Cadet Wings (aviation badge)

[skippytim]

What are the requirments for a Cadet to earn their "Wings"? (aviation badge)

Thank you.

[Eclipse]

Pre-solo or solo for those wings.

Meet the criteria (including age - 18), and complete a Form 5, etc., for the transport wings.

[jeders]

What are the requirments for a Cadet to earn their "Wings"? (aviation badge)

Thank you.

Same as seniors as long as they're 18.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Glider wings can be awarded based on FAA issue of a license.  No form 5G (unless you plan to fly a CAP glider) and you don't have to be 18.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also:  I just checked 60-1 and you only have to be 17 to be a CAP pilot (16 for glider).

The FAA says you have to be 17 to get a pilot's license, (16 for glider) so IF you get a single-engine license, and you pass a form 5 checkride, pin your wings on!

[Eclipse]

((*sigh*)) once again, learning something new everyday...

3-2. Pilot Qualifications.
a. CAP Cadet Pre-Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP cadet pre-solo pilot. This qualification may only be earned at an organized wing or higher-level flight encampment/academy.
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Have received the required instruction from a CAP certificated flight instructor/-glider (CFI/CFIG), at a wing level or higher flight encampment/academy and have a written record documenting instruction of all items of FAR 61.87, in the appropriate aircraft.
(3) Complete a pre-solo qualification flight as described in paragraph 1-6.
b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.
c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 17 years of age (16 years of age for CAP glider pilots).
(2) Possess a valid FAA private, commercial, or airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).
(4) Possess a current flight review IAW FAR 61.56.
(5) Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.
CAPR 60-1 7 DECEMBER 2006 19
(6) Complete an annual CAPF 5 written examination and annual aircraft questionnaires (attachments 3 and 4) for each aircraft authorized to fly.

[skippytim]

Okay. Well I fly 2 hours weekly with my instructor who's not CAP; but I have about 30 hours under my belt right now, I'm 16, and an active CAP member. So I suppose if I were to talk to my squadron commander, I could pretty easily get my wings.

[MIKE]

I think the key words here are "in CAP aircraft", and "and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot."  you can check the definitions for exactly what those terms mean.

[Eclipse]

Okay. Well I fly 2 hours weekly with my instructor who's not CAP; but I have about 30 hours under my belt right now, I'm 16, and an active CAP member. So I suppose if I were to talk to my squadron commander, I could pretty easily get my wings.

Are you a licensed pilot?

[MIKE]

At 16, he wouldn't qualify for CAP pilot with the exception of glider.

[JohnKachenmeister]

At 16, he wouldn't qualify for CAP pilot with the exception of glider.

Also, he only has 30 hours.

IF he were able to find a CAP check pilot who was also an FAA designated examiner (good luck) he could get his FAA checkride and his form 5 checkride together.  They are basically the same thing.

Otherwise, he has to take 2 checkrides... one for the license and one for the wings.

If he were to get 50 hours of cross country in, he could qualify as a Mission Transport Pilot, but THAT qualification does require age 18 or older. 

[mdickinson]

IF he were able to find a CAP check pilot who was also an FAA designated examiner (good luck) he could get his FAA checkride and his form 5 checkride together.  They are basically the same thing.

Otherwise, he has to take 2 checkrides... one for the license and one for the wings.

Not so.  You shoulda read CAPR 60-1 before replying.

A flight check administered by a FAA inspector, designated check airman, designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner is acceptable provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP-specific items are verbally covered by an authorized CAP check pilot who also signs the CAPF 5.

Example: a cadet from New York City did his primary flight training in CAP aircraft in August; I was his flight instructor. When he was ready for his private pilot checkride, I made sure he knew all the CAP-specific info that he needed to be ready for a form 5 as well.

When he took his private checkride with the FAA Designated Pilot Examiner, he handed the DPE the Form 5. The DPE filled in "S"s for all the tasks he had satisfactorily performed, then signed the form. I met with the newly-minted pilot the next day, quizzed him on all the CAP-specific areas on the form, then signed the form as a CAP check pilot.  Then he attached a copy of the completed CAPF 5 to a CAPF 2a on which he applied for CAP Pilot Wings.

So he completed the Private Pilot checkride, his first Form 5 checkride, and his CAP Pilot Wings, in one process. This is the way we always do it around here when cadets earn their private certificate.

[Eclipse]

When he took his private checkride with the FAA Designated Pilot Examiner, he handed the DPE the Form 5. The DPE filled in "S"s for all the tasks he had satisfactorily performed, then signed the form. I met with the newly-minted pilot the next day, quizzed him on all the CAP-specific areas on the form, then signed the form as a CAP check pilot.  Then he attached a copy of the completed CAPF 5 to a CAPF 2a on which he applied for CAP Pilot Wings.

So he completed the Private Pilot checkride, his first Form 5 checkride, and his CAP Pilot Wings, in one process. This is the way we always do it around here when cadets earn their private certificate.

but you didn't actually give him a check ride yourself?

[SJFedor]

I think *hope* he's talking about his solo wings. Below is the requirement for the CAP Solo Pilot DESIGNATION, not the awarding of the aeronautical badge. So your true reference is CAPR 35-6, but since it says "Qualified IAW 60-1", you're back here.

b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.

So if you meet all 4 requirements for powered solo wings issuance, yes, pin them on. Nothing says that the 4 required items needs to be completed IN a CAP aircraft, just that you need those things to be elligible as a CAP solo pilot IN a CAP aircraft.

Once you get your PP certificate, you'll need to do an F5 before you can be designated as a "CAP Pilot" and be elligible to wear the full wings.

He'll need to be 18 before he can load anyone into a CAP aircraft as a passenger (yes, even seniors) except for a CAP CFI/CFII or FAA DPE.

IF he were able to find a CAP check pilot who was also an FAA designated examiner (good luck) he could get his FAA checkride and his form 5 checkride together.  They are basically the same thing.

Actually, no. There's an easier way.

A flight check administered by a FAA inspector, designated check airman, designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner is acceptable provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by an authorized CAP check pilot who also signs the CAPF 5.

So the DPE signs off everything completed on the F5 as far as maneuvers go, and a CAP check pilot needs to review it, along with the CAP specific stuff (which should be verbal stuff only since all flight maneuvers would be completed for issuance of a certificate), and voila! The DPE DOES NOT need to be a CAP member.

If he were to get 50 hours of cross country in, he could qualify as a Mission Transport Pilot, but THAT qualification does require age 18 or older. 

