CAPR 110-3 Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Program

Started by kcebnaes, January 27, 2021, 09:40:42 PM

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kcebnaes

Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

Spam

"6.5. Previously approved emblems and mottoes that do not meet the requirements of this regulation do not need to be revised immediately. Modifications to existing emblems and mottoes must be updated prior to the next production of the item".

This appears to be the section that will generate the heartburn. I'm not looking forward to the discussions here.

Thanks for bringing this to our notice.
Spam

Eclipse

"But I just ordered 200 patches".

"After the Wing CC directed no one order any insignia until after updates?"

"Um..."

I have had that literal discussion.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spam

Out of the five units I currently command (I downsized - grin) one has an "eagle in attack mode", one has a "fighter aircraft" (the ancient museum F-84 which has been parked outside their trailers for years), and one has Snoopy on a doghouse with WW1 pilot cap/goggles (custom drawn unit patch in the mid 60s by Charles Schultz).  Since all three appear to violate this new Regulation, I am not happy that we need to go arbitrate patch history when we are trying to conduct business. Its going to be a massive, profitless, divisive time suck.

But yessir yessir three bags full...

V/r
Spam

PS NHQ - please - the OCP sunset date for USAF unit patches was six months ago. hint hint.

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on January 27, 2021, 11:01:54 PMI am not happy that we need to go arbitrate patch history when we are trying to conduct business. Its going to be a massive, profitless, divisive time suck.

This would have been another of those things perfect for "a year ago", though it's not like anything
is much happening yet.  No time like the present.

First order of business with this should have been accompanying language, with a requirement date and
an addition to the Commander SUI questionnaire.

"Review all insignia for standards compliance and identify those who must freeze procurement."

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

Uniforms ... always the greatest bane of CAP, over any other issue.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 28, 2021, 01:17:18 AMUniforms ... always the greatest bane of CAP, over any other issue.
Because everybody in CAP wears some sort of uniform.

Not everybody is a pilot, or a CP-type, or a comms person, or an AE maven, or a ground team god.  But the one thing they all have in common (beside a membership card) is a uniform.

So let's retire this trope, shall we?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

baronet68

Is there a conflict between the text at 7.5.5 and the example shown in Figure 2?

Quote from: CAPR 110-37.5.5 ...Squadron scrolls may be any color, as long as the overall design has six or fewer colors, border of disc and scroll is not white, the border of the disc and scroll are the same color as the lettering, and chosen color scheme provides contrast (one light color, one dark color) for easy readability of scroll text.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this because the second example in Figure 2 has white borders for both the disk and scroll.

 :-\
Michael Moore, Lt Col, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: baronet68 on January 28, 2021, 06:03:13 AMIs there a conflict between the text at 7.5.5 and the example shown in Figure 2?

Quote from: CAPR 110-37.5.5 ...Squadron scrolls may be any color, as long as the overall design has six or fewer colors, border of disc and scroll is not white, the border of the disc and scroll are the same color as the lettering, and chosen color scheme provides contrast (one light color, one dark color) for easy readability of scroll text.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this because the second example in Figure 2 has white borders for both the disk and scroll.

 :-\

Looks like they have a red border stroke around a white inner stroke, which makes the border not the same color as the text.


I'm not really grasping why CAP units have military aircraft or weapons in their patch designs. CAP is a non-combatant force. Cute? Sure. But not really commensurate with the modern missions. A quick Google search shows aerial bombs, bombers, fighters, and attack aircraft.


The next step will be to see how many units actually update their emblem and comply.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 28, 2021, 08:51:03 PM
Quote from: baronet68 on January 28, 2021, 06:03:13 AMIs there a conflict between the text at 7.5.5 and the example shown in Figure 2?

Quote from: CAPR 110-37.5.5 ...Squadron scrolls may be any color, as long as the overall design has six or fewer colors, border of disc and scroll is not white, the border of the disc and scroll are the same color as the lettering, and chosen color scheme provides contrast (one light color, one dark color) for easy readability of scroll text.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this because the second example in Figure 2 has white borders for both the disk and scroll.

 :-\

Looks like they have a red border stroke around a white inner stroke, which makes the border not the same color as the text.


