Wing patches

[SAREXinNY]

I had a cadet tell me that a new update to 39-1 made Wing shoulder patches mandatory. Having been around for more than 2 months I knew to check for myself. They appear to still be optional, unless the Wing CC requires them. Does anyone know where that may be a list of which Wings require them, by chance? It's more curiosity than anything...

[arajca]

I haven't seen such a list, but you can check the Approved Supplements and OIs for more information.

[PHall]

And then you get cases like California Wing that when the ABU's came out the Wing Commander at the time said that wear of the wing patch was optional and that he preferred that it not be worn on the BDU, i.e. following how the Air Force wore the ABU. This was in a letter that went out to the wing when the ABU was authorized.
It's not in the Wing Supplement to CAPR 39-1 because California Wing does not have a Wing Supplement to CAPR 39-1 and hasn't had one for a few years now.

[Shuman 14]

I suspect, once the OCP Uniform is authorized for CAP wear, a Higher Command Patch will be required on the Left Sleeve Pocket. For most of the CAP membership, that Higher Command Patch will be the Wing patch.

This will mirror USAF/USSF policy/practice of Higher Command Patch on the Left Sleeve Pocket and Unit Patch under the reversed US Flag on the Right Sleeve Pocket.

Too be expected our patches will be full color to provide easy identification of CAP member vs USAF/USSF member.

Thank goodness Vanguard already carries all of our Wing Patches with Velcro attached.   

[Stonewall]

OHWG has a "wing patch optional" policy.

[PHall]

I suspect, once the OCP Uniform is authorized for CAP wear, a Higher Command Patch will be required on the Left Sleeve Pocket. For most of the CAP membership, that Higher Command Patch will be the Wing patch.

This will mirror USAF/USSF policy/practice of Higher Command Patch on the Left Sleeve Pocket and Unit Patch under the reversed US Flag on the Right Sleeve Pocket.

Too be expected our patches will be full color to provide easy identification of CAP member vs USAF/USSF member.

Thank goodness Vanguard already carries all of our Wing Patches with Velcro attached.   

No, if CAP is to mirror USAF practice then the patch on the left sleeve will be the CAP "MAJCOM" patch as is worn on the right side of the flight suit. The "Higher Command" patch worn by the USAF on the OCP is the patch of the MAJCOM their unit is assigned to. In the Air Force the only personnel who wear a wing patch are the personnel who are actually assigned to the Wing Headquarters itself and that is on the right side. They still wear their MAJCOM patch on the left side.

[Shuman 14]

No, if CAP is to mirror USAF practice then the patch on the left sleeve will be the CAP "MAJCOM" patch as is worn on the right side of the flight suit. The "Higher Command" patch worn by the USAF on the OCP is the patch of the MAJCOM their unit is assigned to. In the Air Force the only personnel who wear a wing patch are the personnel who are actually assigned to the Wing Headquarters itself and that is on the right side. They still wear their MAJCOM patch on the left side.

Okay, you're likely correct, I'm not sure, so I'll go with your institutional knowledge. So, would we all (or almost all of us) wear the CAP Command Patch on the Left Sleeve Pocket? 

I assume, based on what you said, all of us would have the CAP Command patch on the left sleeve and a Region, Wing, Group or Squadron patch (based on assignment) on the right sleeve.

So, when I said "almost all of us", would the personnel assigned to CAP National Headquarters wear the CAP Command Patch (as both MAJCOM and Unit patch) on both Sleeve Pockets or would they be the select few to wear the Air Combat Command patch as their MAJCOM patch and the CAP Command as their Unit Patch?

[PHall]

No, if CAP is to mirror USAF practice then the patch on the left sleeve will be the CAP "MAJCOM" patch as is worn on the right side of the flight suit. The "Higher Command" patch worn by the USAF on the OCP is the patch of the MAJCOM their unit is assigned to. In the Air Force the only personnel who wear a wing patch are the personnel who are actually assigned to the Wing Headquarters itself and that is on the right side. They still wear their MAJCOM patch on the left side.

Okay, you're likely correct, I'm not sure, so I'll go with your institutional knowledge. So, would we all (or almost all of us) wear the CAP Command Patch on the Left Sleeve Pocket?