I promise I'm not picking on you Kach  , but for designation as a TMP, you need 100 hours pilot in command (not total time), plus 50 hours XC time, plus a current CAPF 5, plus have passenger carrying ability IAW 60-1 (18+ years old).

[mdickinson]

Pre-solo or solo for those wings.

Meet the criteria (including age - 18), and complete a Form 5, etc., for the transport wings.

No.

1. There is no such thing as "transport wings."

2. The requirements to wear pilot wings are given in CAPR 35-6.

CAP has seven different wings that can be worn:
- Cadet Pre-solo
- Solo
- CAP Pilot
- Senior Pilot
- Command Pilot
- Glider Pilot
- Balloon Pilot

One important step sometimes overlooked is that, once qualified, the member (remember, solo wings can be worn by seniors and cadets) must complete a CAPF 2a enter their solo date or checkride date into e-services. Once the qualification has been verified in e-services, then the wings may be worn._{[edited by mdickinson to correct]}

3. The steps to qualify for "pre-solo wings" and "solo wings" are given in CAPR 60-1. It also contains requirements for glider wings, balloon wings, and requirements to become a CAP Pilot.

4. For the glider and balloon wings, all that is necessary is that the person hold an FAA pilot certificate with a glider or balloon rating on it. Then fill out a form 2a enter the checkride date into e-services and get your unit commander to verify the data._{[edited by mdickinson to correct]}

5. There is no requirement that someone be 18 in order to wear CAP pilot wings.

6. the minimum age to hold pilot certificates are as follows:
Solo glider: 14
Solo balloon: 14
Solo airplane: 16
Private glider: 16
Private balloon: 16
Private airplane: 17
Commercial: 18
Flight Instructor: 18
ATP: 21 23 _{(thanks SJFedor)}

[SJFedor]

ATP is 23, not 21.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think *hope* he's talking about his solo wings. Below is the requirement for the CAP Solo Pilot DESIGNATION, not the awarding of the aeronautical badge. So your true reference is CAPR 35-6, but since it says "Qualified IAW 60-1", you're back here.

b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.

So if you meet all 4 requirements for powered solo wings issuance, yes, pin them on. Nothing says that the 4 required items needs to be completed IN a CAP aircraft, just that you need those things to be elligible as a CAP solo pilot IN a CAP aircraft.

Once you get your PP certificate, you'll need to do an F5 before you can be designated as a "CAP Pilot" and be elligible to wear the full wings.

He'll need to be 18 before he can load anyone into a CAP aircraft as a passenger (yes, even seniors) except for a CAP CFI/CFII or FAA DPE.

IF he were able to find a CAP check pilot who was also an FAA designated examiner (good luck) he could get his FAA checkride and his form 5 checkride together.  They are basically the same thing.

Actually, no. There's an easier way.

A flight check administered by a FAA inspector, designated check airman, designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner is acceptable provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by an authorized CAP check pilot who also signs the CAPF 5.

So the DPE signs off everything completed on the F5 as far as maneuvers go, and a CAP check pilot needs to review it, along with the CAP specific stuff (which should be verbal stuff only since all flight maneuvers would be completed for issuance of a certificate), and voila! The DPE DOES NOT need to be a CAP member.

If he were to get 50 hours of cross country in, he could qualify as a Mission Transport Pilot, but THAT qualification does require age 18 or older. 

I promise I'm not picking on you Kach  , but for designation as a TMP, you need 100 hours pilot in command (not total time), plus 50 hours XC time, plus a current CAPF 5, plus have passenger carrying ability IAW 60-1 (18+ years old).
[/quot    



I forgot about the rule allowing a DPE to sign the Form 5.

And... I was talking in shorthand about TMP.  I was just pointing out that MISSION pilots need to be 18, although the pilot badge can be awarded at age 17.  

[SJFedor]

I know, it's just that 100hrs PIC requirement that sometimes bites people. I've had older cadets w/ their privates and F5's request to be a TMP because they had 100hrs. They had over 100hrs total time, but only 20-25 hours PIC, and that makes all the difference 

We actually had a discussion about things like this at NCPSC this past weekend, especially the "telephone" effect, where info gets passed from one person to another, and when it gets down there, it's totally different.

Did you know that, according to an FAA inspector, we need to hold copies of any FAA exemption we're exercising under? (Cadet o-rides/mission flying w/ private pilots, etc)

The exemptions we have (and had) are interesting reading.

They can be found at aes.faa.gov (no www), just search Civil Air Patrol as the petitioner.

[Eclipse]

Ditto on the shorthand, and I guess I should have asked "which wings" first.

Correct, of course on their not being "transport wings" - TMP is an ES designation,
"pilot" is an aviation designation.

[mdickinson]

So if you meet all 4 requirements for powered solo wings issuance, yes, pin them on. Nothing says that the 4 required items needs to be completed IN a CAP aircraft, just that you need those things to be eligible as a CAP solo pilot IN a CAP aircraft.

1. No, don't just "pin them on" - first you have to fill out a CAPF 2a _{(whoops - not any more)} go into e-services ("My Ops Qualifications/National Reports" section) and enter your solo date. Once that has been "verified" by your commander, THEN you can pin on the badge. _{[edited by mdickinson to correct]}

2. There is no such thing as "powered solo wings." There are just "solo wings." They can be earned in ANY category of aircraft. They are most commonly earned in airplane, glider, or balloon. The wings badge itself is the same badge regardless of what category you soloed in.

[BlueLakes1]

IF he were able to find a CAP check pilot who was also an FAA designated examiner (good luck) he could get his FAA checkride and his form 5 checkride together.  They are basically the same thing.

Otherwise, he has to take 2 checkrides... one for the license and one for the wings.

Not so.  You shoulda read CAPR 60-1 before replying.

A flight check administered by a FAA inspector, designated check airman, designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner is acceptable provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP-specific items are verbally covered by an authorized CAP check pilot who also signs the CAPF 5.

Example: a cadet from New York City did his primary flight training in CAP aircraft in August; I was his flight instructor. When he was ready for his private pilot checkride, I made sure he knew all the CAP-specific info that he needed to be ready for a form 5 as well.

When he took his private checkride with the FAA Designated Pilot Examiner, he handed the DPE the Form 5. The DPE filled in "S"s for all the tasks he had satisfactorily performed, then signed the form. I met with the newly-minted pilot the next day, quizzed him on all the CAP-specific areas on the form, then signed the form as a CAP check pilot.  Then he attached a copy of the completed CAPF 5 to a CAPF 2a on which he applied for CAP Pilot Wings.

