Foreign Badges

[Shuman 14]

In the locked USPA Parachutist Badge Thread, Col Ninness wrote:

The last reference is under para 10.10.2.1 for foreign badges. It reads, in part, "Are only worn in the conferring country or while attending official and social functions hosted by the awarding government (reference AFI 36-2903, para 10.5.2)"

So if I travel to, say, England, with CAP, and somehow manage to make some jumps with my brother skydivers at the Army Parachute Association's facility at Netheravon, and they had some goofball ceremony that night and awarded me Brit jump wings, I could only wear them in the host country, or at a social function hosted by the British Embassy or Consulates here in the USA.

That is such an edge case that I can't even fathom how that set of circumstances would come about, because, well, if I'm traveling to England, I'm either bringing my rig, or I'm bringing my uniforms, but chances are I'm not bringing both.

Since the USAF has published interim instructions revising AFI36-2903 to allow for the wear of Foreign Badges outside of the conferring country, should CAP not also publish interim instructions revising CAPR39-1 to comply with AFI36-2903 which would allow the wear of foreign badges on the CAP uniform CONUS?

Just as an FYI the Instruction now reads:

10.2.2.3. Foreign badges. Aviation, medical insignia and parachutist badges are the only
foreign badges authorized to be worn on Air Force uniforms on a daily basis, CONUS or
OCONUS. Do not wear foreign aviation badges unless wearing a U.S. aviation badge.

That being said, half the graduating class at the Air Force Academy seems to be sporting a German Military Proficiency Badge. The GMPB does have a first aid test involved in its general military skill qualification, but I think its a stretch to classify it as a "medical insignia" but they are wearing it on a daily basis.

I also am seeing quite a few AFROTC cadets sporting a GMPB too. 

[NIN]

CAP's guidance has always lagged behind the USAF's wear pattern.

Since we don't do so much in the way of OCONUS ops, its kind of a moot point.  Its not like we're deploying people to various European or Oceanic nations that have, say, aviation forces that we might be able to wind up with a badge from.

EDIT: and its not like there's any shortage of people getting authorization to wear foreign badges on CAP uniforms. Or, just doing it.

[Capt Thompson]

Since the USAF has published interim instructions revising AFI36-2903 to allow for the wear of Foreign Badges outside of the conferring country, should CAP not also publish interim instructions revising CAPR39-1 to comply with AFI36-2903 which would allow the wear of foreign badges on the CAP uniform CONUS?

As I understand it, any change to the AFI will generate a discussion at the next uniform board meeting, but won't necessarily result in a change to 39-1. When more than half of your adult membership can't wear an AF Style uniform in the first place, and a very small percentage of those who can have a set of foreign wings, would such a change really be worth the time and effort to change the reg? How many members would this really effect?

[TheSkyHornet]

I guess I struggle to find the significance of military badges (and ribbons) on CAP uniforms.

I fully appreciate the recruiting stance to have service members wear their items, but I guess I just don't really understand the CAP correlation of it, particularly as it relates to foreign service awards/decorations and this parachute badge conversation. CAP doesn't even permit parachuting as an activity let alone as a mission possibility. Likewise, we don't have air assault forces, or sappers, or NFOs, or SWOs, or EOD.

I don't at all discredit the earning of those items, but I'm disconnected from what any of it has to do with CAP. Is it solely because it's the AF-style uniform, and we just point to the AFI for sake of ease?

[Capt Thompson]

I guess I struggle to find the significance of military badges (and ribbons) on CAP uniforms.

I fully appreciate the recruiting stance to have service members wear their items, but I guess I just don't really understand the CAP correlation of it, particularly as it relates to foreign service awards/decorations and this parachute badge conversation. CAP doesn't even permit parachuting as an activity let alone as a mission possibility. Likewise, we don't have air assault forces, or sappers, or NFOs, or SWOs, or EOD.

I don't at all discredit the earning of those items, but I'm disconnected from what any of it has to do with CAP. Is it solely because it's the AF-style uniform, and we just point to the AFI for sake of ease?

Good point.....at some point it's just about wearing bling. If you want to bring in your badges to show Cadets in a shadow box one night, that's absolutely fine, but your CIB or German jump wings have no relation to your CAP experience, so why fill your uniform with unrelated badges?

[Eclipse]

I just don't really understand the CAP correlation of it,

There isn't any.

