State Adjutant General Awards KSWG a Ribbon

[RickFranz]

Recently the KS State Adjutant General awarded some members of CAP with a ribbon for our service in 3 different natural events.  I have searched the reg's and this forum.  I have read and heard all kinds of different opinions on wheather we can wear them, and if so what would be order of precedent

We had quite a few folks receive this award I think it would be a snub if we could not wear it.

[isuhawkeye]

General P told me I should wear mine. 

This board is adamant that they should not be worn.

I have seen some people wear theirs.  I never did


Hows that for an answer for you

[cnitas]

This is a little vague.
What ribbon?  Is it a state award or federal award?

If it is a state award, then sorry, it is not authorized for wear, no matter how cool. 
While General P may be right- Just wear it and nobody will care enough to say anything, but integrity says - do what is right, even when nobody is watching.

I happen to believe we should change this rule since we are working closer with the Guard than ever before, but I don't get to make those decisions.

[MIKE]

This is a little vague.
What ribbon?  Is it a state award or federal award?

Even if it was a federal award, a lot of members would not be able to wear it according to CAPR 39-3.

[cnitas]

Not wearing federally earned awards that would be worn if you entered into the miliary service, including our Air Medals that were awarded in WW2 is so moronically stupid (it is stupid beyond words) that I believe that that blurb in 39-3 is obviously a mistake made in haste, particularly in light of the fact that there is conflicting guidance in 39-1, as well as AF regulations pertaining to awarding the marksman ribbon to CAP members.

Was there ever a National Board meeting that discussed taking this right away from the membership or did it just show up in the pub. one day?

[Hawk200]

Not wearing federally earned awards that would be worn if you entered into the miliary service, including our Air Medals that were awarded in WW2 is so moronically stupid (it is stupid beyond words) that I believe that that blurb in 39-3 is obviously a mistake made in haste, particularly in light of the fact that there is conflicting guidance in 39-1, as well as AF regulations pertaining to awarding the marksman ribbon to CAP members.

Someone going active can't even wear a state decoration.

Just because a TAG awards it, doesn't mean it's a federal dec. Many states have their own decoration equivalent to Federal ones, and then there are decs with no Federal equivalent.

As to Federal decs on CAP uniforms, if it's awarded by "competent military authority" or someone in an equivalent position, I'm all for it.

Was there ever a National Board meeting that discussed taking this right away from the membership or did it just show up in the pub. one day?

Probably the latter. There are numerous oversights and dropouts in our pubs. When someone was "rewriting" the pub, they probably said "Ah, that's not important, no one has those anyway". And yes, the membership lost something. That's the disconnect between the Powers That Be, and those of us on the ground doing the mission.

[RickFranz]

Just a clear as mud 

But I guess that's where I started.

Thanks

[cnitas]

Someone going active can't even wear a state decoration.

Just because a TAG awards it, doesn't mean it's a federal dec. Many states have their own decoration equivalent to Federal ones, and then there are decs with no Federal equivalent.

As to Federal decs on CAP uniforms, if it's awarded by "competent military authority" or someone in an equivalent position, I'm all for it.

I get that.  State Decs are not allowed on the Federal uniform, or on CAP uniforms.  I believe we should try and change that.

My point is that 'if' you are somehow awarded a Humanitarian Service medal by the Active AF for serving along side of them in a CAP capacity, the 39-1 nonsense would tell you not to wear it.   Same goes for the Aerial Achievement medal, Air Medal, etc.

These are all medals that if you subsequently joined the Active AF, you would wear, but you would still not technically be allowed to wear them on the CAP uniform. 
Think dual member - AF/CAP.  Your 'real' AF uniform would include the Air medal-earned in CAP.  The CAP uniform would not have the Air medal 'Because' it was earned in CAP and not the AF 

This certianly cannot be the intended function of that note in the regulation.

