Why we should keep the flag patch...

[Eclipse]

This last weekend I was GBD'ing for a SAREx.

I had the opportunity to be the last person at our bivouac site as I took down my camper and packed up.

A woman came jogging down a path near my vehicle and asked

"Are you Army?"

"No Ma'am - Air Force Auxiliary.  We were just doing some training here this weekend."

"Oh, well, thank you for your service.  At first I thought you were a hunter, but then I saw the
flag and knew you were OK.  Have a nice day...".

[lordmonar]

I don't understand....is this an example of why we should loose it or why we should keep it?

[IceNine]

How could there possibly be confusion

" I saw the flag and knew you were ok"

[mikeylikey]

At first I thought you were a hunter, but then I saw the
flag and knew you were OK.  Have a nice day...".

So being a hunter is not OK?  (from this ladies perspective??)  Weird.  

[SStradley]

This last weekend I was GBD'ing for a SAREx.

I had the opportunity to be the last person at our bivouac site as I took down my camper and packed up.

A woman came jogging down a path near my vehicle and asked

"Are you Army?"

"No Ma'am - Air Force Auxiliary.  We were just doing some training here this weekend."

"Oh, well, thank you for your service.  At first I thought you were a hunter, but then I saw the
flag and knew you were OK.  Have a nice day...".

Great story.  I have no problem with the American Flag on my uniform.  I wonder why the USAF does not?

[JayT]

Because theres no need for it.

[Cobra1597]

The grade insignia, the tapes, the wing patch (if you wear it), none of that is going to distinguish us from hunters 

The fact that you were asked if you were army is part of the problem. ARMY wears the reverse flag, not AIR FORCE, and last I checked we weren't the Army auxiliary.

[Major Carrales]

Not this same thread again!!!    How many time must we read this!!!

C'mon people, nothing to see here.

[Eclipse]

We will be the "Army" to uninformed members of the general public as long as we are wearing military-style uniforms.  It won't matter if they are woodland or digi-pat.

The average person does not equate the army/USAF, etc., difference, or even care.

They see the US Flag and understand that the person standing in front of them supports the same ideals and ideas they do...

The flags should stay.

[stillamarine]

Heck how many people know that the Army wears the flag and not the Air Force.......in many places other services have worn them, including myself as a Marine. Oh no does that make me an Army doggie?

I have come to a conclusion, if there is not at least 1 thread on this board with something to argue about uniform items then this board stagnates. Carry on.

[pixelwonk]

*sidebar*
Folks, please don't PM the mods to shut down threads because you simply don't like them.

Choose to ignore.  mmmkay?

[Eclipse]

*sidebar*
Folks, please don't PM the mods to shut down threads because you simply don't like them.

Choose to ignore.  mmmkay?

Nice -

The point here was a positive story about one reason the flag should stay, and I thought it better
to start a new thread then clutter the uniform committee one.

[star1151]

They see the US Flag and understand that the person standing in front of them supports the same ideals and ideas they do...

You're giving too much credit to the general public. 

[Cobra1597]

We will be the "Army" to uninformed members of the general public as long as we are wearing military-style uniforms.  It won't matter if they are woodland or digi-pat.

The average person does not equate the army/USAF, etc., difference, or even care.

They see the US Flag and understand that the person standing in front of them supports the same ideals and ideas they do...

The flags should stay.

By your own statement, they see us as "army" because of the military style uniform. What, are only those in the military that wear the reverse flag "sharing the same ideals"? I refuse to believe that the general public sees an Air Force officer they thinks they are a southern rebel, or a terrorist, or something.

[JayT]

*sidebar*
Folks, please don't PM the mods to shut down threads because you simply don't like them.

Choose to ignore.  mmmkay?

Isn't that the mods job?

Or are you guys starting to choose to listern  

[CASH172]

The general public is certainly not gonna be able to distinguish between the different branches by looking at the BDUs.  Most people will see the BDUs and see army, some will see a flight suit and see air force.  It's just how it goes these days.