[GroundHawg]

I would be think that we will follow the USAF AFI guidance on this in the future (notice I didn't say near future) and allow the wear of foreign badges.

This will affect a relatively small portion of the membership, but does open up many opportunities for our IACE cadets, the overseas squadrons, and those more motivated members to earn some non-traditional military hardware and make some awesome and lasting memories. And also those members who served in other countries militaries can now proudly wear what they have earned, again, a small minority. 

I personally have a few to choose from and if given the opportunity will proudly wear one on my blues.

[Jester]

I think showcasing a breadth of military experience is important for advertising the depth of our membership.

[Eclipse]

I think showcasing a breadth of military experience is important for advertising the depth of our membership.

Hard to argue that...

...except for the significant number of former, and even current, military who aren't allowed to
showcase their breadth of military experience.

And also the non-trivial fact that the majority of members with a breadth of military experience
will never be seen in uniform by anyone but other members, in a context in which that breadth of
military experience is essentially irrelevant (except for the showcasing part, of course, which seems
to be the primary value).

[Jester]

This would be so much easier if we just said "Wear badges on AF style uniforms IAW the most current version of AFI 36-2903."

Again, making simple stuff hard since 1941.

[TheSkyHornet]

I think showcasing a breadth of military experience is important for advertising the depth of our membership.

Hard to argue that...

...except for the significant number of former, and even current, military who aren't allowed to
showcase their breadth of military experience.

And also the non-trivial fact that the majority of members with a breadth of military experience
will never be seen in uniform by anyone but other members, in a context in which that breadth of
military experience is essentially irrelevant (except for the showcasing part, of course, which seems
to be the primary value).

The majority of prior service members don't even wear the Air Force-style uniform; and, thus, nobody would even know that they're a prior anyhow.

[Pinecone]

But then that opens the question of the limitations of badges on the corporate uniforms also.

Why can I wear my USAF wings on blues, but not on a aviator shirt and flight suit patch?

Same with foreign badges.

[SarDragon]

But then that opens the question of the limitations of badges on the corporate uniforms also.

Why can I wear my USAF wings on blues, but not on a aviator shirt and flight suit patch?

Same with foreign badges.

Simply put, the Air Force says no. They consider the corporate uniforms as civilian clothing, and prohibit wearing of certain items there. Other services have similar regulations concerning mixing of uniform and civilian clothing items.

[Shuman 14]

Simply put, the Air Force says no. They consider the corporate uniforms as civilian clothing, and prohibit wearing of certain items there. Other services have similar regulations concerning mixing of uniform and civilian clothing items.

And yet anyone who is honorably discharged can wear their military decorations, either full-sized or mini-medals, on a suit coat or tux jacket for military "appropriate" occasions. I guess USAF Auxiliary functions must some be "inappropriate"?

Funny no one gets upset when Patriot Guard Riders pin their ribbons and badges to a leather vest but God forbid you do it on a CAP Corporate uniform, but if its a uniform, how can it be civilian clothing?

Stupid rule. Let me say it again... stupid rule. 

[PHall]

Simply put, the Air Force says no. They consider the corporate uniforms as civilian clothing, and prohibit wearing of certain items there. Other services have similar regulations concerning mixing of uniform and civilian clothing items.

And yet anyone who is honorably discharged can wear their military decorations, either full-sized or mini-medals, on a suit coat or tux jacket for military "appropriate" occasions. I guess USAF Auxiliary functions must some be "inappropriate"?

Funny no one gets upset when Patriot Guard Riders pin their ribbons and badges to a leather vest but God forbid you do it on a CAP Corporate uniform, but if its a uniform, how can it be civilian clothing?

Stupid rule. Let me say it again... stupid rule. 

Yep, stupid rule . . . . . that you agreed to follow when you signed that membership application form.

[Shuman 14]

Simply put, the Air Force says no. They consider the corporate uniforms as civilian clothing, and prohibit wearing of certain items there. Other services have similar regulations concerning mixing of uniform and civilian clothing items.

And yet anyone who is honorably discharged can wear their military decorations, either full-sized or mini-medals, on a suit coat or tux jacket for military "appropriate" occasions. I guess USAF Auxiliary functions must some be "inappropriate"?

Funny no one gets upset when Patriot Guard Riders pin their ribbons and badges to a leather vest but God forbid you do it on a CAP Corporate uniform, but if its a uniform, how can it be civilian clothing?

Stupid rule. Let me say it again... stupid rule. 

