Senior Member Boundaries

[lostdude1664]

If a senior member has no prior non-romantic relationship with a cadet, can the senior member take a cadet to a restaurant to eat? Or would that be a boundary concern? Is reporting such behavior as a boundary concern a good practice?
Also is posting personal things via social media that are noncap related that may be more of an adult nature a boundary concern?

[abdsp51]

Alot of unknowns here.  And the last bit can be a concern and should be discussed.  Talk to your CC. 

[Brit_in_CAP]

The last line is of great concern.  Like abdsp51 said, talk to your CC - now!

Without the last line, you'd certainly be in the 'boundary concern' area; with it, the person concerned has near-certain crossed a line.

Talk to the CC!

(edited for spelling)

[arajca]

Too many unknowns to make a declarative statement.

IMHO, the first part crosses the line. The last line may or may not. Not CAP-related social media postings on non-CAP social media may seem icky or inappropriate, but that does not automatically make them violations. Then there is the issue of ages.

In general, and in this case, talk to your squadron commander, not cadet commander, if you suspect boundary violations.

[TheSkyHornet]

As said before, this requires a lot more information than what was provided.

The boundary between what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate is a grey area that spans all the way across. Certain situations can be appropriate and made to be inappropriate in the blink of an eye just by the wrong comment or gesture. A lot of it is defined unofficially as "Would this be okay conduct with someone who is underage?" or "Would this be okay conduct for a boss and subordinate?" What may be okay to one person might not be okay to another.

It is the responsibility of the person in a higher position of authority and knowledge to recognize when inappropriate behavior is being conducted, and to take all efforts to put a stop to it in a professional manner, documented if needed. Still, the subordinate has a personal responsibility, but not authority, to behave appropriately at all times and recognize inappropriate behavior and address it when necessary. The subordinate individual, in this case a cadet, is not legally responsible for an adult's behavior. That's why one is the adult and one is the minor.

Going to dinner might not necessarily be inappropriate if this is a non-CAP-related private matter that has been okay'd by the cadet's parents. But the senior member needs to know when it starts to even slightly become inappropriate. Are we talking about driving a cadet home and stopping by McDonald's on the way, or picking a cadet up and going to Outback then planning on taking the cadet home after?

To clarify, no prior romantic relationship doesn't mean one can't start, or be taken the wrong way.

This needs a lot more detail before anyone can make any accurate assumptions on the scenario you're asking about. Keep in mind, these are all just opinions, not necessarily official decisions or policies. Be aware of any possible cases of sexual assault or inappropriate conduct and report them accordingly if truly inappropriate behavior is being practiced.

[JC004]

CAPR 52-10 2-7. c. (2)

Prior Relationships. Non-romantic relationships between adult leaders and cadets that exist-ed prior to one of the individuals joining CAP (e.g. family, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) are not improper and may continue, including substantial contact outside of CAP activities. However, all CPP standards of practice will continue to apply during CAP activities except the "transportation rule of three" (2-3g) is not applicable. Adult leaders with prior relationships with cadets may transport those cadets to and from CAP activities under one-deep leadership with the parent's permission.

[Ned]

If a senior member has no prior non-romantic relationship with a cadet, can the senior member take a cadet to a restaurant to eat? Or would that be a boundary concern? Is reporting such behavior as a boundary concern a good practice?

Thank you for such a good question.  It shows me that you have taken the required CPPT and have at least looked through CAPR 52-10.

I think we start the analysis by looking at paragraph 2-7, which talks about "Interactions Outside CAP Activities."  There in subparagraph (c), it says:

Normally, cadets and adult leaders are not permitted to have significant contact outside of official CAP activities. [ Subject to exceptions for chance encounters, prior relationships, etc., none of which appear to apply on these facts.]

Since "no significant contact" outside of CAP activities is a defined Best Practice, and the regulation defines a violation of Best Practice as a boundary concern, then we have probably arrived at our answer on these limited facts.

Do you agree?

Also is posting personal things via social media that are noncap related that may be more of an adult nature a boundary concern?

As others have said, I'm not really sure what you are saying here.  The great majority of my postings on social media are noncap related.  (Actually I'm kinda proud of that.  We all need a broad variety of interests and activities in our lives.)

I live in Northern California.  Sometimes I go wine tasting, certainly an adult-themed activity.  I don't think an occasional photo of me with a glass of Merlot in my hand would be a problem.  On the other hand, I don't friend cadets and have my profile pretty well locked down because of what I do for a living.

But I can imagine that deliberately posting risqué or drug-themed materials where cadets would be expected to see it could amount to boundary concern.

So we would need to know more facts before we can do reach any sort of conclusion on this part of your question.

Finally, it is worth remembering that the normal response to a boundary concern is reminders and education of the member to avoid future issues.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[Майор Хаткевич]

My wife and I have a joint social media account. One day she had some very choice words for a driver that almost hit her.

