)

      (http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9418/6v4t.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:08:57 AM
      WOW!  Good luck with that
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/test.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/test.jpg.html)

      Quite honestly...it would look better in any other way, without the blue over the 4/5 stripes...

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/One.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/One.jpg.html)

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/two.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/two.jpg.html)

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/three.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/three.jpg.html)
      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/four.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/four.jpg.html)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 07, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
      By Looking at the powerpoint slides it looks like it's easier to get promoted to Lieutenant Colonel than Chief Master Sergeant.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:26:48 AM
      I don't think it looks that bad, though you have to wonder why the CAP is necessary if the prop replaces the star.

      The vast majority of NCOs would fall into those first to patches, so get used to them.

      Assuming those insignia are the final versions, they probably dropped the red prop for cost.  As shown here it's a single color thread.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 03:31:23 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:26:48 AM
      I don't think it looks that bad, though you have to wonder why the CAP is necessary if the prop replaces the star.

      Eventually non-prior service members will be CAP NCOs so there is a legitimate need to have distinctive stripes.  I actually prefer the 1st line of stripes that USAFAux put out.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:34:57 AM
      You're thinking we'd have two classes of NCOs? Military and CAP with different insignia?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
      So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 03:40:03 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
      So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

      Ain't the Nat.Guard like that?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 03:41:45 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:34:57 AM
      You're thinking we'd have two classes of NCOs? Military and CAP with different insignia?
      No, all NCOs in CAP will wear the same stripes, regardless of whether they were prior service or not.

      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
      So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

      Unfortunately, that is the case.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:53:14 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 03:41:45 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
      So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

      Unfortunately, that is the case.

      Manning tables without an "up or out" culture will degrade back to the circular mess we have on the officer side somewhere between 5-10 years.

      The only way they work long-term is if the higher grades are temporary or you restrict people from returning to a unit after serving higher.

      They also don't account for member who walk in the door as Chiefs but have no interest in anything above a unit.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Al Sayre on November 07, 2013, 03:55:38 AM
      What do you do with all the retired E-7,8,9's that swap over?  It seems that you'd probably be over the available billets right off the bat if everyone decided to switch for some reason.  At one point, in my squadron alone I had an E-2, an E-3 and 2 E-4's all National Guard members, plus 3 E-6's (one National Guard, 2 retired), 1 E-7 and 2 E-8's all retired.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 04:05:42 AM
      Hmmm... So if Im a SMSgt in CAWG, relocate to FL and join a Squadron/Group that already has one, I get demoted back to TSgt?    Unlike the military, CAP members are free to move around at will.   Could they actually deny my membership based on no billets available?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 04:06:54 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 07, 2013, 03:55:38 AM
      What do you do with all the retired E-7,8,9's that swap over?  It seems that you'd probably be over the available billets right off the bat if everyone decided to switch for some reason.  At one point, in my squadron alone I had an E-2, an E-3 and 2 E-4's all National Guard members, plus 3 E-6's (one National Guard, 2 retired), 1 E-7 and 2 E-8's all retired.

      In my unit, today (plus the one I signed Monday night)  have an E-9, E-7, and an E-5.  I would have to force one to E-6.  The e-5 is currently a CAP 1st LT, who by the time that we go forward with this will have his SLS, and Level 2, which would make him eligible for TSgt.

      I wonder what they have in mind for those Officers that want to go to the NCO route?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 04:09:42 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 04:05:42 AM
      Hmmm... So if Im a SMSgt in CAWG, relocate to FL and join a Squadron/Group that already has one, I get demoted back to TSgt?    Unlike the military, CAP members are free to move around at will.   Could they actually deny my membership based on no billets available?

      I think thats why they did away with the Officer billets back in the day.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 04:41:50 AM
      So, its exactly as big a joke as I feared. 

      Nothing other than having NCOs follow THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM THAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE AS CAP OFFICERS!

      Its confirmed then -- this is nothing but an ego project. 

      The fact that this is the only real distinction in the program
      QuoteTo train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management
      and
      QuoteTo provide CAP commanders with access to the professional military skills, training and experience of former NCOs
      makes it even more laughable since they say they're going to allow non-prior service in.

      So, just how is a non-prior service NCO going to accomplish those tasks?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 07, 2013, 05:20:26 AM
      ..and if there's a limit of how many per region/wing/group, then it's going to be a race to the top and suffice to say that the GoB networks will probably fill the slots the day it's official.

      Why do we need this?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 07, 2013, 05:26:56 AM
      I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.

      Looking at the powerpoint, I still can't see a "need" or legit purpose for the NCO corps in CAP.  As the way CAP is currently organized, I don't see why somebody who holds an officer grade can't perform the tasks listed, and why putting stripes on them all of the sudden makes them better at that function.

      (/shrugs)

      I just don't quite grok why we need two PD tracks which, for all intents and purposes, are identical in their achievement milestones but have different titles / wear different insignia.

      That being said, I really don't see a reason to trade in my bars for stripes.  Personally, I don't feel it would effect my performance in any way.

      QuoteRedefined the standards for entry into the CAP Officer program

      Now this sounds interesting.  I wonder what they have in mind here.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 05:33:09 AM
      Well, the allowable table killed any hope of this being a step forward. If this is offical, my local unit will lose people over this. The unit has a retired army e8, an AF e7 and a retired army e9. So, which one does the commander get to demote?

      Shame...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 05:56:56 AM
      If I read it right, that's a maning table AT promotion. If they are there already, so be it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 07, 2013, 06:44:02 AM
      1) Assuming that this is available to incoming Seniors without prior service, it would appear tv hat CAP could end up with something that was such an embarrassment in the '70's that it aided in the demise of "off the street" NCOs back then - namely, MSgts who are not old enough to buy a beer.

      2) If they made the prop red, inside a white triangle, which goes inside the blue circle, that would be a double-whammy - a nod to CAP heritage and it would be PLENTY distinctive from USAF, making the "CAP" lettering unnecessary.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 06:52:54 AM
      Lots of pages...may have missed it.

      Any indication on what the plan is for our existing members?  With "redefined standards for entry into the Officer corps" it sounds like the requirements for new members becoming officers would be more stringent (read college degrees and appropriate positions), but what are we thinking the folks who have already been Lt Cols for 20 years will go? 

      If there is a forced transition to the new NCO program, I wonder how many folks would file their retirement paperwork. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 08:35:03 AM
      I think some here are seeing boogiemen behind this NCO idea.

      I very highly doubt a "forced transition program" will take place, the logistics and cost to members alone would end a large portion of the "Tuesday night volunteers" and CAP can't afford a mass walk off (especially in the lower member populated wings).

      I also highly doubt a "degree requirement" will be implemented. Again, I believe it would drive off way to many very capable "Tuesday night volunteers" to be even remotely viable in this organization.

      Maybe it is time for someone who is in a high control position within this organization to come on here and help dispel some "end of the world" theories.. Cough cough Ned cough cough...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:02:25 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 06, 2013, 09:21:45 PM
      Would that be you pretty ladies talking troops into paying for overpriced, watered down drinks for a chance to talk with them. Mostly drunks sitting at me bar. Anything else isn't really in the job description. But the name does sound like its describing something dirty and no family oriented.

      I been to Korea and I was Military Police and I can tell you how stupid and ignorant american boys (small 'a' on purpose) can be. No reason to go there, saavy?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:06:23 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 07, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
      By Looking at the powerpoint slides it looks like it's easier to get promoted to Lieutenant Colonel than Chief Master Sergeant.

      Wow. It must have been done by the "camel design committee".  ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:12:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 03:53:14 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 03:41:45 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
      So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

      Unfortunately, that is the case.

      Manning tables without an "up or out" culture will degrade back to the circular mess we have on the officer side somewhere between 5-10 years.

      The only way they work long-term is if the higher grades are temporary or you restrict people from returning to a unit after serving higher.

      They also don't account for member who walk in the door as Chiefs but have no interest in anything above a unit.

      I knew of a Squadron that two retired USAF CMSgts and they both wore their stripes. One was more admin and the other was the ops guy. It was functional, but the ppt appears to be a Chinese Fire Drill.   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:15:48 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 05:33:09 AM
      Well, the allowable table killed any hope of this being a step forward. If this is offical, my local unit will lose people over this. The unit has a retired army e8, an AF e7 and a retired army e9. So, which one does the commander get to demote?

      Shame...

      A Squadron currently has multiple Lt Cols but it can not have multiple Staff NCOs?  ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 07, 2013, 09:27:05 AM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:15:48 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 05:33:09 AM
      Well, the allowable table killed any hope of this being a step forward. If this is offical, my local unit will lose people over this. The unit has a retired army e8, an AF e7 and a retired army e9. So, which one does the commander get to demote?

      Shame...

      A Squadron currently has multiple Lt Cols but it can not have multiple Staff NCOs?  ::)

      We'll be reading blog posts from the National CC, CMSgt Carr...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ZigZag911 on November 07, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
      "CAP" in the stripes looks ridiculous...there ought to be some other way to differentiate from AF NCOs, assuming the prop replacing star isn't enough.

      I like the limitations on numbers of Seniors & Chief MSgts, but question 'one MSgt per squadron"...that ought to be more tied to professional development training level as well as staff role...alternatively, perhaps higher HQ staffs could have multiple MSgts.

      My big question is why NCOs are following the exact same PD program as officers. Some overlap, perhaps through Level II, is inevitable, but I would think that Level III and beyond would be where things branch off.

      I'm still not completely convinced we need this.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 04:27:50 PM
      Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 07, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
      "CAP" in the stripes looks ridiculous...there ought to be some other way to differentiate from AF NCOs, assuming the prop replacing star isn't enough.

      Maybe they should be gray to match the officer's epaulet slides (which also have "CAP" above the grade insignia). >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 04:36:37 PM
      Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 07, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
      My big question is why NCOs are following the exact same PD program as officers. Some overlap, perhaps through Level II, is inevitable, but I would think that Level III and beyond would be where things branch off.

      Branch off where?

      There's only one PD track because we have only one PD path.

      CAP has a specific set of missions, and ground-level training of adult members in basic life and military skills like enlisted personnel isn't on that list.
      We expect adult members to come to the table already mostly baked and to get moving on the "real" work of the tri-prop mission.  We also expect
      adult members to handle their own care and feeding.

      It's interesting to note that beyond the same type of rhetoric you see in the CAC pamphlet, there is no mention of what these NCOs would actually do that would be
      any different then everyone else.


      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 04:54:31 PM
      "Sergeant, the other officers and I will be at the after party at McDonalds.  I'm sure you understand.  if you could square things away here and close up I would appreciate it".    >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
      ........oh,  I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you when you said "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living?"
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 07, 2013, 05:37:34 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 07, 2013, 09:15:48 AM


      A Squadron currently has multiple Lt Cols but it can not have multiple Staff NCOs?  ::)

      This was pretty much my thought when I read that.  If they are going to limit one I would like to hope that they will also limit the other.

      Ideally I would think that 3 or 4 masters per unit would be acceptable for most units; 1 for ops, 1 for admin, 1 as First Sgt,  1 additional for composite units specific to cadet programs (leadership) or otherwise a matrix of allowable senior NCO's based on number of unit members.   Of course the same would hold true for officer side then, unlimited LT's and Captains but restrictions on the number of Maj's and up.

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 07, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
      ........oh,  I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you when you said "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living?"


      Bwahaha
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Al Sayre on November 07, 2013, 05:49:10 PM
      How about a point based promotion system based on evaluations, time in grade, time in service, awards and a written test in their area of technical expertise?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 05:59:10 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.

      I see this happening a lot if the system as posted goes in.  TSgt's going to Group HQ to get their 6th stripe, then right back down after a "successful" tour of 3-6 months.  Even though they are at Group, they still would go to their local meetings, etc.  Just "off the books".

      Bleh.  The NCO idea had such possibilities.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Tim Medeiros on November 07, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 05:59:10 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.

      I see this happening a lot if the system as posted goes in.  TSgt's going to Group HQ to get their 6th stripe, then right back down after a "successful" tour of 3-6 months.  Even though they are at Group, they still would go to their local meetings, etc.  Just "off the books".

      Bleh.  The NCO idea had such possibilities.
      My interpretation of the "minimum tenure" column says that timeline would be prevented.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
      Quote from: Tim Medeiros on November 07, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 05:59:10 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.

      I see this happening a lot if the system as posted goes in.  TSgt's going to Group HQ to get their 6th stripe, then right back down after a "successful" tour of 3-6 months.  Even though they are at Group, they still would go to their local meetings, etc.  Just "off the books".

      Bleh.  The NCO idea had such possibilities.
      My interpretation of the "minimum tenure" column says that timeline would be prevented.

      I think they mean TIG.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 06:24:29 PM
      Quote from: Tim Medeiros on November 07, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 05:59:10 PM
      Bleh.  The NCO idea had such possibilities.
      My interpretation of the "minimum tenure" column says that timeline would be prevented.

      Depends on if tenure is exclusive and is tied to assignment in eServices.  What is the definition is tenure here?  I know people who are double booked in squadron & group.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 06:29:13 PM
      And since PD is the same...they basically are capping most at "1st Lt", making Captain level grade almost impossible for most.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 06:35:15 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 06:29:13 PM
      And since PD is the same...they basically are capping most at "1st Lt", making Captain level grade almost impossible for most.

      from what I saw, it looked like Captain is equivalent to TSgt, as a Level 2 PD progression. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Ned on November 07, 2013, 06:48:39 PM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 08:35:03 AM
      Maybe it is time for someone who is in a high control position within this organization to come on here and help dispel some "end of the world" theories.. Cough cough Ned cough cough...

      Colleagues,

      I haven't said anything up to this point because, like you, I have not been briefed on the program.  I believe that significantly inhibits my ability to contribute to this conversation.  Obviously, most of the contributors to this thread feel differently and are comfortable dealing with guesswork and speculation. 

      I may be old fashioned, but it would perhaps save us some collective angst and consternation if we could wait and actually look at the AF-approved program before commenting and offering suggestions / alternatives.  I may not know the specifics of the program, but I do know it was studied carefully and approved at the Air Staff level.  I have great respect and trust for our AF colleagues.  I would also counsel thread participants to carefully consider our Core Value of Respect when commenting.

      I expect that there will be implementing regulations, and that the drafts of those regulations will be posted for the normal comment period.  Once we know the specifics, we will all be in a much better position to comment.

      Ned Lee
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 07, 2013, 07:04:39 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)















      Those look great!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 07:06:39 PM
      Ned you were right about the first 20 pages of the thread and I tried (and failed) to limit my participation.  But, I think the powerpoint is clear enough for us to understand what is being done and the reviews don't look good so far. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Tim Medeiros on November 07, 2013, 07:28:41 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
      Quote from: Tim Medeiros on November 07, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 07, 2013, 05:59:10 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.

      I see this happening a lot if the system as posted goes in.  TSgt's going to Group HQ to get their 6th stripe, then right back down after a "successful" tour of 3-6 months.  Even though they are at Group, they still would go to their local meetings, etc.  Just "off the books".

      Bleh.  The NCO idea had such possibilities.
      My interpretation of the "minimum tenure" column says that timeline would be prevented.

      I think they mean TIG.
      Then why have TIG listed in the slide posted before it?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AlphaSigOU on November 07, 2013, 08:15:05 PM
      And where is the link to this PowerPoint? (I may have overlooked it in the flood of messages in this thread...)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
      Maybe it's just me, but it seems like this is coming out a bit backwards.

      With something like this that could have dramatic implications on our entire organization, there sure is a lot of silence.  Large policy matters usually have some sort of "this is what we are trying to pass" announcement that precedes their approval.

      "This is what we're proposing in regards to texting and driving laws."

      "This is what is being sent to Congress for Healthcare reform."

      "The company is planning to implement the following changes to our HR systems, we'll let you know when the changes are official."

      In our case, we have "The Air Staff has approved that we have a new NCO program." 

      The entire membership goes, "WHAT!? Where did this come from?"  Then they start searching for details, of which...there are none.  No draft regulations, no white paper on the background thoughts behind the change, nothing but a few powerpoint slides that, like most powerpoint slides, have no real detail as to what the heck is going on.

      If it's so awesome, and going to be such great thing, can we at least get a background paper or something - surely there was one when the justification was being drawn up and sent to the Air Staff, no?

      I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but without at least a modicum of detail on what the heck the plan is, all we are doing is setting the program up for failure because everyone is going to speculate as to what the program is going to be, what it isn't going to be, what its goals are, and it is going to have a sour taste in peoples' mouths before it even has a draft regulation to work from.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
      Quote from: MacGruff on November 07, 2013, 02:25:32 AM
      I do not see any disclaimers that do not allow me to post this, so here goes...

      This is the post with the powerpoint. 

      QuoteWith something like this that could have dramatic implications on our entire organization, there sure is a lot of silence. 

      C'mon now.  I don't like what is being proposed, but the development of an NCO "program" has been on the national agenda for years (3-5?) now.  We've extensively discussed it here many times since.  Now, the details of what is being proposed are brand new to everyone, but that was always going to be the case when they finally decided on what they wanted to propose. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 09:30:46 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
      C'mon now.  I don't like what is being proposed, but the development of an NCO "program" has been on the national agenda for years (3-5?) now.  We've extensively discussed it here many times since.  Now, the details of what is being proposed are brand new to everyone, but that was always going to be the case when they finally decided on what they wanted to propose.

      There is a big difference between having something on the agenda and what comes out in the details.  My point is that if this has been on the agenda for years, and a proposal has been sent to and approved by the Air Staff, there has to be some sort of "detail" outlining its purpose, mission, problem its solving, etc.  I'm not talking about how someone gets promoted, I'm talking the strategic perspective of why CAP needs to have an NCO corps: the argument presented to the Air Staff for approval.

      I could care less what the stripes look like.  From a command perspective, if you want buy-in from commanders and want them to tout the party line and give the program the support it needs, there has to be the sales pitch.  Where is it?  I sat in on a briefing at NSC where the idea was pitched, and the same wishy-washy presentation was given that we see today.  Words like "Respect" and "Honor" were thrown around, but no -meat- was given, even from the guy with the idea in the first place.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 09:40:35 PM
      Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
      In our case, we have "The Air Staff has approved that we have a new NCO program." 

      The entire membership goes, "WHAT!? Where did this come from?"  Then they start searching for details, of which...there are none.  No draft regulations, no white paper on the background thoughts behind the change, nothing but a few powerpoint slides that, like most powerpoint slides, have no real detail as to what the heck is going on.

      If it's so awesome, and going to be such great thing, can we at least get a background paper or something - surely there was one when the justification was being drawn up and sent to the Air Staff, no?

      I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but without at least a modicum of detail on what the heck the plan is, all we are doing is setting the program up for failure because everyone is going to speculate as to what the program is going to be, what it isn't going to be, what its goals are, and it is going to have a sour taste in peoples' mouths before it even has a draft regulation to work from.

      I have a fairly detailed document that talks about what is going on, and I'm checking to see if i can release it.  I will let you know if I can or cannot.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 10:11:21 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 09:40:35 PM


      I have a fairly detailed document that talks about what is going on, and I'm checking to see if i can release it.  I will let you know if I can or cannot.

      No offense at all, but why would the document in question be super squirrel secret if a random squadron CC in Wyoming has it?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 10:15:47 PM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2013, 10:11:21 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 09:40:35 PM


      I have a fairly detailed document that talks about what is going on, and I'm checking to see if i can release it.  I will let you know if I can or cannot.

      No offense at all, but why would the document in question be super squirrel secret if a random squadron CC in Wyoming has it?

      Well, I do happen to be a Commander of a squadron that a vast majority of the Senior Members are AD Military, and about half of those are NCOs. ;)

      Not to mention that all of the CC's in Wyoming have it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Ned on November 07, 2013, 10:23:28 PM
      Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
      Maybe it's just me, but it seems like this is coming out a bit backwards.

      No, I think it is pretty much just you.   ;)

      QuoteWith something like this that could have dramatic implications on our entire organization, there sure is a lot of silence. 

      I'm not sure why you think that a modification to our existing NCO program would have "drastic implications on our entire organization."  As others have pointed out, we have had NCOs since WWII.  Our program has been modified significantly several times in the last 70 years or so without any appreciable overall effect on CAP.  There is certainly nothing to suggest that the latest approved changes will have any more or less effect than the previous changes.

      QuoteI'm not trying to be a naysayer, but without at least a modicum of detail on what the heck the plan is, all we are doing is setting the program up for failure because everyone is going to speculate as to what the program is going to be, what it isn't going to be, what its goals are, and it is going to have a sour taste in peoples' mouths before it even has a draft regulation to work from.

      Really?  Not trying to be a naysayer? 

      I suppose anyone is free to speculate about what the next 10 changes in CAP regulations are going to be.  Perhaps that is human nature.

      But I am disappointed that any CAP officer would not approach a change in an existing program that has been approved not only by our senior leadership but the Air Staff as well with an attitude like "I don't know any of the details now, but when the draft regulations are posted for comment, I will offer my best advice.  And when the implementing regulations are issued, I will support them and do my best to implement them."

      Seriously, isn't that the duty of every CAP officer?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2013, 10:27:49 PM
      Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2013, 10:23:28 PMI'm not sure why you think that a modification to our existing NCO program would have "drastic implications on our entire organization."

      And that pretty much sums up the issue.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 07, 2013, 10:28:10 PM
      This is the same type of stuff we went through when we discussed this before, along with the Iowa Wing plan to change everything we ever did..  Along with the Pineda fiasco.  If I recall correctly, Chief was behind this before and it does seem to be very personality driven.  If I remember correctly, this would affect as few as 40 or so current NCOs??  Having been in CAP for over 35 years I can't personally name two NCOs that I have seen in CAP that wanted to remain NCOs.  They all seem happy to receive their officership.  This seems to be an answer to a problem that isn't there.  If I remember some of the good things about NCOs it was that they did the job without causing friction.  I doubt that a good NCO would come to join and then say, well if I can't wear my stripes (and continue to get promoted) then I will just take my ball and bat and go home.  That would sound much more like a new Lieutenant than a seasoned NCO.  Considering the financial problems we are having I just don't see a need for this program.  But then again, I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. 

      Oh, Ned, where would we be if everyone would have supported Pineda based on your philosophy.  You should know that just because a law is passed, it may not be a good law and someone needs to speak up against it and work to get it changed.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:30:44 PM
      Ned, you know as well as anyone that by the time a draft regulation is being reviewed by the membership that it is a done deal that it is going to happen.  The ONLY way CAP membership has to impact something before it is decided by the leadership is to voice strenuous opposition to it on CAPTalk.

      We barely have the opportunity to fix silly mistakes in draft regulations since comments are generally stovepiped in the chain of command.  A comment saying, "this change is a bad idea" is not going anywhere. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 07, 2013, 10:31:22 PM
      "No offense at all, but why would the document in question be super squirrel secret if a random squadron CC in Wyoming has it?"

      "Not to mention that all of the CC's in Wyoming have it."

      So, instead of the old IOWA plan it is now going to be the WYOMING PLAN... 

      Geeesh, what is it with the midwest??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:32:06 PM
      QuoteIf I remember correctly, this would affect as few as 40 or so current NCOs??
      Think I saw something that it was about 100 not that long ago.  So, yes, there are effectively no NCOs in CAP right now.  However, the potential market is probably quite large, but assumes that many former NCOs now serving as officers are going to demote themselves now that they have the ability to promote as a NCO -- a dubious assumption at best. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 10:33:17 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:30:44 PM
      A comment saying, "this change is a bad idea" is not going anywhere.
      As it should be, if that's all the comment is.  If you have a detailed explanation of why it is a bad change, and how to fix whatever issue it was trying to solve . . .usually gets a better reception.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:34:21 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 10:33:17 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:30:44 PM
      A comment saying, "this change is a bad idea" is not going anywhere.
      As it should be, if that's all the comment is.  If you have a detailed explanation of why it is a bad change, and how to fix whatever issue it was trying to solve . . .usually gets a better reception.

      Well, I was summarizing, but my experience does not provide any evidence that a well-thought objection to a proposal or even current program ever gets beyond Wing Commander. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 07, 2013, 10:35:56 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 07, 2013, 10:31:22 PM
      "No offense at all, but why would the document in question be super squirrel secret if a random squadron CC in Wyoming has it?"

      "Not to mention that all of the CC's in Wyoming have it."

      So, instead of the old IOWA plan it is now going to be the WYOMING PLAN... 

      Geeesh, what is it with the midwest??

      No, it is not the Wyoming plan.   ::)

      There was traffic from Utah and Idaho.  So, I'm stepping out on a limb, and speculate its going around certain circles all across the nation.  The powerpoint from PA is an example of this.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 11:04:26 PM
      At first, I saw some merit with having an NCO program; mostly because I feel we have too many officers in CAP. After all, in most organizations (military and otherwise) only those holding a position of authority or responsibility are appointed or considered "officers". Since most CAP senior members are "workers/doers", it doesn't make much sense that almost everyone is an officer. I also think it's too easy to become an officer in CAP and not that much harder to get promoted. And even after getting the promotion, there's practically no expectation for members to perform in the level of their grade. For these reasons, having an active CAP enlisted membership seemed appealing.

      Throughout this discussion, and without having much information about the proposed NCO program, I became more indifferent as it didn't seem to address my concerns expressed above, but it also didn't seem to change anything dramatically other than providing (for now) a way for current or future NCOs to get promoted. The problem is, in my opinion, that that's not enough to invest needed resources to develop a program that will not really benefit CAP as a whole, other than providing a few members with a way to promote.

      I'm actually starting see some appeal on a warrant officer program, as proposed by others on this board. Everyone would have a warrant officer grade equivalent to their PD level and only those appointed as commanders or key staff officers would be promoted to equivalent officer grades. These officer grades would be temporary and members would revert to their permanent warrant officer grade when no longer in that position. The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. If something like this was adopted, I don't think we would need NCO grades at all. Frankly, even after all these discussions, I'm still trying to figure out what would they do that is different and can't be done by non-NCO members (officer, warrant or other).
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Ned on November 07, 2013, 11:10:11 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 07, 2013, 10:30:44 PM
      Ned, you know as well as anyone that by the time a draft regulation is being reviewed by the membership that it is a done deal that it is going to happen.

      Strong non-concur.  Indeed, your assertion is demonstrably false.  Just look at the current pending revisions of the CPP.  CP posted a draft on line, received considerable feedback about ways it could be improved (both here and on the NHQ website), and revised it to directly address the criticisms posted.  (And reposted it for new comments.)  I'm sure others can provide other examples.

      QuoteThe ONLY way CAP membership has to impact something before it is decided by the leadership is to voice strenuous opposition to it on CAPTalk.

      I'm not sure how to respond to this.  It is problematic for several reasons.  Initially, I need to point out that many "somethings" actually originate with the CAP membership, and are successfully passed up through the chain of command or via something like the CAC.  Second, it is difficult to offer effective "strenuous opposition" to any program or policy that you know relatively little about.  Third, unofficial forums like CAPTalk do not reach significant numbers of the senior leadership, so "strenuous opposition" made in a place where it is unlikely to be seen and evaluated by our senior leaders does not seem a productive or efficient way to impact policy.

      But mostly, my point is that all CAP officers have the duty to publicly support approved policies, and that includes policies with which they may personally disagree.  Really.  I expect that each of us would agree that it would be improper to stand up in front of the closing formation and say things like "NHQ has announced a new regulation / policy concerning X, but I think it is ridiculous, 'dead on arrival,' and sticks in my craw because we haven't yet solved Problem Y."

      Yet those exact words have been used by the usual naysayers in this very thread.

      I think that is a problem.

      Please note that all officers have a duty of loyalty to the organization as a whole, and that includes providing honest feedback in approved manners, taking action when regulations are violated or Core Values are not enforced.  And to whistleblowers are aggressively protected when they point out fraud, waste, or abuse.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 07, 2013, 11:17:10 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 06, 2013, 09:21:45 PM
      Would that be you pretty ladies talking troops into paying for overpriced, watered down drinks for a chance to talk with them. Mostly drunks sitting at me bar. Anything else isn't really in the job description. But the name does sound like its describing something dirty and no family oriented.

      Thanks Top... was gonna trip off but you were much nicer.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 07, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
      Quote from: MacGruff on November 07, 2013, 02:02:28 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 06, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
      I'm sure that the reason that the Embroidered CAP, and the cutouts are worn to help distinguish CAP NCO's from active NCO's.

      Pennsylvania Wing issued a Powerpoint presentation of the Civil Air Patrol NCO Program which seems to point at where it's going. I am not sure if it's been put out on their website, or elsewhere.

      The NCO stripes have the CAP in the center and the propeller below it. Here is a picture that I copied from the presentation. I am sure you'll recognize that it is quite different than the Active Duty stripes...     8)

      I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is?  ???
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 11:34:24 PM
      Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2013, 10:23:28 PM
      No, I think it is pretty much just you.   ;)

      I thought so...

      Quote from: Ned
      I'm not sure why you think that a modification to our existing NCO program would have "drastic implications on our entire organization."  As others have pointed out, we have had NCOs since WWII.  Our program has been modified significantly several times in the last 70 years or so without any appreciable overall effect on CAP.  There is certainly nothing to suggest that the latest approved changes will have any more or less effect than the previous changes.