Yep, stupid rule . . . . . that you agreed to follow when you signed that membership application form.

Correct, but I never agreed to not b***h about it and other stupid rules that contradict common sense and other established USAF policies.

[Capt Thompson]

Was just at the airport the other day flying from Detroit to Las Vegas, and I came to the realization, a healthy percentage of airline pilots are former military, yet not one of the Delta pilots I saw had a single medal, ribbon, foreign jump wings, etc. It was almost like they were wearing a uniform that had nothing to do with their military service, and were able to function without military accoutrements plastered all over. Likewise the TSA, airport security, etc. All wearing uniforms without Army badges plastered everywhere.

My boys' Cubmaster is former military, yet doesn't wear anything non-BSA on his BSA uniform, crazy I know.

My wife works in a hospital where a few of the nurses are former US military medics, yet not a single ribbon or foreign badge on their scrubs. I know I know, who could possibly wear a uniform without advertising their non-related military service somewhere on it? Complete craziness I know, but it happens everyday in the real world.

[GroundHawg]

Was just at the airport the other day flying from Detroit to Las Vegas, and I came to the realization, a healthy percentage of airline pilots are former military, yet not one of the Delta pilots I saw had a single medal, ribbon, foreign jump wings, etc. It was almost like they were wearing a uniform that had nothing to do with their military service, and were able to function without military accoutrements plastered all over. Likewise the TSA, airport security, etc. All wearing uniforms without Army badges plastered everywhere.

My boys' Cubmaster is former military, yet doesn't wear anything non-BSA on his BSA uniform, crazy I know.

My wife works in a hospital where a few of the nurses are former US military medics, yet not a single ribbon or foreign badge on their scrubs. I know I know, who could possibly wear a uniform without advertising their non-related military service somewhere on it? Complete craziness I know, but it happens everyday in the real world.

None of those examples are para-military organizations, wear military uniforms, nor are any of them auxiliaries to any branch of the military.

Apples and Oranges

[Shuman 14]

None of those examples are para-military organizations, wear military uniforms, nor are any of them auxiliaries to any branch of the military.

Apples and Oranges

Exactly.

Lets look at the closest/similar organizations to CAP the USGCAux and the various SDFs.

All Military Medals and Ribbons are authorized. USCGAux awards take precedence to all others. So An USCGAux Achievement Medal is worn before/above a USCG Achievement Medal and all other Services (Navy, PHS, NOAA, Army and Air Force) are worn after/below it with Naval Services in precedence to Ground and Air Services.

You can wear pretty much any badge you earn, but you can only wear two, one above the ribbons and one below the ribbons. There is no requirement for a USCGAux badge to be worn such as USCGAux Pilot Wings must be worn above Army Pilot Wings. Any shooting badge (Army, Marine Corps, National Match Badges, etc.) must be worn below the ribbons.

SDFs have different rules by State but for example, the New Your Guard prohibits the wear of any type of weapons qualification award on their uniform as a way to stress their non-combat role so no Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force qual ribbons and no Army and Marine Corps  qual badges, no President's Hundred Tabs, etc.

On the hand, some SDF's have very liberal policies, the Indiana Guard Reserve authorizes the wear of all Military Awards, all other States' awards, SGAUS awards and badges, USCGAux awards and badges and CAP awards and badges on their uniforms. Unit awards have to be worn on the right side and as ribbons only. So CAP-NCUCs and CAP-UCs are worn on the right side of their uniforms, as ribbons only, after all other unit awards.

Now to Cpt Thompson's post, I've never seen TSA's dress uniform, only the working uniforms they wear while on the Airport floor, but I suspect, like every other Federal Law Enforcement Agency, when they wear their dress uniform (USAF Service Uniform-A equivalent) there are provisions for wearing earned awards and decorations on it.

As to Nurses and doctors, even in the military, they almost always wear scrubs while on duty. They tend to be camouflage scrubs, and the only insignia I've ever seen is a rank badge... if that.   

[PHall]

Using the CGAux as an example is a nogo too. The CGAux is controlled by the Coast Guard, which has vastly different policies then the Air Force has.
You're comparing apples to papayas here.

[Shuman 14]

Using the CGAux as an example is a nogo too. The CGAux is controlled by the Coast Guard, which has vastly different policies then the Air Force has.
You're comparing apples to papayas here.

I said closest, there is nothing exactly like CAP. More like comparing Golden Delicious to Fuji. Just saying.