Unit Patch vs Higher Command Patch in CAP

[Shuman 14]

So I'm slightly confused, and maybe it's my Army mind reading Air Force Terminology but what constitutes a Higher Command Patch in CAP?

So we were having a discussion of the placement of Patches on current uniforms and potential future uniforms (i.e. OCPs and a corporate Blue version of OCPs) and we were cross referencing the Air Force Instructions and the confusion centers on the CAP Command Patch being the Higher Headquarters or is it Group, Wing or Region.

Clearly, if you are assigned at Squadron, Group, Wing or Region, that Patch is your Unit Patch. So will it be like the Flight Suits, with the CAP Command Patch always being the Higher Command Patch...
 
- - or - -

Will Squadrons and Groups wear Wing Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Wings will wear Region Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Regions will wear the CAP Command Patch and those at National will wear only the CAP Command Patch?

Consensus during our discussion was, like the Flight Suits, the CAP Command Patch will always be the Higher Command Patch and any Subordinate Units (Squadron, Group, Wing or Region) will be the Unit Patch based on the CAP Members actual current assignment.

Any thoughts... constructive thoughts... are welcome.

[Toad1168]

I would think if its a member assigned to a squadron, they would wear the Wing patch and their squadron patch.  If group, wing and group.  If wing (full-time), wing and wing squadron patch.  If region, region and wing.  If national (full-time), command patch and home wing. 

Just my two cents. 

[Capt Thompson]

So I'm slightly confused, and maybe it's my Army mind reading Air Force Terminology but what constitutes a Higher Command Patch in CAP?

So we were having a discussion of the placement of Patches on current uniforms and potential future uniforms (i.e. OCPs and a corporate Blue version of OCPs) and we were cross referencing the Air Force Instructions and the confusion centers on the CAP Command Patch being the Higher Headquarters or is it Group, Wing or Region.

Clearly, if you are assigned at Squadron, Group, Wing or Region, that Patch is your Unit Patch. So will it be like the Flight Suits, with the CAP Command Patch always being the Higher Command Patch...
 
- - or - -

Will Squadrons and Groups wear Wing Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Wings will wear Region Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Regions will wear the CAP Command Patch and those at National will wear only the CAP Command Patch?

Consensus during our discussion was, like the Flight Suits, the CAP Command Patch will always be the Higher Command Patch and any Subordinate Units (Squadron, Group, Wing or Region) will be the Unit Patch based on the CAP Members actual current assignment.

Any thoughts... constructive thoughts... are welcome.

First, please show me what page in CAPR 39-1 the term "Higher Command Patch" may be found? If you do a search, it's not in the reg anywhere, so maybe that's part of the source of confusion? So what is in the reg? For the ABU, 39-1 states:

5.1.1.1.2.2. Left Sleeve. One full color, wing/region/national patch may be sewn to the coat on the left sleeve ½ inch below the shoulder seam reflecting the individual's current unit of assignment. Wing Commanders may make wear of the wing patch mandatory for members of their wings. 

5.1.1.1.2.3. Breast Pocket (optional). One full color patch authorized in Attachment 4, with the exception of the Emergency Services Patch and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the breast pocket(s) between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt, using the column currently authorized for the BDU. These patches are optional for wear.

Attachment 4 shows that an Organizational Patch (Squadron, Group), goes on the Right Pocket, therefore someone at Wing, Region or National would wear that patch on their left sleeve. Anyone below Wing would wear the Wing patch on their left sleeve, and an Organizational Patch on their Right Pocket. Note that below Wing level, the Wing and Organizational patches aren't mandatory unless the Wing Commander makes them so.

Are you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

[Shuman 14]

Are you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Referencing CAPR 39-1 and DAFI 36-2903 and other USAF Supplements
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/News/Display/Article/2315431/ocp-guidance-updating-sept-1/,

and recent articles that state the patches are now reversed https://www.facebook.com/944thFighterWing.LukeAFB/posts/triviatuesday-answerocp-wear-update-effective-immediatelywe-will-now-place-the-s/10157009527914333/,

we were discussing placement of CAP Patches on a possible (likely) CAP OCP uniform.

Using the USAF Terminology "Higher Headquarters Patch" and/or "Higher Command Patch", which seems to be the same thing, what does that translate into using CAP Terminology?

Seeing that the sole required patch on the right breast of CAP Flight Suits is the CAP Command Patch, can we extrapolate that on any future CAP OCP uniform this will be the sole authorized Higher Headquarters/Command Patch authorized?

