Cadet Wings (aviation badge)

[BlueLakes1]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

[MIKE]

See the other thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3531.0

[JohnKachenmeister]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

[BlueLakes1]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

John, you're right, they get their wings AFTER UPT, upon completion of their course of study. My point was that the holder of an FAA rating does not automatically get to wear USAF/USN wings based on the FAA rating alone. Pilots who join CAP should also have to complete CAP pilot qualification prior to being awarded/wearing CAP pilot wings, IMHO.

[mdickinson]

As I see it, CAP members young or old who have FAA ratings still cannot wear wings if they do not meet 60-1 regs and maintain their qualifications as a "qualified CAP pilot".

(emphasis mine)

No. Once the wings are earned, the wearer continues to wear them for the rest of his/her CAP career. It is not necessary that they maintain their qualifications.

We have hundreds of CAP members wearing their wings who have not been qualified in CAP aircraft, or served as a pilot of any aircraft, in ten or twenty years.

35-6 makes no mention of a requirement to stay current. Please don't make up requirements.

[mdickinson]

I REALLY think that:
- Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.
- Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.
- Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

John, we've been back and forth on this several times now.

- You say "I feel glider and balloon pilots need nothing more than a glider or balloon rating to wear the CAP glider or balloon wings."

- Redfire11 or I respond "no, that used to be the case, but the current CAPR 35-6 clearly says that nowadays, you have to have become a CAP pilot (in airplanes, glider, or balloons) in order to earn the wings - which means you have to pass a CAP checkride." We then quote you the regulation that shows this requirement.

- You respond "I REALLY think that glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating."

I'm starting to feel like we are talking to a wall here. Listen: 35-6 has changed. An FAA rating is no longer enough. The person has to become a qualified pilot to earn their wings now. Please don't confuse newer members by saying otherwise.

And yes, CAP has balloons. Not just a few, either. At least five or ten wings have CAP owned hot-air balloons. Some wings (Illinois, for one) offer a balloon solo flight academy every summer.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

John, you're right, they get their wings AFTER UPT, upon completion of their course of study. My point was that the holder of an FAA rating does not automatically get to wear USAF/USN wings based on the FAA rating alone. Pilots who join CAP should also have to complete CAP pilot qualification prior to being awarded/wearing CAP pilot wings, IMHO.

Matt:

What do you do with a cadet, or officer, who qualifies as a glider pilot but belongs to a wing with no glider?  And no glider check pilot?  Your plan would allow someone assigned to a wing with a very active glider program to take a ride with a CAP check pilot and be awarded wings, but the equally-qualified pilot in the wing with no glider is just screwed.

This does not apply to powered flight ratings, only gliders and balloons, and those wings are awarded merely as a courtesy.  IF a member wants to actually fly a glider as a cadet O-flight pilot, he has to do a lot more than a form 5G.  I think the threshold is 100 flights to be qualified to fly cadets.

And there is no "5B."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I REALLY think that:
- Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.
- Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.
- Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

John, we've been back and forth on this several times now.

- You say "I feel glider and balloon pilots need nothing more than a glider or balloon rating to wear the CAP glider or balloon wings."

- Redfire11 or I respond "no, that used to be the case, but the current CAPR 35-6 clearly says that nowadays, you have to have become a CAP pilot (in airplanes, glider, or balloons) in order to earn the wings - which means you have to pass a CAP checkride." We then quote you the regulation that shows this requirement.

- You respond "I REALLY think that glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating."

I'm starting to feel like we are talking to a wall here. Listen: 35-6 has changed. An FAA rating is no longer enough. The person has to become a qualified pilot to earn their wings now. Please don't confuse newer members by saying otherwise.

And yes, CAP has balloons. Not just a few, either. At least five or ten wings have CAP owned hot-air balloons. Some wings (Illinois, for one) offer a balloon solo flight academy every summer.