      Ned, in all seriousness, anyone who says that "we've had NCOs since WWII" is reaching a bit.  While, yes, it is the truth that there are people walking around with stripes on their sleeves now, stop giving the implication that our NCO program has been some sort of vibrant program for the last 70 years.  Right now we have fewer than 100 in our 60k+ membership.  In 15 years, I've run into 3.  So, yes, "we have NCOs and an NCO program" now is true, the reality is that it's a courtesy to a few members and really has no impact on the organization at all.

      Redefining our NCO program to allow for promotions, creating more stringent requirements for CAP officers, staffing tables, etc., is more than a simple modification and (of course speculating since there aren't any details out) has real implications in execution at the local level where the administrative burden of getting up to speed, learning new requirements for promotion, integrating this new membership classification, etc., has to take place.  That is a -real- change.  If there isn't going to be any substantial effect on our program, then what is the point?  Which gets us back to where the thread started...

      Quote from: NedReally?  Not trying to be a naysayer? 

      I suppose anyone is free to speculate about what the next 10 changes in CAP regulations are going to be.  Perhaps that is human nature.

      But I am disappointed that any CAP officer would not approach a change in an existing program that has been approved not only by our senior leadership but the Air Staff as well with an attitude like "I don't know any of the details now, but when the draft regulations are posted for comment, I will offer my best advice.  And when the implementing regulations are issued, I will support them and do my best to implement them."

      Seriously, isn't that the duty of every CAP officer?

      There is a difference between what we stand in front of our troops and say and what is said in other venues, after all, how would progress and program changes happen if the current standards and regulations weren't questioned from time to time.  That is all that is being done here.  We want to be sold on this program, Ned, really.  Two years ago, it was pitched to me at NSC.  The crowd (which should be comprised of CAP's most experienced leaders, no?) at the time asked the same questions as here, and the brainchildren of the idea couldn't answer a single one directly, simply throwing out words like "respect" as the reasoning to do it. 

      If after two years (maybe more) of publicly campaigning for, and getting approval from the Air Staff, we still can't put a finger on the "what is the objective" without the answer being "so we can have an NCO program" I think that is a problem. 

      Just like our safety program, which is criticized for not being based on empirical data, and shooting from the hip in the way we address things, as well as the administrative burden placed on our members, a program needs the support of the commanders that are required to implement it. 

      We gnash our teeth here, but in the field we keep out disgruntled viewpoints to ourselves and wave the "The CAP NCO program is going to be awesome" flag at our units.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 08, 2013, 12:17:29 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 11:04:26 PM.. mostly because I feel we have too many officers in CAP..
      What an interesting observation. ;) Considering that is our current ranking system, should we take that as "we have too many (Senior) members? ..and if we have too many, do we just shut down recruiting for a while?

      Since we seem to add about as many as we lose each year, if we shut down recruiting for 6 months that will be quite a purge. Still too many? Carry the lockout further.

      We really don't have any other ranking system at the moment, so it's kind of hard to put a number on how many is too many.

      If one interprets the limits mentioned in these slideshows, and goes so far as to interpret that they're going to eventually apply to the Officer ranks, you won't have to worry about having too many after a while.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Ned on November 08, 2013, 12:24:37 AM
      Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 07, 2013, 11:34:24 PM

      [. . .] So, yes, "we have NCOs and an NCO program" now is true, the reality is that it's a courtesy to a few members and really has no impact on the organization at all.

      I can only agree that the current state of the NCO program does not include a whole lot of people.  (But of course, each of our current NCO's is a valued member performing crucial volunteer service.)

      But over the decades that particular pendulum has swung back and forth several times.  My point is that each time we have revised the program, we have done so in an effort to improve CAP and make us more effective.  But so far, revising the NCO program has not correlated well with any significant reduction in our capabilities or size of the membership.  It is mostly "business as usual."

      QuoteRedefining our NCO program to allow for promotions, creating more stringent requirements for CAP officers, staffing tables, etc., is more than a simple modification


      Whoa, there Partner.  Where did the part about altering CAP officer requirements come from?

      I didn't see anything about that in the press release or the PowerPoint referenced earlier in this thread.  Did I miss it?

      But concerning modification to our NCO program, I guess reasonable minds can differ as to whether allowing for promotions and defining educational requirements is more than a "simple modification."  But we have had such requirments before, and then we didn't.  And it looks like we will again.

      It just doesn't seem like a huge sea change to me.  Important, yes, but not huge.



      QuoteJust like our safety program, which is criticized for not being based on empirical data, and shooting from the hip in the way we address things, as well as the administrative burden placed on our members, a program needs the support of the commanders that are required to implement it. 

      We gnash our teeth here, but in the field we keep out disgruntled viewpoints to ourselves and wave the "The CAP NCO program is going to be awesome" flag at our units.

      Do you honestly think that comments posted here on CAPTalk are "non-public"? 

      I'm no IT expert, but comments posted here on the internet seem far more public and lasting than anything said in front of closing formation.  Such comments reach far more people than happen to be standing in your unit parking lot, and will last for years after we have all died.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jimmydeanno on November 08, 2013, 12:36:20 AM
      Quote from: Ned on November 08, 2013, 12:24:37 AM
      Whoa, there Partner.  Where did the part about altering CAP officer requirements come from?

      http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg328472#msg328472 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg328472#msg328472)

      QuotePhase II Professional Military Education:

      "Redefined the standards for entry into the CAP Officer Program"

      I may be reading that wrong, but that sounds like, "Now that we have an NCO program, we're going to change how to be an officer," to me.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 01:17:49 AM
      I found out that what I had received, is not restricted; so here it is.

      edit to correct minor grammar issue.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 01:31:34 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 01:17:49 AM
      I found out that I had received is not restricted, so here it is.

      Thanks for posting it - it's nice to finally see something on letterhead, but the details are essentially the same as the PPT and other documents we've seen.

      It continues to make assertions which are likely "optimistic" (to be benevolent), and contains a few factual errors.
      For example, the 10 or so NCOs and SMWOGs who are current unit CCs may be surprised to learn that the USAF thinks this is reserved for officers.
      Trivial?  Maybe.  But when you're drafting a document that references AFIs for your parent company, there should be no ambiguities or factual issues.

      There is also a fair amount of misunderstanding as to how CAP actually works in regards to a bunch of supervisor and technical roles which
      do not exist, and some idea that this will magically fill them.

      I would certainly be interested in see the statistical data from the service surveys NHQ has done that indicate
      the number of NCOs who have turned down CAP membership because they can't wear their stripes and still be promoted within CAP.

      And in all this, there isn't a single place where there is a list of bullet points as to what, exactly, stripes can do vs. metal.  None.
      As jimmydeano has said a couple of times, there's lots of CAC-pamphlet rhetoric, and little beyond that.

      If this document contained detailed assertions about CAP's need to develop the small-squad ethic and mentality, and
      the ways that it will implement that idea, with a page or two at the end about the potential role NCOs could have in there,
      it would be much better received, I think, then a lot of work towards equalizing the stripes with no real reason as to why
      to have them to start with.

      My experience has been that projects which concentrate on t-shirts and hats in the elevator pitches don't' generally succeed.

      Pitch 1: "Our NCOs should be able to promote internally if they do CAP PD." Fine.  I seriously doubt anyone would care.

      Pitch 2:  "Our polling data indicates that military NCOs won't join unless they can promote internally".  Again, cool and clear.

      Pitch 3: "We feel we should have this."   "Why?"
      .....
      ((*bing*)) third floor.

      The consistent thread we are seeing is that this is someone's idea idea of "something we should have".

      I'll put the steak dinner I still have on hold in regards to ABUs on a double-or nothing line that this gets implemented to the point
      that military NCOs can get promoted based on PD level within CAP, regardless of military achievements, and the rest of the plans
      will be so divisive and difficult to implement that phase two will be back-burnered indefinitely.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 01:43:43 AM
      The thing that caught my eye, is that Flights can be Commanded by SNCOs provided that there are no Officers assigned to that unit, but in the Manning table, no SMSgt or CMSgt are authorized, so a big contradiction there.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 02:00:44 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/test.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/test.jpg.html)

      Quite honestly...it would look better in any other way, without the blue over the 4/5 stripes...

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/One.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/One.jpg.html)

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/two.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/two.jpg.html)

      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/three.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/three.jpg.html)
      (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/four.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/USAFAUX2004/media/four.jpg.html)

      Can you do one up without the "CAP" at all but with the propeller's in red where the stars are in USAF rank are?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 02:08:12 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 05:26:56 AM
      I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.

      Looking at the powerpoint, I still can't see a "need" or legit purpose for the NCO corps in CAP.  As the way CAP is currently organized, I don't see why somebody who holds an officer grade can't perform the tasks listed, and why putting stripes on them all of the sudden makes them better at that function.

      (/shrugs)

      I just don't quite grok why we need two PD tracks which, for all intents and purposes, are identical in their achievement milestones but have different titles / wear different insignia.

      That being said, I really don't see a reason to trade in my bars for stripes.  Personally, I don't feel it would effect my performance in any way.

      QuoteRedefined the standards for entry into the CAP Officer program

      Now this sounds interesting.  I wonder what they have in mind here.

      Licensed pilots and/or college degrees only... if I had to make an educated guess.

      With a grandfather clause for current officers that don't meet those requirements.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 02:14:41 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      That's what I was looking for but without the "CAP" completely.

      If CAP NCOs need "CAP" on their uniform, make a disc version for the tunic lapels.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:20:22 AM
      I like those the best so far.  I would take the CAP off the collars, and allow the "circle US" on the service coat.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Patterson on November 08, 2013, 02:32:14 AM
      For those "older" members, I am curious what the feelings were when CAP eliminated the Enlisted Grades from the program, only allowing former military members to wear stripes??

      I envision this to be the initial step toward a complete rework of the grade structure in CAP.

      One thing I don't agree with in the letter is the one line regarding the Officer Grades.  The letter was approved by Air Force on the basis it was in regard to CAP NCOs, but that single sentence addressing CAP Officers could be used as justification to do whatever is deemed correct to the entry and promotion regulations for CAP Officers.

      I feel as though the Air Force "gave" this to CAP in exchange for CAP giving something up, yet I can't figure out what was exchanged.  It obviously is a "bigger picture" piece, can't wait to see the implementation. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:33:29 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

      ???

      Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

      As a matter of fact I have 5 RM NCO's in my unit that could be CAP NCO's.  2 E-5s, 2 E-7s, and 1 E-9.  All but the E-9 is going Officer due to the no promoting clause.  How that is going to change with the new program.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:33:47 AM
      Also note no prior CMSgts. Guess we'll be demoting or promoting or loosing some.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:33:29 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

      ???

      Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

      As a matter of fact I have 5 RM NCO's in my unit that could be CAP NCO's.  2 E-5s, 2 E-7s, and 1 E-9.  All but the E-9 is going Officer due to the no promoting clause.  How that is going to change with the new program.

      Sure, but CAP Reg clearly states E-5 and up. Also, bad news for your Chief...unless he goes to wing or up, he'll be a SMSgt.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 02:35:54 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

      Maybe, maybe not.

      The Army and Marine Corps both have E-5 Sergeants and the Navy and Coast Guard both have 2nd Class Petty Officers... all are NCOs. They could be new joins.

      Question: If a prior Service Army or Marine Corps Corporal and/or a Navy or Coast Guard 3rd Class Petty Officer entered CAP, and wished to remain a NCO, whould they be entered as a CAP SSGT?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:37:23 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 02:35:54 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

      Maybe, maybe not.

      The Army and Marine Corps both have E-5 Sergeants and the Navy and Coast Guard both have 2nd Class Petty Officers... all are NCOs. They could be new joins.

      Question: If a prior Service Army or Marine Corps Corporal and/or a Navy or Coast Guard 3rd Class Petty Officer entered CAP, and wished to remain a NCO, whould they be entered as a CAP SSGT?

      CAP doesn't count E-4 as NCOs, and they don't get a boost. SMWOG or Lt for them.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:37:43 AM
      Quote from: Patterson on November 08, 2013, 02:32:14 AM

      One thing I don't agree with in the letter is the one line regarding the Officer Grades.  The letter was approved by Air Force on the basis it was in regard to CAP NCOs, but that single sentence addressing CAP Officers could be used as justification to do whatever is deemed correct to the entry and promotion regulations for CAP Officers.


      I don't doubt that as a possibility, but you would have to set up where the new members will go before you change the Officer requirements.  That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:39:02 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:37:43 AM
      Quote from: Patterson on November 08, 2013, 02:32:14 AM

      One thing I don't agree with in the letter is the one line regarding the Officer Grades.  The letter was approved by Air Force on the basis it was in regard to CAP NCOs, but that single sentence addressing CAP Officers could be used as justification to do whatever is deemed correct to the entry and promotion regulations for CAP Officers.


      I don't doubt that as a possibility, but you would have to set up where the new members will go before you change the Officer requirements.  That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

      Maybe we'll go the way AF dealt with Warrants. Just dont make any, but keep them on the books.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:40:01 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:33:29 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

      ???

      Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

      As a matter of fact I have 5 RM NCO's in my unit that could be CAP NCO's.  2 E-5s, 2 E-7s, and 1 E-9.  All but the E-9 is going Officer due to the no promoting clause.  How that is going to change with the new program.

      Sure, but CAP Reg clearly states E-5 and up. Also, bad news for your Chief...unless he goes to wing or up, he'll be a SMSgt.

      That's assuming that there will be no Grandfathering of current NCOs.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:42:43 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:37:43 AMThat's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

      Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
      anytime the subject is brought up.

      I've been advocating a reboot for years - done properly, fairly, and with mission-focus, and it's what CAP needs.
      Done piecemeal and for no real reason and it'll be more reason people quit.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:44:20 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:42:43 AM
      Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
      anytime the subject is brought up.

      Agreed.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 08, 2013, 02:46:34 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:42:43 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:37:43 AMThat's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

      Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
      anytime the subject is brought up.

      I've been advocating a reboot for years - done properly, fairly, and with mission-focus, and it's what CAP needs.
      Done piecemeal and for no real reason and it'll be more reason people quit.

      You mean how I'm still pissed about my cadet conference attendance and lack of credit? Yea, it sticks around in the back of the mind. Especially because I can't make it to this years confence with two years left...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 08, 2013, 03:06:44 AM
      Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

      I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 03:10:08 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 08, 2013, 03:06:44 AM
      Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

      I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.

      Also note that Ned said that he wasn't briefed on the topic. . . .So . . . you may be incorrect.

      He was asking because it wasn't posted anywhere else in this thread.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 08, 2013, 03:27:12 AM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 03:10:08 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 08, 2013, 03:06:44 AM
      Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

      I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.

      Also note that Ned said that he wasn't briefed on the topic. . . .So . . . you may be incorrect.

      He was asking because it wasn't posted anywhere else in this thread.

      Of course I could be incorrect.

      BUT, a redue of that magnitude in requirements to even join CAP is going to take buy in and an ok of the BOG.

      They will have to look at the cause and effect of any new requirements, along with all the variables that come along with it.

      A massive redue of the "officer" requirements is not something CAP can afford to do half hearted or overnight. This would directly effect each and every member and could effect our mission capabilities (IE manning numbers which are already pushed to some limits as is and member buy in).

      This is most defiantly a BOG issue, sooner or later.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 03:27:39 AM
      OK, let me pose this... everyone volunteered in CAP for a reason, those reasons vary from at the bad end they want to wear rank and a uniform and be confused for something they are not; to at the good end where they simply want to help make their communities and America as whole a better place. You will have varying shades of both end throughout the spectrum of CAP (or any other volunteer organization for that matter).

      So for those that truly are from a shade of the good end, does it really matter if they wear a blue or grey uniform and are addressed as Sergeant, Chief, Flight Officer, Warrant Officer, Lieutenant, Captain, Colonel or "Hey Joe"?

      For the majority, no, they volunteer because that's what they want to do and they will wear whatever you tell them to and be called whatever you want to call them and carry on with their current duties and missions... with some grumbling... but carry on none the less.

      So is CAP transitioning to an Enlisted/NCO centric organization vs. an Officer centric organization? Maybe.

      If the driving force of CAP's mission stays the same... does it really matter?

      Again, as an outsider looking in, I think CAP is going to trim down it's Officer Corps and direct new membership into a Enlisted (Senior Member) and NCO track and require pilot's licenses and/or bachelor degrees for future Officers.

      My guess is they will grandfather everyone's current rank and emplace the new requirements for all future new CAP members.

      Again just guessing, but this is what I think will happen:

      All prior Service Military personal E-5 and above will retain their rank, exception for Warrant Officers who will either be transitioned to 2LT or given Technical Flight Officer grades. E-4 and below will given promotions to CAP SSGT on completion of level 1 training.

      All non-prior Service will start as Enlisted (Senior Member) and will progress thru NCOs ranks. Exceptions

      Licensed pilots will complete Level 1 and will be give the choice of staying on the NCO track or transitioning to the "warrant" grades of Technical Flight Officer and will progress based on their flight certification and licenses.

      Prior CAP cadets will be jumped to CAP TSGT.

      All future Officers, to more align with USAF requirements, will be required hold a Bachelors degree from an accredited university. Other than the degree itself, the current career progression for the Officer track will remain in place.

      As I said before, current CAP Officers would be grandfathered at their current rank but will not be allowed to promote to their next rank until they complete the degree requirement.

      Over time, with normal retirements, the old CAP Officer Corps will go away and you have a "new" CAP, same mission as "old" CAP, but with more Staff NCOs and less Field Grade Officers.

      And I suspect that's what the USAF wants in the long run.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:08:53 AM
      QuoteThird, unofficial forums like CAPTalk do not reach significant numbers of the senior leadership, so "strenuous opposition" made in a place where it is unlikely to be seen and evaluated by our senior leaders does not seem a productive or efficient way to impact policy.
      Keep in mind that an individual member only has the right to make their opinions known about current or proposed regulations to ONE person -- their commander.  They may or may not feel the need to pass it up.  My personal experience is that even when pointing out actual errors (not just opinions about something) is that it rarely makes it anyplace.  My evidence -- the errors persist in the final draft of the regulations. 

      Sure, CAPTalk isn't going to make it to all the powers that be, but more officers read it than we have a right to talk to in any official capacity. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 08, 2013, 04:14:46 AM
      I don't think the organization will start requiring degrees to promote in the officer field or to even join the officer fields.  This will have growing pains and if the powers to be go the route that Shuman has envisioned I forsee a mass exodus in membership. 

      Does the organization need some fixing in aspects yes it does but we do not need to do a major overhaul on our grade system and promotion requirements.  Or incorporating WO into the mix or giving grade based upon position etc, we need to tweak the areas that need tweaking, work on improving/starting relations with other agencies and work on building our credibility in areas where it has been shot or there is little to none.

      Honestly what is really broken about our current grade structure and requirements to warrant a massive overhaul?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:26:49 AM
      Fact from the written proposal -- CAP has only 80 NCOs currently.

      Weird stuff included in the proposal-
      NCOs assigned to a "specific position/area" within the unit such as Communications Supervisor, Ground Team Supervisor, Cadet Programs Supervisor.  Anyone ever heard of those positions?  How about Chief of Logistics, Planning, or Emergency Services (as staff positions, not ES roles).  Either they're planning on creating them or this is another example of people not understanding our current structure while putting this one together. 

      Tenure requirements for staff positions for NCOs.  Officers can serve in staff positions forever, NCOs not so much. 

      After reading this, it seems like this is the first step to a major restructuring of the entire CAP program even though they aren't advertising it as such.  Possibly towards making most folks start as enlisted.  As I said earlier in the thread, I would be in favor of that, but only if there were absolutely NO way to become a CAP officer except by working your way up through the entire program.  Military officers would start as buck private.   Somehow I doubt that is going to happen. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 04:38:23 AM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:08:53 AM
      QuoteThird, unofficial forums like CAPTalk do not reach significant numbers of the senior leadership, so "strenuous opposition" made in a place where it is unlikely to be seen and evaluated by our senior leaders does not seem a productive or efficient way to impact policy.
      Keep in mind that an individual member only has the right to make their opinions known about current or proposed regulations to ONE person -- their commander.  They may or may not feel the need to pass it up.  My personal experience is that even when pointing out actual errors (not just opinions about something) is that it rarely makes it anyplace.  My evidence -- the errors persist in the final draft of the regulations. 

      Sure, CAPTalk isn't going to make it to all the powers that be, but more officers read it than we have a right to talk to in any official capacity.

      Are you quoting from a PM or an email?   I don't see that text anywhere on this site.

      As to the assertion - it's a point of fact that members of the BOG, the National CC, Wing CC's, and other national leadership lurk here regularly.  Guaranteed they are
      reading this.  More specific and direct results have come out of discussion here then will ever come out of addressing things up the chain.

      That's not always a positive, but it's a fact of life in the internet age.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:26:49 AM
      Fact from the written proposal -- CAP has only 80 NCOs currently.

      Wow - only 80, I would have thought it was more then that.

      That means that despite the seeming push by some here to jump off the metal and put their stripes back on, the
      actual growth of the program is statistically zero.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 08, 2013, 05:34:39 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 08, 2013, 02:27:29 AM
      I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs.

      Yup, that's why I left the CAP lettering in there for MSgt and above.  Personally, I think it looks better without it, but I'm sure the AF would want to make sure that random Joe Airman who somehow missed the bright red prop design and the blue nametapes/gray nametag doesn't mistake a CAP Master Sergeant for a AF Master Sergeant and freak out over it.

      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 08, 2013, 02:33:29 AM
      Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

      I find this hilarious.  "Thank you for your interest in joining CAP, Corporal. Unfortunately, the Civil Air Patrol doesn't recognize your status as an NCO. So we're going to have to make you a Lieutenant.  I am deeply sorry."

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:42:43 AM
      Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder anytime the subject is brought up.

      Heck, even a 1st Lieutenant about to make Captain.  I know I would be a touch cranky about that.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 03:27:39 AM
      All future Officers, to more align with USAF requirements, will be required hold a Bachelors degree from an accredited university. Other than the degree itself, the current career progression for the Officer track will remain in place.

      As I said before, current CAP Officers would be grandfathered at their current rank but will not be allowed to promote to their next rank until they complete the degree requirement.

      This would be a drastic mistake, and a sure way to cause a mass exodus of members.  I know I would seriously consider walking away if this was to happen.

      "Sorry Lt. Panache.  But with the overhaul, because you never spent four years of your life and $40,000 getting a degree in Mongolian Yak Husbandry, I'm afraid that we can't promote you.  But we really appreciate the hard work you've put in."

      Now, on the other hand, if I was told that I was being "demoted" to NCO status or not being allowed to progress past Lieutenant because the "commissioned" officer ranks were going to be reserved exclusively for command positions, yeah, that I would agree with.

      I still think the Warrant Officer route that others and myself have suggested would be the best course of action.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 03:27:39 AM
      All non-prior Service will start as Enlisted (Senior Member) and will progress thru NCOs ranks.

      I am wondering what NHQ's long game on this is.  It clearly stated that only current and former RealMilitaryโ„ข NCOs would be allowed to transfer/join the CAP NCO corps.  But it also hinted that this was temporary.  I suspect that you're right, and that new members will be "encouraged" to join on the enlisted side.

      But what about those new senior members who aren't 21 yet?  Will they become flight officers and be "demoted" to SSgt on their 21st birthday?  Will they hold lower enlisted grades (SMWOG, Airman Basic, Airman 1st Class, Senior Airman) and transition up to SSgt/TSgt/MSgt when they're old enough?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 05:41:37 AM
      (http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/90000/7000/900/197957/197957.strip.gif)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 08, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 07, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
      I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is?  ???

      First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 08, 2013, 06:17:45 AM
      Quote from: SarDragon on November 08, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 07, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
      I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is?  ???

      First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

      I understand that, an Army 1SG and CSM is a position while MSG and SGM are staff ranks. 

      CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?  ???
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 08, 2013, 09:54:52 AM
      Quote from: Ned on November 08, 2013, 12:24:37 AM

      I can only agree that the current state of the NCO program does not include a whole lot of people.  (But of course, each of our current NCO's is a valued member performing crucial volunteer service.)

      But over the decades that particular pendulum has swung back and forth several times.  My point is that each time we have revised the program, we have done so in an effort to improve CAP and make us more effective.  But so far, revising the NCO program has not correlated well with any significant reduction in our capabilities or size of the membership.  It is mostly "business as usual."

      I'll buy into all of that. But I keep seeing references to CAP having had NCOs for over 70 years. And, while the pendulum has swung to make CAP more effective, etc., one major swing seems to be getting all blurry and melted away.

      Specifically, out of that 70+ years, CAP has had, broadly speaking, and chronologically, 4 NCO approaches:

      1) NCO appointment (and promotions) available regardless of prior-service or no prior-service NCO status;
      3) No NCO appointment unless possessing prior-service NCO status, with no promotion possibility;
      4) The announced yet not fully briefed new system, seemingly open to prior-service NCOs and others.

      (And, while it is indeed difficult to comment on something not yet fully up for review, it does appear that #4 is more likely to be an update/upgrade/refinement of #1 rather than anything else).

      Note that I didn't list #2. Because, #2 was the period where cap had NO NCOS. None. Whether prior service or not, there were none. So it's really hard to call it an "NCO Program."  But it was definitely an "NCO approach."

      And there are three significant aspects to it:  A) It, too, was a "pendulum swing" enacted in an effort to make CAP more effective, etc., with a decision made that having no NCOs was in CAPs interests at the time; B) It was an approach of long duration - I don't have the exact ending dates handy, but I believe that it has been over 30 years since a person not having prior-service NCO status has been able to be appointed as a CAP NCO. C) It was only partially eliminated as a limited concession to prior-service NCOs in order to recognize their prior NCO status.

      So.....chronogically, we end up with....the last time that CAP engaged in a comprehensive review, shared with the membership, of the need for NCOs in CAP, the result was a conclusion that they were NOT needed. That was followed by saying that people already trained and experienced as NCOs could be accommodated, but not promoted.

      Now, some 30 years or so later, announcements are made that " NCOs are the backbone" and "excellence starts now," with the apparent decision that NCOs can not only be accommodated, but are seemingly needed. Yet...nobody seems to know what it is about this approach #4 that overturns the documented, discussed and published reviews that were made available to the membership before they were enacted three decades ago.

      Yes, as a CAP officer, I'll support it. But, as a CAP officer, I am disappointed that this indeed seems to have been done backwards this go around. It's a true puzzlement to me.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:39:04 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 06:17:45 AMCAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

      No.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jeders on November 08, 2013, 02:51:27 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 06:17:45 AMCAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

      There is an NCO support chain position, squadron NCO. However, it seems that even the powers that be recognize that there won't ever, or at least for a significant amount of time, be enough NCOs in a squadron to warrant having a First Sergeant.
      Title: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 03:24:26 PM
      Quote from: a2capt on November 08, 2013, 12:17:29 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 11:04:26 PM.. mostly because I feel we have too many officers in CAP..
      What an interesting observation. ;) Considering that is our current ranking system, should we take that as "we have too many (Senior) members? ..and if we have too many, do we just shut down recruiting for a while?

      No to all accounts. What I meant is that an officer in CAP is not the same as an officer anywhere else (military or otherwise). So, why do we have CAP officers, wearing officer grade insignias, not doing the work that an officer would normally do? That's really my point when I say we have "too" many officer.

      At some point, and I hope I'm not offending anyone since I'm a CAP officer too, it becomes more about ego. Many want to be officers not because they're commanding or leading anything, but because it's a recognition of service, professional development and progression in the organization. But that's not why most organizations (and I'm not just talking about the military) have "officers". An officer grade should denote authority, competency and responsibility, but that's not always the case in CAP.

      (edited for grammar)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FW on November 08, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
       It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility. 

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jeders on November 08, 2013, 03:35:14 PM
      Quote from: FW on November 08, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
      It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

      If both the NCO and officer programs are restructured in a way to make this happen without killing our membership numbers, then I welcome it. However, history isn't on our side.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 08, 2013, 03:41:35 PM
      I have a strange feeling that this is a half-baked idea that was floated before it received full authorization from the Air Force and that is why we are not getting any details or direction.  As has been mentioned, this was attempted years ago and ended up going nowhere.  It's kind of cheap for some to run around touting it's all about "Respect", but then to totally ignore all of the E-4's and below that served proudly and are just as proud of their rank as the NCO's are.  Where is the "Respect" for them??  I predict this is going nowhere..
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
      Quote from: FW on November 08, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
      It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

      Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 04:26:28 PM

      Quote from: SarDragon on November 08, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 07, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
      I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is?  ???

      First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

      I don't think we need a CAP [Command] Chief Master Sergeant either, but we do.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FW on November 08, 2013, 04:56:19 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
      Quote from: FW on November 08, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
      It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

      Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route.
      In a perfect CAP universe, that may be the solution.  Those accepted to the OE2 program will become officers; eligible for command and upper level leadership positions.  In any event, I've enjoyed reading these many thoughts, and eating many bowls of popcorn.. :D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on November 08, 2013, 06:11:41 PM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
      Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route.