No patches are authorized on the front pockets of USAF OCPs (the improved hot weather versions don't have any front pockets at all), so we are discussing left/right sleeve pockets only.


So do you see the confusion now?


Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)         
Unit Patch                            CAP Command Patch

--- or ---

Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)
Squadron                            Group and/or Wing
Group                                 Wing
Wing                                   Region
Region                                CAP Command Patch
CAP Command Patch         CAP Command Patch (or First Air Force)
or Blank (HQ Staff)             CAP Command Patch

Common sense says the current blue/white Nametape, CAP Tape, Badges and Rank Insignia will continue to be used on any future OCP Blue-OCP uniform.

T-shirt and boot color "may" change (coyote) or could possible (likely) stay the same (black).

But patch placement is uncertain.

[Capt Thompson]

Are you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Referencing CAPR 39-1 and DAFI 36-2903 and other USAF Supplements
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/News/Display/Article/2315431/ocp-guidance-updating-sept-1/,

and recent articles that state the patches are now reversed https://www.facebook.com/944thFighterWing.LukeAFB/posts/triviatuesday-answerocp-wear-update-effective-immediatelywe-will-now-place-the-s/10157009527914333/,

we were discussing placement of CAP Patches on a possible (likely) CAP OCP uniform.

Using the USAF Terminology "Higher Headquarters Patch" and/or "Higher Command Patch", which seems to be the same thing, what does that translate into using CAP Terminology?

Seeing that the sole required patch on the right breast of CAP Flight Suits is the CAP Command Patch, can we extrapolate that on any future CAP OCP uniform this will be the sole authorized Higher Headquarters/Command Patch authorized?

No patches are authorized on the front pockets of USAF OCPs (the improved hot weather versions don't have any front pockets at all), so we are discussing left/right sleeve pockets only.


So do you see the confusion now?


Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)         
Unit Patch                            CAP Command Patch

--- or ---

Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)
Squadron                            Group and/or Wing
Group                                 Wing
Wing                                   Region
Region                                CAP Command Patch
CAP Command Patch         CAP Command Patch (or First Air Force)
or Blank (HQ Staff)             CAP Command Patch

Common sense says the current blue/white Nametape, CAP Tape, Badges and Rank Insignia will continue to be used on any future OCP Blue-OCP uniform.

T-shirt and boot color "may" change (coyote) or could possible (likely) stay the same (black).

But patch placement is uncertain.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

The command patch has only ever been worn on the flight suit, there's no precedent for it to be worn on a working uniform, so I can't see it moving over to OCP. OCP would likely have you either wearing a Wing or Organizational patch on the velcro on your shoulder, unless you worked for a higher echelon. Tapes and occupational (IC, GTM etc.) or aviation badges would stay in their current location, rank would move to the center tab, and everything else would go away. If there was a blue corporate OCP, you would probably still see the ES patch, maybe Rocketry and NCSA's.

Boots will stay black because that's just how we are, tshirts would go to the current OCP brown shirts.

That would be my guess, but none of us really knows until NHQ wills it into being.

[baronet68]

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

[Capt Thompson]

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

[baronet68]

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

How can I get an autographed copy?

[Capt Thompson]

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

How can I get an autographed copy?

Book signing at next year's NatCon, won't have it to press in time for this year

[PHall]

Just for your information and enlightenment here is the currant guidance as found in DAFI 36-2903 7 FEBRUARY 2020 Incorprorating Change 3 3 DECEMBER 2021.