I assume, based on what you said, all of us would have the CAP Command patch on the left sleeve and a Region, Wing, Group or Squadron patch (based on assignment) on the right sleeve.

So, when I said "almost all of us", would the personnel assigned to CAP National Headquarters wear the CAP Command Patch (as both MAJCOM and Unit patch) on both Sleeve Pockets or would they be the select few to wear the Air Combat Command patch as their MAJCOM patch and the CAP Command as their Unit Patch?

The only ones to wear the ACC patch would be Air Force personnel assigned to CAP-USAF and the Reserve Assistance Program folks.

[TheSkyHornet]

Will this really matter...? When CAP launches a regulation authorizing OCPs, I'm sure they'll be quite clear as to which sides the respective patches (as applicable) will go on.

This under the assumption that members will even wear more than one patch.

The Air Force never wore patches on their BDU shoulders. Still, CAP elected to place the Wing Patch there for whatever reason (maybe because Snoopy and his training patches were reserved for the chest/breast areas).

We basically retained this when we incorporated ABUs, and it was a chance for a lot of people to say "Finally, we can get rid of all of these patches."

Personally, I'm a little more fearful of wearing some bright, gaudy patch on OCPs than a subdued patch. But this does go to asking: "Why are we still in camouflage?"

[PHall]

Personally, I'm a little more fearful of wearing some bright, gaudy patch on OCPs than a subdued patch. But this does go to asking: "Why are we still in camouflage?"

It's like asking why is the Navy wearing camouflage while on a ship?

[Shuman 14]

Personally, I'm a little more fearful of wearing some bright, gaudy patch on OCPs than a subdued patch. But this does go to asking: "Why are we still in camouflage?"

Because OCPs are the USAF/USSF Field/Working Uniform, and they will eventually want us in it, for uniformity purposes, if nothing else.

Eventually someone at Ma Blue, high up in the pecking order, will see CAP at some function in which we were invited, and complain that we are still in the obsolete ABUs making the Air Force look bad by wearing it and then we will have OCPs.

...BUT...

Seeing as the supply chains are having issues getting enough USAF/USSF Service Uniforms for those graduating Basic and the Army, USAF and USSF are all priority for OCPs, that might be awhile.

[SierraOneThree]

Seeing as the supply chains are having issues getting enough USAF/USSF Service Uniforms for those graduating Basic and the Army, USAF and USSF are all priority for OCPs, that might be awhile.

I'm almost 95% sure they aren't having issues with availability, especially considering the recruiting crisis they're having. OCPs were authorized years ago now, the production has caught up and I haven't seen any problems in the MCSS for a long time.

[PHall]

Seeing as the supply chains are having issues getting enough USAF/USSF Service Uniforms for those graduating Basic and the Army, USAF and USSF are all priority for OCPs, that might be awhile.

Haven't been in a MCSS for awhile, have you? The Service Dress uniform shortages are pretty much over. Haven't seen any empty shelves in awhile. And the OCP "shortage" was over a couple of years ago...

[Fubar]

Because OCPs are the USAF/USSF Field/Working Uniform, and they will eventually want us in it, for uniformity purposes, if nothing else.

I dunno who they are, but if you mean somebody in the Air Force, well I hate to burst your bubble but they don't give two poops about what people in CAP are wearing, as long as it's not flight suits with brown leather jackets. Then the zipper-suited sun gods get a bit uppity. In fact "they" at the Air Force only get upset when they think CAP looks too much like them (e.g. barry boards and the CSU). Nobody in Big Blue is worried about uniformity with the one auxiliary that likes cosplay (the other auxiliary the Air Force has doesn't bother with such things).

If CAP was part of the Air Force and the Air Force cared about CAP's uniforms, CAP would receive direction to change uniforms when the Air Force does. Instead, CAP has to write a memo begging to change uniforms that has to go through several layers of bureaucracy before finally landing on the desk of CSAF who tends to prioritize a number of other issues over CAP uniforms.

So it's very doubtful any changes to our uniforms will come at the direction of the Air Force.

[Shuman 14]

Haven't been in a MCSS for awhile, have you? The Service Dress uniform shortages are pretty much over. Haven't seen any empty shelves in awhile. And the OCP "shortage" was over a couple of years ago...