So he completed the Private Pilot checkride, his first Form 5 checkride, and his CAP Pilot Wings, in one process. This is the way we always do it around here when cadets earn their private certificate.

Not so fast, sir...

An initial CAPF 5 flight check administered by a CAP check pilot must be satisfactorily completed prior to designation of a CAP member as a CAP pilot.

(boldface mine)

So, a brand new private pilot cannot submit a CAPF 5 completed on their FAA checkride and signed by their DPE or FAA guy to get his/her CAP pilot rating, they must complete a CAPF 5 with a CAP check pilot after certification as a private pilot. Otherwise, he doesn't meet the requirements of 60-1, unless his DPE/FAA Inspector is also a CAP check pilot.

[CapnSuper]

I'm completely lost – can I get some clarification please?

I was previously TOLD (by our former AEO) that to wear CAP wings you must do a Form 5 no matter what, cadet, senior officer member, whatever.  But I was always curious why some cadets wore wings, and it did strike me odd that they were always Glider wings.  As a glider pilot myself, it just stuck with me.

As I am reading in this thread, it appears that I've been told incorrectly:  (from above):
"4. For the glider and balloon wings, all that is necessary is that the person hold an FAA pilot certificate with a glider or balloon rating on it. Then fill out a form 2a."

So in re-reading the regs with this comment in mind, I find these statements:

CAP REGULATION 35-6 (E) 17 AUGUST 2002:
AERONAUTICAL RATINGS, EMERGENCY SERVICES PATCH AND BADGES, AND GROUND TEAM BADGES
1. Aeronautical Ratings and Requirements. Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.


CAPR 60-1 (E) 4 NOVEMBER 2001:
3-3. Pilot Aircraft Qualification Requirements. The following qualification requirements must be met to operate the indicated aircraft as PIC on CAP flight activities. Certificate and flight experience requirements do not apply to student pilots under the supervision of a CAP instructor.
c. Gliders. For gliders:
1) Possess a valid FAA private or commercial certificate with a glider rating.
2) Be authorized for the launch method (aero tow or ground tow) used.
3) Have a minimum of 5 total PIC hours or 10 flights as PIC in gliders.


Indeed, for glider pilots there is no specific mention of a need for Form 5 to wear Glider wings.

First: am I finally getting it right?  Or am I really missing some glaring requirement noted elsewhere? If so, this appears to be the same for cadets as for senior members, true?

Secondly: If this is the case, I have some forms to fill out for some squadron members.  Is CAPF 2a the only CAP form for glider wing authorization?  The form I have, which is titled CAP FORM 2A OCT 03, seems to be lacking anything about Wings.  If it is the right form, how is it filled out properly?  I don't see anything specific to 60-1, 35-6, or wings per se with the exception of a Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon under 39-3 section.

Thanks for your help,
Capn Super

[mdickinson]

Not so fast, sir...

An initial CAPF 5 flight check administered by a CAP check pilot must be satisfactorily completed prior to designation of a CAP member as a CAP pilot.

(boldface mine)

So, a brand new private pilot cannot submit a CAPF 5 completed on their FAA checkride and signed by their DPE or FAA guy to get his/her CAP pilot rating, they must complete a CAPF 5 with a CAP check pilot after certification as a private pilot.

Very sharp eyes! I had not noticed the possible contradiction. However, my guess is that it was never the intent of those writing 60-1 to prevent the DPE method from being used for a pilot's initial form 5 checkride.

I believe however that what I said is correct anyway. The form 5 is being "administered" by a CAP check pilot; that is, he is signing the form 5; but as stated in 3-5.c. it is OK for the air part of the examination to be given by an FAA DPE.

The apparent contradiction between these paragraphs is something that should be addressed the next time CAPR 60-1 is revised.

[mdickinson]

I was previously TOLD (by our former AEO) that to wear CAP wings you must do a Form 5 no matter what, cadet, senior officer member, whatever. 

No. As I wrote earlier today, the only wings that require a CAPF 5 ride are the CAP Pilot Wings. The other six kinds of CAP wings are all awarded based on other accomplishments.

I was always curious why some cadets wore wings, and it did strike me odd that they were always Glider wings.

Cadets aren't limited to glider wings - they can wear ANY of the CAP wings that they earn. It is possible for cadets to earn presolo, solo, glider, balloon, CAP Pilot, ...even Senior Pilot wings! (The only one they can't possibly earn is Command Pilot wings, as it requires the person to have been a licensed pilot for 5 years - by which time they would no longer be a cadet.)

in re-reading the regs with this comment in mind, I find [...] Indeed, for glider pilots there is no specific mention of a need for Form 5 to wear Glider wings. am I finally getting it right? 

You are correct. The requirement to wear glider wings is the requirement you cited.

Is CAPF 2a the only CAP form for glider wing authorization?  The form I have, which is titled CAP FORM 2A OCT 03, seems to be lacking anything about Wings. 

Whoooops my mistake. Prior to 2003, the CAPF 2a had a section called "III. AWARD OF AERONAUTICAL RATING/MISSION QUALIFICATIONS". But in the 2003 version of CAPF 2a, that section was removed.

I believe nowadays, instead of filling out a 2a, the pilot goes into e-services, "My Ops Qualifications/National Reports" section, and fills in the date of his private pilot checkride. Once his commander verifies the information, that is what allows him to wear the wings.

[BlueLakes1]

Not so fast, sir...

An initial CAPF 5 flight check administered by a CAP check pilot must be satisfactorily completed prior to designation of a CAP member as a CAP pilot.

(boldface mine)

So, a brand new private pilot cannot submit a CAPF 5 completed on their FAA checkride and signed by their DPE or FAA guy to get his/her CAP pilot rating, they must complete a CAPF 5 with a CAP check pilot after certification as a private pilot.

Very sharp eyes! I had not noticed the possible contradiction. However, my guess is that it was never the intent of those writing 60-1 to prevent the DPE method from being used for a pilot's initial form 5 checkride.

I believe however that what I said is correct anyway. The form 5 is being "administered" by a CAP check pilot; that is, he is signing the form 5; but as stated in 3-5.c. it is OK for the air part of the examination to be given by an FAA DPE.

The apparent contradiction between these paragraphs is something that should be addressed the next time CAPR 60-1 is revised.

You're right, it is something that should be clarified. In fact, the draft of the "new and improved" 60-1 simply blankets that FAA Inspectors and DPEs are approved, and removes the "weird" language pertaining to who can do what, and when.