      Actually, in my reading of the USAF PDF (on the third time now), I see SMWOG as the sub-NCO level of enlisted seniors.  I get this from Item 4. Restructure Program: / Section d. Promotion Criteria / Paragraph 1. "All members, regardless of current, former or retired military rank will enter CAP as a Senior Member".  Then it goes on talking about getting promoted from there.  To me, it sounds like that SMWOG is below the NCOs and be the starting block for all.  Then in Phase III, the item discussed before "Complete revision of promotion eligibility and PD training criteria to synchronize Officer and NCO Corps.   ;)

      I wouldn't be surprised if that "grade" sees some changes too.  Namely, no officer braid on flight cap, no officer braid on service coat, etc.  So, a chart like this:

      Military Equiv.             CAP Grade                                                         
      E1 through E4            Senior Memb W/O Grade
      E5 through E7            CAP Company NCOs
      E8 through E9            CAP Senior NCOs (only at Group/Wing or higher)
      O-1 through O-3         CAP Company Officers
      O-4 through O-8         CAP Field/General Officers (only at Group/Wing or higher)

      Not a bad idea, in theory.  One draw back is the movement of people from a higher echelon to a lower one. (e.g. Wing to Squadron), as that type of movement is not possible in the USAF, but it is reality in CAP.  I am sure there are other drawbacks, but there are positives too.

      I would still like to see a strategy that links the NCO Corps to an overall goal.  But, that is above my pay grade (of nothing, LOL).

      But I could see a bunch of "slick sleeve" SMWOG, and NCOs and three-four officers (Command staff only) as the entire senior staff in a unit.  Might actually make sense, but according to the PDF, there are three phases, each lasting 18-24 months, so that is a 6 year plan for just the NCO/enlisted Corps.  Then, possibly a 6 year re-org for officers, that is a 12 year goal.   Possibly the longest implementation plan I have seen in some time.

      Very interesting.  May you live in interesting times.   >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 07:00:43 PM

      Quote from: Papabird on November 08, 2013, 06:11:41 PM
      Not a bad idea, in theory.  One draw back is the movement of people from a higher echelon to a lower one. (e.g. Wing to Squadron), as that type of movement is not possible in the USAF, but it is reality in CAP.

      Actually, that is possible in the USAF, especially in the Reserve, but it's just done a bit differently. A Lt Col assigned as a staff officer in higher headquarters can return to a squadron, but usually returns as a Commander or Operations Officer (AF equivalent to a Deputy Commander in CAP).

      In squadrons with large amounts of officers (e.g. flying units), they may also also come back in a position such as Chief Pilot, Chief of Stan/Eval or Chief of Current Ops, just to name a few. What you're not going to see in the Air Force is a Lt Col assigned to a squadron where the Commander is a Capt.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MHC5096 on November 08, 2013, 07:21:28 PM
      However I have seen a Lieutenant Colonel resign his commission after being passed over for O-6 and enlist as a Staff Sergeant because he didn't want to retire. One weekend he's a Squadron Commander and the next drill weekend he's a personnel troop wearing stripes. Of course my unit was odd like that. We also had a number of E-5s, E-6s and E-7s who were Air Force Academy graduates. In thier case, they had fulfilled thier active duty obligations as officers and there were no available officer billets when they affiliated with the Air National Guard.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JC004 on November 08, 2013, 07:50:13 PM
      So...it's pretty obvious that many CAP units struggle with manning (maybe most, when you consider manning everything).  Many units struggle with having someone ready and willing to take command.  Since the Air Force doesn't want units commanded by CAP NCOs, does a pool of mostly NCOs cut down on potential commanders even MORE? 

      Would people be hopping from SSgt to 1st Lt to fill a needed command slot? 

      CAP squadrons tend to be small.  Air Force squadrons (and the ability to move people around) are a WHOLE different ball game.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on November 08, 2013, 08:18:18 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 07:00:43 PM

      What you're not going to see in the Air Force is a Lt Col assigned to a squadron where the Commander is a Capt.

      Sorry, I wasn't clear.  This is the situation that was what I was referring, the whole Lt Col getting the coffee situation.  I understand the other examples as well, and they could be the same (Advisor to the commander, etc.), but it won't take long for units to get top heavy again.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ZigZag911 on November 08, 2013, 08:23:57 PM
      Quote from: Patterson on November 08, 2013, 02:32:14 AM
      For those "older" members, I am curious what the feelings were when CAP eliminated the Enlisted Grades from the program, only allowing former military members to wear stripes??

      While I don't recall exact dates, there was a long period of time between elimination of enlisted grades and the establishment of the present ("prior service NCOs only") system.

      WIWAC, as I understood it, warrant grades were reserved for SMs who were 21 or older (eventually this was changed for former cadets under 21 with Mitchell or better), as well as commissioned grades...NCOs thus tended to be SMs under 21 years old, lacking prior cadet service (or at east lacking a milestone award)...there did not seem to be any standards or requirements, appointment and promotion was by squadron CCs, and most of those I encountered were MSgts.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FW on November 08, 2013, 09:09:07 PM
      ^That's how I remember the system to work so many years ago. There were no CAP NCO's over the age of 21 that I can remember back then.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 08, 2013, 09:31:21 PM
      QuoteAll members, regardless of current, former or retired military rank will enter CAP as a Senior Member".

      Well, this is the current situation.  Everyone enters CAP as a SM.  Then they either promote up, choose to demote to NCO, or stay where they are by refusing promotion. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 08, 2013, 09:41:22 PM
      Quote from: MHC5096 on November 08, 2013, 07:21:28 PM
      However I have seen a Lieutenant Colonel resign his commission after being passed over for O-6 and enlist as a Staff Sergeant because he didn't want to retire. One weekend he's a Squadron Commander and the next drill weekend he's a personnel troop wearing stripes. Of course my unit was odd like that. We also had a number of E-5s, E-6s and E-7s who were Air Force Academy graduates. In thier case, they had fulfilled thier active duty obligations as officers and there were no available officer billets when they affiliated with the Air National Guard.

      Lt. Col. Bill Dunn, USAF, former pilot in one of the RAF Eagle Squadrons, was victim of a reduction in force post-WWII. He describes in his biography how he met with a classification officer and was offered MSgt, then argued with him and walked out as a TSgt. with Senior Pilot USAF wings and RAF wings, which must have been interesting. He later rose to CW4 and served in Vietnam.

      I knew a USAF captain who was "RIF'd" in the early 1970's as Vietnam started drawing down. He became an A1C. Proudly wore his two stripes and pilot wings, just needed a while to retire. And, retirement comes at highest grade held.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 08, 2013, 09:43:53 PM
      Quote from: FW on November 08, 2013, 09:09:07 PM
      ^That's how I remember the system to work so many years ago. There were no CAP NCO's over the age of 21 that I can remember back then.

      I remember meeting several. One was a former UK ATC cadet, who simply liked being a MSgt. The others had their own reasons, I suppose.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 10:00:07 PM
      During World War I and II (and I assume this was also the case in other conflicts), it not uncommon for someone in the Armed Forces to be promoted to a higher temporary grade, while assuming command or staff responsibilities equivalent to that grade. Once the tour or assignment was over, they reverted to their permanent grades unless given a new assignment at that level or a permanent promotion. There's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 10:00:07 PMThere's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.

      Cost? (for starters).  Not the top factor but needs to be on the list.

      In the military you're being compensated for your time and issued your uniform and insignia (or get an allowance).
      The way people in CAP move around this could actually be a burden for some.

      What about if you are posted at several echelons and the job has different grade for each job?

      How about major activity commanders who are also active in their home squadrons?  Would it be appropriate to have a TSgt as an
      encampment commander?  I would say "no" if we're going to start living in a world where grade means more then a check to Vanguard.

      And while the situations where a field-grade officer reports to a company-grade officer might be unusual in the military (but not unheard of, especially in flying units), it's not only common, but the status quo in CAP, not to mention cross-posting and circular command chains.

      And unless someone has about 7-10000 adults chomping for membership, saying multi-echelon posting is verboten will shut CAP down as soon as
      it's enforced.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 11:12:43 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 10:00:07 PMThere's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.

      Cost? (for starters).  Not the top factor but needs to be on the list.

      In the military you're being compensated for your time and issued your uniform and insignia (or get an allowance).
      The way people in CAP move around this could actually be a burden for some.

      I agree that CAP uniforms and insignias can be expensive and the way we move around could exacerbate that cost to the member. That said, I don't think that moving from position to position in a short period of time is good for the organization (although I realize it may be necessary at times because we don't have enough people stepping up to fill every position). Either way, I don't think each move would necessitate a new grade, every time.

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      What about if you are posted at several echelons and the job has different grade for each job?

      Regardless of how many duty positions you're assigned to, you would only be promoted to one grade at a time (it could be one for the higher position or for your primary duty assignment). We do that right now with positions such as wing commander. And their grade is initially temporary. We also do it in the military, where an officer is assigned to one primary position, but may have other additional duties, even at higher headquarters just like in CAP (think ADY).

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      How about major activity commanders who are also active in their home squadrons?  Would it be appropriate to have a TSgt as an
      encampment commander?  I would say "no" if we're going to start living in a world where grade means more then a check to Vanguard.

      While I don't necessarily disagree, I'm not sure I follow your point here.

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      And while the situations where a field-grade officer reports to a company-grade officer might be unusual in the military (but not unheard of, especially in flying units), it's not only common, but the status quo in CAP, not to mention cross-posting and circular command chains.

      Actually, it's not common. The situation that I assume you're referring to is where the pilot in command (i.e. the aircraft commander) may be a Capt, whereas the navigator may be a Lt Col. In the aircraft, the PIC is in command, regardless of grade (no different from the ICS structure, where incident positions matter over grade or permanent duty positions). In the ground, however, the Capt wouldn't be the squadron commander of a flying unit, especially of one where there's a Lt Col assigned to that unit.

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
      And unless someone has about 7-10000 adults chomping for membership, saying multi-echelon posting is verboten will shut CAP down as soon as it's enforced.

      That should not be an issue, at all. I don't see a problem with members serving in multiple positions or at different echelons.

      Look, my idea may not be ideal, but the current situation isn't ideal either. The bottom line is, we've been doing business the same way for decades and the current situation is not much different than it was before. I know you keep saying we "need more people" and I agree, but we also need a better program for those new people. Otherwise, we'll continue with the status quo that we have right now, which hasn't proven to be effective.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 08, 2013, 11:22:09 PM
      And doing temp grades based upon position will?  Yes we do it for Wing CC and up but to me that seems more of an administrative PIA than anything else and increases the workload on a burdened system already.

      Honestly the system works, and there are enough kinks in it to cause it to get backlogged and grind slow let's not burden it with more red-tape and admin processes. 

      Could we benefit from an NCO program maybe, but this is still to fledgling for anyone to say if it will work or not, and way to many bugs in it and not enough info.  Can we have a NCO side and an Officer side I don't see why not we have infrastructure in place we just need to implement the NCO side of things into it. 

      We don't need to change the system of awarding grade, and instituting warrants or throwing additional requirements on membership in order to progress.  We need to work the kinks out of the system first and foremost, adjust as needed and carry on.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 12:12:49 AM
      I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

      Make it so that the Basic Entry is

      SM
      Airman after completing Level One
      Airman First Class after four months TIG
      Senior Airman After Four Months TIG
      Staff Sergeant after Completion of any Technician Rating
      Technical Sergeant after 1 year TIG or qualified as MO, MP, GTL, CUL, LO, FASC, FLS, LSC, MSO *
      Master Sergeant after 1 year TIG and Level 2
      Senior Master Sergeant after 2 year TIG and Level 3
      Chief Master Sergeant after 2 year TIG and Wing Level Approval.

      All Officer Related Grades after Completion of a CAP Leadership program (Read:Officer Candidate Program including OBC) Must be at least a SSGT in good standing and recommended by any CAP officer to be eligible to attend.

      There should be no artificial cap on the number authorized or level served. These Positions are not subject to any Monetary Incentive so we shouldn't implement fake limits.  Those are not expectations we have on the Officer Corps.  The Grade structure should reflect the members progress and commitment to our organization.

      Those who choose to be Officers and those that choose to stay "enlisted" should have options.   The Idea is that we have those who wish to serve even if in a limited capacity should still have a way to be recognized instead of being a First Lieutenant or a Captain forever.

      Just a thought.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 09, 2013, 12:18:03 AM
      QuoteAirman after completing Level One
      Airman First Class after four months TIG
      Senior Airman After Four Months TIG
      Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 09, 2013, 12:23:48 AM
      Even simpler. Just skip all that madness.
      We have a command and grade structure that works for our organization now.

      We are "CAP Officers", not Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard, NOAA, whatever. But Civil Air Patrol.

      Our organization functions differently, as do many others individually.

      Our Grade structure is more of an extension to what we've done within the organization. Rank and Grade are not the same thing.

      Those chevrons would have looked a little nicer if the blue field at the top formed the diamond shape even with the over-stripes missing.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 01:17:14 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 12:12:49 AM
      I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

      Yep - NCOs are supposed to be small-squad cat herders of the enlisted - the lowest rung grunts who need the most supervision, training, mentoring and "care and feeding".

      Where are those?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 01:30:27 AM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 09, 2013, 12:18:03 AM
      QuoteAirman after completing Level One
      Airman First Class after four months TIG
      Senior Airman After Four Months TIG
      Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months.

      I know, I was thinking that a big part of Senior Members doing the one and done type memberships, This could let them feel a little appreciated and invested into the program.  The concept is this might help with recruiting an retention and keep them involved all while completing part of our mission.

      If they see that advancement is feasible when actually participating in the program.

      There are Graduates of the Military basic training that Graduate with E2 or E3 and then E4 and sometimes even E5 after the completion of their MOS school.  I don't think that a rapid sequence of promotions is completely out of order for someone who is an active participant.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 01:33:31 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 01:17:14 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 12:12:49 AM
      I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

      Yep - NCOs are supposed to be small-squad cat herders of the enlisted - the lowest rung grunts who need the most supervision, training, mentoring and "care and feeding".

      Where are those?

      The NCO's in the program (ie. Those who have completed a Technician Rating) would be the mentors for cadets especially when doing an SDA as well as new senior members in the process of completing a Technician Rating.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 01:40:35 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 01:33:31 AMThe NCO's in the program (ie. Those who have completed a Technician Rating) would be the mentors for cadets especially when doing an SDA as well as new senior members in the process of completing a Technician Rating.

      Too bad they can't do that now, that would be great.

      Oh, wait...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 01:43:22 AM
      http://capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657 (http://capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657)

      (http://capvolunteernow.com/file.cfm/media/news/NHQncochevrons_copy_copy_AAC2F8ED191F7.jpg)

      "Civil Air Patrol's noncommissioned officer corps is poised to become a larger and far more significant and dynamic facet of the all-volunteer organization's operations and missions.

      Under a plan recently approved and signed by Air Force Manpower and Reserve Affairs Assistant Secretary Daniel Ginsberg, CAP's NCO program is being restructured to align with the U.S. Air Force's structure for NCOs.

      Maj. Gen. Chuck Carr, CAP's national commander, himself a retired Air Force master sergeant, said he looks forward to the NCOs' expanded role in bolstering the organization's capabilities and mission readiness.

      "NCOs are the backbone of the military services," Carr said. "They will fulfill just as valuable a role throughout CAP."

      For CAP Chief Master Sgt. Lou E. Todd, the change is more than welcome, and she looks forward to seeing the new set-up implemented as soon as the corresponding regulations are updated.

      Until now, only former active-duty NCOs were allowed to join CAP's NCO corps, and then only at the ranks they held in the military. No upgrade training was available for promotion within the NCO ranks.

      Under the restructured program, though, that will change. The newly approved corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs.

      "We're expanding it," Todd said. "We're making it a lot better."

      In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels โ€“ squadron, group, wing, region or national โ€“ except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.

      For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 โ€“ staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant โ€“ in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard.

      Along with making the organization more appealing to past and present military NCOs, the restructured program is also designed to provide CAP commanders at all levels with greater access to the professional military skills, training and experience that the NCOs can readily provide. CAP members without military backgrounds are also expected to benefit from their NCO colleagues' expertise in military organization, leadership and management.

      In addition, Todd said, the option of moving up into the NCO corps and then progressing from rank to rank within it should give interested CAP cadets something new to aim for as well.

      "We have high expectations for the program," she said. "We're excited to get going with it."
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 01:53:49 AM
      ^^^ I'm Guessing the Powerpoint are the rank style they have decided on because the second picture has CMSgt Todd sporting the new stripes.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 02:15:06 AM
      I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 02:21:11 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 02:15:06 AM
      I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.

      So you feel the bar is not high enough?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2013, 02:39:04 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 06:17:45 AMCAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

      No.

      And why not oh grand mufti of all knowledge near, far, and CAP?  ::)

      If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AM
      Quote from: jeders on November 08, 2013, 02:51:27 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 08, 2013, 06:17:45 AMCAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

      There is an NCO support chain position, squadron NCO. However, it seems that even the powers that be recognize that there won't ever, or at least for a significant amount of time, be enough NCOs in a squadron to warrant having a First Sergeant.

      but the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      Plus your argument holds no water when you have squadrons filled with MAJs and LTCs "commanded" by 1LTs. Adding a First Sergeant position simply follows normal military protocol. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AMbut the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 03:31:30 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 02:21:11 AM
      So you feel the bar is not high enough?

      Yes, I do feel the bar is not high enough.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 03:32:28 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 02:21:11 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 02:15:06 AM
      I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.

      So you feel the bar is not high enough?

      No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 03:33:40 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 08, 2013, 04:26:28 PM

      Quote from: SarDragon on November 08, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 07, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
      I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is?  ???

      First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

      I don't think we need a CAP [Command] Chief Master Sergeant either, but we do.

      Kinda my point, why have the top rung of the NCO Support Chain but none of the other links in place.  ???
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:34:53 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AMIf you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      The backbone of CAP is, always has been, and always will be, the volunteer membership.

      Frankly it is somewhat insulting to the people who have held this organization together for the last 20 years or so with bubble gum and scotch
      tape, but apparently, without the aid of a backbone.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AMbut the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

      CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game.  ;)

      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
      If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:49:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

      Yes, it does.  If you understood CAP, you wouldn't ask it to start with.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:34:53 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AMIf you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      The backbone of CAP is, always has been, and always will be, the volunteer membership.

      Frankly it is somewhat insulting to the people who have held this organization together for the last 20 years or so with bubble gum and scotch
      tape, but apparently, without the aid of a backbone.
      You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

      If CAP is so bad, or so broken, so insulting to it's members... why do you stick around?  :-\
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 03:53:12 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 03:32:28 AM
      No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

      Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

      You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
      If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

      There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

      Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

      I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

      Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

      I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:00:38 AM
      To say that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force is one thing, but to say that they're the backbone of CAP is another. NCOs are >NOT< the backbone of CAP. There's just not enough of them in the organization to really make a difference. I'm not trying to minimize the contribution of our current NCO members, but their contributions have nothing to do with the fact that they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. In order for NCOs to become the backbone of CAP, most of our membership would have to be enlisted. Even if that was the plan, it would take years to implement and there's no guarantee of success.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 04:02:15 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:49:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

      Yes, it does.  If you understood CAP, you wouldn't ask it to start with.

      I see, I don't know and I don't want to know. Thanks COL Jessup.
      (http://[url=http://hillsidelending.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/pic_jessup2.jpg?w=450&h=170%5Dhttp://hillsidelending.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/pic_jessup2.jpg?w=450&h=170%5B/url%5D)
      ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:03:53 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
      Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

      I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

      Not necessarily something in our best interests given that we have minors in our care and that thought process would open up alot of liability concerns.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 04:06:24 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:00:38 AM
      To say that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force is one thing, but to say that they're the backbone of CAP is another. NCOs are >NOT< the backbone of CAP. There's just not enough of them in the organization to really make a difference. I'm not trying to minimize the contribution of our current NCO members, but their contributions have nothing to do with the fact that they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. In order for NCOs to become the backbone of CAP, most of our membership would have to be enlisted. Even if that was the plan, it would take years to implement and there's no guarantee of success.

      But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:08:21 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
      If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

      There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

      Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

      I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

      Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

      I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

      I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 04:10:00 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:03:53 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
      Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

      I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

      Not necessarily something in our best interests given that we have minors in our care and that thought process would open up alot of liability concerns.

      Actually it would because the cadets would call First Sergeant before the call the commander with the silly ideas that all teenagers have. A good First Sergeant could save a commander MANY headaches.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:06:24 AM
      But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 04:14:57 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:08:21 AM
      I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.

      It's not a circumvent, it's a system that works hand in hand.

      Think of it of a child with a mom and dad, the child may have a question to ask mom but is afraid to ask it, the child can go to dad and get advice before approaching mom.

      As long as mom and dad are on the same sheet of music, it's a system that works well.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:06:24 AM
      But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

      How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:19:12 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
      You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

      Stating facts and presenting informed opinion, hard to accept or otherwise, is not "trash talking", it's how positive, change begins.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:21:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

      How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.
      [/quote]

      Most units have no need for a 1st Sgt and this program is not well thought out.  Again we are dealing with minors here and in no way is it smart for the commander to be left out even for minutes depending on the circumstances.  I would recommend you read CAPR52-16 and CPPT a huge aspect of the mission is cadet programs and with the thought process you have outlined is bad for business. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AMA good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:26:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:14:57 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:08:21 AM
      I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.

      It's not a circumvent, it's a system that works hand in hand.

      Think of it of a child with a mom and dad, the child may have a question to ask mom but is afraid to ask it, the child can go to dad and get advice before approaching mom.

      As long as mom and dad are on the same sheet of music, it's a system that works well.

      But why would such a system be needed in CAP? There's no enlisted membership. The proposed program only envisions NCOs and even then, there's no guarantee that there would be a massive influx of new NCO members.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:47:11 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:06:24 AM
      But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

      How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      I'm not sure if you're aware of the differences between an Army and an Air Force First Sergeant. As I understand it, the Army 1SG is a rank (E-8), whereas the Air Force 1st Sgt is a position (usually E-7, although it can be E-8 or even E-9 in larger units or higher headquarters). The Army 1SG (E-8) reports to the company commander, usually a CPT (O-3). The Air Force 1st Sgt, who usually holds the rank go MSgt (E-7), reports to the squadron commander, usually a Lt Col (O-5) in larger units or a Maj (O-4) in smaller ones. Unlike in the Army company, where the 1SG is the ranking NCO, in the Air Force squadron there are several NCOs (SMSgt, CMSgt) that actually outrank the 1st Sgt and many more that rank equally (other MSgts). The dynamic, as you can see, is quite different in the Air Force than in the Army.

      Now, when adding CAP to the mix, I suspect the dynamic would be even more of a contrast as you would have units with cadets, officers and very few (if any) NCOs. I think the role of a CAP 1st Sgt would have to be quite different from that of the Army and Air Force. And to be honest, I'm still not sure it's needed.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 09, 2013, 05:16:05 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
      If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

      There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

      There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

      Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

      I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

      Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

      I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

      Yeah, that's they "Army" way. Doesn't really work that way in the Air Force. No such thing as a NCO Support Channel in the Air Force.
      It's just the nature of the beast.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 09, 2013, 05:41:44 AM
      Quote from: RiverAux on November 09, 2013, 12:18:03 AM
      QuoteAirman after completing Level One
      Airman First Class after four months TIG
      Senior Airman After Four Months TIG
      Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months.

      And, if you bust your hump after joining and get your Technician rating, you could conceivably be a SSgt in six months.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 05:54:00 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:19:12 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
      You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

      Stating facts and presenting informed opinion, hard to accept or otherwise, is not "trash talking", it's how positive, change begins.

      But you never say anything positive.  :-\
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 05:56:25 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 05:54:00 AM
      But you never say anything positive.

      Really?  Hm.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 05:56:55 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:21:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

      How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      Most units have no need for a 1st Sgt and this program is not well thought out.  Again we are dealing with minors here and in no way is it smart for the commander to be left out even for minutes depending on the circumstances.  I would recommend you read CAPR52-16 and CPPT a huge aspect of the mission is cadet programs and with the thought process you have outlined is bad for business.
      [/quote]

      Well it sounds like a recipe for commander burnout and data overload to me. I'm just saying.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 05:58:18 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AMA good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

      And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 06:01:23 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 05:58:18 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AMA good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

      And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.

      http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/ (http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 06:01:54 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 03:53:12 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 03:32:28 AM
      No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

      Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

      You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course.

      Yes, Sir I understand that Air Patrol members come from all types of backgrounds and it's for that very reason that we have commonality in training. Since we are all from different backgrounds it's the training that makes us similar so we can operate as a team. You state "that OBC is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt" while CAPR 35-5 states that all that is needed for promotion to 1Lt is 12months time in grade and a Specialty track Tech Rating; one has to have the OBC to complete Level 2 training and promote to Captain. So a member does not need any Officer training until they go for Captain and have been an Officer for 3 are more years. Can you think of any other corporation that would place someone into a leadership/management position for three or more years without any management training? I can agree with you about leadership being an art form but even art can be taught.   In regards to the NCO Corps I am not sure what type of training they will be offered for a PME or CDC but CAP has stated that the NCO "corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs" and if this is the case I am sure they will be given supervisory and management training at least.  I am just very curious about how CAP plans to implement this new NCO program and can barely wait until they come out with the new regs.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 06:08:09 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 04:47:11 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:06:24 AM
      But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

      Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

      And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

      How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      I'm not sure if you're aware of the differences between an Army and an Air Force First Sergeant. As I understand it, the Army 1SG is a rank (E-8), whereas the Air Force 1st Sgt is a position (usually E-7, although it can be E-8 or even E-9 in larger units or higher headquarters). The Army 1SG (E-8) reports to the company commander, usually a CPT (O-3). The Air Force 1st Sgt, who usually holds the rank go MSgt (E-7), reports to the squadron commander, usually a Lt Col (O-5) in larger units or a Maj (O-4) in smaller ones. Unlike in the Army company, where the 1SG is the ranking NCO, in the Air Force squadron there are several NCOs (SMSgt, CMSgt) that actually outrank the 1st Sgt and many more that rank equally (other MSgts). The dynamic, as you can see, is quite different in the Air Force than in the Army.

      Now, when adding CAP to the mix, I suspect the dynamic would be even more of a contrast as you would have units with cadets, officers and very few (if any) NCOs. I think the role of a CAP 1st Sgt would have to be quite different from that of the Army and Air Force. And to be honest, I'm still not sure it's needed.

      The Platoon Sergeant, the First Sergeant and the Command Sergeant Major (insert Battalion, Regiment, Group, Brigade, Division, Corps, Echelon-above-God) all comprise the NCO Support chain in the Army and conduct the roles/missions that an USAF First Sergeant does. Depending on the unit type there will be numerous Sergeant First Classes, Master Sergeants and staff Sergeant Majors at those various levels that outrank this support chain NCO but are not in the chain of command either.

      What you are describing is not unique to the Air Force, we have it in the Army too, just different titles.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 05:56:25 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 05:54:00 AM
      But you never say anything positive.

      Really?  Hm.

      Direct observation here, you're always a "Ray of Sunshine" in your posts.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 06:12:24 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 06:01:23 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 05:58:18 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 04:19:07 AMA good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

      And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

      And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.

      http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/ (http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/)

      Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 06:17:14 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 06:12:24 AM
      Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?

      Read them.

      Spend a few years in a unit.

      Then we can have a real discussion.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 06:19:21 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 09, 2013, 05:16:05 AM
      Yeah, that's they "Army" way. Doesn't really work that way in the Air Force. No such thing as a NCO Support Channel in the Air Force.
      It's just the nature of the beast.

      I can see that in the Air Force where the ratio to Officer to Enlisted is much higher tha the Army.

      But I've been on the Staffs of several high level commands (Division and an Army Staff) and I'm currently assigned to a simulation training Brigade where 95% of the unit is O-4 and above; but in all those cases we had an NCO Support Chain and a First Sergeant.

      Again Army vs Air Force thinking, I guess.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 06:20:58 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 06:17:14 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 06:12:24 AM
      Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?

      Read them.

      Spend a few years in a unit.

      Then we can have a real discussion.

      Naw, I think keep coming here and being a thorn in your side... it's more fun.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 09, 2013, 06:59:18 AM
      Why are we suddenly arguing about first shirts?

      The paper that was linked clearly stated that we don't get first shirts...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 09, 2013, 07:01:44 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AMbut the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

      CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game.  ;)

      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

      Thank you for your donation. Here is your PATRON membership card. Have a nice day!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 07:04:16 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 09, 2013, 06:59:18 AM
      Why are we suddenly arguing about first shirts?

      The paper that was linked clearly stated that we don't get first shirts...

      That's what started it... I asked why no First Sergeants.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 09, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 09, 2013, 07:01:44 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AMbut the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

      CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game.  ;)

      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

      Thank you for your donation. Here is your PATRON membership card. Have a nice day!

      Your welcome. Now I'm a paying troll.  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 09, 2013, 07:09:08 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 09, 2013, 07:01:44 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 03:45:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 02:38:16 AMbut the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

      You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

      CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game.  ;)

      Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

      Thank you for your donation. Here is your PATRON membership card. Have a nice day!

      Your welcome. Now I'm a paying troll.  ;D

      Donating troll. Full member dues are higher, our time spent is higher, direct and indirect $$$ is higher as well. We have buy in. Patrons, off the street don't.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 09, 2013, 07:24:14 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 09, 2013, 07:04:16 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 09, 2013, 06:59:18 AM
      Why are we suddenly arguing about first shirts?

      The paper that was linked clearly stated that we don't get first shirts...

      That's what started it... I asked why no First Sergeants.

      You asked why. We told you.