Last time I was in an Air Force AAFES was last summer and there was still a shortage of Service Uniforms when I was there. This was the only shortage I was referring to, sorry if that wasn't clear.

The only shortages in OCPs I've seen in OCPs has been in very small sizes (many of our Cadets would fit this category) and in really big sizes.

[Stonewall]

For an assessment from the field, I am unaware of any OCP shortage. Personally, I have about 12 pair of OCPs. When I went to buy a pair of the summer weights last year at an Army post in Virginia, the shelves were fully stocked. And every time I go to WPAFB, their shelves are fully stocked.

In fact, when I take donations a of ABUs at my base, we began getting OCP uniforms and other items (boots, fleece, etc.) I actually got 3 brand new sets with tags in small/short. So if/when we go to OCPs, there are three cadets who will get brand new sets.

[Jester]

I was told by the CAP/CCC that CAP had just given Vanguard the go-ahead to print more ABU fabric.  To me this is the indication that ABU supply is pretty much a drip at this point and it's time to move on. 

We should take this as a lesson learned.  We waited too long for stupid reasons to transfer to ABU and now we need to shift to OCP. 

[heliodoc]

Lessons learned?

Maybe a 39-1 AAR?

New 70-3 replacing 60-3

Bullet trains and diesel burnin city busses have left the station

[wacapgh]

I was told by the CAP/CCC that CAP had just given Vanguard the go-ahead to print more ABU fabric.

I would interpret that statement as that CAP will need to have the ABU in production for the foreseeable future. If a change to OCP was soon, we would not authorize paying for a whole run of fabric.

[NIN]

I was told by the CAP/CCC that CAP had just given Vanguard the go-ahead to print more ABU fabric.

I would interpret that statement as that CAP will need to have the ABU in production for the foreseeable future. If a change to OCP was soon, we would not authorize paying for a whole run of fabric.

Even printing more fabric, the phase in period for OCP will be 5 years at a minimum.  That fabric will not go to waste.

There will be purists out there who will tell you that you can have their ABUs when you cut them from their cold, dead body.  Mind you, they've been in CAP 5 years and will tell you all about how it was "back in the day".

Same words were spoken in 1991, and in 2016.

As a guy I known said "Things change. Deal."

[PHall]

Just who is the CAP/CCC? Have never seen this office symbol before.

[Paul Creed III]

Just who is the CAP/CCC? Have never seen this office symbol before.

Command Chief Master Sergeant, as per CAPP 1-2.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/about/governance/cap-commandteam/chief-master-sgt-todd-h-parsons

[PHall]

This brings question number two. Why is the Command Chief telling people that we had Vanguard order more material?
That would seem to be not in his lane.

BTW I just spent the weekend with the Chief at the CAWG Cadet Programs Conference. He was surprised to see another Senior NCO there, me.

[Shuman 14]

Don't have ABUs, will never have ABUs and have found that a blue polo, grey tac-pants and black combat boots work for almost any CAP field problem/exercise I've been on.

When OCPs become authorized, I have several sets that I kept all Velcro so I can transfer tapes and rank between USAR duty and CAP duty.

Sitting on this issue silly, somebody just make the call and even if they put a ten-year wear-out period on ABUs there will be people showing up in OCPs the first day it is authorized. Just saying.

[PHall]

Don't have ABUs, will never have ABUs and have found that a blue polo, grey tac-pants and black combat boots work for almost any CAP field problem/exercise I've been on.

When OCPs become authorized, I have several sets that I kept all Velcro so I can transfer tapes and rank between USAR duty and CAP duty.

Sitting on this issue silly, somebody just make the call and even if they put a ten-year wear-out period on ABUs there will be people showing up in OCPs the first day it is authorized. Just saying.

You do realize that it's not CAP's call, right? CAP can request that the Commander CAP-USAF put in the request for us and to run it up the chain.
In the end this could be a SecAF decision like going to ABU's was.

[Shuman 14]

You do realize that it's not CAP's call, right? CAP can request that the Commander CAP-USAF put in the request for us and to run it up the chain.
In the end this could be a SecAF decision like going to ABU's was.

So? I got it, it's a hard call to ask for something from higher, the call still needs to be made.

I got it when the USAF was still using ABUs and OCP supplies were limited, but that time is passed. Surplus ABUs have all but dried up. Continuing to have Vanguard produce the pattern will eventually become cost prohibitive, as they will be the sole monopoly on production and will be able to raise costs whenever they feel like it.

