Pretty cool. I know we have talked about technology in the air from time to time but just saw this hit the wire. Pretty neat.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.28a184296dda6208bfa99078cd9b334d.f1&show_article=1
I think we are only seeing the beginning of what the iPad will do for pilots, I strongly believe that CAP should adopt iPads with satellite internet hookup for the flight crews for realtime communication and data upload / download during missions.
The iPad has tons of potential that we are only beginning to see.
I'll believe it when I see it. I've heard this for years from the chief pilot's office. I would love to dump the heavy flight bag. They aren't doing it for the pilots, they want to save money. They spend millions a year on back injuries for pilots. I'm one of them. It will also save $1.4 million in fuel from the weight alone. They'll save a lot of money over the years. Money for my raise. ;)
Flew with a guy that had some georef software in his ipad. It used sectional charts and would track the aircraft position on the chart and approach plates. He used a bluetooth antenna to acquire the GPS position. It was really neat but also has some problems.
1. It is not moving map. The aircraft symbol moves so you can fly off the screen and need to find yourself again.
2. It was somewhat cumbersome (too big) in the 182 cockpit, not mounted anywhere. We had to put in in our lap and if you inadvertently touched the screen the picture went away and you had to go find it again. We got proficient at this after about 30 minutes. It was still annoying though.
3. Like all glass stuff, too much time eyes inside the cockpit. I can see a future briefing item for glass cockpit airplanes on who programs/looks at gps and who looks outisde.
Overall, it was a really handy tool. For CAP putting the aircraft on a Delorme map would be really helpful on searches. I understand this might be possible. Thinking of buying one just for its airborne uses.
I love technology and "cool toys" as much as the next guy. However, I temper that generally with something I was taught as a Cavalry man. Sure, the electronic map is neat, it's capable of doing a lot, it's even a better option more often than not than a paper map due to the abilities of the platform. It's also useless if its electronics fry out from getting soaked, the batteries go dead, there's no signal for whatever reason, a bullet goes through it (OK, that's not something we should be having to worry about, but it was for us back then), things like that.
Going to a tablet map app is fine, but I can't see giving up hard-copy maps completely... nor the ability and knowledge to properly use them.
In this case, each member of the flight crew are being issued one each. Unless there's an EMP, the chances of ALL of them running out of battery, getting fried, crashing, etc are pretty slim. While I think that during this transition period between paper and electronic that people should have an idea of how to use the paper maps, I've never had to use a sextant when I've gone anywhere, which was standard equipment "back in the day."
Eventually, the electronic stuff will replace all the paper stuff and nobody will need to understand how to grid a chart by hand, just like nobody needs to know how to use a slide-rule now.
Also, if the maps are connected to an autoupdate feature, it would be easy to almost have real-time updates on TFRs, changes to where towers are, etc identified right on the map.
If I had the option of carrying the iPad or 38 pounds of maps, the iPad wins, hands down - and I'm not even an Apple fanboy.
My condolences to United Pilots...
Now, since they will have their "approved portable electronic devices" turned on during takeoff and landing, can the passengers leave there's on as well and we all quit pretending they are causing interference with instruments?
I just want to read my book...
It is my understanding that these devices will not be turned on during take-off and landing, so of course the answer is no. :)
Does anyone here use a tablet in the air for CAP other than as a navigation device?
^ That'll be interesting in execution as anyone who has actually tried to turn an iPad "off" will know.
This sounds like a corporate arrangement to sell iPads that no one vetted with the tech people.
"It's gonna be awesome - all your charts and navigation information right here. No more paper!"
"Um, excuse me, about that..."
The whole "no electronic device thing" is ridiculous. For every person like me who actually follows the rules, there 5 who tuck their iPod
in their pocket and listen all the way to the terminal, and how many non-techies even know how to disable their wifi and bluetooth, etc.,
let alone actually do it?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2011, 09:20:20 PM
^ That'll be interesting in execution as anyone who has actually tried to turn an iPad "off" will know.
This sounds like a corporate arrangement to sell iPads that no one vetted with the tech people.
"It's gonna be awesome - all your charts and navigation information right here. No more paper!"
"Um, excuse me, about that..."
