Why we should keep the flag patch...

[Eclipse]

It's also not mandatory:

It is for us...

[Cobra1597]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

The same could be said about someone who, when asked to explain what point they were trying to get across says, "it's like a joke, you either get it or you don't", rather than making an attempt at communication.

I don't know how to respond to nonsense like that.

[Stonewall]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

The same could be said about someone who, when asked to explain what point they were trying to get across says, "it's like a joke, you either get it or you don't", rather than making an attempt at communication.

Thanks, wasn't sure if anyone else caught that response.  I still don't quite understand the point of the original post and how it supports our need to wear the flag patch.

As Delaney said, wearing the flag in the AF isn't required.  Most of the aircrews in my wing aren't wearing flag patches these days, but rather a "deployment" or "operational" morale patch.

[lordmonar]

Big Blue sent me halfway around the world and lots of places between here and there and never felt I needed an American flag patch.  CAP doesn't need one for CONUS duty.

Well...back in the day....we (USAF) did wear the flag patch sometimes.  When I went to Bosnia we all had to sew on the flags.  That is one of the reasons why the Army decided to add the flag to their uniform.

But with that said....CAP is not the U.S. Army Auxillary....so why are we following the Army's lead?

Let's loose the patch on BDUs and BBDUs.  We can keep it or loose it on the flight suits.

[DNall]

The flag is typically worn by US mil personnel deployed overseas into a multinational force where it is important to ID who belongs to whom. Most other countries do the same, same shoulder, etc. May be in some international treaty or something I don't know about. That's the tradition of the flag on any military uniform for all time prior to 9/11.

The Army put the flag on after 9/11 for the above reason, NOT out of any sense of increased patriotism, and broke with tradition to extend it to the rest of the force for another reason. Meanwhile the ACU came along & is worn everywhere, and in field style (not allowed to make it nice), specifically to show solidarity with the troops in combat. The philosophy of the Army is/was that the total force will be at war & the domestic soldiers will get complacent if not constantly reminded of their direct connection with the war.

The Air Force didn't & doesn't find it necessary to remind it's people of their status as combatants, or their potential to deploy to a combat zone, or their critical role in things like the logistics that support the warfighters.

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

[Eclipse]

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

I can't disagree with either of these, except for the fact that its been on the flightsuits and utilities since forever and no one seems to mind that.

If we're going to pull it for the above reason, it should be pulled on all the uniforms.

[Dragoon]

As long as we wear USAF suits, we should wear 'em as close to the USAF way as possible.

USAF doesn't put flags on BDUs.  Even when doing CONUS disaster relief work.

If we need some way to let folks know we're U.S. (which I don't think we do), I'd actually vote in favor of the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" pocket tape.  It seems a bit long, but it's a good parallel for the "U.S. Air Force" tape.

And if we DID have to keep the flag, could we please put it on the left shoulder, so it's on the same shoulder on all the uniforms?


As an aside, with the elimination of the Wing patch, the orange vest covers up all the patches for most members. All the public sees is camo and a vest.  I can understand the "hunter" issue.   We really ought to think hard about the role of the vest as a uniform item - like, for example, standardizing to a single style, and mandating the command patch over the heart on the vest or something. 

[Smokey]

I know most fighter pilots have a squadron patch on the left side of the flight suit, but I've seen a number of photos of those flying heavies (KC-135, KC-10, C-130, etc) with the flag patch on the left sleeve of the flight suit. 

BTW....I think most Air Force units were mandated to wear BDU, Flightsuits, etc as the everyday uniform (instead of blues)  to show the solidarity that we are at war.  I recall reading that somewhere a while back.

[DNall]

The flag is worn on the flt suit in the AF because of the ability to rapidly end up in another country/multi-national enviro. Domestic units many times take it off in favor of a unit or other patch as authorized (mostly), but when deploying they need to run out & find a flag patch again.

CAP members are not going overseas in flight suits either, but I'd generally lean towards keeping the flag there, just to be consistent with the AF. I think we get a lil crazy with patches & having one more open place to put one isn't necessarily a good thing.

[RiverAux]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

In this case, I'm just fine with the fact that the AF approved its wear on the AF style uniform.  Good enough for me. 

[Eclipse]

In this case, I'm just fine with the fact that the AF approved its wear on the AF style uniform.  Good enough for me. 

As it was for me "Hm...cool.  American flag...". Next thing...