OCPs are now plentiful, being produced by many companies besides Vanguard, and provide a lower cost to obtain than ABUs.

It's silly to wait to ask, should have been asked a year ago.

My question to you is, why do you think the Air Force would say no? What over-arching reason could the Air Force to have to deny the request? The request is reasonable, do-able and there is a strong argument to say NECESSARY as well.





 

[PHall]

You do realize that it's not CAP's call, right? CAP can request that the Commander CAP-USAF put in the request for us and to run it up the chain.
In the end this could be a SecAF decision like going to ABU's was.

So? I got it, it's a hard call to ask for something from higher, the call still needs to be made.

I got it when the USAF was still using ABUs and OCP supplies were limited, but that time is passed. Surplus ABUs have all but dried up. Continuing to have Vanguard produce the pattern will eventually become cost prohibitive, as they will be the sole monopoly on production and will be able to raise costs whenever they feel like it.

OCPs are now plentiful, being produced by many companies besides Vanguard, and provide a lower cost to obtain than ABUs.

It's silly to wait to ask, should have been asked a year ago.

My question to you is, why do you think the Air Force would say no? What over-arching reason could the Air Force to have to deny the request? The request is reasonable, do-able and there is a strong argument to say NECESSARY as well.





 

Well if you listen to some folks we don't need ABU's or OCP's at all...

[Shuman 14]

Well if you listen to some folks we don't need ABU's or OCP's at all...

Then make that call.

I would submit to you, that nearly all CAP missions can be completed in a Polo shirt, tac-pants and hiking boots.

Suitable for an office.

Suitable for a CP/ICP/TOC.

You can fly in it.

You can do GT work in it. If you're worried about scratches on your arms, wear the long sleeve version.

But you might lose the draw of cadets that want that Air Force uniform (some seniors too).

You can't make everyone happy, so stop trying.

But if we are going to have an Air Force style uniform, let's not wear an obsolete one.

The simple solution is to add a clause chapter in 39-1 that reads something to the effect that when a USAF uniform article is abolished or replaced, CAP has a five year wear out date for the abolished or replaced item and then they must purchase the USAF approved replacement item and/or stop wearing the abolished item altogether. Unless otherwise directed by the USAF itself.

For example, the USAF replaced the ABU with the OCP. the last day that they could wear ABUs was 01APR2021. Which means CAP members, if this clause was in place, would have until 01APR2026 to wear ABUs and after that date they must wear OCPs.

That also means, effective 02APR2021, CAP members could wear OCPs if they chose to.

Now, we know at the start, OCPs had shortages, so the Air Force could have issued a directive, CAP will not begin their transition to OCPs until 01APR2022 in order to allow existing stocks of OCPs to make it to US Army, Air Force and Space Force personnel first.

Another example would be USAF Dress Whites, abolished on 01MAR1993. CAP personnel that had them could continue to wear them until 01MAR1998 but after that no more.

A simple clause chapter would save so much grief and then we wouldn't need to keep going back to the Air Force to ask for a change, the change would be already approved by them when the clause chapter was added to 39-1.

[SierraOneThree]

Not that we're on topic anymore, but I'm just excited for black boots with OCPs when it eventually does happen.

Because "cadets have to shine their shoes" and "it's cheap."

/s

[SarDragon]

Not that we're on topic anymore, but I'm just excited for black boots with OCPs when it eventually does happen.

Because "cadets have to shine their shoes" and "it's cheap."

/s

Shouldn't the seniors be shining their shoes, too? Setting an example and avoiding a double standard? I keep my black boots shined to the standard defined in the reg.

[heliodoc]

Correct

I still shine my last issue of 2 boots per year when I was a WG10 mechanic

I can safely say that the old saying boot shining builds discipline is outmoded

Todays cadets maybe lacking discipline in some areas...but they are our CyberPatriot gang and that could be their discipline

It might be time that CAP and the USAF come to an agreement that it takes more than black boots to delineate the organizations

Common sense isn't so common sense in AD2023..CAP truly needs to m=be modernizing in more ways than uniforms...like training replacement for Lpers Nationwide, updated taskbooks for the whole system...something more important than boots