Military badges on CAP uniforms?

[ricks]

To be clear there is no direct connection between grade and the mission, or a member's duties.

You could be the CDC and also the finance officer, never get a CPO rating and use the Finance Master to progress to Lt. Col.  These days, thanks to WBP, there's not a whole lot for FM's to do, and simple job performance is all that's really required to get to Master.

Same would be for ES, etc.

Were we really mission-focused for progression, there would be a mandate that your staff postings required progression in the related specialty.

I like that except for the logistics of it. At least in my squadron, there is quite a bit of turnover in staff positions with some folks wearing multiple hats. I know the argument will be related to retention and that is true. We are working to fix the retention and slow the turnover. However, we have had unforseen changes in leadership as volunteer organizations do, totaly out of our control. Looking at it from a national view, it would be a nightmare to implement, in my opinion.

I agree, and this comes back to the volunteer paradigm - military services and even to some extent private corporations can simply tell someone to do something, and require they complete the requisite training.

We're forever stuck in the "ask me nicely" mode, with a "You're lucky I showed up at all" response.  Unless NHQ is willing to accept the attrition which would come with raising expectations across the board, and consider billeting members, it will continue this way.

I iam sure that that would be a cold day. CAP has given emphasis on one benefit we provide to our customers, ES speaking, we provide many warm and somewhat trained bodies in a hurry, for free or really cheap. Now, personally, I don't think that is all we have to give, but that is the emphasis and has been for years. What you are saying kind of makes us contractors. I don't know that the ES world has the elastic economy to support that.

[Prospector]

Wow, lots of discussion since I was on yesterday. 

The discussion seems to have wandered around a bit. Even though I am a fairly new member, I trully believe that CAP has a distinct place in the overall military - civil service complex. But in all of these discussions we have to have a context to maintain focus. CAP is what it is and nothing more or less. CAP is an all-volunteer civilian paramilitary non-profit service organization - period.

We are not the active AF, the Air Guard, AF Reserve, State Militia, State Defense Force, or anything else. We have a unique identity (albeit somewhat blurry at times).

If we keep this truth in view at all times a lot of the frustrations being voiced will disappear. I see CAP as the place where anyone with or without military experience, or with or without the qualifications or desire to actually be in the military can serve their community and country.

I personally see that CAP as an organization has a very good working skills and promotions system. A person's rank in CAP are not designed to be a direct reflection on their command ability as much as they are in the active military. The progression is actually very similar to the military model overall - it takes skills advancement, time in service, and time in grade to promote.

If you look closely at the current regs, a Senior Member who successfully completes every requirement on time beginning on day one of their membership will take a minimum of 10 years to promote from SM to LtCol. And, you cannot promote any further to Col or Gen without actually taking on a national, region, or wing command assignment. Pretty high committment level for a civilian volunteer if you ask me. Most other non-profit service organizations just hand you a "command" for showing up and being elected by the membership.

In terms of uniforms, having just one set of CAP distinctive dress uniforms and ditching the AF style ones actually benefits CAP members and encourages them to maintain grooming standards and general common sense hygiene. One thing that CAP has is the ability to say, "This is our dress uniform - if you want to wear it, just shave the beard and meet our other physical fitness / weight requirements. If you don't want to wear it, or can't meet the requirements, that's fine too, no harm, no foul. You can wear no uniform at all. As long as you are willing to actually participate according to your own abilities or limitations, we have a place for you - it just might not be representing us officially in uniform."

Where  CAP shoots itself in the foot (as someone earlier suggested) is in letting the AF define or pressure them into some uniform requirements that discourages volunteers who are otherwise technically qualified from participating. Remember, all of us pay to serve, we don't get paid to serve.

Whether or not you agree with how the new corporate dress uniform came to be, it really is the right direction to go for CAP. We can still maintain our close relationship with the AF while just having our own uniforms and our own standards. Of course, we should have some professional standards, and believe me, at least on paper, CAP is one of the better defined organizations out there.

So, bottom line is - CAP is what CAP is. If you can't accept CAP's organizational identity as it is, then maybe you would be better served by joining any one of the military organizations previously listed. Remember, CAP is not for perfect people, it is a place for regular people with aviation interests to contribute to our community and nation in a very meaningful way.