[DNall]

The regs are pretty clear that you cannot wear state awards under any circumstance. We are a federal org. Ex - TAG can give all the ribbons he wants to reservists for assistance during a disaster, they're never going to wear them. That should remain the case.

As far as federal awards. It's a strict interpretation of the regs that they cannot be worn unless earned while in military service & by competent authority, versus earned as a CAP member. Obviously that was not the intention. It was written that way because CAP was not receiving federal decs so it became an oversight. Most people believe this should be addressed to better pave the way for exceptional actions to be recognized as appropriate by the AF when they see fit. As well as maybe a reg change on their end to lay out the process for doing so thru CAP-USAF.

[ddelaney103]

As far as federal awards. It's a strict interpretation of the regs that they cannot be worn unless earned while in military service & by competent authority, versus earned as a CAP member.

I'd like to see a reference for this, as I don't see it in my reading of the reg.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.  Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.  See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence..

As long as they were awarded "in writing by competent military authority," you should be OK, even if you were a civilian at the time.

In rereading the regs, it's looks like CAP is more relaxed than the AF in the wear of US civilian awards.  Both CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903 include a slot in the order of precedence for "United States Nonmilitary Decorations" (both after the Navy "E" Ribbon) but the AFI has a note that is missing in the CAPM:

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

However, since CAPM 39-1 is silent on the subject of state medals, you're pretty much out of luck.

[DNall]

39-3 has that note. It is the controlling regulation. 39-1 merely directs how such awards may or may not be displayed.

[davedove]

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

That is the relevant quote and it specifically says "earned while in military service".  So, if you were not in the military when you earned the medal, you cannot wear it on the uniform.

I don't like what it says, and I don't think it ought to be that way, but it is the current reg.

[ddelaney103]

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

That is the relevant quote and it specifically says "earned while in military service".  So, if you were not in the military when you earned the medal, you cannot wear it on the uniform.

I don't like what it says, and I don't think it ought to be that way, but it is the current reg.

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

[RiverAux]

While I disagree with the interpretations presented here regarding federal decorations, it is pretty clear that state awards are not allowed to be worn. 

[Cecil DP]

There is obviously a discrepancy between the Manual and the Regulation.  They should be reconciled and rewritten. It would only take a transposition of the line
"awarded by competent military authority" from the manual to the reg, and the elimination of the line "for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States"
CAPM 39-1.5-4
Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform
provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force,
Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding
service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. .

CAPR 39-3.A.d(b)
b. Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for
wear on the US Air Force uniform may be worn on the
CAP uniform when earned through qualification and
awarded by competent authority to a member for service
performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the
United States or its allies. (Foreign decorations, ribbons,
badges, etc., awarded in writing to a member not in the
Armed Forces of the United States may also be worn if
approved by National Headquarters.) Aeronautical
badges, emblems, insignia, ribbons, etc., given by a
foreign government, or agency, as souvenirs or emblems
of friendship do not qualify as earned awards and will not
be worn on the CAP uniform. All cases where doubt
exists as to the propriety of a badge, medal or other
device being worn will be referred to National
Headquarters for decision.

[jb512]

It should be rewritten to allow any ribbon/medal awarded by the RM to a member of CAP at anytime to be worn.  I still have reservations about state awards.

[DNall]

^agreed, but that's unfortunately not what it currently says. I believe the issue has been raised to NB members, but as of yet hasn't been acted on. I would say it isn't a high priority, but then look at all the other crap they're messing with.

[billford1]

Even if I never get to wear the ribbon I'm pleased at least for having received the Certificate from the Kansas State National Guard that went with the ribbon. Roger and Aubrey Eaton still haven't got theirs. They were on a team that went right out by where the sight was.

[RiverAux]

No matter how the uniform issue sorts itself out, the recognition of CAP members by the state military department is a very good thing.

[jb512]

No matter how the uniform issue sorts itself out, the recognition of CAP members by the state military department is a very good thing.

It's good.  As an auxiliary, us and the CGAUX are probably at about the same par as a state military when you look at the big picture.