OK.  I give up trying to make sense out of it.  Later on in 60-1 it also says that "All CAP form 5 flight checks will include a minimum of 3 (including soft and short field) takeoffs and landings."

Soft field is no problem, but I've never seen a short-field takeoff procedure in a glider.

And... 3 takeoffs and landings?  With an aero tow each time?

My last form 5G was accomplished in one flight.

That was the point I was trying to make.  IF the requirement for a form 5 checkride was to be extended to glider pilots, the regulation would read "Form 5 or form 5G..."

To me, it is clear that the intent of the regulation is to exempt glider pilots from the requirement for a CAP checkride, unless they fly gliders in a "CAP flight activity."  Then they have to meet additional requirements.  This regulation is not clearly written.

I did not know that CAP had balloons.  How does a balloon pilot qualify for his flying light bulb?  There isn't a form "5B." 

[BlueLakes1]

Matt:

What do you do with a cadet, or officer, who qualifies as a glider pilot but belongs to a wing with no glider?  And no glider check pilot?  Your plan would allow someone assigned to a wing with a very active glider program to take a ride with a CAP check pilot and be awarded wings, but the equally-qualified pilot in the wing with no glider is just screwed.

This does not apply to powered flight ratings, only gliders and balloons, and those wings are awarded merely as a courtesy.  IF a member wants to actually fly a glider as a cadet O-flight pilot, he has to do a lot more than a form 5G.  I think the threshold is 100 flights to be qualified to fly cadets.

And there is no "5B."

John,

There are a couple ways that pilot could "qualify as a glider pilot" IAW CAP regulations. Now, it will be much easier if the pilot happens to already be designated as a CAP pilot (60-1 para 3-2c definition) in powered aircraft. Assuming that the pilot is, the pilot would not be pursuing initial designation as a CAP pilot, and could have an FAA inspector, DPE, etc. sign off the CAPF 5G, assuming they covered the oral part with a CAP glider check pilot. If that's not an option, I say that the pilot would either need to travel somewhere to get the checkride done, or unfortunately, you're right, the pilot is probably hosed.

For the record, INWG is blessed to have a group of very dedicated individuals who are working hard to grow our glider program. Our Sailplane Operations Officer did just that - traveled to Illinois to get CAP glider training. I'd also point out that while its a bummer for the glider pilot, its no worse than a powered pilot who has the misfortune of living too far from a CAP powered airplane. They can drive for the checkride, but they'll rarely, if ever, get to use the qualification.

Those wings aren't awarded as a courtesy; those wings show that the pilot has met the requisite requirements of CAPR 60-1 and 35-6 to wear them. I'm honestly not a uniform nazi by any stretch, but I'll admit that I do get peeved when I see people wearing wings who haven't earned them.

The "5B" reference was to the Delaware Wing Form 5B. Successful completion is mandated by DEWG 60-1 Supplement 1 for qualification as a balloon pilot in DEWG. I'm not sure what the other wings with balloons use, that was a generic reference.

[BlueLakes1]

OK.  I give up trying to make sense out of it.  Later on in 60-1 it also says that "All CAP form 5 flight checks will include a minimum of 3 (including soft and short field) takeoffs and landings."

Soft field is no problem, but I've never seen a short-field takeoff procedure in a glider.

And... 3 takeoffs and landings?  With an aero tow each time?

My last form 5G was accomplished in one flight.

That was the point I was trying to make.  IF the requirement for a form 5 checkride was to be extended to glider pilots, the regulation would read "Form 5 or form 5G..."

To me, it is clear that the intent of the regulation is to exempt glider pilots from the requirement for a CAP checkride, unless they fly gliders in a "CAP flight activity."  Then they have to meet additional requirements.  This regulation is not clearly written.

5-13. CAPF 5G Evaluations. Paragraph 3-5h does not apply to CAPF 5G evaluations. Except as noted below, one landing is required to complete the checkride (more landings may be required at the discretion of the check pilot). If the pilot taking the evaluation has not accomplished and logged a simulated rope break within the preceding 12 calendar months and when weather conditions will safely permit, the CAPF 5G will include a simulated rope break on takeoff (above 200 feet AGL). If a simulated rope break is accomplished, at least one other landing is required as part of the CAPF 5G evaluation.