5.2 The Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP), Men's and Women's.

5.2.6. Patches. Patches will not extend past the boundary of the Velcro®.
5.2.6.1. Right Sleeve. A maximum of two patches may be worn.
5.2.6.1.1. The U.S. flag patch is mandatory and will be subdued using the Spice Brown color criteria (cloth) centered at the top of velcro and worn while in–garrison and deployed. [Note: Current subdued black and green (cloth) U.S. flags may be worn until 1 September 2020, then spice brown will be the only accepted version]. Infra-red U.S. flags are not authorized.
5.2.6.1.2. Organizational unit of assignment subdued spice brown color criteria patches are mandatory upon availability (non-unit entities such as Directorates, AF Elements are optional) and will be centered in the middle of the Velcro® area under the U.S. Flag. [Exception: For accessions, Airmen in training (e.g., USAFA, ROTC, OTS, BMT) the unit patch may be worn as directed by applicable commanders.] Note: Current subdued version of unit patch or no patch may be worn until the patch color conversion has been completed by the Institute of Heraldry. Wing commanders may authorize the wear of morale patches on Fridays or during special events. AFR and ANG commanders may authorize wear during weekend drills on Friday, Saturday or Sundays or during special events. Wing commanders will maintain a list of approved morale patches authorized to be worn within their wing. Morale patches must adhere to current subdued spice brown color scheme.
5.2.6.2. Left Sleeve. A maximum of two patches may be worn. ( The graduated commander's insignia does not count as one of two patches i.e. it may be worn in addition to two patches.)
5.2.6.2.1. The HHQ patch is mandatory except as provided in paragraph 5.2.6.2.4 The HHQ will be subdued using the Spice Brown color criteria (cloth) centered in the middle of the Velcro area. Higher Headquarters include but are not limited to the following organizations: Headquarters Air Force, Direct Reporting Units, Field Operating Agencies and MAJCOMs. Members of the ANG may wear the approved ANG patch or the approved gaining MAJCOM patch as authorized by their respective Adjutant General. Note: Current subdued version of HHQ patch or no patch may be worn until the patch color conversion has been completed by the Institute of Heraldry.

[Toad1168]

Are you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Boots will stay black because that's just how we are, tshirts would go to the current OCP brown shirts.

The "Boots will stay black because that's just how we are" does not necessarily ring true.  The ABU was the deviation from the norm and mainly due to cost, and some people's misguided idea that shining boots somehow makes a cadet better.

They can easily be changed to coyote brown.  Our full color patches make us distinctive enough.

[Capt Thompson]

I still think they would stay black, as every member already has black boots, and they would look a lot better with OCP's than they do with ABU's.

[Shuman 14]

I still think they would stay black, as every member already has black boots, and they would look a lot better with OCP's than they do with ABU's.

While the blue/green ABU boots were unique to the Air Force, tan and coyote boots are becoming more and more common, especially the coyote as the Army, Air Force, USMC, Navy and Space Force are using a coyote boot of some kind, only the Coast Guard still uses a black boot. Tan is no longer authorized but many of us just dyed our tan boots coyote to save money.

Yes you can get black boots anywhere, but your are likely now to find coyote boots everywhere too.

While the assumption is "every member already has black boots", that may not be the case. The Polo Shirt and grey trousers only specifies black shoes not boots. it is reasonable to expect a new member to have black shoes but not black boots... but I digress.

I would hope they would authorize the option for both black and coyote boots so no current member has to run out and buy new boots nor should a new member, who is prior service, have to discard any serviceable coyote boots he or she may have either.

[SarDragon]

IMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[Shuman 14]

IMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

Coyote boots under 100 dollars

[PHall]

Still have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

[SarDragon]

IMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

Coyote boots under 100 dollars

Are they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[Shuman 14]

Still have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Black boots are harder to see in low light levels than coyote boots... just saying. ;-D

BTW, why didn't CAP have a different boot requirement when both the USAF and CAP were wearing OG fatigues and BDUs? I understand the requirement for different tapes, badges and ranks but boots is just silly.

[Shuman 14]

Are they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

Child size coyote boots

[baronet68]

Are they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

Child size coyote boots

Sure, you can find almost anything online these days.  However, there is a lot of convenience in being able to try 'em before you buy 'em (especially when fitting the fast-growing feet of teens). 

Yes, I know... online retailers typically accept shoe returns for wrong-sized orders that haven't been worn outside, but it's a hassle shipping shoes back and forth.

There are over 2,500 brick-and-mortar stores across the country (counting just the big chains Champs, Big5, Dicks, and Foot Locker) which all sell black boots in a variety of sizes.  They even have Brannock Devices at the ready to assist if you need to special order a boot size not currently in-stock. 

CAP's uniform and insignia sources are already quite limited so why paint ourselves further into the corner adopting a less readily-available boot color?

[Shuman 14]

CAP's uniform and insignia sources are already quite limited so why paint ourselves further into the corner adopting a less readily-available boot color?

Which is why I recommend the authorization of BOTH black and coyote boots. If both are authorized, the question is mote.

[PHall]

DAFI 10-2702 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol 17 June 2021

1.2.3.2. The CAP-USAF Commander performs the following:

1.2.3.2.4. Approves CAP grade structure, wear and grooming standards for USAFstyle uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring distinction from DAF uniforms and identification cards;


The black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

[Jester]

Still have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Where is that written down?