The way I interpret the current 60-1, para 3-5 (a) pertains only to initial CAPF 5 checks, and 3-5 (c) only to annual rides. Since 3-5 (a) says that the initial must be done by a CAP check pilot, and no mention is made of anyone else being approved, we require that CAP members who earn their PPL go ahead and take a From 5 ride with a CAP check pilot. For a recurrent annual, all is fair game; heck, I turned in both my Instrument and Commercial rides as annuals.

YMMV, of course

[SarDragon]

I suggest that you folks quoting the regs consult the latest Index 0-2, and then the current version of the regs you are trying to use.

There is a quote from "CAPR 60-1 (E) 4 NOVEMBER 2001" - outdated. The new version is dated "7 DECEMBER 2006, INCLUDES CHANGE 1, 23 JANUARY 2007 AND CHANGE 2, 23 JULY 2007"

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm completely lost – can I get some clarification please?

I was previously TOLD (by our former AEO) that to wear CAP wings you must do a Form 5 no matter what, cadet, senior officer member, whatever.  But I was always curious why some cadets wore wings, and it did strike me odd that they were always Glider wings.  As a glider pilot myself, it just stuck with me.

As I am reading in this thread, it appears that I've been told incorrectly:  (from above):
"4. For the glider and balloon wings, all that is necessary is that the person hold an FAA pilot certificate with a glider or balloon rating on it. Then fill out a form 2a."

So in re-reading the regs with this comment in mind, I find these statements:

CAP REGULATION 35-6 (E) 17 AUGUST 2002:
AERONAUTICAL RATINGS, EMERGENCY SERVICES PATCH AND BADGES, AND GROUND TEAM BADGES
1. Aeronautical Ratings and Requirements. Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.


CAPR 60-1 (E) 4 NOVEMBER 2001:
3-3. Pilot Aircraft Qualification Requirements. The following qualification requirements must be met to operate the indicated aircraft as PIC on CAP flight activities. Certificate and flight experience requirements do not apply to student pilots under the supervision of a CAP instructor.
c. Gliders. For gliders:
1) Possess a valid FAA private or commercial certificate with a glider rating.
2) Be authorized for the launch method (aero tow or ground tow) used.
3) Have a minimum of 5 total PIC hours or 10 flights as PIC in gliders.


Indeed, for glider pilots there is no specific mention of a need for Form 5 to wear Glider wings.

First: am I finally getting it right?  Or am I really missing some glaring requirement noted elsewhere? If so, this appears to be the same for cadets as for senior members, true?

Secondly: If this is the case, I have some forms to fill out for some squadron members.  Is CAPF 2a the only CAP form for glider wing authorization?  The form I have, which is titled CAP FORM 2A OCT 03, seems to be lacking anything about Wings.  If it is the right form, how is it filled out properly?  I don't see anything specific to 60-1, 35-6, or wings per se with the exception of a Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon under 39-3 section.

Thanks for your help,
Capn Super

You do NOT need a form 5G to wear glider wings.  You DO need a form 5G to fly one of the CAP gliders.

[BlueLakes1]

I suggest that you folks quoting the regs consult the latest Index 0-2, and then the current version of the regs you are trying to use.

There is a quote from "CAPR 60-1 (E) 4 NOVEMBER 2001" - outdated. The new version is dated "7 DECEMBER 2006, INCLUDES CHANGE 1, 23 JANUARY 2007 AND CHANGE 2, 23 JULY 2007"

I did use CAPR 60-1, 7 Dec 06 with Change 1 and 2 for my reference; the wording in both 3-5 (a) and 3-5 (c) is the same between versions.

[BlueLakes1]

I'm completely lost – can I get some clarification please?

I was previously TOLD (by our former AEO) that to wear CAP wings you must do a Form 5 no matter what, cadet, senior officer member, whatever.  But I was always curious why some cadets wore wings, and it did strike me odd that they were always Glider wings.  As a glider pilot myself, it just stuck with me.

As I am reading in this thread, it appears that I've been told incorrectly:  (from above):
"4. For the glider and balloon wings, all that is necessary is that the person hold an FAA pilot certificate with a glider or balloon rating on it. Then fill out a form 2a."

So in re-reading the regs with this comment in mind, I find these statements:

CAP REGULATION 35-6 (E) 17 AUGUST 2002:
AERONAUTICAL RATINGS, EMERGENCY SERVICES PATCH AND BADGES, AND GROUND TEAM BADGES
1. Aeronautical Ratings and Requirements. Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.


CAPR 60-1 (E) 4 NOVEMBER 2001:
3-3. Pilot Aircraft Qualification Requirements. The following qualification requirements must be met to operate the indicated aircraft as PIC on CAP flight activities. Certificate and flight experience requirements do not apply to student pilots under the supervision of a CAP instructor.
c. Gliders. For gliders:
1) Possess a valid FAA private or commercial certificate with a glider rating.
2) Be authorized for the launch method (aero tow or ground tow) used.
3) Have a minimum of 5 total PIC hours or 10 flights as PIC in gliders.


Indeed, for glider pilots there is no specific mention of a need for Form 5 to wear Glider wings.

First: am I finally getting it right?  Or am I really missing some glaring requirement noted elsewhere? If so, this appears to be the same for cadets as for senior members, true?

Secondly: If this is the case, I have some forms to fill out for some squadron members.  Is CAPF 2a the only CAP form for glider wing authorization?  The form I have, which is titled CAP FORM 2A OCT 03, seems to be lacking anything about Wings.  If it is the right form, how is it filled out properly?  I don't see anything specific to 60-1, 35-6, or wings per se with the exception of a Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon under 39-3 section.

Thanks for your help,
Capn Super

You do NOT need a form 5G to wear glider wings.  You DO need a form 5G to fly one of the CAP gliders.

OK, let's see if I can sort thru this. For simplicity, the language of 60-1, para 3-3 c is unchanged between the two previously mentioned versions of the regulation.

CAPR 60-1, para 3-3 outlines what prerequisites you must have in order to qualify to act as PIC in a CAP aircraft. Essentially, you must complete these items before you're even eligible to take a CAPF 5 or 5G. Para 3-3 a, for example, has been expanded considerably recently, with the new prerequisites for qualification in high performance, G1000 equipped, and GA-8 aircraft added in. Incidentally, the introduction line for para 3-3 waives student pilots who are under the supervision of a CAP IP from the certificate and flight experience requirements.