[JCW0312]

Because theres no need for it.

Sure there is.. It distinguishes us from the hunters! 

[JCW0312]

We will be the "Army" to uninformed members of the general public as long as we are wearing military-style uniforms.  It won't matter if they are woodland or digi-pat.

The average person does not equate the army/USAF, etc., difference, or even care.

They see the US Flag and understand that the person standing in front of them supports the same ideals and ideas they do...

The flags should stay.

I think you're right. My wife and I were out the other day and saw a Navy officer in the tan uniform and she referred to him as "the Army guy".  My wife doesn't know the difference, nor does she seem to care. Of course, she didn't confuse him with a hunter, but then again, he wasn't in BDUs.... 

[Monty]

I refuse to believe that the general public sees an Air Force officer they thinks they are a southern rebel, or a terrorist, or something.

Well now, ain't that a peach of a "tie-together."  Can't say as I've ever seen the two in the same sentence.

I'm glad you refuse to believe that the general public might see an Air Force officer and think they see my Great Great Great Grandfather or an airplane "blower upper" or something.

[jimmydeanno]

At first I thought you were a hunter, but then I saw the
flag and knew you were OK.  Have a nice day...".

So being a hunter is not OK?  (from this ladies perspective??)  Weird.  

She must be from San Fran...

[Major Carrales]

To the untrained eye, all service men are lumped into one's understanding of the military.  Unlike decades past, where the number of veterans was a large percentage of the population and the number of "blue stars" in people windows was more significant, many families on our time have no close members serving.  That is only a crude generalization and I am aware of lots of families making the choice to serve, however, lots of families aren't.

From a Public Affairs point of view I would have to say the Army get the most recognition.  I have seen sailors in Kingsville, some of which were wearing uniforms that were clearly NAVY, be refered to and introduced by local dignataries as "soldiers."  To many the "military" is the "army."

[brasda91]

The point here was a positive story about one reason the flag should stay

Thank you.  I enjoyed it.  And I like my American flag.

[jbkrieger]

The point here was a positive story about one reason the flag should stay

Thank you.  I enjoyed it.  And I like my American flag.

Me too.   Keep the flag for this and all the other reasons!

[Stonewall]

So, it was the American Flag that she saw that told her you weren't a hunter?  Not your orange vest?  Good thing she came at you from the right side, cuz if she came at you from the left, she could have pegged you as a hunter and you would have been in big trouble.  Not to mention the fact that you were tearing down your camper, at a camp type site; nor did you have a gun, face paint or deer stand or some sort of hunting dog.  Was she training for the Special Olympics?

As far as people thinking we're some branch of the military, who cares?  You think people never mix Navy for Army, Marines for Air Force or whatever.  I've been in my AF BDUs at Subway during drill with the only military for 100 miles being the Air Guard Base and someone still asked if I were in the Army.  This with rank on my sleeve, blue on OD badges and a tape that said U.S. AIR FORCE.

Using this scenario as a basis for keeping the American Flag patch on our uniform is, if nothing else, goofy.  You can like it or dislike it; I happen to dislike wearing it.  But to validate wearing it because someone may have thought you were a hunter....goofy.

[Eclipse]

You've completely missed the point of the story...

[Stonewall]

You've completely missed the point of the story...

Enlighten me, please.  Was the point that we (CAP) got recognition?  She thanked you for service?  Or that the flag on our uniform is important as a means of identification and to keep us safe from mistaken identity.

[mikeylikey]

I come back to this thread to mention.....that lady that was jogging is NUTS!  I would never run or jog in an area that doubles as a open hunting area.  Even wearing orange pants and a jacket, I constantly read about people being shot at and getting shot during hunting season. 