[NIN]

While everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;
2) Black boots can be worn across the full spectrum of CAP utility uniforms both AF-style and corporate (ABU, BBDU, both FDUs, and CWU).

I get it, we want to look like Big Momma Blue and not like the red-headed stepchildren.

However:
1) We have a requirement for distinctiveness (as Phil quoted). That can surely be accomplished other ways (full color patches, our dark navy tapes, etc);
2) Tan/coyote boots are still fairly expensive. I can score a decent pair of black boots (either secret sneakers or regular combat boots) locally for around $50-75. I haven't seen tan/coyote boots of similar quality for that price. Usually, they're $100 and up and online-only (yes, I have seen Bellevilles via Sportman's Guide for $39).

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

[Ned]

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

I know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

[NIN]

I know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

Shush, Ned. I was making a point!

<checks Walk-in Uniform Closet>

1 pr spitshined jump boots, black
1 pr old-school flight boots, black

There's an old pair of Corcorans around here someplace that are retired. I think they're in the basement.

[Toad1168]

While everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;

You actually pointed out a glaring problem with the uniform reg that needs to be changed.  This was all fine and good when the boots were traditional combat boots that looked lore like dress shoes.  Now, everyone wears tactical boots which reallllyyyy look bad with blues. 

This provision needs to be stricken IMHO.

[Shuman 14]

The black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

Did any CAP-USAF Commander ever say that, or is that just your interpretation?

[Shuman 14]

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

But if you authorize both coyote and black, those that wish to can/could.

I think when CAP does get around to the OCP uniform, we should ask the CAP-USAF commander to authorize both.

FDU/OCP - coyote or black
CFDU/BBDU - black only

Those that want (or already have) coyote are happy.

Those that have (or want) black are happy.

Happy CAP'ers stay in CAP.

[PHall]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

[Shuman 14]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Not the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A new CAP member has free boots from the military because they are a veteran... they don't have to buy new boots... if coyote boots are authorized. That's a happy CAP'er.

[Fubar]

Not the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A fair and important concern to be sure, I've noticed the adult members who are here because of the uniforms never care about the cost, they have the brand new uniform ready to go on the first day it's authorized. The rest of the adult members purchase uniform combinations that never change.

Cadets seem to fall into three categories:

• The phase out dates are long enough that many cadets leave the program long before their uniform isn't allowed
• Cadets jump on the new uniform on day 1
• New cadets that purchase the cheapest option

It's the last group I think we should worry about.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Fair point....but I have met people who **almost** gave it up!

A new member, who looked a lot like me, got lectured by a long serving member about all the Must Have items....started with mess uniform, Class A, Class B, BDU (as it then was) and went on for a long time.  All absolutely must have within 6 months.

Thankfully, just at the point that said new member was wondering if this (CAP) was a good idea, an equally long-serving member got alongside him, tore up the list, and got him properly oriented..  That was 11 years ago and I can safely say that I've never needed most of that list, and i passed on the same advice when I got the chance!

[Eclipse]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

[PHall]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

[Shuman 14]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

If it were they would have kicked my out when I was a PFC. :-D

[NIN]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.

[PHall]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.

You mean you don't want that nasty yellow scarf with all of the little chicken feet on it?

[Shuman 14]

the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

The Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P

[NIN]

The Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P

Yeah.  That winter cap is unneeded at this point in my trajectory.  If I'm standing honor detail in in the midst of winter in New England,  I've made a series of bad life choices.

As for the scarf,  well, I have _some_ standards. That thing is just godawful. And also,  since it has the CAP-USAF emblem on it,  I'm not sure we're the intended audience for it anyway.

[Okayish Aviator]

So getting back to what the original thread was about, here's what you're likely to see with regard to the OCP when it's approved (and it will be eventually):

Right Sleeve Velcro

• US Flag 3x2 Full Color (may or may not be mandatory but everyone is going that direction)
• Attachment 4 patch like NCSA or Unit Emblem for Unit Assigned (Squadron or Group) as long as they meet the current 110-3 and are approved under the current standard.

Left Sleeve Velcro

• Graduated commander emblem on top, centered
• Wing or Region Assigned emblem

The other option they may go with is the opposite side flag on the left so it matches the flight duty uniform and requires less patch variation between uniforms.