So, if you want to act as PIC (be qualified) in a CAP glider, one must meet the requirements listed in para 3-3 c prior to taking the CAPF 5G, but one must also take the CAPF 5G to become a CAP qualified glider pilot. 60-1, para 3-2 c (5) states that one must complete a CAPF 5 "in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months" to be "qualified as a CAP pilot".

Now, since CAPR 35-6 1 f states that one must be a "qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate" to have a CAP glider pilot rating. One could reasonably argue that a pilot with a powered CAPF 5 and a FAA glider rating at the private pilot level (or better) could submit for CAP glider pilot wings, but that would be a stretch. If the pilot only holds a glider rating, then he/she must complete a CAPF 5G prior to being authorized to wear CAP glider pilot wings, because the CAPF 5G is required to be a "qualified CAP pilot".

Clear as mud?

[JohnKachenmeister]

You're making my brain hurt.

Glider pilot wings=FAA glider license.

Fly a CAP glider=FAA Glider License+CAP member+some kind of uniform+a CAP form 5G in the past year. 

Now, if you want a tow pilot, THAT's gonna get complicated!

[mdickinson]

Glider pilot wings=FAA glider license.

No. It used to be that simple, but not any more. The old regulation said "FAA pilot license with glider rating." But the current CAPR 35-6 says:

Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.

(boldface mine)

The regulation is clearly misworded. "Qualified CAP pilot" means an airplane or glider pilot who has passed a form 5 checkride at some point. Not a "form 5 or form 5G" but a "CAPF 5 flight check." This, I believe, is an error in the writing of the regulation. _{[edited by mdickinson to correct]}

The intent was probably to say "qualified CAP Glider Pilot," which would have meant not just a glider rating, but someone who has passed a CAPF 5G checkride. Unfortunately, that's not what they wrote. _{[edited by mdickinson to correct]}

I guess someone should speak with the OPR of 35-6 and let them know about the mistake. In the meantime, it would appear that the only folks who can earn glider wings are those who have passed a CAPF 5 checkride AND hold a glider rating.

[BlueLakes1]

Glider pilot wings=FAA glider license.

No. It used to be that simple, but not any more. The old regulation said "FAA pilot license with glider rating." But the current CAPR 35-6 says:

Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.

(boldface mine)

The regulation is clearly misworded. "Qualified CAP pilot" means an airplane (not glider) pilot who has passed a form 5 checkride at some point.

The intent was probably to say "qualified CAP Glider Pilot," which would have meant not just a glider rating, but someone who has passed a CAPF 5G checkride. Unfortunately, that's not what they wrote.

I guess someone should speak with the OPR of 35-6 and let them know about the mistake. In the meantime, it would appear that the only folks who can earn glider wings are those who have earned CAP airplane wings AND hold a glider rating.

Time out...again. The regulation is not misworded at all, it's very clear.

c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
     (1) Be an active CAP member at least 17 years of age (16 of age for CAP glider pilots).
     (2) Posess a valid FAA private, commercial or airline transport pilot certificate.
     (3) Posess a valid class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).
     (4) Posess a current flight review IAW FAR 61.56.
     (5) Satisfactorarily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.
     (6) Complete an annual CAPF 5 written examination and aircraft annual questionnaires (attachments 3 and 4) for each aircraft authorized to fly.

*From CAPR 60-1, 7 Dec 06, with changes 1 and 2. Boldface and italics mine for emphasis.*

A properly qualified glider pilot, who flies nothing but gliders, is as much a "CAP Pilot" as us powered airplane drivers. The specific reference to "aircraft", rather than "airplane" in both the introductory sentence and throughout the paragraph, and the addition of separate glider pilot references in this paragraph clearly indicate that one need not be a Form 5 qualified powered airplane driver to be a "Qualified CAP Pilot". In fact, the word "airplane" does not appear anywhere in the paragraph. Ergo, a glider pilot who wishes to wear CAP glider pilot wings may indeed be a "Qualified CAP Pilot", and he/she must comply with the requirements of this regulation (like have completed a CAPF 5G, per item (5)) before being authorized to do so.

Now, as I mentioned before, the wording creates a loophole in which a qualified CAP airplane pilot, who happens to hold an FAA glider rating, could be approved for glider wings without a Form 5G; I do agree with that. However, that loophole most certainly does not prevent glider pilots without powered ratings from being a "Qualified CAP Pilot", or from being properly awarded glider pilot wings.

[CapnSuper]

Wow.  If I still had a brain, it would be hurting now.  What appears so clear to others is still a can of worms to me (or those are my brains leaking out).  I honestly still don't know the answer.  But... I think I am beginning to figure out the root of my confusion.  Allow me to show my cards, play along if you dare but don't jump ahead:

[ taking a deep breath – here is my guess]

WHO earns CAP wings (35-6) may indeed be separate from who is a CAP pilot (60-1).  Otherwise why are there two requirements in 35-6, both 60-1 and an FAA ticket, which itself is a requirement of 60-1?

WHO earns CAP wings is determined in CAP REGULATION 35-6 (E) 17 AUGUST 2002:
This regulation says who in CAP gets AERONAUTICAL RATINGS, among other things.  In it is this:
   ---
1. Aeronautical Ratings and Requirements. Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating. Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate.
   ---
In its' simplest terms, it seems that 35-6 means no wings for people with only FAA ratings (albeit since FAA certification is required in 60-1, delineating it separately in two regulations seems puzzling... but I'll get to that).  CAP wings seem only for CAP ratings, which have requirements which must be met and are detailed in CAPR 60-1.

HOW they earn CAP wings is in 60-1 specifically CAP REGULATION 60-1, 7 DECEMBER 2006, INCLUDES CHANGE 1, 23 JANUARY 2007 AND CHANGE 2, 23 JULY 2007 which begins:
   ---
Operations
CAP FLIGHT MANAGEMENT
This regulation prescribes the responsibilities of all Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel as applicable to the control and management of CAP flying programs, aircraft, and aircrews.
   ---
This indicates it is for people who FLY IN CAP, not just have FAA ratings. 

Oddly, it does distinguish programs, aircraft, and aircrews.  And with the distinguishing of BOTH an FAA cert. and 60-1 requirements in 35-6, I remain puzzled.  Does separately calling this out in both 35-6 and in 60-1 mean if you don't fly CAP aircrews or in CAP aircraft but are in a CAP flying program (whatever that means I really don't know but does that include a non-CAP-pilot AEO ?) then you might not have any further requirements in CAPR 60-1. Hmmm. 

Further in 60-1:
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes aircrew qualifications and requirements to fly CAP aircraft.