Most of us have "been there and done that" in terms of regular military. CAP is very good for those of us who like to wear military uniforms and to participate in a "military setting" without all the extra baggage of real military life. CAP is sort of a middle ground or stepping stone (depending on which direction you are heading) between otherwise boring civilian service organizations, and combat prepared regular troops.

Ok, I think I've started to ramble a bit so I'll stop for now.

[SilverEagle2]

In terms of uniforms, having just one set of CAP distinctive dress uniforms and ditching the AF style ones actually benefits CAP members

Negative. Having one set of "equivalent" uniforms for each AF style is good for CAP. The problem is that people keep attempting to add more combos with arbitrary requirements for W&G.

Honestly, the AF combos are our heritage and should remain so. However, those that cannot/choose not to adhere to the W&G standards should be allowed to wear any corporate equivalent. This eliminates any problems for wear and reduces the needs for other, not necessary combinations.

Disconnect from the AF heritage and watch your numbers decline. Cadet's will not want to join, parents will not get exposed, and the next generation of Seniors will wither away.

So in summary, stop campaigning to have the United States Air Force Auxiliary to stop wearing the United States Air Force uniforms. It would be disastrous to CAP.

It is a privilege to be allowed to wear the AF uniforms and we should do so with pride and dignity as we serve.

Then again, in reality, the above is only my opinion to which I am entitled to. And yes, I am a former Cadet.

[Prospector]

Negative. Having one set of "equivalent" uniforms for each AF style is good for CAP. The problem is that people keep attempting to add more combos with arbitrary requirements for W&G.

The problem with your answer (as I see it) is that your interpretation of the definition of "uniform" is off just a tad. To be uniform is to present a cohesive and non-interpretive and constant design. Having multiple "equivalents" of a "uniform" is not uniformity. One dress uniform design is enough, which design to agree upon is the question.

Honestly, the AF combos are our heritage and should remain so. However, those that cannot/choose not to adhere to the W&G standards should be allowed to wear any corporate equivalent. This eliminates any problems for wear and reduces the needs for other, not necessary combinations.

The uniform itself is not the end all of the CAP's heritage. Since CAP's inception we have had a uniquely distinctive uniform. We have never worn the active-duty Air Force uniform without CAP distinctive identification.

Disconnect from the AF heritage and watch your numbers decline. Cadet's will not want to join, parents will not get exposed, and the next generation of Seniors will wither away.

Agreed - however, for Senior Members staying with the Air Force style uniform does not equate to "keeping our heritage" as you have stated. Heritage is more than a uniform.

So in summary, stop campaigning to have the United States Air Force Auxiliary to stop wearing the United States Air Force uniforms. It would be disastrous to CAP.

It is a privilege to be allowed to wear the AF uniforms and we should do so with pride and dignity as we serve.

Agreed - however I believe your view of the CAP identity is a little off. CAP is not entirely the Air Force Auxiliary. We are a separate corporate organization that, as needed, is contracted by the Air Force for missions. When acting in this capacity for the Air Force, and only when acting in this capacity, are those members who are specifically involved in the mission considered to be acting as the Air Force Auxiliary.

I know this is a fine line and members can approve or disapprove of this relationship, but that is the truth of it as it now stands. When not specifically involved in an AFEM, members are not AF Aux, they are CAP.

This fact does not diminish the CAP in any way, it merely points out the limitations of our role as the Air Force Auxiliary today. The CAP of today (at least legally speaking) is 90% Corporate and 10% AF Aux. Do I like it this way - no. I believe that CAP should be designated as the Air Force Auxiliary the same as the Coast Guard Aux is, or even more like the Public Health Commission Corps is. And, I think we should (just my limited opinion and going out on a limb here) be under the auspices of Homeland Security, similar to the Coast Guard and the Border Patrol - and not the Air Force.

Again, this is all just unofficial opinion and cooler talk and everyone here is entitled to be able to speak their mind.

[jeancalvinus]

While I would like to wear my awards from the service, I understand why CAP makes one meet grooming and height/ weight standards for the wear of the AF style, and then rewards that with the allowance of wearing military awards. It just looks more professional.

I for one am too stubborn to shave my beard, so although I have a nice fruit salad from my days in the service, it shall remain in the drawer, collecting dust.