Here are some of the benefits though for the OCP that I personally like:

• Now is more readily available as a USAF style uniform with 3 branches now using it. (Army, USAF, and USSF)
• Velcro for name tapes and rank make things easy for cadets. You got a new cadet and a bunch of OCP's in storage? Have them buy their name tapes and slap them on the uniform, off they go. Rank swaps are easy for promoting every couple of months.
• Way more comfortable and plenty of acceptable suppliers. It's not going away for a while like ABU's did. Congressional mandate prevents a new uniform unless all branches go to it. Joint uniforms for the win.
• Arm patches will be easy to change out and the pockets are big enough for phones and other stuff. I routinely change out my arm patch on my flight suit between NCSA patches and wing patch or specialty patches depending on mood. Now everyone would be able to do it.
• Black boots look better than they do with ABU's. Lets face it, black boots go on every uniform, they're here to stay, and that's not a bad thing.
• Sizing and fitment is better.

One thing I might be willing to entertain now that we've seen the space force do it, for cadet Officers and NCO's, we could go to a 2x3 Velcro rank patch so that we could get away from the metal rank on utilities. We'd still use them on dress uniforms so they'd still need them, but the Velcro or sew on rank could be bigger and it would be easier to make out ranks for various cadets.

Image for reference:

[Okayish Aviator]

And just because I'm a nerd about this stuff, here's what I'd propose it look like if we did 2x3 rank for cadet enlisted. I may have also made a minor change to the cadet officers...

These would all be embroidered instead of metal. A blank 2x3 would be used for airman basic.

[PHall]

And just because I'm a nerd about this stuff, here's what I'd propose it look like if we did 2x3 rank for cadet enlisted. I may have also made a minor change to the cadet officers...

These would all be embroidered instead of metal. A blank 2x3 would be used for airman basic.

This is all available right now for wear on the green fleece as are Name and CAP tapes.

[Okayish Aviator]

This is all available right now for wear on the green fleece as are Name and CAP tapes.

That is a benefit for the OCPs. It's all the fleece stuff they already make. Makes it all easy. Everything is 2"x2" though for rank at the moment. I've seen a pretty good mock up of the uniform. I won't share it though without permission.

[GroundHawg]

This is all available right now for wear on the green fleece as are Name and CAP tapes.

That is a benefit for the OCPs. It's all the fleece stuff they already make. Makes it all easy. Everything is 2"x2" though for rank at the moment. I've seen a pretty good mock up of the uniform. I won't share it though without permission.

So have you at least asked for permission? Inquiring minds need to know...

[Okayish Aviator]

So have you at least asked for permission? Inquiring minds need to know...

I have not, but I can.

[TheSkyHornet]

Why does someone need permission to share a mock uniform that isn't even used by CAP on a web forum not managed by CAP?

[PHall]

Maybe the person who made the uniform doesn't want to share it.

[TheSkyHornet]

So why t

Maybe the person who made the uniform doesn't want to share it.

So when then are we even talking about it...?

How many times have we had an OCP discussion at this point?

[Okayish Aviator]

Why does someone need permission to share a mock uniform that isn't even used by CAP on a web forum not managed by CAP?

Sorry it took so long to get back on here, life and actual CAP stuff takes precedence. So, the image I was shown was shared in person and not sent to me. To share it I'd have to ask and did. This person doesn't want to share the actual image. That said, I have some OCP's and extra accoutrements laying around so I was able to make a fairly good approximation based on what I remember with some pins to keep stuff in place. Should be pretty close to what actually comes about. Obviously, blanked out some of the basic identifying markings.



Some things I'd expect:
-Nametapes/CAP Tape and Rank can be either all sewn on or all velcro, no mixing of the two.
-Badges sewn on (probably because they're too small otherwise.)
-Flag and a Sqd, Gp, NCSA or other attachment 4 patch (command council etc.) on right side
-Wing or Region patch on Left side
-Black boots stay since they have so much commonality with other uniforms. That said, they don't look bad. Better than ABU's/Black Boots.
-Graduated commanders would wear the commander patch above the wing/region patch on the left velcro panel.
-Current commanders would put them above the name tape I'd assume as is the norm.

But wait there's more! Commercially available all over the place and in plentiful supply at surplus stores and AAFES. WAAAAAAYYYYY more comfortable than the ABU's and the sizing options are better for long term use by cadets for those that fit in the smaller uniforms. In other words they'll get more time out of each uniform.