It appears then that at face value 60-1 is solely focused on exactly that: aircrew qualifications and requirements to fly CAP aircraft.  In 60-1 it goes on to list the types of CAP glider pilots:

5-2. CAP Glider, Orientation, Instructor, and Check Pilots. CAP glider, orientation, instructor, and check pilots will be qualified and maintain currency in accordance with chapter 3.

So, as in the case of those of us who are FAA rated but are not CAP pilots, crews, or flying CAP aircraft in that capacity, it would seem that 60-1 requirements may be MET by simply not being a CAP pilot or aircrew member.

Is it really as simple as this?  Does 35-6 mean A or B, where:
(A) If 35-6 means to wear CAP wings I must be a CAP pilot or crew, then I must be a CAP pilot by all of 60-1
(B) If 35-6 means to wear CAP wings I must fulfill 60-1, which only applies to me if I want to be a CAP pilot, aircrew, or fly CAP aircraft

That's what I thought at first. And I clearly was leaning towards B, none of 60-1 applies to me so I can dismiss those qualifications.

However, there may be a simple solution to what up to now have been confusing (or conflicting) CAP regulations. 

35-6 says that I must be a "Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) glider private pilot certificate."

So what does 60-1 say is a qualified CAP pilot?
1-6. Explanation of Terms. The following terms and acronyms used throughout this regulation are defined and explained as follows:
c. CAP Pilot. A CAP member holding an FAA pilot certificate who is authorized to operate CAP aircraft on CAP flight activities.

It seems clear: 35-6 requires a qualified CAP pilot, and to be a qualified CAP pilot I must be authorized to operate CAP aircraft on CAP activities (even if I NEVER will operate in that capacity, as in my case).

Well, I still don't know why 35-6 lists an FAA license plus 60-1 when 60-1 itself already requires an FAA license, and I suspect that may be part of why there is confusion. 

As I see it, CAP members young or old who have FAA ratings still cannot wear wings if they do not meet 60-1 regs and maintain their qualifications as a "qualified CAP pilot".  Seems then that I was told correctly.

So it's murky water, which is better than mud now, but I still feel like I'm floundering.  Probably that's why I'm not a lawyer.

Thanks to all, and please correct me as needed.
CapnSuper

[mdickinson]

If you think your head hurts now, just be thankful you didn't ask about balloon wings!

Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
g.  CAP Balloon Pilot Rating.  Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a FAA balloon private pilot certificate.

(what they meant to say is: "an FAA private pilot (at least) certificate with a balloon rating")

So now you go to 60-1 to find out how to become a "Qualified CAP pilot" in a balloon... good luck!

The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
(3)  Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).

...uh oh, they forgot to mention that a medical is not required for balloons either. Looks like your balloon pilot is going to have to go get a medical if he wants his wings!

(5)  Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.

...and he is also going to have to take a CAPF 5 ride in an airplane, if you read that last sentence literally.

Redfire11 stated below that he believes this reference to a "CAPF 5 flight check" really means "CAPF 5 or CAPF 5G." I certainly agree that it should say that... but it doesn't. And it's a catch-22 for the balloon pilot, since there is no form 5B for balloons. Perhaps paragraph 1-3.c. allows wings to make such a form - and alter the necessary paragraphs of CAPR 60-1 to make it fit?

[JohnKachenmeister]

IF it is required to pass a form 5 ride (which is for powered aircraft) AND have an FAA glider rating to wear glider wings, why would they even HAVE glider wings?  The member would qualify for pilot wings, so additional wings are superfluous.

Also no medical is required for gliders as well as balloons.

The wording of the regulation makes no sense.  This is a side effect of appointing syncophants as wing commanders on the National Board.  They don't read what they vote on.

I REALLY think that:

Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.

Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.

Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

IF you disagree with my interpretation, please stand over with the Uniform Nazis who tell me I cannot wear the golf shirt and gray shorts while flying a glider in Florida.

Sorry, but I suffer from PTSD, and as a result of my mental affliction I have a very short attention span when dealing with poorly-worded regulations.

[BlueLakes1]

If you think your head hurts now, just be thankful you didn't ask about balloon wings!

Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
g.  CAP Balloon Pilot Rating.  Qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and hold at least a FAA balloon private pilot certificate.

(what they meant to say is: "an FAA private pilot (at least) certificate with a balloon rating")

So now you go to 60-1 to find out how to become a "Qualified CAP pilot" in a balloon... good luck!

Given the relatively small number of wings that operate balloon programs, NHQ has left the design and management of such programs to the wings that do, including the requirements for pilot qualification.

c. Wings operating hot air balloons in CAP flight activies shall publish flight management and operating procedures in a supplement to this regulation IAW paragraph 1-3b above.

You become a "Qualified CAP pilot" in a balloon by meeting the requirements of an approved wing supplement to 60-1 to operate balloons in that wing.

The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
(3)  Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).

...uh oh, they forgot to mention that a medical is not required for balloons either. Looks like your balloon pilot is going to have to go get a medical if he wants his wings!

Whether or not a balloon pilot needs a Class III medical to operate a balloon as a CAP pilot would also need to be outlined in an approved wing supplement to 60-1 from a wing that operates balloons. If the supplement didn't state that the pilot need not hold a medical, then yes, they would need to.

(5)  Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.

...and he is also going to have to take a CAPF 5 ride in an airplane, if you read that last sentence literally.

Redfire11 stated below that he believes this reference to a "CAPF 5 flight check" really means "CAPF 5 or CAPF 5G." I certainly agree that it should say that... but it doesn't. And it's a catch-22 for the balloon pilot, since there is no form 5B for balloons. Perhaps paragraph 1-3.c. allows wings to make such a form - and alter the necessary paragraphs of CAPR 60-1 to make it fit?

A CAPF 5G is still the applicable and appropriate CAPF 5 for that group of aircraft. Again, if the intent was that you need to take a CAPF 5 in an airplane, it would say "airplane" and not "aircraft" in this line. While the "basic" requirements require a CAPF 5/5G, the wing supplements may not require such a check for balloons. They may have developed a Wing Form 5B; they may require annual checks with a balloon DPE, they might say that as long as you hold a current flight review in balloons, you're qualified. Remember that all 60-1 supplements have to be approved by both NHQ CAP and HQ CAP/USAF, so there can be no doubt that the requirements set in them are appropriate and acceptable. So, if you meet the requirements to be a CAP balloon pilot IAW that wing supplement, you then meet the CAPR 60-1 requirements as a "Qualified CAP pilot" in balloons, and you meet the CAPR 35-6 requirements for balloon pilot wings.