I'm not really grasping why CAP units have military aircraft or weapons in their patch designs. CAP is a non-combatant force. Cute? Sure. But not really commensurate with the modern missions. A quick Google search shows aerial bombs, bombers, fighters, and attack aircraft.


The next step will be to see how many units actually update their emblem and comply.


Many units have military aircraft and/or weapons on their unit patch because they have a connection of some sort with a military unit.
A lot of times it's an Air Guard unit and the unit meets at their location and in some cases may even be "sponsored" by the unit.

And compliance is one of the easier things to do. Just make it part of the CI/SUI checklist. Unit patch is not IAW the reg, that's a finding. After a few "failed" inspections things will start to change, maybe...

Fubar

Quote from: PHall on January 28, 2021, 10:03:20 PMAnd compliance is one of the easier things to do. Just make it part of the CI/SUI checklist. Unit patch is not IAW the reg, that's a finding. After a few "failed" inspections things will start to change, maybe...

Not how inspections work. Except for money and equipment, as long as you submit a "plan of action" to correct the discrepancy you're good to go (they are a bit more picky about missing cash or stuff for obvious reasons). You can get the same discrepancy again in the following inspection, change the date on the POA and submit it again to close it out. Sure, it might downgrade your effectiveness score for having a "repeat discrepancy" for whatever tab they decide to throw the patch inspection on (put it right next to the email signature inspection*), but unless your squadron/wing is already failing it won't impact the overall score. Rinse and repeat.

Oh and I'm not forced to do anything until I need to do a new production run? Well it's still listed on Vanguard and Jim has about 2,000 of them in the storage shed from that time a member hooked us up on a discount, so I guess we're not there yet. Just like everything else, this will remain really important to the guy who wrote the reg and when he moves on to some other area to pee in their cereal, that will become the new important thing.

How on earth do you put really horrible looking "examples" of patch designs next to some really well designed and nice looking patches at the end of that regulation? Boggles the mind.

* Yes, I know the OPR was forced to remove the email signature inspection from SUIs after the outrage reached a crashing crescendo. One does wonder if history will repeat itself.

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on January 29, 2021, 04:27:41 AMNot how inspections work. Except for money and equipment, as long as you submit a "plan of action" to correct the discrepancy you're good to go (they are a bit more picky about missing cash or stuff for obvious reasons). You can get the same discrepancy again in the following inspection, change the date on the POA and submit it again to close it out. Sure, it might downgrade your effectiveness score for having a "repeat discrepancy" for whatever tab they decide to throw the patch inspection on (put it right next to the email signature inspection*), but unless your squadron/wing is already failing it won't impact the overall score. Rinse and repeat.

The same can be said for basically anything on the inspection sheets - the "scores" are literally meaningless.

At least if it's pointed out, it can't be said "we didn't know". Otherwise I basically agree.

If nothing else, it certainly says something about the organizaiton that it's taken 21+ years to
get a published standard on something so basic.  When I joined and was asked to design my first insignia,
the first thing I did was ask "Where's the standard?", to a resounding response of crickets.

Enforcement aside, it's a start, and no one can ever say, "there's no standard..."

I suppose I should be happy enough that one of my designs is in the reg, even if no one asked me about
what I thought of some of the standards.

"That Others May Zoom"

GroundHawg

I suspect many units will do what I would do and just retire their unit patches altogether. It's much easier to just not wear one than go through all the red tape and BS that is now required.



Eclipse

Honestly, this might have been / should be the best course, and this is coming from
someone who has invested a lot of time with insignia design and cleanup.

It's supposed to be "One CAP" right?  So move to just using charter numbers as
as administrative identifiers and drop all the regional, hardkewl local identity stuff.

I would say the same for the Wing and Region patches.

It ends the conversation, saves members moneys, and allows for no significant effort
as an excuse to delay Day-1 implementation.

Done.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2021, 02:46:50 PMSo move to just using charter numbers as
as administrative identifiers and drop all the regional, hardkewl local identity stuff.

How about not?

Actual conversation with a former CA Wing guy I met out here:

Me: "Oh, you were in CAP in California? I have a bunch of buddies out there. What squadron?"
Him: "257" (Not the actual number)
Me: "Oh, uhhh, where's that?"
Him: "It was in Group 23" (also not the actual number)
Me: "Yeah, no I mean the squadron..where was it?"
Him: "Oh, it was the Lt Jimmy Smith Cadet Squadron"
Me: "WHERE IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WAS YOUR SQUADRON LOCATED?"
Him: "Oh, uh, Orange County."
Me: "*sigh* Pretend I don't know anything geographically about California except that its in the Western US. Is that near a city?"