[Eclipse]

While I would like to wear my awards from the service, I understand why CAP makes one meet grooming and height/ weight standards for the wear of the AF style, and then rewards that with the allowance of wearing military awards. It just looks more professional.

I for one am too stubborn to shave my beard, so although I have a nice fruit salad from my days in the service, it shall remain in the drawer, collecting dust.

There is no "reward / punishment" situation regarding the grooming standards or what you can wear on your uniform (or can't).

[lordmonar]

Let's just suppose for a moment.......

Let's say that starting 1 Jan 2010 no senior member can wear the USAF style uniforms.  Everyone has to go to the CSU/Polo/BBDU/Blue Flight Suit.  Cadets retain the USAF style uniforms and adopt the ABU in 2011.

Let's say there is a mass exodus of members because they can't wear the USAF uniforms anymore.   

I think I would count CAP lucky to have rid ourselves of people with questionable motives.

Don't get me wrong......if I were God For A Day....I would force the USAF to let everyone (even the fat and fuzzy) wear USAF style uniforms and ditch all the corporate uniforms except the polo combo......but I joined CAP to work with Cadets, do ES missions for my city, state and nation (I seem to remember that phrase somewhere)...spread the good word of how Aerospace power makes all our lives better and to hang out with some cool people who feel the same.

If your dedication to our three missions is based on whether or not you get to wear AF Blues or not......I won't spend a lot of time crying over your exit.

[Eclipse]

If your dedication to our three missions is based on whether or not you get to wear AF Blues or not......I won't spend a lot of time crying over your exit.

+1

[Short Field]

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

[bosshawk]

Hooah!!!!!

[MSgt Van]

 :clap:
Friggin' A...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think that the solution is within reach, but too many people at NHQ are unable to see it.

My solution:

The TPU is OK as a uniform for officers.  One can quibble about the double-breasted style and the stupid-ugly silver braid, but overall it is OK.  If it were the ONLY uniform for officers, I could live with it, and our stance would be that as the AF Aux we wear a "Modified" USAF uniform.

But... (There's ALWAYS a "But" it seems)...  I have EARNED certain awards on active duty.  Service on active duty is something that I have done that not all CAP members have done.  Recognizing that service on a "Modified" AF uniform is a GOOD thing, in spite of the anti-military attitude of the NLO. 

If the regulation were written to permit ALL earned awards on the TPU, I would support scrapping the AF uniform for officers, and finally and again placing CAP in a UNIform.

I know some of the guardhouse lawyers will try to say it is illegal to wear ribbons and badges on the TPU, but that is pure bunk.  Police and fire departments routinely wear military awards on their dress uniforms, and as a Legionaire I can wear my ribbon rack on my hat without the "Ribbon Police" coming to take me away to a Kamp.

[arajca]

People keep quoting Army, Navy, etc regs to prevent wearing of military awards on the CAP uniforms. I have sent, a few times, a request up the chain to have CAP officially request authorization from the Army, Navy, etc to wear their awards on the CAP uniform. I have never heard any results. Perhaps others could send similar suggestions up their chains to see if they can get somewhere with it.

[SilverEagle2]

however I believe your view of the CAP identity is a little off

I am a second generation CAP member both Cadet and Senior. You are an admitted new member. I perhaps have a more traditional and historical view of the CAP identity that perhaps does not equate to your recent indoctrination.

I think I would count CAP lucky to have rid ourselves of people with questionable motives.

I did not imply that there would be a mass exodus of current members. I simply stated that a good draw of cadets that eventually become good seniors would dwindle. Your statement seems to infer a generalization that seniors that want to wear the USAF combos have questionable motives. While I agree there are a few, they are not the rule.

If your dedication to our three missions is based on whether or not you get to wear AF Blues or not

I believe that well groomed, correct uniform wearing seniors, enhances all three missions. Unfortunately, mass dilution over the years has created a significant rift between the Cadet Programs and the Senior Professional Development programs. Ever hear a cadet say, "I'll never be a senior." Unfortunate.

I am a Scout Master as well, and I can tell you that some of the more effective units are ones that have and abide by a strict uniform policy. While the scouts do not have the challenges of W&G limitations, there is strong cohesion amongst the  scouts and the leaders because they are in the same uniforms.

Now back on topic...