I think that covers most of your questions regarding multiple landings.

If the intent was to limit the CAPF 5 requirement to airplanes, the regulation would say so...it wouldn't say "aircraft" and make two separate exemptions (one for PIC age 16 and one removing the requirement for a class III medical) for glider pilots.

I did not know that CAP had balloons.  How does a balloon pilot qualify for his flying light bulb?  There isn't a form "5B." 

c.  Wings operating hot air balloons in CAP flight activities shall publish flight management and operating procedures in a supplement to this regulation IAW paragraph 1-3b above.

So, the wings publish their own rules for operating balloons, and NHQ must bless them as valid. Qualifying as a CAP balloon pilot IAW an authorized wing supplement satisfies the "qualified CAP pilot IAW CAPR 60-1" requirement in CAPR 35-6, and thereby authorizes the pilot to wear the "flying lightbulb".

Delaware Wing uses the Wing Form 5B for the initial and annual balloon checkride for their pilots.

[BlueLakes1]

Lots of updated Knowledgebase questions came out today. Here goes.

Requirements to wear CAP pilot wings

  Question
  Are we authorized to wear CAP pilot wings with our uniform when not yet checked out in a CAP aircraft? Such as, a member who is a current private pilot but does not yet meet the CAP requirements?

  Answer
  No. To be qualified as a CAP pilot and wear CAP pilot wings, a member must meet the requirements, including CAPF 5 flight checks, outlined in See CAP REGULATION 60-1 CAP FLIGHT MANAGEMENT

3-2. Pilot Qualifications.

c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
1) Be an active CAP member at least 17 years of age (16 years of age for CAP glider pilots).
2) Possess a valid FAA private, commercial or airline transport pilot certificate.
3) Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).
4) Possess a current flight review IAW FAR 61.56.
5) Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.
6) Complete an annual CAPF 5 written examination and annual aircraft questionnaires (attachments 3 and 4) for each aircraft authorized to fly.

3-5. CAPF 5 Flight Checks. All CAP pilots, except CAP cadet student pilots or CAP glider student pilots under the supervision of a CAP instructor, must satisfactorily complete required CAPF 5 flight checks. The minimum level of proficiency acceptable is that contained in the current FAA Pilot Practical Test Standards for the certificate being exercised. For CAP instructor/check pilots, the minimum level of proficiency acceptable is that contained in the current FAA Flight Instructor and Co mmercial Pilot Practical Test Standards. CAPF 5 flight checks shall be administered and accomplished in accordance with the guidelines contained in attachment 5. Whenever possible, the check pilot will not be the PIC. All CAP flight checks, except mission flight checks (attachment 6), are valid for 12 months, through the end of the month in which it was taken. Applicants for a CAP pilot flight check must provide proof of FAA passenger carrying proficiency [as stated in FAR 61.57(a)(1)] in category and class prior to beginning a CAP flight check.
a. An initial CAPF 5 flight check administered by a CAP check pilot must be satisfactorily completed prior to designation of a CAP member as a CAP pilot.
b. All CAP pilots must complete an initial CAPF 5 flight check in each aircraft type flown.

Also see Answer 788: Qualifications for CAP senior pilot rating Click Here

         

[SJFedor]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

[SarDragon]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

Once you have initially fully qualified for an aeronautical rating or GT rating, and the paperwork has been done authorizing wear of the badge, it's your forever, unless revoked for cause.

[Eclipse]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

Once you have initially fully qualified for an aeronautical rating or GT rating, and the paperwork has been done authorizing wear of the badge, it's your forever, unless revoked for cause.

Yep, complete 1 form 5 your whole CAP career, or finish the GT and then quit ES, they are still yours.