      Don't keep peeing in our Post Toasties trying to convince us otherwise without an adequate knowledge of how we do things here in CAP. The Army way is not the AF way, is not the CAP way. Until you can give up the Army think for a while, you're just wasting everyone's time.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 12:51:26 PM
      @ shuman14

      If you have such obvious interest in CAP, why don't you find a unit and become a full, active member? It's easy to offer opinions from the sidelines, but what we really need is people who are willing to work to make CAP better.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 09, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.
      But what happens when unit B is 2 hours away?   I drove 45 min to get to my unit. The next closest would have been a 4 hour round trip.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 09, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
      He thinks he is at the same level that Gen Carr is...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 09, 2013, 05:13:39 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 08, 2013, 03:41:35 PM... but then to totally ignore all of the E-4's and below that served proudly and are just as proud of their rank as the NCO's are.  Where is the "Respect" for them??  I predict this is going nowhere..

      Great point here. In CAP we can have E-4 = Sgt since E-5 is a SSgt. But I know lots of people have several honorably and discharged at E-3. I had several former serviceman who join CAP who were E-1 or E-2 when they were discharged for health reasons during or after boot camp.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 09, 2013, 05:15:28 PM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 09, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
      He thinks he is at the same level that Gen Carr is...

      Flyer

      I am guessing 25% of our membership does too and to balance that out, SWAG 25% does not know who Gen Carr is ...  8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 09, 2013, 05:19:00 PM
      Is General Carr something made by General Motors?   ;D  OH MAN!  Wheeeeeeww :clap:.....  thank you thank you.... Ill be performing all night. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 09, 2013, 06:09:52 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 07, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
      I see the logic of limiting the number of SMSgts and CMSgts, but I don't see the need to limit MSgts. If NHQ doesn't want too many of them, then why not just make the grade harder to attain?


      As it stands now, it's quite simple. Move your MSgt buddy to unit B, while Unit A has TSgt promote. move MSgt back to unit A when done. Repeat for unit B moving guys to unit A to get the "at time of promotion" slot open.
      But what happens when unit B is 2 hours away?   I drove 45 min to get to my unit. The next closest would have been a 4 hour round trip.

      They don't have to go too meetings there, or at all while someone else gets a promo. But as has been pointed out there is that magic tenure.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 06:18:20 PM
      All the more reason manning tables don't work in a depopulated CAP with 1/2 the charters and 2/3rds the membership it had the last time they were used.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ZigZag911 on November 09, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
      Squadrons most likely will not have enough CAP NCOs to justify a first sergeant, at least early on in this program...perhaps it ought to be considered as an option for wings using a group structure, as a group level position.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 08:13:29 PM
      Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 09, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
      Squadrons most likely will not have enough CAP NCOs to justify a first sergeant, at least early on in this program...perhaps it ought to be considered as an option for wings using a group structure, as a group level position.

      It'll never work - no place for the diamond.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 09, 2013, 11:56:47 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2013, 08:13:29 PM
      Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 09, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
      Squadrons most likely will not have enough CAP NCOs to justify a first sergeant, at least early on in this program...perhaps it ought to be considered as an option for wings using a group structure, as a group level position.

      It'll never work - no place for the diamond.

      I'd wait until this program is rolled out and in effect for a while to see if the need for a diamond or a star develops.  I don't want to cast judgment before I see how the program matures.  Otherwise I'd agree that based on the limited information we have there is no place for it, no point putting the cart before the horse.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 12:09:42 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      Agreed
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 04:37:18 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 09, 2013, 12:51:26 PM
      @ shuman14

      If you have such obvious interest in CAP, why don't you find a unit and become a full, active member? It's easy to offer opinions from the sidelines, but what we really need is people who are willing to work to make CAP better.

      Oh I suspect I will, life's just been a little busy these last few months.

      I went from being an unemployed Graduate student to working fulltime as a VA Police Officer. I finished finished my Masters and now I have the VA LETC class in January.

      Plus my Army Reserve unit is pushing me to attend ILE Phase II & III this year. So until the end of summer FY 14, my free time to volunteer is minimum.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 05:07:31 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 09, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
      He thinks he is at the same level that Gen Carr is...

      Flyer

      No, but as a former NCO, like MG Carr, I think I understand his motives.

      Maybe you're all right about First Sergeants, maybe there isn't a need... now. There may be in the future.

      As an outsider looking in, I can see issues with the organization, which I'm afraid many of you in the CAPTalk Sunshine Brigade are too close to to see, or (more likely) you are part of the problem itself.

      I've never seen a bunch of greater naysayers then I have seen since coming to CAPTalk. Phrases like: "That will never happen in CAP" or "That's the way we've always done it" are all I hear here. Any suggestion for change, regardless from inside or outside of CAP, is treated like blasphemy! I've never seen a group more resistant to institutional change than you. (Except maybe the Palestinians.)

      MG Carr is going to turn CAP into an NCO driven organization and downsize the Officer Corps, which I believe the USAF wholeheartedly supports.

      I would make that steak dinner bet that a degree requirement for future officer promotion beyond 1LT, just like the Military, is coming.  ;)

      Gentlemen and Ladies!!! You are truly living in interesting times in CAP, I wish you all the very best of luck in it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 05:08:31 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2013, 05:19:00 PM
      Is General Carr something made by General Motors?   ;D  OH MAN!  Wheeeeeeww :clap:.....  thank you thank you.... Ill be performing all night.

      Now that's funny!  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 05:11:04 AM
      Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 09, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
      Squadrons most likely will not have enough CAP NCOs to justify a first sergeant, at least early on in this program...perhaps it ought to be considered as an option for wings using a group structure, as a group level position.

      A reasonable suggestion, as time goes on.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657# (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657#)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 06:13:34 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      And here's a picture of U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Robert Allardice, right, and Senior Master Sgt. Dana Athnos wearing the "proposed" new USAF uniform. It was adopted when?  ;)
      (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/tmmkkt22/media/AirForceUniformESB1.jpg.html)
      http://s31.photobucket.com/user/tmmkkt22/media/AirForceUniformESB1.jpg.html (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/tmmkkt22/media/AirForceUniformESB1.jpg.html)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      I'd say the CAP lettering can go...just to keep it from looking too cheesy.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 10, 2013, 06:57:17 AM
      I like Panache's with the propeller in red too, but the "CAP" really has got to go.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657# (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657#)

      I dunno - this might be either a shop or a paper fascimile of the insingia.
      (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/file.cfm/media/news/NHQncotodd_C8A8CE882EC82.jpg)
      She was wearing standard USAF insignia at the approval signing...
      (http://media.dma.mil/2013/Oct/21/2000715968/-1/-1/0/131017-F-QZ836-022.JPG)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 10, 2013, 12:28:27 PM
      Shuman, if you would not post so much in CAPTalk your time for volunteering would increase 100%...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FW on November 10, 2013, 02:32:03 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657# (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657#)

      I dunno - this might be either a shop or a paper fascimile of the insingia.
      (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/file.cfm/media/news/NHQncotodd_C8A8CE882EC82.jpg)
      The grade insignia is real. I'm pretty sure she was wearing them at the March Command Council meeting (or at least a similar version). The wear of proposed uniform items are often "modeled" before acceptance.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657# (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657#)

      "And standing next to CMSgt Todd is LTC Schmucketelly,.... there is no difference in what they can or cant do, niether one really out ranks the other in the traditional sense,  its just that Todd thought stripes looked better than oak leaves and Schmucketelly didnt want to be an enlisted guy"
      ".....and in the background is 1Lt Smith who is actually the Squadron Commander...."
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: wuzafuzz on November 10, 2013, 04:11:39 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 05:20:47 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:17:08 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
      I just meant on the patch - which appears to be the focus of this program.

      As you always seem to point out in any ABU thread... the "proposed" rank insignia are just that, proposed. Nothing has actually been approved by National or the USAF.There may yet be room for diamonds and stars.  ;)
      Except there is a picture of CMSgt Todd already sporting the "proposed" rank insignia.

      http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657# (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657#)

      "And standing next to CMSgt Todd is LTC Schmucketelly,.... there is no difference in what they can or cant do, niether one really out ranks the other in the traditional sense,  its just that Todd thought stripes looked better than oak leaves and Schmucketelly didnt want to be an enlisted guy"
      ".....and in the background is 1Lt Smith who is actually the Squadron Commander...."
      "...and the squadron commander is wearing a polo shirt to avoid all the silliness."   >:D

      CAP senior member grade is about as useful as the points on "Whose Line Is It Anyway."  Well, perhaps a bit more useful.  CAP grade is a merit badge.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:13:29 PM
      HAAAAA...... You win 8 stripes.... just because we made eye contact.


      On a serious note..... who is CMSgt Lou Todd?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 04:18:19 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:13:29 PM
      HAAAAA...... You win 8 stripes.... just because we made eye contact.


      On a serious note..... who is CMSgt Lou Todd?

      CMSgt Todd, nรฉe Walpus, is the Command Chief Master Sergeant the Civil Air Patrol.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 04:19:41 PM
      Quote from: FW on November 10, 2013, 02:32:03 PM
      The grade insignia is real. I'm pretty sure she was wearing them at the March Command Council meeting (or at least a similar version). The wear of proposed uniform items are often "modeled" before acceptance.

      Didn't that version feature a red prop?

      Ignore, photo is below.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:27:18 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 04:18:19 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:13:29 PM
      HAAAAA...... You win 8 stripes.... just because we made eye contact.


      On a serious note..... who is CMSgt Lou Todd?

      CMSgt Todd, nรฉe Walpus, is the Command Chief Master Sergeant the Civil Air Patrol.

      Really? 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 04:36:17 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:27:18 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 04:18:19 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:13:29 PM
      HAAAAA...... You win 8 stripes.... just because we made eye contact.


      On a serious note..... who is CMSgt Lou Todd?

      CMSgt Todd, nรฉe Walpus, is the Command Chief Master Sergeant the Civil Air Patrol.

      Really?

      Since late 2011.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:52:39 PM
      Wow.... i was a Sq Commander in 2011. I had no idea CAP had a Command Chief.   Well...... you know though, I was an officer so she didnt run in my circles :) 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2013, 05:19:00 PM
      Is General Carr something made by General Motors?   ;D  OH MAN!  Wheeeeeeww :clap:.....  thank you thank you.... Ill be performing all night.

      Two drink minimum?

      Reminds me I had a SMWOG asked me one time if his uncle, the general join CAP if he could keep his star and would be like the "commanding general". He had no ideal what happens in CAP outside of Petticoat Junction Squadron.  ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 05:49:18 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:52:39 PM
      Wow.... i was a Sq Commander in 2011. I had no idea CAP had a Command Chief.   Well...... you know though, I was an officer so she didnt run in my circles :)

      I could be wrong, but I believe she was the first to be posted as such after the "unpleasantness" with her predecessor. 

      In 2008 she was listed as being a Chief from OKWG and was serving on the now-infamous uniform committee (the infamy had nothing to do with her).

      She was a signer of the Feb 2011 "knock it off" letter about trolling salutes, so her appointment must go back to at least late 2010.

      Here she is at the AFSA 50th Anniversary in Mar 2011 wearing the CAP-version of the stripes.
      (Originally posted on CT by sandman)

      (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4004/cje8.jpg)

      From the setup this appears to be a different event, or a different day.

      (http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6766/3e1m.jpg)

      You can't tell from the photos if this is the same event, but considering she's not wearing the tab-tie in the one,
      it's possible she changed her blouse with the proposed stripes just for some photos. 

      In this photo from the May, 2013 NSC she's wearing the standard USAF stripes
      (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/file.cfm/media/news/NHQstaffcoll2_E52413D06F85B.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 05:58:37 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 10, 2013, 05:07:31 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 09, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
      He thinks he is at the same level that Gen Carr is...

      Flyer

      No, but as a former NCO, like MG Carr, I think I understand his motives.

      Maybe you're all right about First Sergeants, maybe there isn't a need... now. There may be in the future.

      As an outsider looking in, I can see issues with the organization, which I'm afraid many of you in the CAPTalk Sunshine Brigade are too close to to see, or (more likely) you are part of the problem itself.

      I've never seen a bunch of greater naysayers then I have seen since coming to CAPTalk. Phrases like: "That will never happen in CAP" or "That's the way we've always done it" are all I hear here. Any suggestion for change, regardless from inside or outside of CAP, is treated like blasphemy! I've never seen a group more resistant to institutional change than you. (Except maybe the Palestinians.)

      MG Carr is going to turn CAP into an NCO driven organization and downsize the Officer Corps, which I believe the USAF wholeheartedly supports.

      I would make that steak dinner bet that a degree requirement for future officer promotion beyond 1LT, just like the Military, is coming.  ;)

      Gentlemen and Ladies!!! You are truly living in interesting times in CAP, I wish you all the very best of luck in it.

      I agree. Very good points here on many levels. Some people want CAP to be like what they think it was like in 1941, or when they were Cadets or whatever their vision is and the GOBN is strong. But I believe change is coming too and I am kind of smug on that   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      I'd say the CAP lettering can go...just to keep it from looking too cheesy.

      That looks good but the CAP is too much. The red prop lets everyone know it is CAP plus with "CAP" in the way, where would I put a diamond or a star?  8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:11:11 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 05:49:18 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 04:52:39 PM
      Wow.... i was a Sq Commander in 2011. I had no idea CAP had a Command Chief.   Well...... you know though, I was an officer so she didnt run in my circles :)

      I could be wrong, but I believe she was the first to be posted as such after the "unpleasantness" with her predecessor. 

      In 2008 she was listed as being a Chief from OKWG and was serving on the now-infamous uniform committee (the infamy had nothing to do with her).

      I thought she was the first "Command Chief of the CAP"?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:16:20 PM
      Quote from: wuzafuzz on November 10, 2013, 04:11:39 PM
      "...and the squadron commander is wearing a polo shirt to avoid all the silliness."   >:D

      Now that is true AND funny at the same time. I am getting a new polo shirt for Christmas.  :clap:
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 10, 2013, 06:16:37 PM
      Change happens in all organizations. Some for the good, some for the bad. People like the changes and stay, some do not and leave. Others do not like the changes but learn to work with them and decide to stay. Some of these start working for more changes!

      That is why I have decided not to give my opinion, one way or other in this issue.

      I was in CAP for two years 1985-1986, we had blue school buses and vans, our ROP was given by the FCC, we wore OG fatigue uniforms, could use metal grades, and wore grade on blue sleeves.

      Came back in 1996 or so, the ROP was under the NTIA, the school buses were gone, vans were to be painted white, wore BDUs, and grades were on gray sleeves or embroidered. Went away on 2005 0r 2006.

      Came back in 2011, still wore BDUs, gray sleeves, etc.

      The organization evolves and everyone adjusts in some way or other...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:19:06 PM
      Well at least you dodged the maroon epaulets   >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 06:19:23 PM
      "She was a signer of the Feb 2011 "knock it off" letter about trolling salutes, so her appointment must go back to at least late 2010."

      As an NCO why was she telling officers what to do?   In the true spirit of how this all works why is an enlisted persons signature on a document directed at officers?   I mean if we are going to do this.... then some LTC should have fired back a reply and told her to stay out of the affairs of officers and worry about the 15 enlisted people in CAP.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:20:56 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 06:19:23 PM... some LTC should have fired back a reply and told her to stay out of the affairs of officers and worry about the 15 enlisted people in CAP.

      RODL   :clap:
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 10, 2013, 07:17:07 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      I'd say the CAP lettering can go...just to keep it from looking too cheesy.

      That looks good but the CAP is too much. The red prop lets everyone know it is CAP plus with "CAP" in the way, where would I put a diamond or a star?  8)

      (dons asbestos jacket)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Garibaldi on November 10, 2013, 07:20:21 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 10, 2013, 07:17:07 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 10, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      I'd say the CAP lettering can go...just to keep it from looking too cheesy.

      That looks good but the CAP is too much. The red prop lets everyone know it is CAP plus with "CAP" in the way, where would I put a diamond or a star?  8)

      (dons asbestos jacket)

      In all seriousness, wasn't the diamond or star addressed in some release or other?

      In all non-seriousness, why not just create cloth replicas of the cadet stripes and let both SMs and cadets wear them?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 10, 2013, 07:26:15 PM
      Quote from: Garibaldi on November 10, 2013, 07:20:21 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 07, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
      My suggestion.  An update to usafaux2004's previous work... 

      (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z165/Xoxotl/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Xoxotl/media/CAP/NewCAPNCO.png.html)

      In all seriousness, wasn't the diamond or star addressed in some release or other?
      I think it's been "addressed" in the way First Sergeants / Command Chief Master Sergeants were most definitely not mentioned in the proposal, which would lead one to believe those positions were not being created.

      Quote from: Garibaldi on November 10, 2013, 07:20:21 PM
      In all non-seriousness, why not just create cloth replicas of the cadet stripes and let both SMs and cadets wear them?
      Nah.  I can see that leading to confusion.

      For what it's worth, I agree with most others here, I think it looks better without the "CAP" in the blue field.  But I don't think Ma Blue would like that idea too much for the SNCOs.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 10, 2013, 11:28:00 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 10, 2013, 06:19:23 PM
      "She was a signer of the Feb 2011 "knock it off" letter about trolling salutes, so her appointment must go back to at least late 2010."

      As an NCO why was she telling officers what to do?   In the true spirit of how this all works why is an enlisted persons signature on a document directed at officers?   I mean if we are going to do this.... then some LTC should have fired back a reply and told her to stay out of the affairs of officers and worry about the 15 enlisted people in CAP.

      Well one could wonder why there was a need to tell some Officers not to troll for salutes, also it would seem that their fellow officers were not able to control the knuckleheads while maintaining "Officer Affairs". If a LTC were to do that then it would seem that there is a buy at higher levels for stupid behavior. Anyone should be able to put a stop to unauthorized or illegal behavior regardless of rank. Some officers  need to pull the stick out of their fourth points of contact. Just saying.......
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2013, 11:56:08 PM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 10, 2013, 11:28:00 PMWell one could wonder why there was a need to tell some Officers not to troll for salutes,

      Because someone tool a troll on anther forum seriously.

      Wives tale.

      Period.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing, sometimes there is a grain of truth even in something unbelievable. Either way all organizations need to police themselves first before it becomes a problem.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 12:20:04 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 10, 2013, 12:28:27 PM
      Shuman, if you would not post so much in CAPTalk your time for volunteering would increase 100%...

      Flyer

      Actually no. I work the midnight turn 6p-6a manning an isolated gatehouse... CAPTalk is how I stay awake and alert in the wee hours of the morning.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 12:56:24 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing

      Then they should knock it off.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 11, 2013, 01:18:24 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing, sometimes there is a grain of truth even in something unbelievable. Either way all organizations need to police themselves first before it becomes a problem.

      That's what happens when enlisted folk run amuck without officer supervision.  They start rumors and try to make us officers look bad.   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 11, 2013, 01:51:32 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing, sometimes there is a grain of truth even in something unbelievable. Either way all organizations need to police themselves first before it becomes a problem.


      I suppose, much like PAWG uniform combinations it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy 40 some odd years later.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 01:52:53 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 11, 2013, 01:18:24 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing, sometimes there is a grain of truth even in something unbelievable. Either way all organizations need to police themselves first before it becomes a problem.

      That's what happens when enlisted folk run amuck without officer supervision.  They start rumors and try to make us officers look bad.

      From what I have seen I don't think that some officers need help in that department. :)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 01:54:47 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 12:56:24 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing

      Then they should knock it off.

      I believe there is a memo about "Knocking it off" :)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 02:36:18 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 01:52:53 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 11, 2013, 01:18:24 AM
      Quote from: DennisH on November 11, 2013, 12:00:49 AM
      Well that wives tale is told in my squadron and at Wing, sometimes there is a grain of truth even in something unbelievable. Either way all organizations need to police themselves first before it becomes a problem.

      That's what happens when enlisted folk run amuck without officer supervision.  They start rumors and try to make us officers look bad.

      From what I have seen I don't think that some officers need help in that department. :)
      Based on much of what I've read here... I concur.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 11, 2013, 04:18:34 AM
      I found the memo that Sgt Todd signed in another thread of this forum.

      She co-signed the memo. In other words, the memo was signed by another person. Amy Coulter [sic] in her role as National Commander of CAP.

      So there is no way that any LTC could have written Sgt Todd to "mind her business" without hitting the National Commander as well...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Al Sayre on November 11, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
      Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 11, 2013, 04:18:34 AM
      I found the memo that Sgt Todd signed in another thread of this forum.

      She co-signed the memo. In other words, the memo was signed by another person. Amy Coulter [sic] in her role as National Commander of CAP.

      So there is no way that any LTC could have written Sgt Todd to "mind her business" without hitting the National Commander as well...

      Flyer

      That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

      And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.  :o

      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: winterg on November 11, 2013, 04:59:24 AM
      As I understand it, correct me if I read it wrong, the new CAP NCO program is only open to those members who have held the rank of E-5 or above in the military.  I guess it is experienced NCOs they want?  So, with a money order and a heartbeat you can be an officer, but to wear stripes you must have served in the military and earned your stripes.  Is it me or does this seem like a greater value is placed on one over the other?

      This statement in the Nov. 8th press release makes me think it might be open for non military NCOs at a later date maybe?  "For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 โ€“ staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant โ€“ in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard."  (Emphasis mine)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 05:01:22 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 11, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
      Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?

      I think somewhere back in the teens or early twenties someone posted the number 80 active CAP NCOs, they didn't give a breakdown of ranks or which Branch of Service they came from.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      That doesn't prove anything.  To this day it's still "common knowledge" that they put saltpeter into the food of enlisted trainees to curb their libido, or that it takes seven years for chewing gum to work its way through a person's digestive track.

      Hell, polls taken in various locations have shown that between 6% and 20% of Americans surveyed believe that the manned moon landings were faked.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:08:27 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AMAnd please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

      They believed a troll post on a military forum.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

      No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
      the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
      indicative of the services as a whole.
       
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      Quote from: winterg on November 11, 2013, 04:59:24 AM
      As I understand it, correct me if I read it wrong, the new CAP NCO program is only open to those members who have held the rank of E-5 or above in the military.  I guess it is experienced NCOs they want?  So, with a money order and a heartbeat you can be an officer, but to wear stripes you must have served in the military and earned your stripes.  Is it me or does this seem like a greater value is placed on one over the other?

      This statement in the Nov. 8th press release makes me think it might be open for non military NCOs at a later date maybe?  "For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 โ€“ staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant โ€“ in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard."  (Emphasis mine)

      Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

      Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 05:13:56 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:08:27 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AMAnd please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

      They believed a troll post on a military forum.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

      No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
      the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
      indicative of the services as a whole.


      In your opinion. An official memo issued by the General Officer Commanding and the Command CMSgt says something entirely different.  ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:15:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Sliming?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 05:43:38 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

      Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Pure speculation.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 11, 2013, 05:57:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:13:56 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:08:27 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AMAnd please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

      They believed a troll post on a military forum.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

      No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
      the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
      indicative of the services as a whole.


      In your opinion. An official memo issued by the General Officer Commanding and the Command CMSgt says something entirely different.  ::)

      IIRC, the memo was about ONE case in AZ, and had nothing to do with saluting. The goober should have been dealt with locally, and that's that. Anyone else feel Shumans true troll is turning on afterburners?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 06:20:37 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:15:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Sliming?

      I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

      All new Senior Members without degrees will be tracked into the NCO professional development lane. Over time this will reduce the number of officers  by regular retirements and resignations and lest new officers to replace them; in effect sliming the Officer Corps.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 11, 2013, 06:21:15 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2013, 05:57:34 AMAnyone else feel Shumans true troll is turning on afterburners?
      Or at least running up the post count for fun?
      It's quite easy to post one message with all your replies.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 06:23:32 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 05:43:38 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

      Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Pure speculation.

      No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk.  ;)

      But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 06:26:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 06:23:32 AM
      No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk.  ;)

      But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense.  ;)

      And how do you figure that this is the ultimate goal? This org has been running well outside of a few things without requiring volunteers to have a degree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 06:20:37 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:15:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Sliming?

      I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 07:09:13 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 06:26:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 06:23:32 AM
      No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk.  ;)

      But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense.  ;)

      And how do you figure that this is the ultimate goal? This org has been running well outside of a few things without requiring volunteers to have a degree.

      Basic alignment with the Military.

      Look it's a simple fact of life in America today that the BS/BA degree is the high school diploma of 30 years ago. Do cops, firemen, secretaries need a degree to do their jobs? No... but with the unemployment rates being what they are everyone is requiring a degree to even get an interview, they want the highest qualified candidates they can find and with the huge available labor pool, employers can be picky and highly selective.

      Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

      So when a CAP Captain walks into an EOC they want a physically fit, educated, and competent officer that reflects on them well.

      Primary reason for requiring a certain height/weight standard to wear the USAF uniform, so at least you "appear" to meet that physically fit standard.  ;)

      You'll soon see that "educated" standard also put into place.

      People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

      Requiring a degree for CAP officers, at least for promotion to CPT or higher, is just a sign of the times and is in alignment with what the Military requires today.

      I suspect that won't be the only change, I suspect the degree requirement is just one of them.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 07:22:40 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

      That's the completely wrong attitude to have.  Your work isn't devalued in the least. For all intents and purposes its more like a uniform change.

      As many have pointed out here, CAP rank is meaningless, you have LTs commanding CPTs and MAJs and LTCs that make coffee.

      The work itself will not change, just one form of recognition (rank) will be changed.

      Also, when you say "If I can't wear X" or "If I can't do Y" "then I'm not coming!" Then you really need to ask yourself what are your reasons for volunteering in the first place?

      So, are you in CAP to make a difference and make America better... or are you in CAP to wear a rank? :-\
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 07:23:24 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 06:20:37 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:15:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Sliming?

      I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

      All new Senior Members without degrees will be tracked into the NCO professional development lane. Over time this will reduce the number of officers  by regular retirements and resignations and lest new officers to replace them; in effect sliming the Officer Corps.

      Outside speculation by someone who has no real concept of how CAP operates at all.

      Your "idea" would kill the organization, plain and simple.

      It is simply not possible for CAP to even handle a requirement like that, nor is it even beneficial for this organization.

      CAP operates very by and large on the nicety of the volunteers. Hand a mid-career CAP officer a "do not pass go do not collect next promotion" card, and he will turn right around and hand you his membership card and a "good luck with all that crazy &$@$".

      Just a quick (from memory) survey of my current wings leadership is, the CC the CV and the COS are all retired people clocking 40 plus hours a week into a wing in CAP. None of them have a 4 year degree. So, you just stripped 75 combined years worth of CAP experience from CAP because they didn't go to a university and instead became firefighter(CC), police officer (CV), and business owner (COS) instead. Ya, those professions are not fit to lead without that sheet of paper from middle of nowhere university in backhanded basket weaving with a minor in front handed bucket making...  ::) ???

      Make it overly complicated to volunteer and you will lose people. Place a crazy requirement like a 4 year degree for work that does not even provide a pay check and you can kiss it goodbye.

       
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:09:13 AM
      Basic alignment with the Military.

      Look it's a simple fact of life in America today that the BS/BA degree is the high school diploma of 30 years ago. Do cops, firemen, secretaries need a degree to do their jobs? No... but with the unemployment rates being what they are everyone is requiring a degree to even get an interview, they want the highest qualified candidates they can find and with the huge available labor pool, employers can be picky and highly selective.

      Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

      So when a CAP Captain walks into an EOC they want a physically fit, educated, and competent officer that reflects on them well.

      Primary reason for requiring a certain height/weight standard to wear the USAF uniform, so at least you "appear" to meet that physically fit standard.  ;)

      You'll soon see that "educated" standard also put into place.

      People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

      Requiring a degree for CAP officers, at least for promotion to CPT or higher, is just a sign of the times and is in alignment with what the Military requires today.

      I suspect that won't be the only change, I suspect the degree requirement is just one of them.

      Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

      I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
      NCRBlues,

      It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

      New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

      And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

      So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

      If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

      If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
      Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

      I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties.

      True, but an educated guess, based on what I would do if I was in charge.

      If you have no reason to align, then why do you wear a military style uniform and use military ranks?  :-\

      maybe you'd prefer to use pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers as rank insignia, then you'd clearly not be aligned with the military.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 08:09:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
      True, but an educated guess,

      That's actually pretty funny...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 11, 2013, 08:13:14 AM
      Ahhh. My nightly ray of Sunshine.

      Thank you Eclipse.  :)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
      Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

      I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties.

      True, but an educated guess, based on what I would do if I was in charge.

      If you have no reason to align, then why do you wear a military style uniform and use military ranks?  :-\

      maybe you'd prefer to use pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers as rank insignia, then you'd clearly not be aligned with the military.  ;)

      But you are not in charge and this is not something that the Nat CC can do without the approval of the BoG. 

      There is no reason to align as that is not in the constitution by laws or in the AFI's that govern CAP or in the CAPRs.   And hate to break it to you but your "educated" guess is pure speculation plain and simple.  There is not enough information on this to substantiate your guess.  Plain and simple there is hardly any real info on it at all that has been released.  And honestly if and if it was to go the way you speculate then there would be a mass exodus of members to include some very senior members at wing level and above.

      Hate to say it but having a degree does not make you better than anyone else. And there are plenty of people with degrees who are unemployed right now.  I think you need to step back and let this go forth, and quit speculating as to the direction that it is going in.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 08:45:23 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:09:13 AM
      People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

      I'll pass that along to the 33 people in the department whom I manage.  I'm sure they'll find it funny.