Anyway, I don't care one way or another if we keep the flag.  Honestly, I would like to see all the patches come off the uniform except for the wing patch, name and branch tapes.  No special activity, no badges, no wings, NOTHING.  Make the uniform plain and simple.

[Eclipse]

Explaining this is like explaining a joke - either you get it or you don't.

[Stonewall]

Well, I guess we have a few people here that don't get your joke/story.  First two replies didn't understand either.  I think it would be beneficial if you did explain it so we can get what you're saying.

Title of this thread: "Why we should keep the flag patch".

Reasoning:  Because a woman jogging near your training area almost mistook you for a hunter until she saw the flag patch.

My response:  I don't think that's a good enough argument for keeping/having the flag on our BDUs.

[mikeylikey]

^  "Why we should keep the flag patch".......WE SHOULDN'T!

This is like one of those "finish the sentense things".  I get it now!

There is no reason to have it.  It was introduced with no reasoning behind it (at least reasoning that was reasonable).  The only thing I can think was the major cause for mandating it was VANGUARD telling TP what else CAP needed, so that they COULD MAKE MORE MONEY.

Am I the only person that can see Vanguard is/was (maybe not anymore) the major player behind our uniform changes?!?

As far as the flag goes, has anyone here deployed outside the US with CAP lately?  (other than IACE)

Lets set a goal of removing it by 2009.  That is ample time to get fair use out of it for all those members who now wear it.

[Eclipse]

The only thing I can think was the major cause for mandating it was VANGUARD telling TP what else CAP needed, so that they COULD MAKE MORE MONEY.

Am I the only person that can see Vanguard is/was (maybe not anymore) the major player behind our uniform changes?!?

Yes, you are the only one...

[AlphaSigOU]

^  "Why we should keep the flag patch".......WE SHOULDN'T!

This is like one of those "finish the sentense things".  I get it now!

There is no reason to have it.  It was introduced with no reasoning behind it (at least reasoning that was reasonable).  The only thing I can think was the major cause for mandating it was VANGUARD telling TP what else CAP needed, so that they COULD MAKE MORE MONEY.

Am I the only person that can see Vanguard is/was (maybe not anymore) the major player behind our uniform changes?!?

As far as the flag goes, has anyone here deployed outside the US with CAP lately?  (other than IACE)

Lets set a goal of removing it by 2009.  That is ample time to get fair use out of it for all those members who now wear it.

The other story I'd heard (maybe apocryphal) is that during the ops down in Mississippi there were reports of the locals whipping out their arsenals (shotguns, handcannons and rifles) at CAP members thinking that they were suspected looters.

Sure, Vanguard has the exclusive contract for CAP insignia and the former 'CAPMart' operation, but I don't think they had anything to do with it. Now that former major general who shall not be named probably came up with the idea, and ramrodded it down the membership's throats. Vanguard was only too happy to supply 'em.

[Eclipse]

The other story I'd heard (maybe apocryphal) is that during the ops down in Mississippi there were reports of the locals whipping out their arsenals (shotguns, handcannons and rifles) at CAP members thinking that they were suspected looters.

This part is true enough, though I don't know whether a flag would have helped it...

[Hawk200]

The only thing I can think was the major cause for mandating it was VANGUARD telling TP what else CAP needed, so that they COULD MAKE MORE MONEY.

Am I the only person that can see Vanguard is/was (maybe not anymore) the major player behind our uniform changes?!?

Yes, you are the only one...

No, he's not.

[Eclipse]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

[mikeylikey]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

Ummm.....if you doubt that could happen, I ponder.....are you a Vanguard employee or stock owner?  Stuff like that has happened throughout history, big business creating demand for items by getting laws changed, etc.

[RiverAux]

Considering that changing the CAP uniform has seemingly been the primary function of CAP's leaders throughout recent history I think it would be hard to show that Vanguard has any more "power" here than the CAP-run stores we had been using before. 