My direct CAP boss got a call/text from another concerned unit commander, due to word choice and what if cadets see it. My profile is locked down, and I only had 18+ and college cadets from my time as a cadet myself. Once the new program was in the wind, I removed all cadets, so the answer was no.

But lesson learned. I now have zero CAP members as friends on social media. Not worth the hassle. 

[SarDragon]

OTOH, I have a lot of CAP friends on FB. That's my only "public" online playground. Don't think there are any cadets, though, since I've not been active in CP for so long. So far, I haven't gotten any flack for some of my tackier posts.

[TheSkyHornet]

OTOH, I have a lot of CAP friends on FB. That's my only "public" online playground. Don't think there are any cadets, though, since I've not been active in CP for so long. So far, I haven't gotten any flack for some of my tackier posts.

I don't have anyone on FB under 18 years of age except for my cousins. I have two cadets from our squadron added as my FB friends, both of whom are older than 18, one who is currently in Air Force boot, and the other just starting college. I don't engage with cadets under 18 outside of CAP, and my interactions with cadets who are 18 is limited to social media and nothing risque or interpersonal.

Even if it's legal, the question at hand is "is this appropriate behavior between a person of a higher level of responsibility and a subordinate/lesser-ranking individual? Could it be considered fraternization? CAP is less stringent on this than DoD, but really common sense needs to be factored in and should really reflect on the DoD's tolerances.

I've bought my cadets beverages when we've been working at events, but it's not an act of favoritism or being romantic/wooing. I've had it where a cadet forgot or lost his money and didn't have any to buy lunch. I've stood outside during parking duty with my cadets in rainstorms and offered to buy hot chocolate/coffee for the group. But I would not cross that line and say "Hey, you did good work today; wanna join me for dinner?" I wouldn't do that with a subordinate even of legal age. I'm certainly not going to do it with someone under 18-years-old. Even if I know nothing is going to happen, you have to be careful for people who might think otherwise, including that cadet.

[SarDragon]

OTOH, I have a lot of CAP friends on FB. That's my only "public" online playground. Don't think there are any cadets, though, since I've not been active in CP for so long. So far, I haven't gotten any flack for some of my tackier posts.

I don't have anyone on FB under 18 years of age except for my cousins. I have two cadets from our squadron added as my FB friends, both of whom are older than 18, one who is currently in Air Force boot, and the other just starting college. I don't engage with cadets under 18 outside of CAP, and my interactions with cadets who are 18 is limited to social media and nothing risque or interpersonal.

Even if it's legal, the question at hand is "is this appropriate behavior between a person of a higher level of responsibility and a subordinate/lesser-ranking individual? Could it be considered fraternization? CAP is less stringent on this than DoD, but really common sense needs to be factored in and should really reflect on the DoD's tolerances.

I've bought my cadets beverages when we've been working at events, but it's not an act of favoritism or being romantic/wooing. I've had it where a cadet forgot or lost his money and didn't have any to buy lunch. I've stood outside during parking duty with my cadets in rainstorms and offered to buy hot chocolate/coffee for the group. But I would not cross that line and say "Hey, you did good work today; wanna join me for dinner?" I wouldn't do that with a subordinate even of legal age. I'm certainly not going to do it with someone under 18-years-old. Even if I know nothing is going to happen, you have to be careful for people who might think otherwise, including that cadet.

In days long past, I regularly socialized with my squadron commander and his family, and another of the SMs and is wife. I had a drivers license at 17, had a lot of freedom in my activities. Much of that was directed toward CAP official and unofficial activities.

Times are very different today.

[TheSkyHornet]

OTOH, I have a lot of CAP friends on FB. That's my only "public" online playground. Don't think there are any cadets, though, since I've not been active in CP for so long. So far, I haven't gotten any flack for some of my tackier posts.

I don't have anyone on FB under 18 years of age except for my cousins. I have two cadets from our squadron added as my FB friends, both of whom are older than 18, one who is currently in Air Force boot, and the other just starting college. I don't engage with cadets under 18 outside of CAP, and my interactions with cadets who are 18 is limited to social media and nothing risque or interpersonal.

Even if it's legal, the question at hand is "is this appropriate behavior between a person of a higher level of responsibility and a subordinate/lesser-ranking individual? Could it be considered fraternization? CAP is less stringent on this than DoD, but really common sense needs to be factored in and should really reflect on the DoD's tolerances.

I've bought my cadets beverages when we've been working at events, but it's not an act of favoritism or being romantic/wooing. I've had it where a cadet forgot or lost his money and didn't have any to buy lunch. I've stood outside during parking duty with my cadets in rainstorms and offered to buy hot chocolate/coffee for the group. But I would not cross that line and say "Hey, you did good work today; wanna join me for dinner?" I wouldn't do that with a subordinate even of legal age. I'm certainly not going to do it with someone under 18-years-old. Even if I know nothing is going to happen, you have to be careful for people who might think otherwise, including that cadet.