      For what it's worth, when I'm interviewing prospective employees for hiring or promotion, the first thing I look at is experience and acquired skill-set, as well as job performance.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:22:40 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

      That's the completely wrong attitude to have.  Your work isn't devalued in the least.

      By telling me that I will no longer be allowed to advance forward in the program because I don't have a college degree?  Sounds a lot like I'm being disenfranchised to me.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:22:40 AM
      So, are you in CAP to make a difference and make America better... or are you in CAP to wear a rank? :-\

      Thank you for telling me what I should or shouldn't find important.

      Grade is a sign of advancement in the professional development program.  Part of the reason I'm in CAP is to improve myself.   If I'm being prevented from doing that, then a large part of my reason to be in CAP is gone as well.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 11, 2013, 08:45:41 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 11, 2013, 04:18:34 AM
      I found the memo that Sgt Todd signed in another thread of this forum.

      She co-signed the memo. In other words, the memo was signed by another person. Amy Coulter [sic] in her role as National Commander of CAP.

      So there is no way that any LTC could have written Sgt Todd to "mind her business" without hitting the National Commander as well...

      Flyer

      That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

      And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.  :o

      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.



      The story (singular) that prompted issuance of the letter from the National CC and Command Chief was jet-fueled via posting the original USAF NCO complaint at "Air Force Times," followed by a lot of online traffic comments. Given the publicity, it was impossible to let it die away and I believe it proper to defuse the matter by issuing the letter. If an organization doesn't deliver it's desired message, then public opinion will create one on the organization's behalf and nobody needs that. So, message written, signed, delivered, done.

      I have been a CAP officer for a long time, both as a Senior Member and as a cadet. Which means I have been saluted by members of the US Armed Forces, as well as by members of at least 5-6 Allied armed forces. In most cases, it was a matter of the "saluters" simply covering the bases, not quite sure of who/what I was. But, in more than a few, quite a lot, actually, the "saluters" knew full well who and/or what I was. While not obligated to do so, they chose to do so. I perceived that as a dual honor, both personal and to my organization.

      Not once, since 1970, when I first pinned on an officerish looking insignia, have I even as much as thought of getting into my costume and "hanging out at the BX, trolling for salutes," as it is often described. And....i haven't known any CAP officers who have done that.

      I have engaged in conversations with military people about this in social situations. Interestingly, their spouses seem to be more interested in the topic. And it usually runs something like this: "You know, we're not required to salute you." (One complaint that many CAP officers have is that USAF does very little to educate their members about the role, responsibilities and benefits of their Auxiliary. Yet, somehow, the "don't have to" thing seems to be clearly understood). My response to that is "You're right. You don't have to." It wasn't an issue for me at all. Nor for any CAP people I knew. And, we certainly weren't the ones bringing it up.

      Here's where I think many, if not most, of the "trolling for salutes" accusations originate - in the mind of the beholder.

      Try this - I'm on a USAF base for 10-14 days. Sort of like Reserve Component people on AT, it's my home for a while. Except, I took vacation to be there. And I'm paying to stay and eat there. Now, I need to stop by and get some shoe polish. Yeah, I brought my own, but a couple of cadets need some and they don't have a chance to get to the BX. As I approach the door, comes a USAF TSgt and Ssgt. They both salute, out of reflex, most likely. I return the salute and say good morning. It's done. Over. Nobody was harmed. No honor was tarnished.

      Two of us go back later in the day, or the next day. We missed lunch at the dining facility. Figure we can pick up a hamburger at the BX and get a bottle of shampoo that my buddy forgot to bring. We run into the same SSgt as yesterday, this time with a MSgt. SSgt salutes, we both return it and keep going. MSgt didn't salute. And then proceeds to tell the SSgt "we don't have to..." etc. Again, no harm done anywhere.

      But that SSgt hunts up the TSgt from the earlier episode and says "Hey, remember that officer we saw outside the BX, the one with the blue tapes/unusual wings (or whatever)? Turns out he was a CIVILIAN. We don't HAVE to salute them.... And the TSgt feels...I don't know. Punked?

      Now, when TSgt tells the story, for story purposes, he can't be a chump. The story has to change just a wee bit. And I think that's how a lot of trolling stories get started.

      I've noticed common denominators in a lot of salute trolling stories. Enough to cause me to say that there is either incredible coincidence at play, almost at a conspiracy level, or enough to convince me that the stories are apocryphal.

      Many/most such stories include a CAP character who is either a captain or a major. Most of the stories involve a "stop."  In other words, not a passing-by comment, but a situation where the CAP officer stops and makes the military person stop. Then comes a "lecture."  And, the lecture is almost eerily similar in a huge number of stories. It usually starts out with....the CAP person pointing to his/her grade/rank insignia and saying..."See this oak leaf/these bars? They mean that I'm an officer. You have to salute me." Ultimately, the CAP person is painted as a pompous and obnoxious buffoon. Then the story gets told.

      Sorry, I've been hearing that story since 1967. If there was a guy, or an underground movement, hanging out at BXs since then, stopping USAF sergeants, pointing at leaves and bars, demanding salutes, I have to believe that most are dead or retired by now.

      In short - this is nowhere close to being a real problem. It's just a perennial boogeyman or Sasquatch story that won't go away, fueled by people who claim to have seen the boogeyman or Sasquatch.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 11, 2013, 08:59:45 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 11, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
      Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?

      I haven't seen anything, and it doesn't appear to be something easily done. There's nothing in eServices that indicates former mil service, and NHQ doesn't really have the time or staffing to pull it off the F12s.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 09:13:42 AM
      Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on November 11, 2013, 08:45:41 AM
      In short - this is nowhere close to being a real problem. It's just a perennial boogeyman or Sasquatch story that won't go away, fueled by people who claim to have seen the boogeyman or Sasquatch.

      The only time I've been saluted by USAF personnel as a CAP member was when I was a 18-year-old senior member wearing Flight Officer shoulder marks.  I was wearing grade insignia the Air Force doesn't even have but I got the salute.

      I was slow in returning it because I wasn't expecting it.  And I told them so.  "Sorry gentlemen, I'm Civil Air Patrol so you caught me by surprise there."  They laughed and said they understood and went on their way.

      When I was in the Army, I honestly saluted anybody that had shiny on their garrison cap (this was before the black berets for everybody).  I didn't even look at grade.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 11:21:37 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:09:13 AM
      Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

      As the USAF will be holding CAP officers to the same standard, I wonder when they'll start paying them a wage.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 11, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
      I don't think speculation is at all out of order regarding the potential entry of NPS folks into CAP NCO ranks since the materials we have seen clearly indicate that it is a possibility.  That being the case and with no further information provided  you can't really blame folks for it.  However, starting to guess that it means that officers will have to have college degrees is a ridiculous stretch based on what we know now. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:42:35 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

      And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.  :o

      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

      In my combined 26 years of CAP and USAF experience, assigned to 3 different CAP wings and 9 different military installations, I've never seen anyone displaying this kind of behavior. Has it ever happened? Probably. Does it happen enough to be a systemic problem in CAP? Absolutely not.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 06:20:37 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:15:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
      It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

      Sliming?

      I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
      ^ Statements like that don't trivialize anything, unless you take them personally.

      The only thing anyone should care about is what specific level of education is necessary to be successful in CAP, anything else is irrelevant.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 05:40:53 PM
      ^ That's funny coming from someone who's always criticizing those who do CAP PD courses (RSC, NSC, etc.) through alternate methods.

      I'm not taking it personally; my degree is aeronautics. Is it relevant to CAP? Well, it depends. It may be somewhat relevant to aerospace education, but it's not necessarily relevant to my abilities or accomplishments as a CAP officer. That's why in general I don't support CAP requiring its members to have college degrees (they already do that for the National Commander and certain specialized positions).

      But college education is not just about having "a piece of paper". I work with many smart and talented engineers that would disagree with that assertion made by many on this board. Criticizing other people's accomplishments just because you don't have them is not conducive to anything. It goes against our core value of "respect", which >IS< relevant to being a good and successful CAP officer.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)

      For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      But, yeah, there are... other degrees (http://www.uaf.edu/catalog/catalog_13-14/programs/pdf/bachelors-degree/womyn.pdf) that I do mean to trivialize.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      Agree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 05:40:53 PM
      ^ That's funny coming from someone who's always criticizing those who do CAP PD courses (RSC, NSC, etc.) through alternate methods.

      I'm not sure why that's funny - the optimum way to complete these is the in-face, residential courses.  Anything else just checks the box and provides
      nothing in regards to the information needed in a CAP context, nor the networking than can be vital to CAP success.

      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 05:40:53 PMBut college education is not just about having "a piece of paper". I work with many smart and talented engineers that would disagree with that assertion made by many on this board. Criticizing other people's accomplishments just because you don't have them is not conducive to anything. It goes against our core value of "respect", which >IS< relevant to being a good and successful CAP officer.

      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      The only time the discussion regarding degrees comes up is when assertions are made that they have some sort of "force-power-weight" in a volunteer environment like CAP.
      They really don't.  Being "educated" and "informed" is important, "degreed" is imply one path and must be viewed in context in order for its value to be judged outside the
      personal accomplishment of the individual.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NIN on November 11, 2013, 05:57:16 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 09:13:42 AM
      When I was in the Army, I honestly saluted anybody that had shiny on their garrison cap (this was before the black berets for everybody).  I didn't even look at grade.

      I got treated like an officer on the Terrazzo at the Academy once while wearing my enlisted (SP4) Class A's.  I had to pull these 3-degrees aside and give them a block of instruction on Army enlisted grade.  They're all madly flipping thru their copies of Contrails going "OK, ok, so _thats_ a Spec 4.. whats a Spec 5?"

      Wasn't trolling, they saw the shiny DUIs in the center of my epaulets and did the "when in doubt." :)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: 68w20 on November 11, 2013, 06:04:16 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)

      For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      But, yeah, there are... other degrees (http://www.uaf.edu/catalog/catalog_13-14/programs/pdf/bachelors-degree/womyn.pdf) that I do mean to trivialize.

      That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 06:04:16 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)

      For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      But, yeah, there are... other degrees (http://www.uaf.edu/catalog/catalog_13-14/programs/pdf/bachelors-degree/womyn.pdf) that I do mean to trivialize.

      That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

      Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go (http://southernct.edu/academics/schools/arts/departments/womensstudies/index.html/mastersdegree/).  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

      Look, I've agreed with you in many issues here in CAP Talk. I think you're smart and experienced and respect your opinions. But just because you believe something, it doesn't make it correct all the time. You need to learn to really listen to others and not automatically assume they're wrong just because you believe something else.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 11, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 06:04:16 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)

      For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      But, yeah, there are... other degrees (http://www.uaf.edu/catalog/catalog_13-14/programs/pdf/bachelors-degree/womyn.pdf) that I do mean to trivialize.

      That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

      Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go (http://southernct.edu/academics/schools/arts/departments/womensstudies/index.html/mastersdegree/).  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.

      QuoteFor application materials for the Master of Arts degree in Women's Studies,  (http://southernct.edu/womensstudies/uploads/textWidget/wysiwyg/documents/application_grad_program_wms.pdf)please click here. (http://southernct.edu/womensstudies/uploads/textWidget/wysiwyg/documents/application_grad_program_wms.pdf) For application materials for the undergraduate minor in Women's Studies, please click here. (http://southernct.edu/academics/schools/arts/departments/womensstudies/%21%21%21GS_SITE_6%21%21%21/departments/womensstudies/undergrad/index.htm)

      I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

      Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

      If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RogueLeader on November 11, 2013, 06:32:32 PM
      I'm concerned on how a unit below Wing is not allowed a CMSgt, but a Flight is able to be commanded by a SNCO when there are no Officers assigned.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 06:47:03 PM
      Quote from: RogueLeader on November 11, 2013, 06:32:32 PM
      I'm concerned on how a unit below Wing is not allowed a CMSgt, but a Flight is able to be commanded by a SNCO when there are no Officers assigned.

      (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QWWMt9EIYGY/UYh2TDoTjcI/AAAAAAAACBc/OjfEmjyi2EU/s1600/magic+meme.gif)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Larry Mangum on November 11, 2013, 06:49:11 PM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 06:01:54 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 09, 2013, 03:53:12 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 09, 2013, 03:32:28 AM
      No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

      Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

      You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course.

      Yes, Sir I understand that Air Patrol members come from all types of backgrounds and it's for that very reason that we have commonality in training. Since we are all from different backgrounds it's the training that makes us similar so we can operate as a team. You state "that OBC is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt" while CAPR 35-5 states that all that is needed for promotion to 1Lt is 12months time in grade and a Specialty track Tech Rating; one has to have the OBC to complete Level 2 training and promote to Captain. So a member does not need any Officer training until they go for Captain and have been an Officer for 3 are more years. Can you think of any other corporation that would place someone into a leadership/management position for three or more years without any management training? I can agree with you about leadership being an art form but even art can be taught.   In regards to the NCO Corps I am not sure what type of training they will be offered for a PME or CDC but CAP has stated that the NCO "corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs" and if this is the case I am sure they will be given supervisory and management training at least.  I am just very curious about how CAP plans to implement this new NCO program and can barely wait until they come out with the new regs.

      Capt Lowery, last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:56:55 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

      Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

      If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.

      Actually, I'm one of the few on this board that does like you, although I think you could tone down the attitude from time to time.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 11, 2013, 07:00:17 PM
      Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 11, 2013, 06:49:11 PM..last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.
      Ouch.

      OTOH, -lack of participation- can certainly be an indicator that change might be in order. Depending on the scenario, of course.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: 68w20 on November 11, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 06:04:16 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 04:55:13 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

      While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles".  ;)

      For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

      But, yeah, there are... other degrees (http://www.uaf.edu/catalog/catalog_13-14/programs/pdf/bachelors-degree/womyn.pdf) that I do mean to trivialize.

      That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

      Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go (http://southernct.edu/academics/schools/arts/departments/womensstudies/index.html/mastersdegree/).  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.

      QuoteFor application materials for the Master of Arts degree in Women's Studies,  (http://southernct.edu/womensstudies/uploads/textWidget/wysiwyg/documents/application_grad_program_wms.pdf)please click here. (http://southernct.edu/womensstudies/uploads/textWidget/wysiwyg/documents/application_grad_program_wms.pdf) For application materials for the undergraduate minor in Women's Studies, please click here. (http://southernct.edu/academics/schools/arts/departments/womensstudies/%21%21%21GS_SITE_6%21%21%21/departments/womensstudies/undergrad/index.htm)

      I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...

      (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72257&d=1379923900)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 07:05:28 PM
      Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 11, 2013, 06:49:11 PM
      Capt Lowery, last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.

      That'll leave a mark in the morning.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 11, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
      (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72257&d=1379923900)

      I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google (https://www.universities.com/edu/Bachelor_degrees_in_Womens_Studies.html).

      I guess they don't teach that in college.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 07:47:56 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
      NCRBlues,

      It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

      New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

      And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

      So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

      If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

      If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

      As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

      Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

      Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

      And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

      You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 07:47:56 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
      NCRBlues,

      It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

      New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

      And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

      So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

      If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

      If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

      As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

      Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

      Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

      And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

      You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: 68w20 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:25 PM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 07:47:56 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
      NCRBlues,

      It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

      New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

      And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

      So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

      If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

      If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

      As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

      Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

      Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

      And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

      You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Panache was right, I should have waited to use that one...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 11, 2013, 08:14:57 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
      (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72257&d=1379923900)

      I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google (https://www.universities.com/edu/Bachelor_degrees_in_Womens_Studies.html).

      I guess they don't teach that in college.

      They taught me to "not believe everything on the internet" and to "check my sources".

      The issue isn't whether such degrees exist - they do. So do African Studies.

      But in your rush to "prove a point" you seem to have missed "the point". Those are degrees to "enrich yourself" as stated earlier. No one expects to make any money (or at least I hope they don't) with a degree like that. And as stated somewhere much earlier...good luck getting a commission with one of those in the RM. So what makes you think, even if CAP DID require a degree, they wouldn't also outline what kind of degrees they are looking for?

      Somehow, because you seem to have a need to prove a degree is worthless, you pull out a worthless degree out of the pile. Why not pull out Journalism? Or maybe pull out some media degree that will be obsolete in 10-20 years? Not all degrees are equal, but a VERY big amount of degrees are a certain step above GED/HS Diploma. I don't see many people asking why they can't be HSOs in CAP, even though they are volunteers, but aren't doctors or nurses. I don't see anyone ripping on THEIR degrees, because I suppose people without degrees have resigned themselves to respecting those people, who at times can save lives?

      I got a worthless degree. A Finance degree. The work I do doesn't really cross much with it. But I learned A LOT about business taking all of those "other" business classes that aren't part of the core of my major. But then there might be someone else, who went into a direct finance field, and the degree helped them. Or there's my wife who got her job due to the school she went to and degree she earned, but only peripherally uses the degree at work. A Doctor who isn't a doctor could call his Medical degree useless as well. Doesn't make it so, in general.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 11, 2013, 08:15:08 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM


      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

      umm WOW!....  In theory its only a title change, the PD looks to me like its pretty much the same thing.  I am not sure how that suddenly devalued your work and effort?  Because you cant tell people you are a CAPT/MAJ/LTC in the USAF... auxillary?......

      I dont know how long you have been a member of the organization, but this would not be the first seemingly ridiculous change/requirement to come up that has had people threatening to leave in such epic proportions as to lay waste to the membership levels

      Berry Boards
      Orange Hard hats and vests
      fingerprints/background checks
      CPPT
      no push ups
      Only vans

      Im am sure there are more (many more) and yet CAP still exists.....

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 11, 2013, 09:00:02 PM
      all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

      Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: TexasCadet on November 11, 2013, 09:04:37 PM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 11, 2013, 09:00:02 PM
      all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

      Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.



      To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 11, 2013, 09:08:45 PM
      Quote from: TexasCadet on November 11, 2013, 09:04:37 PM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 11, 2013, 09:00:02 PM
      all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

      Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.



      To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?

      No
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 11, 2013, 09:12:18 PM
      Quote from: TexasCadet on November 11, 2013, 09:04:37 PM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 11, 2013, 09:00:02 PM
      all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

      Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.



      To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?

      No, You are a technical expert in some field.  If you wanted to be a helicopter pilot you could join the Army, go to basic training, followed by Warrant Officer Candidate School, and Warrant Officer Flight Training.  No College required. Just a High school diploma.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 09:15:12 PM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM


      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      I am typing responses on my cell at work, and thanks to the wonderful autocorrect, it changes things automagically.

      My apologies that to and too confused your brain cells. I know it is hard to go through the day and have little or no control, they have meetings for that, care to come with me?

      I also enjoy the insinuation that people with a graduate degree can not make simple grammatical errors. I'm quite sure cap shut down because I posted to in the place of too... ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 11, 2013, 09:23:15 PM
      I am not feeling the warrant/flight officer ranks as an option:  If the theory is USAF driven/approved to shape CAP similar to the USAF rank structure, putting most members at a rank that the USAF doesn't have anymore is not in line with that.

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 11, 2013, 09:27:03 PM
      But the AF DOES have them. They just stopped appointing people into those ranks. Sounds like maybe they should for the drone pilots...might increase their candidate pool.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 11, 2013, 10:16:23 PM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 11, 2013, 09:23:15 PM
      I am not feeling the warrant/flight officer ranks as an option:  If the theory is USAF driven/approved to shape CAP similar to the USAF rank structure, putting most members at a rank that the USAF doesn't have anymore is not in line with that.

      mk

      While I agree that having warrant officers is not in keeping with the Air Force vision for the Air Force. The Air Force has deemed the Civil Air Patrol structure that Flight Officers are okay and that's why we still them for senior members under 21. 

      I think that as a Civilian Auxiliary of the Air Force that we don't really need the grade.  However that goes against the grain of our tradition since our inception so I accept it.

      I think that since it is our tradition that we do have grade as an incentive for various reasons that we could expand using an NCO, Flight officer or Warrant officer program and use rank in the manner which is typically implies meaning Authority or responsibility.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 10:23:37 PM
      TSgts and WO's would be wholly appropriate for our specialists who do not want supervisory authority like Aircrew and ES operators.  "Specialists" as NIN alluded
      would as well.

      But the majority of the memberships is at least double-billeted, if not moreso, which means that model is basically broken ni a month when everyone takes the
      time to do all the paperwork.

      We simply do not have the manpower (by 2/3rds or more) to allow for a vertical grade structure which is tied to authority, and that doesn't even include the
      "up or out" conversation.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: TexasCadet on November 11, 2013, 10:31:44 PM
      Quote

      TSgts and WO's would be wholly appropriate for our specialists who do not want supervisory authority like Aircrew and ES operators.  "Specialists" as NIN alluded
      would as well.


      Support Positions: Specialist 4 - Specialist 7, 8, or 9; Warrant Officer 1 - Chief Warrant Officer 5
      Command Positions: SSgt - CMSgt
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 11, 2013, 10:40:08 PM
      I hate to mention it, but Warrants are not commanded by NCO's..
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 10:41:46 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2013, 09:27:03 PM
      But the AF DOES have them. They just stopped appointing people into those ranks. Sounds like maybe they should for the drone pilots...might increase their candidate pool.

      No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 11:51:32 PM
      A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

      CAP officers can then focus on command and directing staff functions. This would take time and, as Eclipse has said before, would required more people. We're definitely not set up for that right now, but it's certainly possible to do it in the future.

      As an example, we have 60 senior members in my squadron and 34 of them are assigned to duty positions. And while some of the other members are not quite active, we have many active members that just want to be ES operators (aircrew, ground team, etc.) or help out without being staff officers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FlyTiger77 on November 12, 2013, 12:03:44 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 11:51:32 PM
      A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

      Exactly how is this different from what we have now? We have many members who opt to be an "ES operator or specialist" with absolutely no desire to command. Why do we need different insignia to denote that decision?

      I could do my current CAP job just as easily as a 2d Lt as I can at my current rank. If I have to "pull rank" in a volunteer organization, I have already lost.

      (Full disclosure: I have only read the previous 700+ responses on this thread sporadically, so my point has probably been made numerous times already.)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 12, 2013, 12:15:46 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 10:41:46 PM
      No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.

      Further back than 15 years...and they are still authorised on paper.

      Air Force

      The United States Air Force no longer employs warrant officers.

      The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the U.S. Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "supergrades" could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level, although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.

      The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Since then, the U.S. Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used. The W-5 grade was authorized by Congress for use by the Air Force along with the other armed forces, but was never used.


      http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm (http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm)

      I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:17:28 AM
      Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 12, 2013, 12:03:44 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 11:51:32 PM
      A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

      Exactly how is this different from what we have now? We have many members who opt to be an "ES operator or specialist" with absolutely no desire to command. Why do we need different insignia to denote that decision?

      I could do my current CAP job just as easily as a 2d Lt as I can at my current rank. If I have to "pull rank" in a volunteer organization, I have already lost.

      (Full disclosure: I have only read the previous 700+ responses on this thread sporadically, so my point has probably been made numerous times already.)

      The difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience. In addition, units get evaluated on how many members progress through the PD program. An alternate program could potentially alleviate that.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 12, 2013, 12:27:49 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 12, 2013, 12:15:46 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 11, 2013, 10:41:46 PM
      No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.

      Further back than 15 years...and they are still authorised on paper.

      Air Force

      The United States Air Force no longer employs warrant officers.

      The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the U.S. Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "supergrades" could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level, although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.

      The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Since then, the U.S. Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used. The W-5 grade was authorized by Congress for use by the Air Force along with the other armed forces, but was never used.


      http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm (http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm)

      I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

      There have been no W/O in the AF since the 60's.  Irregardless of whether they are authorized or not there are none in the AF and haven't been in decades.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 12:45:12 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:17:28 AMThe difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience.

      If they only want to be ES operators, they don't need to progress in the program, and frankly, if they don't want the responsibility, why should they get promoted.
      Rarely in real life do you get promoted for just doing your job well - it requires additional responsibility and increased scope.

      Just want to fly, hunt airplanes, launch rockets, or work radios without helping to keep the doors open?  Fair enough.  Thank you very much for your service.


      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:17:28 AM
      In addition, units get evaluated on how many members progress through the PD program. An alternate program could potentially alleviate that.
      Not in any way that makes a lick of difference to anyone.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:57:27 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 12:45:12 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:17:28 AMThe difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience.

      If they only want to be ES operators, they don't need to progress in the program, and frankly, if they don't want the responsibility, why should they get promoted.
      Rarely in real life do you get promoted for just doing your job well - it requires additional responsibility and increased scope.

      Just want to fly, hunt airplanes, launch rockets, or work radios without helping to keep the doors open?  Fair enough.  Thank you very much for your service.

      Most organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 01:19:40 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:57:27 AMMost organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.

      Right, but only if they are doing "more" or "extra".

      If you get hired to "pick up a box and put it over there", and you do it well and are happy as-is, they will keep you forever and appreciate you.

      You don't get more money or a title until you accept responsibility for other box movers, or track the boxes, or go out and find more boxes.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 01:33:36 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 01:19:40 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 12:57:27 AMMost organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.

      Right, but only if they are doing "more" or "extra".

      If you get hired to "pick up a box and put it over there", and you do it well and are happy as-is, they will keep you forever and appreciate you.

      You don't get more money or a title until you accept responsibility for other box movers, or track the boxes, or go out and find more boxes.

      And that's why the military has enlisted and officers. Many tech companies have pay levels for their workers (engineer 1, engineer 2, etc.) and separate tracks for managers. Government agencies have WG, GS and SES pay scales. They all have different responsibilities and opportunities for advancement. Should I go on?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 01:53:26 AM
      No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
      with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

      We can call them whatever we want, stand in a circle and salute each other like the Loyal Order of Raccoons, but it's still going to
      be the same 5 guys doing the same 15 jobs, unless we hack them off too much and then it'll be less.

      As you say, the military and industry have different compensation levels for different skillsets and experience.  CAP doesn't.  It's the same zero for everyone.

      They also have the casts system of the "doers" and the "pointers".  CAP Doesn't.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 02:11:14 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 01:53:26 AM
      No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
      with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

      Maybe nothing will ever change; or maybe it will. The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP". Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You're obviously against the proposed NCO changes and yet the National Commander and national CAP leadership decided to move forward with them. Change, for better or worse, is sometimes inevitable.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 12, 2013, 02:11:45 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
      That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

      And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.  :o

      I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

      Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

      Well you miss this one from July 1947. http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=17881.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=17881.0)

      I always thought the "salute me" thing was related to senility but since some youngsters has been accused of the same, it might be just silliness, JMHO   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 02:19:25 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 02:11:14 AM
      The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP".

      Yeah, I really can.

      Grade structure, PD, sure.  That's just deck chairs. 

      Member roles?  No way.  Not unless they start running a payroll.

      For every unit that's got enough tight and right seniors to even entertain the idea, there's one (maybe two) run by a den-mom who doesn't even understand
      the conversation, nor is she interested in it.   Right or wrong, you run those people down or out and CAP folds.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 12, 2013, 02:19:29 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2013, 06:22:55 PM

      I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...

      What about reading comprehension? I really can not believe how dumb, smart people are   8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 12, 2013, 02:26:05 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 11, 2013, 10:16:23 PMI think that as a Civilian Auxiliary of the Air Force that we don't really need the grade.  However that goes against the grain of our tradition since our inception so I accept it.

      That is a good point.  8)

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 02:35:32 AM
      I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 12, 2013, 02:37:10 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 02:35:32 AM
      I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   ;D

      You know that's right.  Other than the posts on the CAPMEMBERS.com website, I haven't seen anything through the other traditional lines of communication.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:41:39 AM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2013, 08:14:57 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 11, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
      (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=72257&d=1379923900)

      I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google (https://www.universities.com/edu/Bachelor_degrees_in_Womens_Studies.html).

      I guess they don't teach that in college.
      But in your rush to "prove a point" you seem to have missed "the point".
      [snip]
      Somehow, because you seem to have a need to prove a degree is worthless, you pull out a worthless degree out of the pile.

      Holy defensive reaction, Batman!  You're reading way, way, way too much into a throw-away comment I made.

      And as I've already stated upthread (to Storm Chaser I believe) that formal college education (and more!) is indeed a good thing for certain career paths.  I recognize that. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:43:31 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 11, 2013, 08:15:08 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM


      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

      umm WOW!....  In theory its only a title change, the PD looks to me like its pretty much the same thing.  I am not sure how that suddenly devalued your work and effort?  Because you cant tell people you are a CAPT/MAJ/LTC in the USAF... auxillary?......

      Thank you for completely ignoring the reason I stated why I would do that, and focusing on the cosmetic.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:49:53 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 12, 2013, 12:15:46 AM
      I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

      ^ This.

      The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 12, 2013, 03:17:06 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:49:53 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 12, 2013, 12:15:46 AM
      I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

      ^ This.

      The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.