*Here, I went and found this on the NHQ site. Very clearly outlines the requirements to be a CAP balloon pilot in their wing. http://www.cap.gov/documents/Delaware_CAPR_601_Supplement_1_Balloon.pdf

[arajca]

I REALLY think that:

Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.

Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.

Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

I believe CAP has at least one balloon in Illinois.

IF you disagree with my interpretation, please stand over with the Uniform Nazis who tell me I cannot wear the golf shirt and gray shorts while flying a glider in Florida.

Other than my point, I think (bad habit, I know) you're right.

[JohnKachenmeister]

We have a balloon?

[Al Sayre]

We've got one in MS, but is down for an AD right now...

[CapnSuper]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

[BlueLakes1]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

[MIKE]

See the other thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3531.0

[JohnKachenmeister]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

[BlueLakes1]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

John, you're right, they get their wings AFTER UPT, upon completion of their course of study. My point was that the holder of an FAA rating does not automatically get to wear USAF/USN wings based on the FAA rating alone. Pilots who join CAP should also have to complete CAP pilot qualification prior to being awarded/wearing CAP pilot wings, IMHO.

[mdickinson]

As I see it, CAP members young or old who have FAA ratings still cannot wear wings if they do not meet 60-1 regs and maintain their qualifications as a "qualified CAP pilot".

(emphasis mine)

No. Once the wings are earned, the wearer continues to wear them for the rest of his/her CAP career. It is not necessary that they maintain their qualifications.

We have hundreds of CAP members wearing their wings who have not been qualified in CAP aircraft, or served as a pilot of any aircraft, in ten or twenty years.

35-6 makes no mention of a requirement to stay current. Please don't make up requirements.

[mdickinson]

I REALLY think that:
- Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.
- Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.
- Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

John, we've been back and forth on this several times now.

- You say "I feel glider and balloon pilots need nothing more than a glider or balloon rating to wear the CAP glider or balloon wings."

- Redfire11 or I respond "no, that used to be the case, but the current CAPR 35-6 clearly says that nowadays, you have to have become a CAP pilot (in airplanes, glider, or balloons) in order to earn the wings - which means you have to pass a CAP checkride." We then quote you the regulation that shows this requirement.

- You respond "I REALLY think that glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating."

I'm starting to feel like we are talking to a wall here. Listen: 35-6 has changed. An FAA rating is no longer enough. The person has to become a qualified pilot to earn their wings now. Please don't confuse newer members by saying otherwise.

And yes, CAP has balloons. Not just a few, either. At least five or ten wings have CAP owned hot-air balloons. Some wings (Illinois, for one) offer a balloon solo flight academy every summer.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Seems there are clearly two camps on this.  I didn't mean to hijack the original question in regard to cadets, only to expand it to include all members, and I still don't know if the original question was answered definitively. 

I totally agree with John Kachenmeister in the sense of "poorly-worded regulations."  And by golly I think my head is starting to hurt now.  Is there any history of effectively recommending to whomever at NHQ that the two regs in this thread be reconciled into some clear statement?  Without hijacking the thread, (I can open a new one if it helps) how does one get that moving?

For example, if this is the NHQ position, change 35-6 to simply state "to wear CAP wings, have an FAA rating".  Then in 60-1 "To fly CAP aircraft or be an aircrew member, fulfill 60-1"  or something just as clearly distinctive? 

In plain English?  I mean, make it less CAP-ish, capiche?

Thanks again,
CapnSuper

I'll jump on board with the poorly worded thought...or at least that the two regulations don't jibe with each other.

I disagree totally with the idea that an FAA rating automatically grants CAP wings, and I believe that the intent is that one MUST qualify as a CAP pilot in order to wear CAP wings, regardless. Let's be real, if a FAA pilot goes to USAF UPT, or to USN flight training, they don't just give them their wings, they must qualify as an aviator under their guidlelines to earn them. I believe the same holds true for CAP wings; if you want them, meet the standards and take the Form 5 (or 5G or 5B, as applicable).

Actually, there are two points to be made.

1.  The rule on FAA license being enough to grant the privilege of wearing glider and balloon wings (ASEL is not a part of this portion of the discussion) is due to the fact that glider/balloon availability and availability of check pilots is uneven at best.  Also, gliders and balloons have no function in CAP except for cadet orientation flying, and in that case a 5G is required.  The wings are issued more as a courtesy than as a statement of mission qualification.

2.  I THINK that AF pilots ARE awarded wings upon completion of UPT.  Then they go on as pilots to their follow-on training in specific aircraft. 

John, you're right, they get their wings AFTER UPT, upon completion of their course of study. My point was that the holder of an FAA rating does not automatically get to wear USAF/USN wings based on the FAA rating alone. Pilots who join CAP should also have to complete CAP pilot qualification prior to being awarded/wearing CAP pilot wings, IMHO.

Matt:

What do you do with a cadet, or officer, who qualifies as a glider pilot but belongs to a wing with no glider?  And no glider check pilot?  Your plan would allow someone assigned to a wing with a very active glider program to take a ride with a CAP check pilot and be awarded wings, but the equally-qualified pilot in the wing with no glider is just screwed.

This does not apply to powered flight ratings, only gliders and balloons, and those wings are awarded merely as a courtesy.  IF a member wants to actually fly a glider as a cadet O-flight pilot, he has to do a lot more than a form 5G.  I think the threshold is 100 flights to be qualified to fly cadets.

And there is no "5B."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I REALLY think that:
- Glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating.
- Glider pilots cannot fly CAP gliders unless they also pass a form 5G flight.
- Balloon pilots don't have such a consideration, since CAP does not have balloons.

John, we've been back and forth on this several times now.

- You say "I feel glider and balloon pilots need nothing more than a glider or balloon rating to wear the CAP glider or balloon wings."

- Redfire11 or I respond "no, that used to be the case, but the current CAPR 35-6 clearly says that nowadays, you have to have become a CAP pilot (in airplanes, glider, or balloons) in order to earn the wings - which means you have to pass a CAP checkride." We then quote you the regulation that shows this requirement.

- You respond "I REALLY think that glider and balloon pilots can wear the wings with only the FAA rating."

I'm starting to feel like we are talking to a wall here. Listen: 35-6 has changed. An FAA rating is no longer enough. The person has to become a qualified pilot to earn their wings now. Please don't confuse newer members by saying otherwise.

And yes, CAP has balloons. Not just a few, either. At least five or ten wings have CAP owned hot-air balloons. Some wings (Illinois, for one) offer a balloon solo flight academy every summer.