[PHall]

I know most fighter pilots have a squadron patch on the left side of the flight suit, but I've seen a number of photos of those flying heavies (KC-135, KC-10, C-130, etc) with the flag patch on the left sleeve of the flight suit. 

Those heavy drivers you talk about wear their unit patch on their right shoulder and the flag on their left shoulder because that's what the AMC Supplement to AFI 36-2903 directs them to do.

The fighter guys in ACC follow different rules, as in the ACC Supplement to AFI 36-2903.
In ACC, the flag is not required, but is optional for wear on the left shoulder.

And nobody in the Air Force, in CONUS, wears the flag on their BDU's. It's not authorized in AFI 36-2903.

[O-Rex]

Why we should keep the flag patch?

Because it's already on our BDU's and we have enough "uniform reg change of the month" issues pending.

If NB or NEC don't like it, then they can make it go away when the ABU's come out, relieving members of undue financial harship, not to mention that 'patch-used-to-be-there' look.

[lordmonar]

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

I can't disagree with either of these, except for the fact that its been on the flightsuits and utilities since forever and no one seems to mind that.

If we're going to pull it for the above reason, it should be pulled on all the uniforms.

Yes...but the USAF has worn the flag on the flight suit since forever as well.....and we still don't wear the flag on our BDUs (except while deployed with MNFs) or ABUs.  So again....let's follow the lead of our parent service....you know the one that we are "Official Auxiliary" of.

[DNall]

Why we should keep the flag patch?

Because it's already on our BDU's and we have enough "uniform reg change of the month" issues pending.

If NB or NEC don't like it, then they can make it go away when the ABU's come out, relieving members of undue financial harship, not to mention that 'patch-used-to-be-there' look.

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs. in the meantime we look confused as we chase off our own direction behind the Army rather than following the AF's lead.

The AF is going to approve anything that doesn't create a legitimate safety or legal issue, and doesn't encroach too much on their officers because of safety/legal issues. That doesn't mean they'll be happy about where we choose to go (or not go).

The relationship we have with them is THE determiner of what missions & resources we'll get for both the short & long term - the core of our survival if you will. It's our responsibility, and ours alone, to take every opportunity at our disposal to build an d encourage that sense of brotherhood rather than behaving like ditsy school girls that have to be individuals & throw tantrums when they don't get their way. That's what divergences like the flag on BDUs represent to me, so yeah I thnk it's a simple decision to take it off, and cheap too.

[SStradley]

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs.

DNall, What is the basis for this statement?  Is this a fact?  If so what is your source?

If it is only your opnion then why do you think it will take 6 years to start, In Lt Col White's thread he has said that the USAF has already approved our transition to the ABUs.  The impression that I got there was that it would be sooner rather than later.   

[O-Rex]

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs.

Is that an estimate on your part, or a news scoop from a reputable source?

If it's the former, then yeah; the timing sounds about right.

[DNall]

On average, CAP transitions major items like this 2 years after the mandatory wear date for the AF, which has been repeatedly pushed back now to 2011, making a standard guess for our initial possible date in 2013. That's the dominant logic on the issue.

That said, ABUs are a little unique I think. The reason CAP wears AF uniforms is the avail/cost from surplus & mass production hold down member costs, particularly for cadets. The AF has approved CAP to go to ABUs for that reason. However, the date is highly dependent on the point at which BDUs are hard to come by & ABUs are flooded in the market/surplus stocks enough to take care of CAP's needs. However, with the advent of these ABU/ACU/MARPAT/etc combinations, it really pushes down the supply curve of any one item. That's going to tend to push back the transition date further than normal. Yet another factor is how fast the AF will push ABUs into the force once they get rolling. That'll determine the pace at which the other factors unfold.

So yeah, I'm saying 2013. You can call it plus or minus, but it's not real resonable to think it'll be significantly before that. It's a good ballpark, but who really knows.

My point was more that we shouldn't make/keep uniform policies that come/go with ABUs. While that makes some sense (which means the military will never stand for it) it's just not practical. It's much easier to approve a change where all the other moving parts of the combination are static. That's how come we kept blue tapes when we changed from ODs to BDUs.

[JCW0312]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

Amen! I'm so tired of cutting and pasting on uniforms...

[ddelaney103]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

Amen! I'm so tired of cutting and pasting on uniforms...

I'd like to get rid of it so future members didn't have to go through this.