      I think your interpretation of those who should hold those grades is too restrictive.  Technically, Command Positions are those holding the Title of Commander or Deputy/Vice Commander.  This would not include positions like the Wing Chief of Staff, or the Directors on the wing staff.  These positions can wield a lot of authority and responsibility that are totally deserving of the grade that reflects that position.  But, Of course, that's only when grade indicates what it implies, which we don't have under our current Professional Development system.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: FW on November 12, 2013, 03:38:00 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 02:11:14 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 01:53:26 AM
      No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
      with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

      Maybe nothing will ever change; or maybe it will. The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP". Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You're obviously against the proposed NCO changes and yet the National Commander and national CAP leadership decided to move forward with them. Change, for better or worse, is sometimes inevitable.
      The facts are; we have a new grade structure in CAP.  We know it was developed to retain members.  We also know there are no real details on the development of the NCO program, its implimentation, or how the total PD program in CAP will be changed. 
      After hundreds of comments speculating all that may happen, I would only hope our leadership will take these remarks to heart.  It is a simple task to create new titles for those doing the job.  It is not so simple to make a member happy doing the job.  Yes, in a volunteer organization, it is the highest priority for an orgnization to be able to motivate its membership to, not only do the job, but to keep doing it well. 
      I would expect to see much more information from NHQ coming shortly, and like with CPP, I would expect the remarks hearin would be taken into account.  I for one, am eager to see the "rest of the story"...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ZigZag911 on November 12, 2013, 04:06:49 AM
      Chiefs of Staff in CAP, per CAPR 20-1, hold command status and authority.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:31:12 AM
      Quote from: SARDOC on November 12, 2013, 03:17:06 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:49:53 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 12, 2013, 12:15:46 AM
      I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

      ^ This.

      The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.

      I think your interpretation of those who should hold those grades is too restrictive.  Technically, Command Positions are those holding the Title of Commander or Deputy/Vice Commander.  This would not include positions like the Wing Chief of Staff, or the Directors on the wing staff.  These positions can wield a lot of authority and responsibility that are totally deserving of the grade that reflects that position.  But, Of course, that's only when grade indicates what it implies, which we don't have under our current Professional Development system.

      You are entirely correct, sir.  I should have said "command position and staff positions for Group and higher."
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

      Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 12, 2013, 04:51:48 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

      Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

      Almost all of corporate America trains new hires in "the right [their] way" of doing X. What you learn in college is nice, it gets you in the door, but the real training takes place literally on the job.

      College to: think more critically or to prove that you can commit to a long term plan, whatever. I can say that some classes really changed my mindset or how I viewed things. Most...well...I'm glad I'm done.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:52:40 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

      (http://www.vistax64.com/images/smilies/roflmao2.gif)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: 68w20 on November 12, 2013, 05:26:37 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
      I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

      So the purpose of education is to pick up concrete, specialized skill sets?  Why then did you take art, history, and literature in high school?  What specialized skill sets did those classes give you?

      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
      Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

      It's just as presumptuous to assume that people don't work hard to earn LA degrees, and that all we (yupp, I'm one of those underwater basket weavers) do is "memorize dogma."
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 01:26:28 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:52:40 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

      (http://www.vistax64.com/images/smilies/roflmao2.gif)

      I wonder if those making more money than you are also laughing.  >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 01:39:36 PM
      Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 12, 2013, 04:51:48 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

      Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

      Almost all of corporate America trains new hires in "the right [their] way" of doing X. What you learn in college is nice, it gets you in the door, but the real training takes place literally on the job.

      College to: think more critically or to prove that you can commit to a long term plan, whatever. I can say that some classes really changed my mindset or how I viewed things. Most...well...I'm glad I'm done.

      A friend, who taught in college several years ago, was telling me that one of his greatest challenges was trying to teach freshmen students how to think critically, how to really study and how to write effectively. Apparently, and for whatever reasons, those skills are not being learned in high school.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 12, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
      +1. We had a required class on how to write research papers. 11 week (last is finals) classes at my college. 10 weeksffor a 10 page paper. Apparently many high schools didn't do junior research papers...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 02:43:22 PM
      Unfortunately the high schools are seriously lacking in teaching students how to think critically, how to really study and how to write effectively.  My ten years of college were enjoyable and well spent.  I earn over a $1.00 a minute...  My wife's ten years of college were also worthwhile since she also earns over a $1.00 a minute.  Don't you remember the books covers from the 60's where they compared the lifetime income of a highschool graduate versus one year of college, two years of college, etc.?  It appears it was one of the worthwhile things I learned in highschool, other than the 100 hour civil defense first aid course that they offered.  I learned how to deliver a baby in a bomb shelter on a newspaper.  A technical degree in college may lead to a career, but a liberal arts degree may lead to a lifetime of enjoying life.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:45:32 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 01:26:28 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:52:40 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

      (http://www.vistax64.com/images/smilies/roflmao2.gif)

      I wonder if those making more money than you are also laughing.  >:D

      Let me ask my friend with a Master's in Medieval History who works in a hotel food court making coffee.

      ...

      No, he says it isn't very funny.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:01:45 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 02:45:32 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 01:26:28 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:52:40 AM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
      One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

      I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

      (http://www.vistax64.com/images/smilies/roflmao2.gif)

      I wonder if those making more money than you are also laughing.  >:D

      Let me ask my friend with a Master's in Medieval History who works in a hotel food court making coffee.

      ...

      No, he says it isn't very funny.

      My turn... Let me ask my friend who has a Master's in Biomechanics, my other friend who has a Bachaler's in English Literature with a Minor in Computer Science, a CAP member I know who has a Bachelor's in Chemical Engineering, a co-worker who has a Master's in Mechanical Engineering and, wait for it..., my buddy who is a Lt Col and pilot in the Air Force, who happens to have Bachelor's and a Master's degrees in History. They're all well employed and find your comments "very funny".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:01:45 PM
      My turn... [snip]

      Bill Gates, Marc Rich, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Lawrence Ellison, Ted Turner...

      ...we can go back and forth all day.  Is it really worth it?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:01:45 PM
      My turn... [snip]

      Bill Gates, Marc Rich, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Lawrence Ellison, Ted Turner...

      ...we can go back and forth all day.  Is it really worth it?

      Sure, a few very smart and talented individuals, many who did go to college, but didn't finish, became billionaires. Unfortunately, they're the minority; they had a brilliant idea and started a successful business.

      For the vast majority of us, we need to acquire marketable skills through college, technical schools, certifications and experience. The job market is so competitive these days that unless you can stand out from the pack, it's hard to get a good paying and rewarding job. Not many going straight from high school to the job market have the necessarily skills or experience to land a good job.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 12, 2013, 03:19:27 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 12, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:01:45 PM
      My turn... [snip]

      Bill Gates, Marc Rich, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Lawrence Ellison, Ted Turner...

      ...we can go back and forth all day.  Is it really worth it?

      Sure, a few very smart and talented individuals, many who did go to college, but didn't finish, became billionaires. Unfortunately, they're the minority; they had a brilliant idea and started a successful business.

      For the vast majority of us, we need to acquire marketable skills through college, technical schools, certifications and experience. The job market is so competitive these days that unless you can stand out from the pack, it's hard to get a good paying and rewarding job. Not many going straight from high school to the job market have the necessarily skills or experience to land a good job.

      I think it's clear nobody is going to change anybody's mind on this topic, and if we keep it up we're going to get the thread locked.

      Truce?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 03:26:09 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
      For the vast majority of us, we need to acquire marketable skills through college, technical schools, certifications and experience.

      The job market is so competitive these days that unless you can stand out from the pack, it's hard to get a good paying and rewarding job. Not many going straight from high school to the job market have the necessarily skills or experience to land a good job.

      You literally just back-pedaled all over your own point(s) from this entire thread.  Yes, there are any number of ways to become "educated" and marketable and college is only one of them.

      The only thing important is what is in bold above.  The rest is the path.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:54:16 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 03:26:09 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
      For the vast majority of us, we need to acquire marketable skills through college, technical schools, certifications and experience.

      The job market is so competitive these days that unless you can stand out from the pack, it's hard to get a good paying and rewarding job. Not many going straight from high school to the job market have the necessarily skills or experience to land a good job.

      You literally just back-pedaled all over your own point(s) from this entire thread.  Yes, there are any number of ways to become "educated" and marketable and college is only one of them.

      The only thing important is what is in bold above.  The rest is the path.

      Actually, I didn't. If you read all of my posts you will see that I never said that college was the only way or even the best way. You and a few others here have been trying to trivialize college education and I've been defending it; not the same thing.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:00:48 PM
      Actually, to be fair, I think we have been marginalizing it in regards to its specific value to CAP members.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:00:48 PM
      Actually, to be fair, I think we have been marginalizing it in regards to its specific value to CAP members.

      If that was true, I wouldn't have been posting about it since I'm also against CAP requiring a college degree, except for specialties needing one (e.g. legal officer).
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:00:48 PM
      Actually, to be fair, I think we have been marginalizing it in regards to its specific value to CAP members.

      If that was true, I wouldn't have been posting about it since I'm also against CAP requiring a college degree, except for specialties needing one (e.g. legal officer).

      The only context that is relevent to this discussion is CAP.  Who cares if people trivialize or marginalize college degrees external to CAP?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JeffDG on November 12, 2013, 04:40:14 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 02:43:22 PM
      Unfortunately the high schools are seriously lacking in teaching students how to think critically, how to really study and how to write effectively.  My ten years of college were enjoyable and well spent.  I earn over a $1.00 a minute...  My wife's ten years of college were also worthwhile since she also earns over a $1.00 a minute.  Don't you remember the books covers from the 60's where they compared the lifetime income of a highschool graduate versus one year of college, two years of college, etc.?  It appears it was one of the worthwhile things I learned in highschool, other than the 100 hour civil defense first aid course that they offered.  I learned how to deliver a baby in a bomb shelter on a newspaper.  A technical degree in college may lead to a career, but a liberal arts degree may lead to a lifetime of enjoying life.
      You need to find a new field

      Good IT folks consider $1/minute to be entry level, no degree required.  No need to waste 10 years of earning (or approximately $1.2m) plus going six figures into debt for that.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 04:53:32 PM
      Didn't waste 10 years, loved every minute of it.  If I ever retire, I will either teach on campus of take classes just to keep in touch with the youth.  Maybe I forgot to mention my healthcare plan, my vacation allowance, my lucrative 401K, my pension, and my job security for life??  Had a big IT buddy that lost it all when the dot com fiasco crashed..  I am an advocate for higher education.  To learn a marketable skill is admirable, jobs come and go, but to learn something that enriches your life forever is priceless.  Stay thirsty my friend.. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:53:45 PM
      Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2013, 04:40:14 PM
      Good IT folks consider $1/minute to be entry level, no degree required.  No need to waste 10 years of earning (or approximately $1.2m) plus going six figures into debt for that.

      Yep, though to be fair, that's more on the consulting side, which is really where you want to be as long as you can accept the possible instability.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 04:53:32 PMMaybe I forgot to mention my healthcare plan, my vacation allowance, my lucrative 401K, my pension, and my job security for life?? 

      You are likely the last generation who will see these benefits on a large scale.

      "Job security for life?"  That's considered a "problem to be fixed" in most sectors, private and public.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 05:29:08 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:00:48 PM
      Actually, to be fair, I think we have been marginalizing it in regards to its specific value to CAP members.

      If that was true, I wouldn't have been posting about it since I'm also against CAP requiring a college degree, except for specialties needing one (e.g. legal officer).

      The only context that is relevent to this discussion is CAP.  Who cares if people trivialize or marginalize college degrees external to CAP?

      In other words, who cares about our core values? I'm glad you don't spend much time working with cadets anymore.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 05:30:05 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 12, 2013, 05:29:08 PM
      In other words, who cares about our core values?

      What? Where'd you get that?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 12, 2013, 06:59:51 PM
      I believe that would fall under "Respect" something a number of folks seem to pay lip service.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 07:25:51 PM
      Invoking "Core Values" in an otherwise civilized discussion is the CAP equivalence of Godwin's Law.

      There's nothing in this discussion, nor in any of my positions that are related to the issues involved that crosses "core values" in any way.

      I mean you wouldn't assert that your opinion regarding higher education holds more weight than anyone else's in this context, or that someone
      who disagrees would be violating "core values", right?  You can make the argument that CAP crosses into the "career counseling" area
      with AE and exposure to military life, but beyond presenting the options and requirements for various career fields, which are going to
      be decidedly heavy into advanced education, no opinion should be expressed either way.

      As to the adult members, it's no one's business since CAP isn't going to be writing checks for credits anytime soon.

      If you think a college education is important for yourself or your family, so be it, best of luck.  In a CAP context the only thing that matters
      is what you bring to the table, not where yo got the tools.  College is only one path, and not necessarily the best one.


      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
      I would say that one part of our job is to introduce scholarships to our cadets and seniors if available.  I currently have two cadets at the Air Force Academy.  Higher education is encouraged by the Air Force, ergo, we should also..
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 07:48:02 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
      I would say that one part of our job is to introduce scholarships to our cadets and seniors if available.  I currently have two cadets at the Air Force Academy.  Higher education is encouraged by the Air Force, ergo, we should also..

      I wouldn't disagree - there's a big difference between "encouraging" something, and requiring it, especially of adults who are volunteers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 12, 2013, 08:20:36 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 04:53:45 PM
      Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2013, 04:40:14 PM
      Good IT folks consider $1/minute to be entry level, no degree required.  No need to waste 10 years of earning (or approximately $1.2m) plus going six figures into debt for that.

      Yep, though to be fair, that's more on the consulting side, which is really where you want to be as long as you can accept the possible instability.

      Yea, maybe back in the day. With IT/Programing outsourcing and (just like law) supply exceeding demand, most kids these days are glad to find a sub-50k gig on those fields. Hell, we were hoping for 45k, would settle for 40k when my wife started looking for work after college. Thankfully she did better than that, but it was a point we were considering to be good!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 09:28:38 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 07:48:02 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
      I would say that one part of our job is to introduce scholarships to our cadets and seniors if available.  I currently have two cadets at the Air Force Academy.  Higher education is encouraged by the Air Force, ergo, we should also..

      I wouldn't disagree - there's a big difference between "encouraging" something, and requiring it, especially of adults who are volunteers.

      We aren't the Air Force.  Nor do we have the capacity to really encourage a college education for adult members beyond just talking about it.  If we just want to arbitrarily start requiring degrees for certain assignments in CAP, then go ahead.  There are no tangible benefits with having a degree and volunteering in CAP.  Most adult members I know are usually settled in their careers, have families and are pretty much on whatever path they have chosen in life.  I don't have a degree.  And I think anyone would have a pretty hard time convincing me that there are missions in CAP that I am incapable of because I don't have one.  Sure, encourage education and make resources available.  But unless CAP is going to start providing financial assistance to adult members to attend college, good luck. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 12, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
      Flying Pig, I concur..
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 12, 2013, 10:00:09 PM
      Me too.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 02:16:33 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

      Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

      If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.

      And the easy light of day too!  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 02:23:51 AM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:56:55 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 11, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
      Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

      That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

      Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

      If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.

      Actually, I'm one of the few on this board that does like you, although I think you could tone down the attitude from time to time.  ;)

      I like you too Eclipse, I just like yanking your chain from time to time. Don't take it personal, it's not intended that way.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 02:40:22 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2013, 07:47:56 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 11, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
      NCRBlues,

      It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

      New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

      And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

      So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

      If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

      If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

      As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

      Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

      Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

      And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

      You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

      If I'm wrong then I'm wrong... won't be the first time that happened in my life.

      Guess you missed the part where I said the current Officer Corps would be grandfathered and the part about requiring it for CPT or higher. That is in alignment with the military that will allow commissions from certain military colleges and OCS without the degree but it will have to be completed prior to your CPTs' Promotion Broad.

      So your Mayberry unit most likely has enough grandfathered officers running around that the problem you pose will really not be an issue and by the time it is, most new members will already be in the NCO track so again, really not an issue.

      As to your logistics question, who handles it now? Who's going to handle it for the new NCO Corps? I'd need to know that before I can offer a suggestion.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 14, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D

      From the VA Security Guard/Rent-a-Cop store......
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 14, 2013, 03:01:49 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 14, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D

      From the VA Security Guard/Rent-a-Cop store......

      couldn't resist  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 03:03:35 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 11, 2013, 08:15:08 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 11, 2013, 06:28:04 AM


      And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

      umm WOW!....  In theory its only a title change, the PD looks to me like its pretty much the same thing.  I am not sure how that suddenly devalued your work and effort?  Because you cant tell people you are a CAPT/MAJ/LTC in the USAF... auxillary?......

      I dont know how long you have been a member of the organization, but this would not be the first seemingly ridiculous change/requirement to come up that has had people threatening to leave in such epic proportions as to lay waste to the membership levels

      Berry Boards
      Orange Hard hats and vests
      fingerprints/background checks
      CPPT
      no push ups
      Only vans

      Im am sure there are more (many more) and yet CAP still exists.....

      mk

      :clap:
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 03:49:02 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 14, 2013, 03:01:49 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 14, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D

      From the VA Security Guard/Rent-a-Cop store......

      couldn't resist  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

      All good brother!  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Garibaldi on November 14, 2013, 04:45:48 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D

      Pur-do?

      /runs
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 06:10:37 AM
      Quote from: Garibaldi on November 14, 2013, 04:45:48 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 14, 2013, 02:51:35 AM
      Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 11, 2013, 07:54:39 PM

      to vs. too and due vs. do

      Where did you get your grad degree from??

      Purdue. Where did you get your Grammar Police badge?  ;D

      Pur-do?

      /runs

      My undergrad is from IU.

      I figure if I do law school at Notre Dame and I'll have the whole state sewn up.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 14, 2013, 06:53:53 AM
      IU?

      Hope not Indiana U at Bloomington!

      That is where I got two Masters...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 14, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
      Indiana University, Class of 1995, SPEA, BS Criminal Justice and Class of 1999, SPEA, Graduate Certificate of Public Management.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 14, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
      Oh nooooo!

      I have to "tone it down" with ya now? Hope not! I am having fun when I throw little quibs at ya!

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 14, 2013, 02:18:54 PM
      GED program, California Department of Corrections myself.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 14, 2013, 02:19:10 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 02:35:32 AM
      I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   ;D

      My SWAG (Scientific Wild Assumption/Guess) is; You are correct. I doubt you will ever find a CAP NCO in a Senior Squadron. Senior Squadrons relate better to "Officers Club". The few NCOs we have now are usually in a Cadet or Composite Squadron.   ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Private Investigator on November 14, 2013, 02:30:11 PM
      Quote from: 68w10 on November 12, 2013, 05:26:37 AM

      So the purpose of education is to pick up concrete, specialized skill sets?  Why then did you take art, history, and literature in high school?  What specialized skill sets did those classes give you?

      So they can create a better Big Mac   ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Al Sayre on November 14, 2013, 02:40:02 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 14, 2013, 02:19:10 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 02:35:32 AM
      I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   ;D

      My SWAG (Scientific Wild Assumption/Guess) is; You are correct. I doubt you will ever find a CAP NCO in a Senior Squadron. Senior Squadrons relate better to "Officers Club". The few NCOs we have now are usually in a Cadet or Composite Squadron.   ;)

      You'd be suprised,  I have a retired USAF CMSgt/CAP Capt who recently became active again after a > 10 yr hiatus, in a Flight that was just recently chartered, pop up the other night asking about the "new NCO program", and I don't believe he's active on this board.  I'll have to ask him how he heard about it next time I see him...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      QuoteINFORMATION BACKGROUND:

      CAP members are achieving rank far too quickly and automatically.  Too often CAP officer grade is a misleading indication of ability or experience.  The general civilian population cannot tell the difference and draws no distinction between CAP officers and Air Force officers.  Therefore, the impression made is a direct reflection on our parent service.  In addition, the impression made, whether in ability, bearing, or appearance, is a direct reflection on Air Force officers who have worked very hard to achieve that same rank.   

      Initial officer rank - It is not possible to produce a credible officer of someone with no military or CAP background by having them take an on-line course or even by spending a few hours in the classroom.

      Subsequent promotions - Time in grade and PD awards are the minimum requirements for promotion - performance is also required.  A promotion is also recognition of the NEXT level of service. It is not uncommon to promote officers that become completely inactive.   Promotion is not a prize or payment for past service or a reward for simply being a volunteer.  It is not an entitlement.

      PROPOSED CSAG ACTION:

      That the CSAG recommend to CAP/CC changes to the promotion criteria to include:

      1. Make current Flight Officer grades and requirements applicable to all new senior members with no military or cadet background, regardless of age.

      2. Modify the minimum skill level/training and time-in-grade for duty performance promotions as follows:
       
      a. Raise the skill level and training requirement one level for each grade
      b. Make the Officer Basic Course a requirement for 2Lt instead of being taken at any time in the program
      c. Require a letter of justification for promotion to field grade.  This letter should include documentation of the candidate's outstanding capabilities and experience, as well his/her plans for future contributions to CAP.


      Grade     Min Skill Level/Trng      Time-In-Grade            In Addition
      FO          Level I                         3 months as SM
      TFO        Technician Rating           6 months as FO
      SFO        Senior Rating                12 months as TFO
      2 Lt        OBC                             6 months as SFO     Wing Level Board
      1 Lt        Level II                        12 months as 2 Lt
      Capt       Level III                       18 months as 1 LT    Justification letter
      Maj         Level IV                       3 years as Capt       Justification letter
      Lt Col      Level V                        4 years as Maj         Justification letter
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: johnnyb47 on November 14, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      QuoteINFORMATION BACKGROUND:

      CAP members are achieving rank far too quickly and automatically.  Too often CAP officer grade is a misleading indication of ability or experience.  The general civilian population cannot tell the difference and draws no distinction between CAP officers and Air Force officers.  Therefore, the impression made is a direct reflection on our parent service.  In addition, the impression made, whether in ability, bearing, or appearance, is a direct reflection on Air Force officers who have worked very hard to achieve that same rank.   

      Initial officer rank - It is not possible to produce a credible officer of someone with no military or CAP background by having them take an on-line course or even by spending a few hours in the classroom.

      Subsequent promotions - Time in grade and PD awards are the minimum requirements for promotion - performance is also required.  A promotion is also recognition of the NEXT level of service. It is not uncommon to promote officers that become completely inactive.   Promotion is not a prize or payment for past service or a reward for simply being a volunteer.  It is not an entitlement.

      PROPOSED CSAG ACTION:

      That the CSAG recommend to CAP/CC changes to the promotion criteria to include:

      1. Make current Flight Officer grades and requirements applicable to all new senior members with no military or cadet background, regardless of age.

      2. Modify the minimum skill level/training and time-in-grade for duty performance promotions as follows:
       
      a. Raise the skill level and training requirement one level for each grade
      b. Make the Officer Basic Course a requirement for 2Lt instead of being taken at any time in the program
      c. Require a letter of justification for promotion to field grade.  This letter should include documentation of the candidate's outstanding capabilities and experience, as well his/her plans for future contributions to CAP.


      Grade     Min Skill Level/Trng      Time-In-Grade            In Addition
      FO          Level I                         3 months as SM
      TFO        Technician Rating           6 months as FO
      SFO        Senior Rating                12 months as TFO
      2 Lt        OBC                             6 months as SFO     Wing Level Board
      1 Lt        Level II                        12 months as 2 Lt
      Capt       Level III                       18 months as 1 LT    Justification letter
      Maj         Level IV                       3 years as Capt       Justification letter
      Lt Col      Level V                        4 years as Maj         Justification letter
      That looks like a good start.
      Not to nitpick (Ok I'm going to nitpick) but I see a couple of things that bug me:

      1) Many Specialty Tracks require a bare minimum of 36 months to reach Senior Level, such as Emergency Services. Others can be achieved in 18 months, like Communications.
      I would be concerned that some candidates may choose Specialty Tracks based on how quickly they can achieve their Senior Rating and be eligible for SFO. If all time requirements for Specialty Tracks were synchronized this wouldn't be an issue.

      2)
      Quoteb. Make the Officer Basic Course a requirement for 2Lt instead of being taken at any time in the program
      OBC is a requirement for Level II and promotion to Captain in the current PD structure. It isn't a "Take it anytime you wish" requirement. I hate little things like this because it makes me wonder what else the presenter/committee missed when drawing up the new proposed plan.

      That's it.
      /nitpick

      Otherwise I like it.

      ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MSG Mac on November 14, 2013, 03:47:55 PM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 14, 2013, 02:40:02 PM
      Quote from: Private Investigator on November 14, 2013, 02:19:10 PM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2013, 02:35:32 AM
      I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   ;D

      My SWAG (Scientific Wild Assumption/Guess) is; You are correct. I doubt you will ever find a CAP NCO in a Senior Squadron. Senior Squadrons relate better to "Officers Club". The few NCOs we have now are usually in a Cadet or Composite Squadron.   ;)

      You'd be suprised,  I have a retired USAF CMSgt/CAP Capt who recently became active again after a > 10 yr hiatus, in a Flight that was just recently chartered, pop up the other night asking about the "new NCO program", and I don't believe he's active on this board.  I'll have to ask him how he heard about it next time I see him...

      Maybe he got it directly off the CAP website, just like most of us did when the announcement was made.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: jeders on November 14, 2013, 04:43:31 PM
      Quote from: johnnyb47 on November 14, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
      That looks like a good start.
      Not to nitpick (Ok I'm going to nitpick) but I see a couple of things that bug me:

      1) Many Specialty Tracks require a bare minimum of 36 months to reach Senior Level, such as Emergency Services. Others can be achieved in 18 months, like Communications.
      I would be concerned that some candidates may choose Specialty Tracks based on how quickly they can achieve their Senior Rating and be eligible for SFO. If all time requirements for Specialty Tracks were synchronized this wouldn't be an issue.

      2)
      Quoteb. Make the Officer Basic Course a requirement for 2Lt instead of being taken at any time in the program
      OBC is a requirement for Level II and promotion to Captain in the current PD structure. It isn't a "Take it anytime you wish" requirement. I hate little things like this because it makes me wonder what else the presenter/committee missed when drawing up the new proposed plan.

      That's it.
      /nitpick

      Otherwise I like it.

      ;D

      Also, they apparently think that Capt is field grade rather than company grade.

      Quotec. Require a letter of justification for promotion to field grade.
      ...
      Grade     Min Skill Level/Trng      Time-In-Grade            In Addition
      ...
      Capt       Level III                       18 months as 1 LT    Justification letter

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 14, 2013, 04:48:28 PM
      Heh, caught that too.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ProdigalJim on November 14, 2013, 05:19:14 PM
      I liked that officer program change when we first posted on it here.

      As for the NCO program, I'm really amused at the gnashing-of-teeth and rending-of-garments for a program which, in it's current outline, is at least three and possibly 4.5 years from implementation.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 05:29:02 PM
      Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 14, 2013, 05:19:14 PMAs for the NCO program, I'm really amused at the gnashing-of-teeth and rending-of-garments for a program which, in it's current outline, is at least three and possibly 4.5 years from implementation.

      I didn't read those notes as being additive, I read them as indicating the proposal as written would take 18-24 months.  Which is reasonable considering what is proposed and
      the fact that most of it is probably already done, considering it's been worked on for the last 3+ years.

      With that said, it doesn't matter what the timeline is.  If it's not a good idea for the organization, it's not.   It just means that in 4-5 years people will be saying "why didn't anyone speak up?"
      You have to understand that governments and their agencies work on a difference scale, and 4-5 years is nothing.

      My town is just now getting affected, significantly, by a major highway construction plan that was approved 20 years ago.  People in town are up in arms because
      it looks like it came out of nowhere and will take 10 years to finish.  Many didn't live here when the decisions were made.

      Same goes for long-term initiatives - this will affect people who aren't even members (yet), and will live well past the current national leadership (which could also mean
      it never reaches its potential fruition).

      What's interesting, and all too typical for CAP, is that the potential negative consequences have either been dismissed, ignored, or are simply never to be discussed.
      Any proposal that asserts to radically change an organization should always include the potential negative consequences.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 05:50:02 PM

      Quote from: jeders on November 14, 2013, 04:43:31 PM
      Also, they apparently think that Capt is field grade rather than company grade.

      Maybe they think this is more in line with the responsibilities they want a CAP Capt to have. If you think about it, the typical Air Force squadron is commanded by a field grade officer, not a company grade officer. In contrast, many CAP squadrons are commanded by company grade officers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 06:03:14 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 05:50:02 PMMaybe they think this is more in line with the responsibilities they want a CAP Capt to have. If you think about it, the typical Air Force squadron is commanded by a field grade officer, not a company grade officer. In contrast, many CAP squadrons are commanded by company grade officers.

      Yes, but the scope of a typical USAF squadron looks more like a CAP wing.
      Title: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 06:03:14 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 05:50:02 PMMaybe they think this is more in line with the responsibilities they want a CAP Capt to have. If you think about it, the typical Air Force squadron is commanded by a field grade officer, not a company grade officer. In contrast, many CAP squadrons are commanded by company grade officers.

      Yes, but the scope of a typical USAF squadron looks more like a CAP wing.

      Not even close. The typical Air Force squadron has a very narrow focus (communications, security, airlift, civil engineering, finance, etc.). They don't have all the support functions that a typical CAP squadron has and are completely dependent on the group and wing for those services.

      They do, however, manage much (and that's an understatement) larger budgets and resources. And their missions and capabilities are also much more complex.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 06:36:03 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PMThey do, however, manage much (and that's an understatement) larger budgets and resources. And their missions and capabilities are also much more complex.

      Agreed - I didn't say function, I said scope.  Why CAP feels the need to duplicate so much effort over and over when the majority of the administration could be handled at the wing
      level and just let the units do "unit stuff" is beyond me.

      Especially these days with the intertubes making things like personnel and most admin quick and simple, why have them at every echelon?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 06:38:40 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
      Not even close. The typical Air Force squadron has a very narrow focus (communications, security, airlift, civil engineering, finance, etc.).

      except we don't do those things.  A typical aviation squadron has somewhere between 10-25 aircraft, which would be the only analog to a CAP squadron.