In days long past, I regularly socialized with my squadron commander and his family, and another of the SMs and is wife. I had a drivers license at 17, had a lot of freedom in my activities. Much of that was directed toward CAP official and unofficial activities.

Times are very different today.

I had this discussion with another senior member last night. He's 18, a TFO, and the former C/CC of a local squadron. He said it is difficult sometimes to look back and realize you were friends with a lot of the guys in the group when you were 16 and they were 14, but a couple of years later, and switching sides in the program, you take on new responsibilities that may not always seem fair but you just have to go with doing what's appropriate and professional. You can still be friends outside of CAP, but you need to know where it can be taken the wrong way by observers.

As for me, there are CAP members I'm friends with outside of CAP. I don't consider myself "friends" with kids, even if we're friendly and cans it down and talk outside of CAP. We've been at the same camp outs and graduation parties together, but I'm still the adult and it's my responsibility to not take it any further than casual conversation. If someone wants to talk about something on a personal level, I'm totally open to that, but as adults, not just senior members, it's our responsibility to know when there's a point we pull the plug and no the conversation/interaction can't go any further.

[Storm Chaser]

Ideally, you should have a separate FB account for CAP. If you don't and you use your personal FB account for CAP, then you should not be "friends" with cadets. Even if you don't post anything improper, you have little control over what others are posting. It's better to keep your personal and CAP lives separate.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Ideally, you should have a separate FB account for CAP. If you don't and you use your personal FB account for CAP, then you should not be "friends" with cadets. Even if you don't post anything improper, you have little control over what others are posting. It's better to keep your personal and CAP lives separate.

Indeed, did that a long time ago.  It does take some managing, I have to say, but I also locked down my own FB account as there are people who connect to me there that are also connected to the cadets, and my "friends" FB accounts aren't as tightly locked as they think.  That, and some of them use FB to 'unload"....

To the OP's point, however: did you get enough help to answer your question and address your concerns?

[Eaker Guy]

My wife and I have a joint social media account. One day she had some very choice words for a driver that almost hit her.

My direct CAP boss got a call/text from another concerned unit commander, due to word choice and what if cadets see it. My profile is locked down, and I only had 18+ and college cadets from my time as a cadet myself. Once the new program was in the wind, I removed all cadets, so the answer was no.

But lesson learned. I now have zero CAP members as friends on social media. Not worth the hassle.

I solve the dilemma a different way. No social media for me, period. 

[PHall]

My wife and I have a joint social media account. One day she had some very choice words for a driver that almost hit her.

My direct CAP boss got a call/text from another concerned unit commander, due to word choice and what if cadets see it. My profile is locked down, and I only had 18+ and college cadets from my time as a cadet myself. Once the new program was in the wind, I removed all cadets, so the answer was no.

But lesson learned. I now have zero CAP members as friends on social media. Not worth the hassle.

I solve the dilemma a different way. No social media for me, period. 

This is considered "social media".....

[Eaker Guy]

My wife and I have a joint social media account. One day she had some very choice words for a driver that almost hit her.

My direct CAP boss got a call/text from another concerned unit commander, due to word choice and what if cadets see it. My profile is locked down, and I only had 18+ and college cadets from my time as a cadet myself. Once the new program was in the wind, I removed all cadets, so the answer was no.

But lesson learned. I now have zero CAP members as friends on social media. Not worth the hassle.

I solve the dilemma a different way. No social media for me, period. 

This is considered "social media".....

I meant facebook, twitter, etc....

[Spam]

John Bender: Hey, Cherry. Do you belong to the physics club?
Claire Standish: That's an academic club.
John Bender: So?
Claire Standish: So academic clubs aren't the same as other kinds of clubs.
John Bender: Ah... but to dorks like him, they are. What do you guys do in your club?
Brian Johnson: Well, in physics we... we talk about physics, properties of physics.
John Bender: So it's sorta social, demented and sad, but social. Right?


Yep, this is social media, sad though it might seem.

V/R
Spam

[SarDragon]

 :clap:

[Eaker Guy]

John Bender: Hey, Cherry. Do you belong to the physics club?
Claire Standish: That's an academic club.
John Bender: So?
Claire Standish: So academic clubs aren't the same as other kinds of clubs.
John Bender: Ah... but to dorks like him, they are. What do you guys do in your club?
Brian Johnson: Well, in physics we... we talk about physics, properties of physics.
John Bender: So it's sorta social, demented and sad, but social. Right?


Yep, this is social media, sad though it might seem.

V/R
Spam

My solemn vow is broken! What am I going to do???  Oh well. I suppose I can live with myself.