[ddelaney103]

Big Blue sent me halfway around the world and lots of places between here and there and never felt I needed an American flag patch.  CAP doesn't need one for CONUS duty.

[Eclipse]

Big Blue sent me halfway around the world and lots of places between here and there and never felt I needed an American flag patch.  CAP doesn't need one for CONUS duty.

Except on the flightsuit, right?  So left sleeve is cool, right sleeve unnecessary? 

Just checking.

[ddelaney103]

Big Blue sent me halfway around the world and lots of places between here and there and never felt I needed an American flag patch.  CAP doesn't need one for CONUS duty.

Except on the flightsuit, right?  So left sleeve is cool, right sleeve unnecessary? 

Just checking.

That's just for show - they never wear them to war (sanitizing, don't ya know?)

It's also not mandatory:

3.2.5.4. Left Sleeve. Normally the US flag, emblem of appropriate wing, group, or center, positioned no lower than 1 inch from shoulder seam in accordance with MAJCOM supplements to this instruction. Members may wear the Weapons School Patch, USAF Test Pilot School Patch, (graduate or instructor) upon completion of the appropriate school when authorized by MAJCOM supplement to this instruction. If wearing the US flag, it will be red, white, and blue in color portraying a straight flag, not a waving flag. The flag will be approximately 2X3 inches, with the union to the front and stripes trailing. Chapter 1, Title 4, United States Code, specifies the flag colors as red, white, and blue; therefore, subdued flag replicas are not authorized for wear on the FDU/DFDU.

[Eclipse]

It's also not mandatory:

It is for us...

[Cobra1597]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

The same could be said about someone who, when asked to explain what point they were trying to get across says, "it's like a joke, you either get it or you don't", rather than making an attempt at communication.

I don't know how to respond to nonsense like that.

[Stonewall]

If you guys really believe that Vanguard is making up uniform changes in order to increase revenue...I mean >really< believe it...well, I don't even know how to respond to nonsense like that.

The same could be said about someone who, when asked to explain what point they were trying to get across says, "it's like a joke, you either get it or you don't", rather than making an attempt at communication.

Thanks, wasn't sure if anyone else caught that response.  I still don't quite understand the point of the original post and how it supports our need to wear the flag patch.

As Delaney said, wearing the flag in the AF isn't required.  Most of the aircrews in my wing aren't wearing flag patches these days, but rather a "deployment" or "operational" morale patch.

[lordmonar]

Big Blue sent me halfway around the world and lots of places between here and there and never felt I needed an American flag patch.  CAP doesn't need one for CONUS duty.

Well...back in the day....we (USAF) did wear the flag patch sometimes.  When I went to Bosnia we all had to sew on the flags.  That is one of the reasons why the Army decided to add the flag to their uniform.

But with that said....CAP is not the U.S. Army Auxillary....so why are we following the Army's lead?

Let's loose the patch on BDUs and BBDUs.  We can keep it or loose it on the flight suits.

[DNall]

The flag is typically worn by US mil personnel deployed overseas into a multinational force where it is important to ID who belongs to whom. Most other countries do the same, same shoulder, etc. May be in some international treaty or something I don't know about. That's the tradition of the flag on any military uniform for all time prior to 9/11.

The Army put the flag on after 9/11 for the above reason, NOT out of any sense of increased patriotism, and broke with tradition to extend it to the rest of the force for another reason. Meanwhile the ACU came along & is worn everywhere, and in field style (not allowed to make it nice), specifically to show solidarity with the troops in combat. The philosophy of the Army is/was that the total force will be at war & the domestic soldiers will get complacent if not constantly reminded of their direct connection with the war.

The Air Force didn't & doesn't find it necessary to remind it's people of their status as combatants, or their potential to deploy to a combat zone, or their critical role in things like the logistics that support the warfighters.

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

[Eclipse]

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

I can't disagree with either of these, except for the fact that its been on the flightsuits and utilities since forever and no one seems to mind that.