      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PMThey do, however, manage much (and that's an understatement) larger budgets and resources. And their missions and capabilities are also much more complex.

      Agreed - I didn't say function, I said scope.  Why CAP feels the need to duplicate so much effort over and over when the majority of the administration could be handled at the wing
      level and just let the units do "unit stuff" is beyond me.

      Especially these days with the intertubes making things like personnel and most admin quick and simple, why have them at every echelon?

      The more you slice it, the more you see the military models don't fit CAP and never will.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 07:10:49 PM

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 06:38:40 PM
      The more you slice it, the more you see the military models don't fit CAP and never will.

      Except, we don't really follow the current Air Force model. CAP units (squadrons, groups, wings, regions) are not structured the way the Air Force is structured.

      I don't necessarily disagree that "military models don't" always "fit" CAP as a civilian volunteer organization. But that's the problem with wanting it both ways. If we want to be the Air Force Auxiliary, receive Air Force funding, wear Air Force-style uniforms and officer (or NCO) grade insignias, etc., then these somewhat incompatible models (military vs. civilian, government vs. volunteer) are going to be present in one way or another.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 08:28:51 PM
      Fair enough, but then if a restructure is needed (and I think it is), concentrate on thing that makes meaningful differences and not
      the trivialities of grade and other deck chairs.

      Push as much of the administrivia of personnel, finance, etc., up to the wing level, get as much of it online as possible.

      Focus inspections on mission performance at an appropriate level and get the units out of a constant circle of being graded on
      box checking which not actually doing anything.

      Retire specialties that are more about emulating a military model then are about what we actually do, or keep them at echelons where
      they are appropriate.

      The bottom, unpopular line is that if a member isn't focused on member-level mission execution, they probably shouldn't be assigned to a squadron.

      In regards to who can command a squadron, I found it interesting the other day to learn that while the BSA has the same "must be present to win"
      issues with their Scout Leaders, to be appointed as a Scoutmaster or A/Scoutmaster, you are required to attend classroom based training
      as both a leader and in outdoor skills.  Imagine, requiring UCC and maybe SLS prior to being appointed to run a unit which has a lot more in
      terms of expectations then a BSA unit.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 09:22:09 PM
      Agree. Many functions know assigned to squadrons should either go away or transferred to higher headquarters. I also agree that we need to expand our online capabilities and continue automating many of the things we still do manually.

      I also would like to see a focus on mission capabilities and use that as a measure of success. But for that, we need to eliminate some of the extraneous things we're expected to do now. There are so many (sometimes unnecessary) unit requirements, that it's almost impossible to keep up with the manning levels and resources we have available. We expect units to do so much (especially things that are not mission essential), that many end up not succeeding at any or very few of them.

      Requiring training prior to becoming a commander would be ideal (I'm all for it), but hard to enforce in smaller units. Perhaps the new command specialty track is a step in that direction.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 09:33:16 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 14, 2013, 09:22:09 PMRequiring training prior to becoming a commander would be ideal (I'm all for it), but hard to enforce in smaller units. Perhaps the new command specialty track is a step in that direction.

      It seems like it would be, but you simply make it a requirement and live with it.  As mentioned, it's hard-fast in the BSA, unit viability or not.

      In the case of my son's Troop, their Scoutmaster quit abruptly and they were left hanging - this didn't change the BSA's rules.
      Unit meetings were suspended while finding a replacement, and once found, the new guy couldn't be officially pointed until
      he'd completed all the necessary training - and this is practical, standardized, classroom training.

      In the interim the Scouts attended meetings and activities with other local troops, and the Troops committee continued the
      administrative work of the unit. (FWIW I don't think the committee paradigm fits CAP, since I've seen far too much in-fighting
      amongst parents who are otherwise no involved but have a small slice of power, but in the interim of a CC, Group or Wing
      could keep the doors open, which is the kind of thing they actually should be doing).

      So much of our baseline performance issues, which then ripple through out the organization could be fixed by just this simple requirement.
      In CAP's case, I think it should be a combo of tenure and training, which then gets back to the unit responsibility of recruiting
      a large enough pool to always have someone interested.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 14, 2013, 09:48:21 PM
      Eclipse, You note, "to the unit responsibility of recruiting a large enough pool to always have someone interested."  I have been involved in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and CAP and I have never been able to recruit enough people to always have someone that is willing to take on the commitment, liability, and responsibility to accept leadership roles when needed.   We had a heck of a time getting Den leaders/Mothers to help out.  After recruiting drives at the local school at our first meeting, I would announce that if I did not have enough volunteers there would not be Dens for their children.  Do you know that some parents will walk out instead of devoting time to help with the children?  It is a different time than it was 40-50 years ago.  Parents are looking for babysitters or for male role models for their single parent families.  You make it sound like leaders aren't looking for replacements.  Trust me, we are.  In our own squadron, when they decided to dump me as commander, my wife took over, but this meant Wing had to give her up as the Wing Legal Officer.  If not for her, our squadron would ahve been closed down.  CAP is not is a good place right now, too many rules and regulations without due consideration as to possible outcomes.  This NCO program is a perfect example.     
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 10:17:57 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 14, 2013, 09:48:21 PM
      Eclipse, You note, "to the unit responsibility of recruiting a large enough pool to always have someone interested."

      I would argue (and have) that this is the #1 responsibility of anyone with "Commander" on their business card.
      Every other mission fails if this isn't being done.

      Quote from: AirAux on November 14, 2013, 09:48:21 PMDo you know that some parents will walk out instead of devoting time to help with the children?  It is a different time than it was 40-50 years ago.  Parents are looking for babysitters or for male role models for their single parent families.

      I can't dispute the cultural realities of volunteerism these days - it's very sad, but that doesn't really change the discussion.
      If those parents aren't interested in stepping up, then the unit deserves to die, same goes for CAP units.  It's supposed to
      be a cooperative "all-hands" effort, not the responsibility of one or two martyrs that choose to carry the whole load themselves.
      That's not healthy for the BSA, CAP, or the people involved, and it propagates the babysitter mentality.

      In most units, recruiting is nearly non-existent beyond lighting an occasional candle at the local church and "hoping".

      As we've discussed before, fully-operational units don't usually have too much issue in this regard, engaged, happy members want their
      friends to play, too, and these things tend to be able to be self-sustaining, though they need to be recruiting as well.

      But a struggling unit, and I would argue any unit at charter minimums is "struggling" (probably needs to be a factor of 2-3xs the charter
      before there's breathing room) needs to focus on manpower above all else. "Warm bodies" won't fix every issue, but it fixes a lot of them.
      Recruit, recruit, recruit, with realistic marketing that the unit is in a rebuilding phase, and leave the borrowed HMMVs and airplane from another region at home.

      As to the regs, that's an excuse not a valid reason for failure, though it's certainly more indication of the need for people.
      The opportunities afforded by CAP come at a cost, and you don't get to play with airplanes, vehicles, radio gear, and large sums of money,
      not to mention a lifesaving mission, in a government context and not have forms to complete.

      That simply "is", and it's not remarkably different then it was last century.  If that's too much, so be it, but at its core, the administrative side of
      running a unit is laughably simple for anyone willing to actually take the time to read a few regs and ask a few questions - human nature leads many people
      to prefer expending twice as many calories complaining as asking questions to just get things done.  You can add on the squishy nature of the word "required"
      in a CAP context and things get even simpler.

      The other piece of this issue is the haphazard, random nature of where and why units are located.   In most cases it's either a historical tie to a resource like
      an airport, or because of where the Unit CC lives. Granted, airports are where they are, but there's almost never any effort or thought given to
      the local demographics or if there is a critical mass of people interested in the kinds volunteerism opportunities CAP affords, coupled with a reluctance to
      move or close units that exist where no one is interested in being a member.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 14, 2013, 10:26:48 PM
      Concur.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 14, 2013, 11:22:44 PM
      In a PM to me from a popular lurker it was pointed out to me that the requirement for Scoutmasters to receive training before leader appointment is
      a per-council requirement and not a national standard.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 15, 2013, 12:49:55 AM
      To use the military model for CAP.

      In the USAF the duty description of any commander at any level is to "Man, Train and Equip the unit to meet assigned missions and duties".

      So I agree with Eclipse that a unit commander does have the duty to recruit personnel.

      Having said that.....higher echelons have to identify what the unit's missions and duties are.   Not the general three missions of CAP but specific taskings.......We got a CP mission....okay....How many Cadets do I have to serve?  We got an ES mission....okay.....What specialties and how many of each do I need to have?   AE mission....okay....how many teachers do I need to fly each year, how many external AE presentations, etc.?

      Recruiting in CAP is nonexistent because no one has put any real goals on the units.  Since there are no goals....then there is no way to track and see if unit is doing a good job or not.   Since there are no goals...there is no way to fail.

      The Cadet Quality Unit Award is a general step in the right direction.   We need to do the same for ALL types of CAP units.  And we need for Group and Wing to step up their game as well.  They need to develop the integrated OPLANS, Provide the necessary training for lower level units, and assist lower level units in Manning, Training and Equipping their units to meet operational missions.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 15, 2013, 05:32:39 AM
      Quote from: flyer333555 on November 14, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
      Oh nooooo!

      I have to "tone it down" with ya now? Hope not! I am having fun when I throw little quibs at ya!

      Flyer

      It's all good.  8)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:

      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 15, 2013, 06:12:56 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:

      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.

      Alright, now you're just trolling.   :o
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 15, 2013, 07:20:47 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 15, 2013, 06:12:56 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:

      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.

      Alright, now you're just trolling.   :o

      Who... me?   ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 15, 2013, 08:21:32 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.

      And piss off and alienate membership.  Having a degree does not make someone a better officer and would not help improve the corp.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 15, 2013, 11:19:11 PM
      TO think... I managed to run a Squadron and develop it from almost being disbanded to having over 40 members, Region Sq of Distinction, Unit Citation and got the unit a new G1000 airplane two years in a row, and end up with Senior pilot wings and a CD ribbon with 4 clasps all without a degree.  Of course... all my command directives were written in crayon with stick figures.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: bosshawk on November 16, 2013, 12:45:47 AM
      Red crayon and black stick figures.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 16, 2013, 12:49:58 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 15, 2013, 11:19:11 PM... all my command directives were written in crayon with stick figures.

      If you had a degree you'd know to never put anything in writing...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 16, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 16, 2013, 12:49:58 AM
      Quote from: Flying Pig on November 15, 2013, 11:19:11 PM... all my command directives were written in crayon with stick figures.

      If you had a degree you'd know to never put anything in writing...


      Lawlz.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Elihu.Lowery on November 17, 2013, 10:37:37 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:

      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.
      Requiring a unpaid volunteer to earn a 4yr college degree would be a bit excessive of a requirement. However, I do believe that requiring completion of the Officer Course before promotion to an officer is a reasonable requirement and one that I would strongly support. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM
      While browsing commissioning requirements I came across this from the USCG for OCS eligibility: 
      Quote6.     Education:

              -Have a baccalaureate or higher degree or
              -Receive the ACE recommended score on the five general CLEP exams (i.e. English Composition, Humanities, Natural Science, College     
                 Mathematics, Social Science/History) or

             -Have one year of college (30 semester hours or 45 quarter hours) and have completed at least one college-level mathematics course, or
                 receive the ACE recommended score on the College Mathematics CLEP exam

      I would support something along those lines:  That's about $500 if you want to be a CAP officer and dont have a degree (I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      mk

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 02:11:48 AM
      My first thought was that CAP needs pilots.  My second was trying to stick to the USAF mind set that pilots are O grades.  However I would say that if there is a major overhaul of the officer appointment process; perhaps a needs analysis of how much CAP needs to recruit pilots would be appropriate.  I suspect that its not as bad as one would think.... 

      There is no reason the same education requirement for "commissioning" couldn't apply to pilots as well....

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 02:58:42 AM
      Personally I am inclined to say (compromise between the degree vs no degree groups) an associates is acceptable for O-1 to O-3 and that 4 year degree is not a requirement until promotion to Major.

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      ....

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

      You could go really hog wild with this:  If the thought process is to have a "higher level of educational ability" comparable to RM officers that have a 4 year degree, yet you want to create an internal training program why not create a "CAP University" program.  Perhaps an online "school" that teaches you the fundamentals of the 5 CLEP exams and preps you for the exam.  If you want the real CLEP credit pay the fees and take the tests, if you just want the CAP "commission" just complete the courses.

      I would venture to say there needs to be "more" to round out the "credit hours" to be comparable to an associates degree; I am sure similar to the Community College of the Air Force giving credit for basic/tech school/CDC; you could come up with a course/credit comparison to say OBC, SLS and Technician ratings.  Of course there would need to be a change to the CAP PD schedule.....

      just brain storming......

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 03:08:59 AM
      So make it more difficult and expensive for members to join and progress.  That will surely bring in the numbers for us.  There is no need for us to require degrees for our officer corp in any aspect we are not the real military and do not need the extensive requirements they do for the corp.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 03:17:04 AM
      The point I am gathering from the degree vs not degree battle is not to make it more difficult to join and progress.  You want to join and be a worker bee (or technical specialist) go the NCO route.  You want to be in charge and manage beyond the front-line supervisor level; be an officer, but wait: there is a higher level of expectation of ability/knowledge required on that side...comparable to the principles taught in college level programs; hence a degree requirement.

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 03:58:54 AM
      Two issues there.

      There's no "worker bee / leader" caste in a volunteer organization.  Everyone is supposed to be both.

      Second, that requirement would cut off a significant population of sitting CC's, not to mention the future channel,
      impacting the very existence of many units, and if it's "OK" to back fill until someone better comes around,
      then you're defeating your purpose and negating the need.

      The military, and in many cases private industry, can require a degree because they have the means to
      pay for that degree and build their own folks, and the ROI on the effort is at least equal in terms of monetary compensation.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 04:57:33 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 03:58:54 AM
      Two issues there.

      There's no "worker bee / leader" caste in a volunteer organization.  Everyone is supposed to be both.

      Second, that requirement would cut off a significant population of sitting CC's, not to mention the future channel,
      impacting the very existence of many units, and if it's "OK" to back fill until someone better comes around,
      then you're defeating your purpose and negating the need.

      ....

      1-Sure there is: I have been in a number of them.  They usually come from the same pool, but there are usually (and there frequently should) be requirements to move to the "leader" caste...either as a pre-appointment or post (ie the within 6 months.....sort of requirement)

      2-I have heard that argument in numerous other volunteer organizations....higher education requirements...and how "they will FORCE X,Y,Z out of existence..."   Often times in the long run it really is for the better.  I am sure its been heard in CAP before.   But, maybe its not "time" for CAP yet......

      mk 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:03:05 AM
      Quote from: Elihu.Lowery on November 17, 2013, 10:37:37 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:24 AM
      Quote from: Papabird on November 14, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 14, 2013, 02:50:40 PM
      I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes: (//http://javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContentPlaceHolder$gvUploads$ctl16$lnkbtnView',''))

      Wow, I like that.   :clap:

      Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.
      Requiring a unpaid volunteer to earn a 4yr college degree would be a bit excessive of a requirement. However, I do believe that requiring completion of the Officer Course before promotion to an officer is a reasonable requirement and one that I would strongly support.

      For Captain and above, it's really not that excessive if you think of it in the broader picture of military grade alignment and how the "real world" operates today.

      Plus with the new NCO Corps, the expectation of new senior members won't be to make LTC their capstone grade in CAP... CMSgt will be... if they don't have a degree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:08:03 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM
      While browsing commissioning requirements I came across this from the USCG for OCS eligibility: 
      Quote6.     Education:

              -Have a baccalaureate or higher degree or
              -Receive the ACE recommended score on the five general CLEP exams (i.e. English Composition, Humanities, Natural Science, College     
                 Mathematics, Social Science/History) or

             -Have one year of college (30 semester hours or 45 quarter hours) and have completed at least one college-level mathematics course, or
                 receive the ACE recommended score on the College Mathematics CLEP exam

      I would support something along those lines:  That's about $500 if you want to be a CAP officer and don't have a degree (I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      mk

      A better path would be to appoint them to CAP's pseudo "warrant" grades of Flight Officers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: CAPAPRN on November 18, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
      Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

      "The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience."

      That would seem to indicate the only change is that the current NCO's will now be promotion eligible. No college degrees for officers, no ABU's no Khaki's , nothing changes! What a surprise
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:13:06 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 02:58:42 AM
      Personally I am inclined to say (compromise between the degree vs no degree groups) an associates is acceptable for O-1 to O-3 and that 4 year degree is not a requirement until promotion to Major.

      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      ....

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

      You could go really hog wild with this:  If the thought process is to have a "higher level of educational ability" comparable to RM officers that have a 4 year degree, yet you want to create an internal training program why not create a "CAP University" program.  Perhaps an online "school" that teaches you the fundamentals of the 5 CLEP exams and preps you for the exam.  If you want the real CLEP credit pay the fees and take the tests, if you just want the CAP "commission" just complete the courses.

      I would venture to say there needs to be "more" to round out the "credit hours" to be comparable to an associates degree; I am sure similar to the Community College of the Air Force giving credit for basic/tech school/CDC; you could come up with a course/credit comparison to say OBC, SLS and Technician ratings.  Of course there would need to be a change to the CAP PD schedule.....

      just brain storming......

      mk

      Excellent idea!

      This could also be a recruitment tool... join CAP and you can earn credits towards an accredited degree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:16:42 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 03:17:04 AM
      The point I am gathering from the degree vs not degree battle is not to make it more difficult to join and progress.  You want to join and be a worker bee (or technical specialist) go the NCO route.  You want to be in charge and manage beyond the front-line supervisor level; be an officer, but wait: there is a higher level of expectation of ability/knowledge required on that side...comparable to the principles taught in college level programs; hence a degree requirement.

      mk

      Exactly.

      And, if you make more use of the Flight Officer grades for qualified pilots you get the complete package:

      SMWO (Enlisted)

      CAP NCO Corps

      Flight Officers (Warrant)

      CAP Officer Corps
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:20:08 AM
      I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

      And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:21:42 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

      Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

      BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:20:08 AM
      I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

      And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

      And what is your age group, what business are you in/were you in?

      And in my proposed plan, the degree is not required to join... just get promoted to Captain or higher.

      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 18, 2013, 05:26:52 AM
      Quote from: CAPAPRN on November 18, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
      Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

      "The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience."

      That would seem to indicate the only change is that the current NCO's will now be promotion eligible. No college degrees for officers, no ABU's no Khaki's , nothing changes! What a surprise

      Have you read anything else? That's just part of it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: cap235629 on November 18, 2013, 05:27:52 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM


      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      In what universe?

      You make overly broad statements that are based on your limited experience.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 05:29:16 AM
      Quote from: CAPAPRN on November 18, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
      Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

      Did you read the actual proposal or the press releases from CAP or the USAF?  Both indicate that non-military members
      will have the oportuntiy to become CAP NCOs.

      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:20:08 AMAnd following many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

      This.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 05:29:56 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AMFYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      Not even a little.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 18, 2013, 05:36:54 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No, you can have a PhD and still enlist in the Air Force. You might get some questions and weird looks from the Recruiters, but you can.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:43:54 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:21:42 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

      Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

      BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?

      You know little of what you speak.  And to your other questions I spent 12 years wearing a badge and beret for the AF and now I currently deploy people and cargo.  And some of the best leaders I have had did not have degrees and could run circles around those who did.  Your attention to detail and blinders are really troublesome. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 18, 2013, 05:47:27 AM
      (http://www.ohgizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Pop-corn-hoodie.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 18, 2013, 05:27:52 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM


      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      In what universe?

      You make overly broad statements that are based on your limited experience.

      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 05:59:54 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 18, 2013, 05:36:54 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
      Quote from: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

      Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

      CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No, you can have a PhD and still enlist in the Air Force. You might get some questions and weird looks from the Recruiters, but you can.

      We were/are discussing officer appointments... not enlistments, but we digress.

      BTW, do you still get to enlist at E-4 with a degree in the Air Force?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:43:54 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:21:42 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
      Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in.  :-\

      No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

      Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

      BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?

      You know little of what you speak.  And to your other questions I spent 12 years wearing a badge and beret for the AF and now I currently deploy people and cargo.  And some of the best leaders I have had did not have degrees and could run circles around those who did.  Your attention to detail and blinders are really troublesome.

      And what percentage are those great leaders you know versus the entire span of leadership with degrees in then USAF and whatever logistic company you work for now? Pretty small I'd venture to guess.

      And that's my point... you're trying to say because you know a few great leaders without degree... that then all CAP leaders can be great leaders without degrees. Statistically that's impossible.

      You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 06:11:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM
      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
      You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
      You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

      Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevent experience trying to make things "better" for
      people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

      Interesting analogy.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 06:23:06 AM
      Please show me statistical data that shows having a degree makes you a better leader?  I resist change for the sake of change and no one has yet to provide one solid ounce of proof or data that would show that having a degree makes one a better leader and therefor would make one a better leader in the organization. 

      Requiring a degree to advance in this organization would result in an exodus of qualified people to execute the mission.  Guess what all CAP leaders can be great without a degree. 

      15+ years in LE I find that highly doubtful considering how quickly you assume and speculate on something with nothing substantial to stand on.  I bet more than a few defense attorney's ripped you apart. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 18, 2013, 06:35:10 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:59:54 AM
      BTW, do you still get to enlist at E-4 with a degree in the Air Force?

      Don't know. That's something to ask a Recruiter since the rules change regularly depending on "the needs of the service".
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:20:08 AM
      I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

      And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.
      The Peace Corps' web site says that 90% of their positions required a BA degree.

      Having said that....just as you said...we are not the military.....nor are we any other volunteer organization.....ergo we are all out there on our own.

      I agree that we should not require degrees for membership.   But we are now requiring one for our National Commander......and by extension it should be highly, highly desirable for our Wing Commanders and up (as they are the pool that the National Commander is selected from.)

      Also a little note on using the USAF and other military models.

      The Navy is requiring Associate degrees to be eligible for their CPO ranks.   It is highly encourage for USAF SNCO looking to make E8 an E9 to have the CCAF degree.  USAF officers looking to make major and Lt Col are "highly encouraged" to have their Masters.

      We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

      So....maybe....just maybe requiring a degree to progress up the ranks is not a bad thing.  No degree.....it does not mean you can't contribute....but maybe you will never be a wing commander.

      As for "data" showing having a degree makes you a better leader?   I don't think that exists.....but I do know that many, many businesses (including the military) think that having a formal education is something that they want in their leaders.   Else they would not run those expensive academies, or have ROTC scholarships, or tuition assistance.  And while most jobs will advertise "a BA or XX years experience" I know that most head hunters will take the degreed candidate over the "work experience" candidate 9 out of 10 times.

      So....my bottom line is that this is mostly a mountain out of a mole hill.  The would will not end IF.......IF CAP starts requiring formal education (beyond what we already requires) for officer (or some officer) ranks.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 18, 2013, 07:32:59 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM

      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      Yes, actually it is a limited experience in terms of CAP.

      Time after time you have been asked why CAP needs to require a degree, and time and time again you fall back on the same responses.

      You say "because the real military does" - great, they sure do. They also are paying those members, for the vast majority of officers they are paying for the higher education as well. CAP can't do that... ever. Not a valid argument. Next.

      You say "a degree makes you a better leader" - really? Prove it. You are spewing the classic PR line that has come about in this nation from the higher education industrial complex that sprouts like crab grass on a bad golf course. Fair disclosure, I bought into that line for years and years, heck I even spent my GI bill plus more for degrees. It's a falsehood.

      You have no grasp, depth or understanding of how even the most basic unit in CAP operates. You have years of military experience, that is great, if you ever become a real member that will help you with the cadet side of the house on Tuesday nights.

      You have years worth of LE experience, that's great, it may or may not help. Most likely won't because well, we're not an LE agency.

      You have experience that (more than likely) the majority of CAP members already have. Become active in a local unit for a couple years, then come back and tell us how to run the organization. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 06:11:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM
      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
      You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
      You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

      Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevant experience trying to make things "better" for
      people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

      Interesting analogy.

      AHHH! The Grand Poobah of the Sunshine Brigade! Good evening Sir... nice to hear from you again.  ;D

      Question: CAP at some level reports directly to an USAF Command, correct?

      And that USAF Command gets dictate to CAP certain things that effect uniforms, awards, training, etc. without CAP input, correct?

      So it's entirely possible for a USAF Officer to be assigned to that command either as the actual commander or part of that command's S or G Staff that has "zero personal involvement or relevant experience", correct?

      So you do have "Outsiders" trying to make things "better" for CAP... likely quite a bit.  ;)

      We're just having a discussion Eclipse... don't take it sooo personal.  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 08:10:55 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 06:23:06 AM
      Please show me statistical data that shows having a degree makes you a better leader?  I resist change for the sake of change and no one has yet to provide one solid ounce of proof or data that would show that having a degree makes one a better leader and therefor would make one a better leader in the organization. 

      Requiring a degree to advance in this organization would result in an exodus of qualified people to execute the mission.  Guess what all CAP leaders can be great without a degree. 

      15+ years in LE I find that highly doubtful considering how quickly you assume and speculate on something with nothing substantial to stand on.  I bet more than a few defense attorney's ripped you apart.

      Never said it makes you a better leader, what I said is requiring a degree for Captain and higher leadership would align you more properly with your equal grade Military counterparts and would meet the educational expectations of the public at large when someone (CAP or otherwise) claims the rank of CPT, MAJ, LTC, COL, BG or MG.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 08:14:11 AM
      Quote from: lordmonar on November 18, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
      Quote from: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 05:20:08 AM
      I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

      And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.
      The Peace Corps' web site says that 90% of their positions required a BA degree.

      Having said that....just as you said...we are not the military.....nor are we any other volunteer organization.....ergo we are all out there on our own.

      I agree that we should not require degrees for membership.   But we are now requiring one for our National Commander......and by extension it should be highly, highly desirable for our Wing Commanders and up (as they are the pool that the National Commander is selected from.)

      Also a little note on using the USAF and other military models.

      The Navy is requiring Associate degrees to be eligible for their CPO ranks.   It is highly encourage for USAF SNCO looking to make E8 an E9 to have the CCAF degree.  USAF officers looking to make major and Lt Col are "highly encouraged" to have their Masters.

      We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

      So....maybe....just maybe requiring a degree to progress up the ranks is not a bad thing.  No degree.....it does not mean you can't contribute....but maybe you will never be a wing commander.

      As for "data" showing having a degree makes you a better leader?   I don't think that exists.....but I do know that many, many businesses (including the military) think that having a formal education is something that they want in their leaders.   Else they would not run those expensive academies, or have ROTC scholarships, or tuition assistance.  And while most jobs will advertise "a BA or XX years experience" I know that most head hunters will take the degreed candidate over the "work experience" candidate 9 out of 10 times.

      So....my bottom line is that this is mostly a mountain out of a mole hill.  The would will not end IF.......IF CAP starts requiring formal education (beyond what we already requires) for officer (or some officer) ranks.

      Thank you for an excellent and well thought out response!

      Glad to see not everyone on CAPTALK is resistant discussing suggestions of change.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 18, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
      Quote from: NCRblues on November 18, 2013, 07:32:59 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM

      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      Yes, actually it is a limited experience in terms of CAP.

      Time after time you have been asked why CAP needs to require a degree, and time and time again you fall back on the same responses.

      You say "because the real military does" - great, they sure do. They also are paying those members, for the vast majority of officers they are paying for the higher education as well. CAP can't do that... ever. Not a valid argument. Next.

      You say "a degree makes you a better leader" - really? Prove it. You are spewing the classic PR line that has come about in this nation from the higher education industrial complex that sprouts like crab grass on a bad golf course. Fair disclosure, I bought into that line for years and years, heck I even spent my GI bill plus more for degrees. It's a falsehood.

      You have no grasp, depth or understanding of how even the most basic unit in CAP operates. You have years of military experience, that is great, if you ever become a real member that will help you with the cadet side of the house on Tuesday nights.

      You have years worth of LE experience, that's great, it may or may not help. Most likely won't because well, we're not an LE agency.

      You have experience that (more than likely) the majority of CAP members already have. Become active in a local unit for a couple years, then come back and tell us how to run the organization.

      You wear a pseudo USAF uniform... the uninformed public at large equates CAP to the USAF... therefore they have an educational expectation of what a USAF officer should have... ergo they have an educational expectation of what a CAP officer should have.

      I never said a degree makes you better leader, all I'm saying is you would be better as an institution and an organization IF you, as as a whole, meet those public expectations.   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 18, 2013, 08:37:11 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM
      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      Wait.  What?

      I don't think I've ever seen a volunteer fire department require a degree for their officer ranks.  Advanced firefighting training, yet, but not a college degree.

      Quote from: lordmonar on November 18, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
      We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

      If we're going to require CAP officers to hold the same requirement as USAF officers, then they should have the same privileges and pay when they're on duty, much like Reserve officers.  It's only fair, right?  I mean, that's where we're going with this, right?

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 08:10:55 AM
      Never said it makes you a better leader, what I said is requiring a degree for Captain and higher leadership would align you more properly with your equal grade Military counterparts and would meet the educational expectations of the public at large when someone (CAP or otherwise) claims the rank of CPT, MAJ, LTC, COL, BG or MG.