I am a proponent of the USAF combos as is probably obvious. However, I also know that it is unrealistic for me to expect all senior officers fitting inside the W&G model. That is why I agree with a single alternative to the USAF combos to provide the needed alternatives for those that are outside of the W&G envelope. Problem is that we have to many alternatives and this is a contributor to the dilution. I still feel that the one alternative idea is "uniform" and provides the needed structure to continue the Uniformed Traditions of CAP. We are a uniformed organization and one that is sponsored and allowed the USAF combo. There can be no argument that this is a huge draw to cadets. It instills a desire for discipline,  common goals, and camaraderie amongst them and others within the organization. Why then would you limit it only to cadets. Are we the seniors a different organization?

Some of the best things that are parts of our Sponsor Service are inherently brought into CAP simply through the use of the USAF uniforms. Would you want that to end once you become a senior? Yes, I know there is more to CAP service than the uniform, but it is a large part of it.

I agree, military awards should be allowed on the CSU and Aviator combos. You earned them and then after or even during your active service you participate in another Uniformed Volunteer Service, you should be allowed to wear on ALL combos of that service if authorized on one.

Police and fire departments routinely wear military awards on their dress uniforms

Keep in mind though, these are not considered civilian organizations, volunteer or not. We are.

[Eclipse]

Police and fire departments routinely wear military awards on their dress uniforms

Keep in mind though, these are not considered civilian organizations, volunteer or not. We are.

?

These are "civil" authorities, versus military, which is the only relevance to this discussion.  I'd also be willing to bet that many departments that allow the wear of military ribbons on their uniforms are doing so out of respect and lack of "looking it up" and would find they are in a gray area at best, if not in violation of the law.

[SilverEagle2]

Fair enough.

[lordmonar]

The base problem as has been stated is that there are just too many uniforms.

Having two sets of uniform rules for one group of members lessens our professionalism.

Even if everyone was 100% correct in their uniform wear we still look like a motley crew to outsiders.

Option one is to get with the USAF and work out a way to get everyone in USAF uniforms.  If we can't come to a compromise on that....

Option two is to get everyone (officers) into the same corporate uniforms.

Wether we can or can't wear military badges or decorations on CSUs is a secondary issue.

I am a 22 year USAF veteran and I don't wear my USAF blingage on my CAP uniforms.....there is just too much.

I do wear my USAF medals with my CAP medals on my mess dress though. 

Long and short of it is....we need to get uniformed.  That is one set of uniforms for everyone.  No special cases, no exceptions, no compromise.

Then we present a "unified" presentation to our cadets, our other members and our customers.

And I still stand with my comments that if a members dedication to the program is tied in with what uniform they are allowed to wear then we probably can do with out that person.

[Spike]

HEY.....you can wear your earned military decorations and awards on the CSU.  However there are only three days when it is allowed by Army/Navy/Air Force policy.  Those would be three national holidays.......can anyone name them?

So to answer the question, yes you can wear the awards, but only on certain days.  So is there really a point to wearing them??

I understand the sacrifices made by members of the Uniformed Services, I too have made sacrifices and been awarded decorations.  However, CAP is not a Uniformed Service.  We must follow strict guidelines and US Code regarding civilian wearing of decorations, on a civilian suit.  PERIOD.

It sucks, yes, but until it changes, follow the rules.  It will change, I have no doubt, but lets not get too emotional in here over it. 

[SilverEagle2]

And I still stand with my comments that if a members dedication to the program is tied in with what uniform they are allowed to wear then we probably can do with out that person.

Agreed Sir.

[Eclipse]

I am a 22 year USAF veteran and I don't wear my USAF blingage on my CAP uniforms.....there is just too much.

There's another side road to this as well - members who wear only their military ribbons, which is just as wrong, or worse, than not being allowed to wear them on the corporates.

Some tell me they just don't feel like taking the time and already had the rack put together, some say they can't figure out the "complicated order", and my favorites "These are the only 'real' ones, so that's all I'm going to wear." (Well thank you very much, your holiness...)

The ability to wear some decorations from prior or other service is a nice to have, but if your rack doesn't have anything CAP on it, that defeats the whole purpose, because prior service ribbons don't mean a heck of a lot in a CAP context.  They don't tell me anything about what you can do or have done in CAP, which as a commander, is my primary reason for reading your rack to start with.