If we're going to pull it for the above reason, it should be pulled on all the uniforms.

[Dragoon]

As long as we wear USAF suits, we should wear 'em as close to the USAF way as possible.

USAF doesn't put flags on BDUs.  Even when doing CONUS disaster relief work.

If we need some way to let folks know we're U.S. (which I don't think we do), I'd actually vote in favor of the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" pocket tape.  It seems a bit long, but it's a good parallel for the "U.S. Air Force" tape.

And if we DID have to keep the flag, could we please put it on the left shoulder, so it's on the same shoulder on all the uniforms?


As an aside, with the elimination of the Wing patch, the orange vest covers up all the patches for most members. All the public sees is camo and a vest.  I can understand the "hunter" issue.   We really ought to think hard about the role of the vest as a uniform item - like, for example, standardizing to a single style, and mandating the command patch over the heart on the vest or something. 

[Smokey]

I know most fighter pilots have a squadron patch on the left side of the flight suit, but I've seen a number of photos of those flying heavies (KC-135, KC-10, C-130, etc) with the flag patch on the left sleeve of the flight suit. 

BTW....I think most Air Force units were mandated to wear BDU, Flightsuits, etc as the everyday uniform (instead of blues)  to show the solidarity that we are at war.  I recall reading that somewhere a while back.

[DNall]

The flag is worn on the flt suit in the AF because of the ability to rapidly end up in another country/multi-national enviro. Domestic units many times take it off in favor of a unit or other patch as authorized (mostly), but when deploying they need to run out & find a flag patch again.

CAP members are not going overseas in flight suits either, but I'd generally lean towards keeping the flag there, just to be consistent with the AF. I think we get a lil crazy with patches & having one more open place to put one isn't necessarily a good thing.

[RiverAux]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

In this case, I'm just fine with the fact that the AF approved its wear on the AF style uniform.  Good enough for me. 

[Eclipse]

In this case, I'm just fine with the fact that the AF approved its wear on the AF style uniform.  Good enough for me. 

As it was for me "Hm...cool.  American flag...". Next thing...

[PHall]

I know most fighter pilots have a squadron patch on the left side of the flight suit, but I've seen a number of photos of those flying heavies (KC-135, KC-10, C-130, etc) with the flag patch on the left sleeve of the flight suit. 

Those heavy drivers you talk about wear their unit patch on their right shoulder and the flag on their left shoulder because that's what the AMC Supplement to AFI 36-2903 directs them to do.

The fighter guys in ACC follow different rules, as in the ACC Supplement to AFI 36-2903.
In ACC, the flag is not required, but is optional for wear on the left shoulder.

And nobody in the Air Force, in CONUS, wears the flag on their BDU's. It's not authorized in AFI 36-2903.

[O-Rex]

Why we should keep the flag patch?

Because it's already on our BDU's and we have enough "uniform reg change of the month" issues pending.

If NB or NEC don't like it, then they can make it go away when the ABU's come out, relieving members of undue financial harship, not to mention that 'patch-used-to-be-there' look.

[lordmonar]

CAP is in none of those categories, not without a significant stretch of the mind, and so should not be wearing the flag on our uniforms. The uniform guidance we draw from the military should be from the Air Force, not the Army, and should be taken or not based on the reason behind the item either applying to CAP's roles/missions/status or not.

The flag was put on the CAP uniform for the same reason the "US CAP" moniker was adopted, which is to make us seem like an official entity of the US govt. Obviously, that was not well thought through, as always. removing it is the least costly change we can come up with.

I can't disagree with either of these, except for the fact that its been on the flightsuits and utilities since forever and no one seems to mind that.

If we're going to pull it for the above reason, it should be pulled on all the uniforms.

Yes...but the USAF has worn the flag on the flight suit since forever as well.....and we still don't wear the flag on our BDUs (except while deployed with MNFs) or ABUs.  So again....let's follow the lead of our parent service....you know the one that we are "Official Auxiliary" of.