      So, I say "If they tell me I can't progress in the officer ranks because I don't have a degree, I'm leaving the organization" and I'm mocked by some because, hey, CAP rank doesn't mean squat.  But then those same people tell me that CAP rank is important enough to restrict it to certain classes that, by total coincidence I'm sure, includes them.  Color me confused.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: NCRblues on November 18, 2013, 08:41:48 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 08:23:21 AM



      You wear a pseudo USAF uniform... the uninformed public at large equates CAP to the USAF... therefore they have an educational expectation of what a USAF officer should have... ergo they have an educational expectation of what a CAP officer should have.

      I never said a degree makes you better leader, all I'm saying is you would be better as an institution and an organization IF you, as as a whole, meet those public expectations.

      Oh, you mean the greatly informed and intelligent American public? The ones that cant tell the difference between a soldier, sailor, airman or marine? Those people?

      You mean the same people that when you say "I'm actually in the Air Force" (after calling you army guy or GI joe) ask what aircraft you fly?

      The American public has no idea what any education requirements are for any part of the military. I mean come on, to the average American every Air Force member flies a fighter jet, every sailor mans a battleship or sub, every marine is a stone cold killer and every army guy shoots big guns...

      The American public is soooooo lost about ANY government or military items.

      For instance, take a look at the (very funny) obamacare vs ACA videos on YouTube...





      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 08:43:28 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 06:11:51 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM
      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
      You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
      You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

      Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevant experience trying to make things "better" for
      people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

      Interesting analogy.

      AHHH! The Grand Poobah of the Sunshine Brigade! Good evening Sir... nice to hear from you again.  ;D

      Question: CAP at some level reports directly to an USAF Command, correct?

      And that USAF Command gets dictate to CAP certain things that effect uniforms, awards, training, etc. without CAP input, correct?

      So it's entirely possible for a USAF Officer to be assigned to that command either as the actual commander or part of that command's S or G Staff that has "zero personal involvement or relevant experience", correct?

      So you do have "Outsiders" trying to make things "better" for CAP... likely quite a bit.  ;)

      We're just having a discussion Eclipse... don't take it sooo personal.  ;D

      Actually, no.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Garibaldi on November 18, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
      All I know is this. My father did not have a college education, yet he learned quite a bit on his own and became, if not an expert in his particular field, pretty darn close, and did pretty well at AT&T and later at being a police officer. My grandfather did not have a high school education but having grown up on a farm and been a mechanic most of his life he could make a tool if he couldn't find one. I, on the other hand, have a mostly-completed college education and am no better off for having spent the 5 1/2 years in college, either money-wise or career-wise. The only thing I have to show for it is a rather large vocabulary and nearly $80,000 in student loans.

      When I heard that the AF was requiring a BA or BS to enroll in their distance learning courses, I said fine. I'll top out at Major, because I do not want to nor do I have the time or money to go to RSC or any of the other schools required for promotion to LTC. It is a personal choice.

      If CAP and the USAF come to some sort of an agreement regarding the necessity of a college degree for becoming an officer, that's fine. Dandy. Great. Won't affect me one bit. I will be happy to trade in the oak leaves for SSGT stripes. I can still do my job and be effective at it.

      To your point, having a college degree does not confer on one the ability to lead or command. My stepmother's father was an enlisted man and earned his Captain on the battlefield. No degree, just a willingness to do what needed to be done at the time. And that's the point here. A willingness to do what needs to be done. I know plenty of officers, we all do, who are shining examples of what CAP is, and others who are a shining example of horses' posteriors. Unfortunately, the latter sometimes outweighs the former in the public eye.

      Rank in CAP is fairly meaningless beyond a level of competence. It doesn't correspond to anything in the military other than the shape of a symbol. Second Lieutenants commanding Lieutenant Colonels at the unit level would never happen in the Air Force. It's just a fact of life that we have a grade structure based ON the military but not based IN military doctrine. We don't go to OCS or a service academy or ROTC to get our butter bars. We wait 6 months, take a few courses and get promoted. If someone happens to have qualifications that permit them a higher grade, then yeah, instant first lieutenant or captain after level one. Twenty-one year old Spaatz award cadets get to be Captain upon turning senior. It doesn't work that way in the military. To compare our way of life to the military structure is just wrong. We aren't held to the same standard because we are civilian volunteers. Yes, we are perceived as one and the same by Joe Public, but that's where we can use that opportunity as a teachable moment.

      Just my two cents. I may be wrong on some things, and I will admit it, as always, if called on it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ColonelJack on November 18, 2013, 11:00:52 AM
      ^  This.  +1000!

      Well said, my friend.

      Jack
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 04:35:23 PM
      Much has been argued whether having a degree makes one a better leader.  We are affiliated with the air Force.  I would proffer that the Air Force has determined through some legitimate means that a degree in some way makes a person more likely to be a better leader that a non-degree holder or they wouldn't require same of thheir own.  Make sense?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: abdsp51 on November 18, 2013, 04:48:44 PM
      There is one degree the AF in general cares about and thats the CCAF.  Holding a degree does not mean one will be a better leader in any aspect.  The AF requires a BA/BS to be commissioned, just like the rest of the services.  So far no one has offered any data to prove the effectiveness of a degree vs non degree holders when it comes to leadership.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 05:11:10 PM
      And if you think a degree is valueless, why do you think they require them??  I propose the military requires degrees of their Officers, ie, leadership, due to some emperical reason they have determined.  What is your theory that they are useless based upon??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: DennisH on November 18, 2013, 05:21:29 PM
      Is this still ten thread about the new/not so new NCO program? Kind of hard to tell with all the but hurt. There are some very good points and ideas here but they are getting diluted by the self importance. Just saying.....
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 05:21:38 PM
      We.
      Are.
      Not.
      The.
      Military.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AlphaSigOU on November 18, 2013, 05:50:14 PM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 05:21:38 PM
      We.
      Are.
      Not.
      The.
      Military.
      WANTM!  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on November 18, 2013, 06:03:06 PM
      Has a post ever reached 1,000? Can the software handle it?
      I've seen code where the programmer decided this number might top out at 500 I'll make it number(3)* just to be sure.

      *(limit 1000 for the non-programmers out there)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: JeffDG on November 18, 2013, 06:10:16 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 05:11:10 PM
      And if you think a degree is valueless, why do you think they require them??  I propose the military requires degrees of their Officers, ie, leadership, due to some emperical reason they have determined.  What is your theory that they are useless based upon??
      That's not what he's saying.  He's saying that nobody here has provided any empirical evidence that they do make people better leaders.

      For a long time, to become an officer in the Royal Navy you had to be born into the aristocracy...just because people do something in a particular way doesn't mean there's a good reason for it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 18, 2013, 06:14:47 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM
      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      I've been in the Fire Service both Career and Volunteer for over twenty years.  On the Career side, you could be a Battalion Chief with nothing more than a GED anything Higher than Battalion Chief did require a degree.  On the Volunteer side, I've never seen any positive education requirement for any position.  Heck, In some parts of the state, they've changed the course syllabus to not be too challenging and they offer test proctors who will read you the certification test in the event that you "don't read so good".  I've seen volunteer Fire Chief whose only qualification was that they were elected by the members of their company.  About 80% of Fire service throughout the United States is provided by volunteers...I could see a huge impact if there was a positive education requirement.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: sarmed1 on November 18, 2013, 06:35:00 PM
      A degree does not make you a better leader.  Being an better leader makes you a better leader.  Honestly (and this is one of my AF butt hurt points)  A degree (or more specifically the work and exposure to the different subject material of the courses incompossing the degree) is part of what makes you a better manager.  Manager and Leader are not the same thing (though commonly intertwined especially, in the USAF) CAP being what it is (or what it has become depending on your perception) would be better served by better managers. 
      Sure you can have the same knowedge and abilities as a person with a degree and have nothing more than a GED; however when creating a standard to make it easier to judge people coming in the door, or create some otherwise baseline starting point for assessing the minimal knowledge level its easier to use someones already pre-established criteria than to have to invent your own or otherwise do a detailed assessment on every candidate before they even walk in the door.

      There are numerous proffession that do it that way (and there were times that they did not, but have changed for likely the above reason)
      Frefighter, police officer, paramedic/EMT and nurse are some that come to mind based on my experience (given not everywhere, but many)
      For the record the degree requirements for any of the above proffessions vary greatly from organization to organization.  But I have never found any police or fire department that requires volunteers/reserves to have a college degree to be an officer (Shuman14) some paid depratments yes; and even then on the fire side thats usually only chief officers.  Police Depts: well there are some that require at min an associates just to be a regualr officer....

      For those arguing they have had good leaders (specifically military) that have no degree; were those NCO's or Officer's?  (to loop back)  IF NCO's, that is in theory exactly the point expressed in trying to re-establish an effective NCO corps in CAP (at least that's what I gathered out of it)  And I guess the argument then (or has become) if NCO's are the frontline supervisor/leader, what do officers do? If NCO's are doing the bulk of the work and the low level supervising do you need as many officers?  (this comes back to the concept of "slots/billets")  If you dont need as many, than having a more stringent requirement to become one is not as earth ending an idea as it sounds...

      Of course despite the 1000's of replies this is still really a mute point.  a-its all conjecture-no program details on either end seem to be forthcoming.  b-I still dont think this was that big of a problem in CAP (lack of NCO corps...) so it still sits as a big solution to only one small problem (NCO's that cant promote) the rest is the proverbial solution looking for a problem.   

      As with everything else in this world there is and I imagine there would be in this fantasy scenario, an exception to every rule:  If you really are running things at a field grade officer level (by scope of importantce, number of people, budget level etc) but have no college degree and stand to be "demoted" and no longer eligible to be as "important"  I am sure someone would come up with a waiver process.

      mk
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 06:53:29 PM
      (http://blogs.militarytimes.com/flightlines/files/2013/11/0310-copy.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: RiverAux on November 18, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
      Most volunteer fire departments in my state only make their folks take about 12 hours of training and they're good for the rest of their volunteer firefighter career -- and they only do that to get state money.  Never heard of one requiring a degree to be an officer. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
      So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?   
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 18, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
      So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?

      No, what we're saying is that the Civil Air Patrol has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 18, 2013, 07:36:46 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
      So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?

      Only history I suppose. field commisions are not common anymore, but that used to happen as well.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Ned on November 18, 2013, 07:44:03 PM


      Quote from: Garibaldi on November 18, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
      I may be wrong on some things, and I will admit it, as always, if called on it.

      Major, you seem like a reasonable person, so let's discuss this a bit.

      QuoteAll I know is this. My father did not have a college education, yet he learned quite a bit on his own and became, if not an expert in his particular field, pretty darn close, and did pretty well at AT&T and later at being a police officer. My grandfather did not have a high school education but having grown up on a farm and been a mechanic most of his life he could make a tool if he couldn't find one.

      Your father and grandfather sound like wonderful people.  I honestly wish I had known them.

      But if you will forgive me, I must point out that your descriptions of them do not indicate that they held leadership positions in their fields.  (They may have, but we can't tell from your description.)


      QuoteI, on the other hand, have a mostly-completed college education and am no better off for having spent the 5 1/2 years in college, either money-wise or career-wise. The only thing I have to show for it is a rather large vocabulary and nearly $80,000 in student loans.

      I can only commend you on sticking to your education.  It took me a little over 6 years to finish my BA, so I understand what it can be like. 

      But, again, if you will forgive me, it is perhaps not very surprising that you have not enjoyed the benefits of your degree before you have completed it.  I could imagine a medical student just before graduation saying the very same thing.  The whole point of education -- whether it is a high school diploma, a university degree, or a trade school -- is what happens after you finish your degree, not before.

      I hope that you will be able to finish reasonably soon and begin your post-college career, whatever that may be.

      QuoteWhen I heard that the AF was requiring a BA or BS to enroll in their distance learning courses, I said fine. I'll top out at Major, because I do not want to nor do I have the time or money to go to RSC or any of the other schools required for promotion to LTC. It is a personal choice.

      I completely agree.  All of our service in CAP is the result of admirable personal choices, often made while juggling family, church responsibilities, and careers.  As others have pointed out, ending your CAP service as a SMWOG is just as honorable as finishing as a Major General.  All have donated considerable time and treasure to serve others.  I sincerely thank you for your service to date, and hope you have found it rewarding.

      QuoteIf CAP and the USAF come to some sort of an agreement regarding the necessity of a college degree for becoming an officer, that's fine. Dandy. Great. Won't affect me one bit. I will be happy to trade in the oak leaves for SSGT stripes. I can still do my job and be effective at it.

      Again, completely agree.

      QuoteTo your point, having a college degree does not confer on one the ability to lead or command. My stepmother's father was an enlisted man and earned his Captain on the battlefield. No degree, just a willingness to do what needed to be done at the time. And that's the point here. A willingness to do what needs to be done. I know plenty of officers, we all do, who are shining examples of what CAP is, and others who are a shining example of horses' posteriors. Unfortunately, the latter sometimes outweighs the former in the public eye.

      As my Army bosses used to tell me, "the needs of the service are the needs of the service, don't think too hard about it." 

      I can only admire the courage and ability of anyone who has earned a battlefield commission.  It is indeed a rare honor.

      But it does not provide much evidence that both the Army and our AF colleagues "got it wrong" when they insist on a college degree for commissioned officers.  After all, Uncle Sam could save himself a fortune by simply doing away with the service academies and ROTC, and just allow promising enlisted soldiers to complete OCS.  I've little doubt that such a plan has been considered and rejected several times before.

      The basic problem with the argument "prove to me that a college degree measurably improves a leader's competence" is that it asserts that education is unrelated to leadership.  If that is so, we have no business requiring a GED for CAP officers.  And I have absolutely no doubt that we will be able to find great leaders who little or no formal education at all.  Sgt. York, Abe Lincoln, etc.

      Indeed, I cannot prove that the ability to read and write measurably improves a leaders competence.  Nor can I find a study that correlates age with leadership ability.  Why on earth does CAP require flight officers to be 18 and lieutenants to be at least 21?  Outrageous.

      Prove to me that a high-speed 13 year-old high school freshman cannot perform the duties of the assistant personnel officer as well as the 62 year-old CAP captain currently performing them.

      Sigh.

      (I fully understand that the argument works both ways - if a AA or BA should be required for 2d lieutenant, why not make our organization that much more high speed and require an MA? Or a Ph.d for field grade?)

      QuoteRank in CAP is fairly meaningless beyond a level of competence. It doesn't correspond to anything in the military other than the shape of a symbol.

      Yes and no.  For instance, you can't be considered for National Commander unless you are an O6 and above.  Normally you cannot serve on the national volunteer staff until you make major. 

      But without some sort of "CAP UCMJ," CAP captains (who are not in command) can't order CAP lieutenants to do or not to do things.  We all get that part.

      (But in over 20 years of my Army career, I'm having trouble recalling any instance where a superior officer not in my chain of command ever ordered me to do anything either.  Just lucky, I guess.)

      And I think we all must acknowledge that CAP is not the armed forces, and cannot simply adopt the AF rules for a host of practical reasons.  We are indeed volunteers.

      But it is worth remembering that CAP leaders are responsible for caring and safeguarding well over a hundred million dollars worth of property entrusted to us by the taxpayers.  Our leaders do give orders that send members into dangerous situations when lives are on the line.  And we are entrusted with the care and training of tens of thousands of our nation's most valuable resources -- our cadets.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting standards and creating training to make our leaders the best that they can be.

      Reasonable minds can and do certainly differ on whether we should require a college education for some or all of our leaders.  As you can see from the last 100 posts, there is no consensus.

      At least yet.  The discussion here is part of a larger discussion that CAP should be having about our professional development program.

      Thank you again for your service.

      Ned Lee
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 18, 2013, 08:52:34 PM
      I have an A.A.S. with honours (3.735 GPA) and was named to Phi Theta Kappa.  It is thoroughly irrelevant to CAP.

      My dad never finished high school but had "street smarts" like no-one I ever knew...not to mention being a brilliant mechanic.

      My grandfather never made it past grade school but he was a renowned blacksmith in his area.

      My grandmother never made it past grade school but what she knew about farming/animal husbandry probably would have filled several textbooks.

      Ergo...I don't think a degree is necessarily relevant to CAP.

      In fact, I don't see why it's required for military aircrew (Army WO's aside).  Just having a four-year degree will not make someone more or less skilled in flying.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 09:01:51 PM
      My point is that the military thinks a degree makes for better leaders (Officers).  Why wouldn't that policy apply to CAP??  What makes us different in our need for good leaders??
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 09:34:36 PM
      We are not the military.

      We do not lead people in combat.

      Our grade has no inherent or implied authority, nor are decisions of consequence made under duress by officers (per se).

      We do not pay our people, in fact literally the reverse.

      The skills needed for success in CAP can be taught on the timeline of a normal CC's career, assuming we're following our own guidelines.

      Having a degree doesn't make you a better leader, or even a leader, it makes you a formally educated person. Nothing more, in and of itself.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 18, 2013, 09:45:42 PM
      Good grief.... cops and firefighters dont need degrees but CAP members do?  A degree has nothing to do with your leadership potential or your motivation to volunteer. 
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: unmlobo on November 18, 2013, 10:11:23 PM
      I have 2 degrees, BA in History (09) and an AAS in Weather Technology (CCAF 13) and am working on my Masters.  Oh and I am a SrA in the Air Force.  I feel that this shows no measure of how much or the quality of a leader I am.  It shows I care about furthering my education and sometime down the road expounding my knowledge upon others.    As for the role of an NCO (I know this is from Big Blue, however the idea can be carried to CAP) according to AFI 36-2618:

      2.2.1.
      Tactical Expertise Level: This level of leadership is predominantly direct and face-
      to-face. It normally applies to Airman Basic through Technical Sergeant. At the tactical expertise level, junior
      enlisted Airmen and NCOs perfect their primary occupational skills and develop their knowledge of
      Air Force institutional competencies. They are trained, complete Professional Military Education
      (PME), earn their 5- and 7-skill levels, and often complete their Community College of the Air Force
      (CCAF) degree. They strive to become the best technicians and team members possible. As they
      increase in rank, they also begin to train others and serve as first line supervisors and section leaders.

      The primary focus at the tactical expertise level is accomplishing the mission as effectively and
      efficiently as possible using available personnel and resources. 

      NCOs are the trainers/front line leaders and in CAP they should be used as such.  They should be the Subject Matter Experts for their Specialty Track or area such as GT or base operations.  A degree should play no relevance into what position they hold.   
      If and when I make Staff Sergeant I am considering trading my railroad track for stripes in CAP.    Just my 2 cents.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Storm Chaser on November 18, 2013, 10:26:32 PM
      Many members here keep reminding us that CAP is not the real military. That is obviously true and can't be argued. But if we're not the real military and should not be held to the same standards and requirements, then why do we need similar or equivalent officer grade titles and insignias? If the expectation of a Maj or Lt Col in CAP is different from that of the military, then do we really need Majs and Lt Cols wearing similar insignias in CAP? Why not have something different; something that fits our reality and needs and sets us apart from the real military?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 18, 2013, 11:26:41 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 09:01:51 PM
      My point is that the military thinks a degree makes for better leaders (Officers).  Why wouldn't that policy apply to CAP??  What makes us different in our need for good leaders??

      Well, actually the Military thinks that a degree makes people more educated and that the military leadership training makes a leader.    I would think that most of the Services think that they make pretty good leaders both with and without a degree.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 18, 2013, 11:29:23 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 18, 2013, 10:26:32 PM
      Why not have something different; something that fits our reality and needs and sets us apart from the real military?

      I have suggested quasi-AFROTC in the past...to much flame and consternation.

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008356700_MED.jpg)
      SMWOG

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008356800_MED.jpg)
      2nd Lieutenant

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008356900_MED.jpg)
      1st Lieutenant

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008357000_MED.jpg)
      Captain

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008357100_MED.jpg)
      Major

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/00000008357200.jpg)
      Lieutenant Colonel

      (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008357300_MED.jpg)
      Colonel

      I haven't found any equivalent yet for FO or General grades.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: arajca on November 18, 2013, 11:30:39 PM
      Oh, Navy style boards.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on November 18, 2013, 11:35:20 PM
      Silver Naval / CG Officer pattern?  :o

      So switch to the traditions of the sea related services?

      Those of us in the aviator combo would look even more like airline pilots.

      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 18, 2013, 11:42:40 PM
      You could use those...but even services that use the Striped insignia still use the rank devices that we currently use as well.

      Maybe VG could embroider the Propeller above the Stripes in the same fashion that you would see navy Line Officers with the Star and Coast Guard officers with a Shield.   >:D

      Also, in what CAP corporate Uniform would warrant the wear of shoulder boards?
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 18, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
      Quote from: arajca on November 18, 2013, 11:30:39 PM
      Oh, Navy style boards.

      No, Air Force ROTC.

      The Navy doesn't have trademark on shoulder board rank.

      CGAux:
      (http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/images/ADSO%20and%20D-AD%20Hard.jpg)

      Royal Australian Air Force:
      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/RAAF_O4_rank.png)

      Civilian Airline Aircrew:
      (http://www.airlineuniforms.net/images/Pictures/shoulderboards/shouldb12.jpg)

      Royal Danish Air Force:
      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/RDAF_2nd_Lt.svg/250px-RDAF_2nd_Lt.svg.png)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 19, 2013, 12:02:15 AM
      Thank you but no. Prefer the status-quo. At 58, too set in my ways to see another upheaval...

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 01:48:40 AM
      Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2013, 06:53:29 PM
      (http://blogs.militarytimes.com/flightlines/files/2013/11/0310-copy.jpg)

      :clap:

      Too darn funny!

      In the Force... strong you are.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SARDOC on November 19, 2013, 01:50:28 AM
      ^^^ It would be funnier if it wasn't also true.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Flying Pig on November 19, 2013, 01:55:59 AM
      A degree has no bearing on leadership potential.  Being a Marine makes you a leader.   There..... I said what everyone else was thinking.  You can thank me later you bunch o' nasty Squids, Army Dogs, Air Swine and Shallow water Coasties!!!
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: arajca on November 19, 2013, 01:58:36 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 18, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
      Quote from: arajca on November 18, 2013, 11:30:39 PM
      Oh, Navy style boards.

      No, Air Force ROTC.

      The Navy doesn't have trademark on shoulder board rank.

      To the vast unwashed masses, aka the public, those are Navy boards. They do not have a hint of a clue what AFROTC is or wears.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MSG Mac on November 19, 2013, 02:45:07 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 18, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
      Quote from: arajca on November 18, 2013, 11:30:39 PM
      Oh, Navy style boards.

      No, Air Force ROTC.

      The Navy doesn't have trademark on shoulder board rank.

      CGAux:
      (http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/images/ADSO%20and%20D-AD%20Hard.jpg)

      Royal Australian Air Force:
      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/RAAF_O4_rank.png)

      Civilian Airline Aircrew:
      (http://www.airlineuniforms.net/images/Pictures/shoulderboards/shouldb12.jpg)

      Royal Danish Air Force:
      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/RDAF_2nd_Lt.svg/250px-RDAF_2nd_Lt.svg.png)
      [/quote

      The USAF tried Sleeve stripes in the early 1990's. After everyone bought them, the CofS was replaced and the first order of the new CofS was to get rid of the sleeve stripes. Besides which, the cost of those stripes is about $10 each, plus every time one gets promoted, you wind up having to remove and replace them. Check VG's prices for Coast Guard or Navy Shoulder Board or sleeve grade. VERY EXPENSIVE.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 02:46:22 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 18, 2013, 11:29:23 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 18, 2013, 10:26:32 PM
      Why not have something different; something that fits our reality and needs and sets us apart from the real military?

      I have suggested quasi-AFROTC in the past...to much flame and consternation.

      How about Star Trek ranks (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks) instead?

      We got Klingons off the starboard bow, Capt'n!   >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: a2capt on November 19, 2013, 03:17:51 AM
      Boldly going forward 'cause we can't find reverse.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Sorry, the new 39-1 says you have to wear a maroon shirt to match the "new" grade epaulets.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: PHall on November 19, 2013, 04:40:44 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Sorry, the new 39-1 says you have to wear a maroon shirt to match the "new" grade epaulets.

      Right over your head!!!   :clap:

      Watch the original Star Trek sometime. 99% of the guys who got killed wore Red shirts.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on November 19, 2013, 04:42:57 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 19, 2013, 04:40:44 AM
      Watch the original Star Trek sometime. 99% of the guys who got killed wore Red shirts.

      Collectively known as Ensign SoonToBeDead
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 19, 2013, 04:40:44 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Sorry, the new 39-1 says you have to wear a maroon shirt to match the "new" grade epaulets.

      Right over your head!!!   :clap:

      Watch the original Star Trek sometime. 99% of the guys who got killed wore Red shirts.

      Oh, it wasn't over my head.  Not at all.  Just trying to put a CAP-spin on it.

      (http://www.motivationals.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-12611.jpg)

      "taH pagh taHbe'!"
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: MisterCD on November 19, 2013, 05:19:40 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 02:46:22 AM
      Quote from: CyBorg on November 18, 2013, 11:29:23 PM
      Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 18, 2013, 10:26:32 PM
      Why not have something different; something that fits our reality and needs and sets us apart from the real military?

      I have suggested quasi-AFROTC in the past...to much flame and consternation.

      How about Star Trek ranks (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks) instead?

      We got Klingons off the starboard bow, Capt'n!   >:D

      If you saw the original proposed World War II CAP ranks, you would think they were props from Star Trek.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 05:33:35 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Wearing's fine... just don't beam down in one.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 05:35:43 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
      "taH pagh taHbe'!"

      'To be or not to be.'  ;D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 05:48:34 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 19, 2013, 05:35:43 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
      "taH pagh taHbe'!"

      'To be or not to be.'  ;D

      My wife got me this last Christmas:

      (http://store.hermanstreet.com/images/products/n10123l.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 05:53:04 AM
      NICE!  ;D

      You should get her one of these:

      (http://www.mycdlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/startrek_uniform_red1.jpg)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 05:55:59 AM
      BTW, I think this just became a uniform thread.  >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 05:56:50 AM
      I'm more concerned she's trying to drop a hint.

      If she asks me to wear that shirt before walking into a dark room, I'm out.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Shuman 14 on November 19, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 05:56:50 AM
      I'm more concerned she's trying to drop a hint.

      If she asks me to wear that shirt before walking into a dark room, I'm out.

      has she taken out any new life insurance plans... I'm just saying.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:02:18 AM
      Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.  ;)
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: wuzafuzz on November 19, 2013, 11:36:45 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 19, 2013, 04:40:44 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Sorry, the new 39-1 says you have to wear a maroon shirt to match the "new" grade epaulets.

      Right over your head!!!   :clap:

      Watch the original Star Trek sometime. 99% of the guys who got killed wore Red shirts.

      Oh, it wasn't over my head.  Not at all.  Just trying to put a CAP-spin on it.

      (http://www.motivationals.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-12611.jpg)

      "taH pagh taHbe'!"
      Wait a second, that red shirt doesn't have any stripes on the cuff of his sleeve.  He's not Ensign Ricky, he's either SMWOG Ricky (goner) or he's CAP NCO Ricky.  If the latter everything will be OK because he can do things "commissioned officers" (without a commission) can't master.  >:D
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: ColonelJack on November 19, 2013, 12:18:55 PM
      Quote from: wuzafuzz on November 19, 2013, 11:36:45 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
      Quote from: PHall on November 19, 2013, 04:40:44 AM
      Quote from: Panache on November 19, 2013, 04:37:16 AM
      Quote from: Al Sayre on November 19, 2013, 04:14:29 AM
      Just so I don't have to wear the red shirt...

      Sorry, the new 39-1 says you have to wear a maroon shirt to match the "new" grade epaulets.

      Right over your head!!!   :clap:

      Watch the original Star Trek sometime. 99% of the guys who got killed wore Red shirts.

      Oh, it wasn't over my head.  Not at all.  Just trying to put a CAP-spin on it.

      (http://www.motivationals.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-12611.jpg)

      "taH pagh taHbe'!"
      Wait a second, that red shirt doesn't have any stripes on the cuff of his sleeve.  He's not Ensign Ricky, he's either SMWOG Ricky (goner) or he's CAP NCO Ricky.  If the latter everything will be OK because he can do things "commissioned officers" (without a commission) can't master.  >:D

      No, he's Ensign Ricky.  Ensigns wore "officer" shirts without any braid.

      Jack
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 19, 2013, 01:16:02 PM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:57:28 AM
      Quote from: cap235629 on November 18, 2013, 05:27:52 AM
      Quote from: shuman14 on November 18, 2013, 05:26:25 AM


      FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

      In what universe?

      You make overly broad statements that are based on your limited experience.

      23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited.  ::)

      Nah. But I'll play along. If you can name 3 police reserve programs that have such a requirement.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 19, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
      Quote from: Panache on November 18, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
      Quote from: AirAux on November 18, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
      So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?

      No, what we're saying is that the Civil Air Patrol has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers.

      True. But, for an interesting sidebar - consider the countries, including some of our major Allies, which have no degree requirement for commissioning, flying airplanes, leading battalions, captaining ships...and they don't seem to be suffering for it.
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 19, 2013, 01:42:09 PM
      Ah, but the United States is the leader of all.We have to set the example.

      >:D

      Flyer
      Title: Re: NCO Program Launched
      Post by: Panache on November 19, 2013, 02:22:50 PM
      Quote from: SarDragon on November 19, 2013, 09:02:18 AM
      Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.  ;)

      Ya kanna change da laws of physics!   ;)