Rank for cadets will be easy too whether we use a blank tab with metal cadet enlisted rank like we have available already or go to an embroidered version like what we discussed above. Everything is already made for the fleece so there's no real change in what needs to be supplied from vanguard. All the sew on stuff still works. Personally, I like the idea of embroidered so the cadets aren't losing pins during hard use and poking themselves with the pins.

I know the process has started, so it's just a matter of time. We all know how long it takes to get the approvals to go through. I will say though given the push to redo the heraldry stuff with the 110-3 that just came out, they'll probably require any unit emblem being worn to have that approval before hand.

[NIN]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

[PHall]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Though I bet that Scamguard will have them available within 30 days, if not sooner, of the approval date of the uniform.
They're like AAFES, they never miss a profit making opportunity.

[Okayish Aviator]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Though I bet that Scamguard will have them available within 30 days, if not sooner, of the approval date of the uniform.
They're like AAFES, they never miss a profit making opportunity.

I wouldn't be surprised for a new sku especially since the old ones wouldn't be getting retired. But I totally see it on the logistical side being easier.

[Jester]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Then units need to buy a ton of blank tabs and start permanently mounting their existing pin-ons to them by bending the pins.  Swapping them back and forth on the same tab is going to screw up the tab and the ranks (I've had Vanguard pins bend trying to put them on a shirt fresh out of the package).

Embroidered is the way to go and I doubt VG cares.

[PHall]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Then units need to buy a ton of blank tabs and start permanently mounting their existing pin-ons to them by bending the pins.  Swapping them back and forth on the same tab is going to screw up the tab and the ranks (I've had Vanguard pins bend trying to put them on a shirt fresh out of the package).

Embroidered is the way to go and I doubt VG cares.

They will care if they think they can make some money on it. That's always been their MO.

[Jester]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Then units need to buy a ton of blank tabs and start permanently mounting their existing pin-ons to them by bending the pins.  Swapping them back and forth on the same tab is going to screw up the tab and the ranks (I've had Vanguard pins bend trying to put them on a shirt fresh out of the package).

Embroidered is the way to go and I doubt VG cares.

They will care if they think they can make some money on it. That's always been their MO.

So I doubt they'll waste any time offering embroidered ranks because they know they'll sell like hotcakes. 

[Okayish Aviator]

Not adding SKUs to our favorite preferred vendor is a good thing: pining cadet rank on the blank tab works.

Then units need to buy a ton of blank tabs and start permanently mounting their existing pin-ons to them by bending the pins.  Swapping them back and forth on the same tab is going to screw up the tab and the ranks (I've had Vanguard pins bend trying to put them on a shirt fresh out of the package).

Embroidered is the way to go and I doubt VG cares.

They will care if they think they can make some money on it. That's always been their MO.

So I doubt they'll waste any time offering embroidered ranks because they know they'll sell like hotcakes. 

That's my perspective too. Plus, if we went to a 2x3 for cadet enlisted, and embroidered... They're bigger and easy to see especially for those of us who got their first membership cards on chiseled stone slabs.

Space force guardians are calling the 2x3 "The Slab"

[SarDragon]

I doubt you have a stone card. Those went away in the 70s.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[Okayish Aviator]

I doubt you have a stone card. Those went away in the 70s.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

I did not, although sometimes I feel like it. My CAPID is in the 3XXXXX so new members are as far away from me as those with CAPIDs in the 0XXXXX. 😵😅

[baronet68]

I doubt you have a stone card. Those went away in the 70s.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

I did not, although sometimes I feel like it. My CAPID is in the 3XXXXX so new members are as far away from me as those with CAPIDs in the 0XXXXX. 😵😅

Well, there aren't any members in the 0xxxxx range.  When the renumbering of existing members took place (because it was realized that using Social Security numbers wasn't such a good idea) they listed out everyone in order by SSN and then started issuing new numbers beginning at 100000. 

As a result, because SSNs issued on the east coast are closer to zero than those issued on the west coast, there were practically brand new members on the east coast who were issued CAPID numbers that were lower than 40+ year members on the west coast. 

In my case, being from Washington state (where SSNs start with 53x-xx-xxx) meant that my CAPID 141xxx was lower that basically everyone from Oregon (where SSNs start with 54x-xx-xxxx).

By the way, the person with CAPID 100000 is still a member today.

[Okayish Aviator]

*the more you know*

That's awesome!

[SarDragon]

If you want more info on CAPID history, do a search for "CAPID" with me as author.