I can't count the number of times I've asked someone what unit they're from and they say something like "IN-927" or "056". Can you please be a bit more descriptive for the circumstances? I'm not looking your charter number up in eServices on my phone.

Its like that old joke about the balloonist who floats up alongside a building in the fog, and shouts out to a guy on the building "Hey, I'm lost! Where am I?"
The guy shouts back "You're in a balloon!"
"Oh, this must be the Microsoft campus."
"Yes! How did you know that?"
"Beceause you gave me an answer that's technically correct but completely useless for my circumstances."







Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Your example is only useful if you know where a given airport or city is, not
everyone knows, or for that matter cares, but like all things in CAP, those
who need to know, do.

Someone from out of state, Region, or 1/2 way across the country, doesn't
need to know, and when and if they do, it works it self out quickly.

Further, due to the realities of the way units move around, and that people
don't like change, often a unit retains an historical name, even though it
isn't any where near where it was when originally chartered.

The average member, from the average unit, rarely leaves his unit,
more rarely leaves his Group for anything, and the number of members
who ever go out of Wing is statistically insignificant, especially for
this conversation, and there is literally no mission-focused reason
for knowing someone is from out of wing, or even what unit they are
with, at least in regards to "low-light-identification".

Hey, I'm the patch and coin guy, I love this stuff, but like everything
else in CAP, due to lack of fortitude in enforcement, published standards,
and then the "gotcha" culture, the organization takes something that should
be a fun sidenote and turns it into one more thing to argue about and get
uninformed non-stakeholder grief about.

"What is the significance of the black in the tires on the airplane?"

"Cessna tires are black."

"Yes, but black can have a negative connotation on a herald."

"It can also have a positive one, and Cessna tires are black..."

"I'll need to discuss this with the Wing CC.
"

An actual conversation I had.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

I'm absolutely lost when people tell me what unit they're in and start citing numbers or names in memoriam. I'm confused enough when I hear of a city or county that I don't even know exists.

"Where are you from?"
"155"
"Where?"
"Tangela"
"Where's that?"
"Down south"
"Oh, gotcha" (don't gotcha, but okay)

"Where are you from?"
"Wiley E. Coyote Composite Squadron"
"Where?"
"155"
(repeat steps above)

It's gibberish.

That said, we don't really need to know that stuff. We're technically charted as a location-based squadron name, but we traditionally refer to ourselves by our charter number. We've had numerous conversations about officially changing to use that indefinitely in the event that we move to a new location and to avoid any city-based distinction. We actually use our county name, but we get inquiries from people who assume we don't take members from outside of the county ("Is it okay to join even though we don't live there?"). God help those outside of CAP who try to figure out what the heck a Senior or Composite Squadron are, let alone those who don't even know that CAP is more than just a youth cadet organization.

I'm actually kind of stoked to redo our patch; we've talked about redesigning it since I joined. In fact, I think we actually have been using an unofficial design for years on our pamphlets and materials, not even using the actual patch (that nobody has seen in a while; nobody in the current unit even knows it exists, I bet). We haven't worn unit patches for a few years and started phasing out the practice just before ABUs were approved for transition. I'm looking forward to continuing to not add another sew-on item just because we revised our patch design. If anything, it's nice to have on letterhead.


Eclipse

I've been in favor of removing the charter type from names and insignis for years.

It's meaningless to the general public, for the most part functionally meaningless,
and those who need to know need to know.

Nice to see that's been indicated as a "don't" now.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2021, 07:02:17 PMIt's meaningless to the general public, for the most part functionally meaningless,
and those who need to know need to know.

I actually had this conversation a couple days ago with my staff team. I asked someone, "Are you guys a composite squadron or a cadet squadron, or are you a composite squadron that acts like a cadet squadron?"


Crashaxe

Thank the heavens that this existential crisis, rising so greatly above the strictly petty issues facing CAP today, has been addressed!!!

I will sleep so much better tonight knowing that the mortal threat of wayward heraldry has been crushed.