The whole "no electronic device thing" is ridiculous. For every person like me who actually follows the rules, there 5 who tuck their iPod
in their pocket and listen all the way to the terminal, and how many non-techies even know how to disable their wifi and bluetooth, etc.,
let alone actually do it?
Push the lock button for 3 seconds and confirm the action with a slide... Not that difficult, unless your idea of a typical airline passenger is a baboon (actually, that might not be far from the truth :angel:).
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 25, 2011, 12:17:46 AMPush the lock button for 3 seconds and confirm the action with a slide... Not that difficult, unless your idea of a typical airline passenger is a baboon (actually, that might not be far from the truth :angel:).
I have on more than once occasion encountered people who swore they rebooted their PCs when in fact all they did was turn the monitor off and back on. Yes, powering down an iPad is trivial to you and I, but to someone else the "sleep mode" is indistinguishable to powering down. All they know is that the later makes it take longer to "turn back on". :P
By the way, I have my B&N Nook Tablet set up for use in the airplane. I have VFR and IFR charts for my area (all current, some future-current), CAP documents, checklists, etc. I just never really encountered a time where I needed to pull it out. :-\
Personally? I think if you're not 100% familiar with the technology already inside your aircraft (G1000, GX55, CAP radio, etc.) then you probably shouldn't introduce more.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 25, 2011, 12:17:46 AMPush the lock button for 3 seconds and confirm the action with a slide... Not that difficult, unless your idea of a typical airline passenger is a baboon (actually, that might not be far from the truth :angel:).
Yes, and then touch any button or plug it into power, and it's likely to turn itself back on.
BTDT x's 5+ at expos.
United/continental pilots will not be using an iPad for navigation. It is just a book reader. They will be putting manuals on it. We carry large company manuals. Later on we hope to put our Jeppssen plates on it too. There will be no flight planning or navigation. We already have a moving map in the plane.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 24, 2011, 04:03:01 PM
Eventually, the electronic stuff will replace all the paper stuff and nobody will need to understand how to grid a chart by hand, just like nobody needs to know how to use a slide-rule now.
One of my college Computer Science profs had a small (maybe 6") slide rule in a frame on one of his bookcases. It had a small placard under it: "In case of emergency, break glass"
Anyone want to comment on the story I saw on Yahoo the other day about how automation in the cockpit is causing pilots to loose proficiency in basic flying skills. I realize it's the internet and I have no knowledge of how true/false this is. This just seemed to be the appropriate thread to comment on it.
Sure, its true, but that is ok. Flying is evolving. I don't shoot hand-flown, raw-data NDB approachs anymore. The Boeings I fly don't even have an ADF. I don't shoot VOR approaches either. If its not an ILS, we shoot RNAV over lays for other non-precision approaches with an artificial glideslope. We also do RNAV RNP approaches to .1 RNP. It's basically a CAT 1 ILS by satellite. Use of the autopilot is encouraged and sometimes required. We fly in VNAV and LNAV almost all the time. We have an automation policy in our manual. We basically use the highest level of automation available. The plane has autoland, autothrottles, autobrakes, autospoilers, etc. It's about money and safety. We are running a business and money and safety are very important.
Can I still fly a plane without all the fancy stuff? Yes. I'm not as good with the "old style" flying as I used to be, but it comes back fast. Pilots are not losing pilot skills, they are just using different ones. I like to hand fly the plane. I like to shoot the approach and land by hand. My company actually requires us to do more autolands, but I don't like to. Especially on a nice day. We get to practice lots of stuff in the simulators, including hand flying without autothrottles. It the autopilot doesn't work, it's ok, we won't crash. ;D
Radio and satellite navigation is causing pilots to lose proficiency in celestial navigation. Obviously a major danger to air travel! ;D
I can't remember how to use my sextant! ;)
seems stupid when they have onboard navigation systems and you wont get good satelite coverage in an airplane.
Quote from: mon876 on September 15, 2011, 10:36:49 PM
seems stupid when they have onboard navigation systems and you wont get good satelite coverage in an airplane.
What coverage? For what?
for gps for the navigation
Quote from: mon876 on September 15, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
for gps for the navigation
Why would they use it for nav?