[DNall]

Why we should keep the flag patch?

Because it's already on our BDU's and we have enough "uniform reg change of the month" issues pending.

If NB or NEC don't like it, then they can make it go away when the ABU's come out, relieving members of undue financial harship, not to mention that 'patch-used-to-be-there' look.

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs. in the meantime we look confused as we chase off our own direction behind the Army rather than following the AF's lead.

The AF is going to approve anything that doesn't create a legitimate safety or legal issue, and doesn't encroach too much on their officers because of safety/legal issues. That doesn't mean they'll be happy about where we choose to go (or not go).

The relationship we have with them is THE determiner of what missions & resources we'll get for both the short & long term - the core of our survival if you will. It's our responsibility, and ours alone, to take every opportunity at our disposal to build an d encourage that sense of brotherhood rather than behaving like ditsy school girls that have to be individuals & throw tantrums when they don't get their way. That's what divergences like the flag on BDUs represent to me, so yeah I thnk it's a simple decision to take it off, and cheap too.

[SStradley]

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs.

DNall, What is the basis for this statement?  Is this a fact?  If so what is your source?

If it is only your opnion then why do you think it will take 6 years to start, In Lt Col White's thread he has said that the USAF has already approved our transition to the ABUs.  The impression that I got there was that it would be sooner rather than later.   

[O-Rex]

2013 is the EARLIEST we'll be able to BEGIN transition to ABUs.

Is that an estimate on your part, or a news scoop from a reputable source?

If it's the former, then yeah; the timing sounds about right.

[DNall]

On average, CAP transitions major items like this 2 years after the mandatory wear date for the AF, which has been repeatedly pushed back now to 2011, making a standard guess for our initial possible date in 2013. That's the dominant logic on the issue.

That said, ABUs are a little unique I think. The reason CAP wears AF uniforms is the avail/cost from surplus & mass production hold down member costs, particularly for cadets. The AF has approved CAP to go to ABUs for that reason. However, the date is highly dependent on the point at which BDUs are hard to come by & ABUs are flooded in the market/surplus stocks enough to take care of CAP's needs. However, with the advent of these ABU/ACU/MARPAT/etc combinations, it really pushes down the supply curve of any one item. That's going to tend to push back the transition date further than normal. Yet another factor is how fast the AF will push ABUs into the force once they get rolling. That'll determine the pace at which the other factors unfold.

So yeah, I'm saying 2013. You can call it plus or minus, but it's not real resonable to think it'll be significantly before that. It's a good ballpark, but who really knows.

My point was more that we shouldn't make/keep uniform policies that come/go with ABUs. While that makes some sense (which means the military will never stand for it) it's just not practical. It's much easier to approve a change where all the other moving parts of the combination are static. That's how come we kept blue tapes when we changed from ODs to BDUs.

[JCW0312]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

Amen! I'm so tired of cutting and pasting on uniforms...

[ddelaney103]

I have a hard time getting excited either way about this issue.  I've already sewn it on my shirts and jacket so would prefer to leave it there.

Amen! I'm so tired of cutting and pasting on uniforms...

I'd like to get rid of it so future members didn't have to go through this.

[RiverAux]

Nobody is going to think we're Army because of the flag patch.  They're going to assume we're Army because of the BDUs and the majority of the general public can't tell which service is which even when they've got a service tape on their chest. 

Besides, when we're wearing BDUs we already have to explain that we're the AF auxiliary since nothing on the BDUs even hints at a connection with the AF. 

[O-Rex]

Obviously the recent leadership upheaval has impacted uniforms (not to mention some wallets) and those currently in charge understand this. 

That being said, IMO, I don't foresee any radical changes when we transition to the ABU: blingage & doo-dads titillates many members, provides income opportunity for Vanguard/CAP, and pleases USAF by making us markedly distinctive.