??? dud that is what this whole article is about
Quote from: mon876 on September 15, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
??? dud that is what this whole article is about
No. The article is about using the IPAD to replace the paper charts and manuals that the pilots are currently required to carry.
No one is suggesting that the the IPAD is using GPS to actualy fly the aircraft......that would be redundant and stoopid!
Quote from: mon876 on September 15, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
dud that is what this whole article is about
Dude, did you read the article?
The primary reason for this is to replace the 38(ish) pounds of flight manuals with a 1.5 pound device...
...and Angry Birds, of course...
Quote from: Eclipse on September 15, 2011, 11:56:47 PM
Quote from: mon876 on September 15, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
dud that is what this whole article is about
Dude, did you read the article?
The primary reason for this is to replace the 38(ish) pounds of flight manuals with a 1.5 pound device...
...and Angry Birds, of course...
They make moving map apps for the fruit pad. That would be handy in a cockpit.
You can get decent GPS signal inside of an aircraft. My phone got good signal tossed on the seat across from me in the Gippsland.
Good signals aren't so easy to get inside an airliner. I take my GPS with me on trips, and it won't work unless it's right up against a window. The cockpit might be a little better, but I doubt it. And yes, I know that's not really relevant to the original discussion.
They make little bluetooth GPS receivers for just this purpose. Stick it way out on the dash, you should get at least 6 satelites
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 17, 2011, 02:20:30 AM
They make little bluetooth GPS receivers for just this purpose. Stick it way out on the dash, you should get at least 6 satelites
Active transmitter? Really?
Quote from: davidsinn on September 17, 2011, 03:52:01 AM
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 17, 2011, 02:20:30 AM
They make little bluetooth GPS receivers for just this purpose. Stick it way out on the dash, you should get at least 6 satelites
Active transmitter? Really?
I'm not sure what your question means...
There are at least 3 models I know of that are battery-powered GPS receivers, with a bluetooth transmitter that links to an iPad to provide GPS info to ForeFlight and other GPS-aware iPad apps. They are all small enough to place on the glareshield for a clear view of the sky, as needed for good reception.
What was your question/point?
Thom
The iPhone and iPad Gps is not good enough. The add on GPS works great. I have the Bad Elf with Foreflight on my iPhone.
Active transmitter
That's the big worry on airliners - that transmitters will cause interference to aircraft systems. That's why telephones, most radio receivers, and other devices that might have oscillators with enough power to be detectable beyond a specific distance, are not permitted at all, or, if determined to be safe enough, are permitted only above 10,000 feet. A Bluetooth device fits into that category.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 17, 2011, 07:34:51 AM
Active transmitter
That's the big worry on airliners - that transmitters will cause interference to aircraft systems. That's why telephones, most radio receivers, and other devices that might have oscillators with enough power to be detectable beyond a specific distance, are not permitted at all, or, if determined to be safe enough, are permitted only above 10,000 feet. A Bluetooth device fits into that category.
This.
A real tablet has a USB port that you can plug a GPS dongle into and not have an active transmitter inches from the avionics.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 17, 2011, 07:34:51 AM
Active transmitter
That's the big worry on airliners - that transmitters will cause interference to aircraft systems. That's why telephones, most radio receivers, and other devices that might have oscillators with enough power to be detectable beyond a specific distance, are not permitted at all, or, if determined to be safe enough, are permitted only above 10,000 feet. A Bluetooth device fits into that category.
Blah, blah, blah.
I know some studies have shown narrow situations where on-board electronics might have caused "something", or might not.
The reality is that 1/2 the people on the plane don't shut off their phones, and most laptops have their wifi screaming for
a handshake the whole time they are being used.
Bluetooth in the cockpit is probably pushing it, but I seriously doubt anyone's Kindle is going to make an airplane fly off course.
Most of this is people-management in that you don't want a bunch of loose crap floating around the cockpit, and more so the average, oblivious,
once-a-year flyer would take 20 minutes to get off the darned plane if they didn't have to shut down until they were ready to leave.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 17, 2011, 02:01:29 PMA real tablet has a USB port
This goes without saying.
My GPS plugs right into my iPhone, no USB needed. 8)