OK.  I give up trying to make sense out of it.  Later on in 60-1 it also says that "All CAP form 5 flight checks will include a minimum of 3 (including soft and short field) takeoffs and landings."

Soft field is no problem, but I've never seen a short-field takeoff procedure in a glider.

And... 3 takeoffs and landings?  With an aero tow each time?

My last form 5G was accomplished in one flight.

That was the point I was trying to make.  IF the requirement for a form 5 checkride was to be extended to glider pilots, the regulation would read "Form 5 or form 5G..."

To me, it is clear that the intent of the regulation is to exempt glider pilots from the requirement for a CAP checkride, unless they fly gliders in a "CAP flight activity."  Then they have to meet additional requirements.  This regulation is not clearly written.

I did not know that CAP had balloons.  How does a balloon pilot qualify for his flying light bulb?  There isn't a form "5B." 

[BlueLakes1]

Matt:

What do you do with a cadet, or officer, who qualifies as a glider pilot but belongs to a wing with no glider?  And no glider check pilot?  Your plan would allow someone assigned to a wing with a very active glider program to take a ride with a CAP check pilot and be awarded wings, but the equally-qualified pilot in the wing with no glider is just screwed.

This does not apply to powered flight ratings, only gliders and balloons, and those wings are awarded merely as a courtesy.  IF a member wants to actually fly a glider as a cadet O-flight pilot, he has to do a lot more than a form 5G.  I think the threshold is 100 flights to be qualified to fly cadets.

And there is no "5B."

John,

There are a couple ways that pilot could "qualify as a glider pilot" IAW CAP regulations. Now, it will be much easier if the pilot happens to already be designated as a CAP pilot (60-1 para 3-2c definition) in powered aircraft. Assuming that the pilot is, the pilot would not be pursuing initial designation as a CAP pilot, and could have an FAA inspector, DPE, etc. sign off the CAPF 5G, assuming they covered the oral part with a CAP glider check pilot. If that's not an option, I say that the pilot would either need to travel somewhere to get the checkride done, or unfortunately, you're right, the pilot is probably hosed.

For the record, INWG is blessed to have a group of very dedicated individuals who are working hard to grow our glider program. Our Sailplane Operations Officer did just that - traveled to Illinois to get CAP glider training. I'd also point out that while its a bummer for the glider pilot, its no worse than a powered pilot who has the misfortune of living too far from a CAP powered airplane. They can drive for the checkride, but they'll rarely, if ever, get to use the qualification.

Those wings aren't awarded as a courtesy; those wings show that the pilot has met the requisite requirements of CAPR 60-1 and 35-6 to wear them. I'm honestly not a uniform nazi by any stretch, but I'll admit that I do get peeved when I see people wearing wings who haven't earned them.

The "5B" reference was to the Delaware Wing Form 5B. Successful completion is mandated by DEWG 60-1 Supplement 1 for qualification as a balloon pilot in DEWG. I'm not sure what the other wings with balloons use, that was a generic reference.

[BlueLakes1]

OK.  I give up trying to make sense out of it.  Later on in 60-1 it also says that "All CAP form 5 flight checks will include a minimum of 3 (including soft and short field) takeoffs and landings."

Soft field is no problem, but I've never seen a short-field takeoff procedure in a glider.

And... 3 takeoffs and landings?  With an aero tow each time?

My last form 5G was accomplished in one flight.

That was the point I was trying to make.  IF the requirement for a form 5 checkride was to be extended to glider pilots, the regulation would read "Form 5 or form 5G..."

To me, it is clear that the intent of the regulation is to exempt glider pilots from the requirement for a CAP checkride, unless they fly gliders in a "CAP flight activity."  Then they have to meet additional requirements.  This regulation is not clearly written.

5-13. CAPF 5G Evaluations. Paragraph 3-5h does not apply to CAPF 5G evaluations. Except as noted below, one landing is required to complete the checkride (more landings may be required at the discretion of the check pilot). If the pilot taking the evaluation has not accomplished and logged a simulated rope break within the preceding 12 calendar months and when weather conditions will safely permit, the CAPF 5G will include a simulated rope break on takeoff (above 200 feet AGL). If a simulated rope break is accomplished, at least one other landing is required as part of the CAPF 5G evaluation.

I think that covers most of your questions regarding multiple landings.

If the intent was to limit the CAPF 5 requirement to airplanes, the regulation would say so...it wouldn't say "aircraft" and make two separate exemptions (one for PIC age 16 and one removing the requirement for a class III medical) for glider pilots.

I did not know that CAP had balloons.  How does a balloon pilot qualify for his flying light bulb?  There isn't a form "5B." 

c.  Wings operating hot air balloons in CAP flight activities shall publish flight management and operating procedures in a supplement to this regulation IAW paragraph 1-3b above.

So, the wings publish their own rules for operating balloons, and NHQ must bless them as valid. Qualifying as a CAP balloon pilot IAW an authorized wing supplement satisfies the "qualified CAP pilot IAW CAPR 60-1" requirement in CAPR 35-6, and thereby authorizes the pilot to wear the "flying lightbulb".

Delaware Wing uses the Wing Form 5B for the initial and annual balloon checkride for their pilots.

[BlueLakes1]

Lots of updated Knowledgebase questions came out today. Here goes.

Requirements to wear CAP pilot wings

  Question
  Are we authorized to wear CAP pilot wings with our uniform when not yet checked out in a CAP aircraft? Such as, a member who is a current private pilot but does not yet meet the CAP requirements?

  Answer
  No. To be qualified as a CAP pilot and wear CAP pilot wings, a member must meet the requirements, including CAPF 5 flight checks, outlined in See CAP REGULATION 60-1 CAP FLIGHT MANAGEMENT

3-2. Pilot Qualifications.

c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
1) Be an active CAP member at least 17 years of age (16 years of age for CAP glider pilots).
2) Possess a valid FAA private, commercial or airline transport pilot certificate.
3) Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).
4) Possess a current flight review IAW FAR 61.56.
5) Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.
6) Complete an annual CAPF 5 written examination and annual aircraft questionnaires (attachments 3 and 4) for each aircraft authorized to fly.

3-5. CAPF 5 Flight Checks. All CAP pilots, except CAP cadet student pilots or CAP glider student pilots under the supervision of a CAP instructor, must satisfactorily complete required CAPF 5 flight checks. The minimum level of proficiency acceptable is that contained in the current FAA Pilot Practical Test Standards for the certificate being exercised. For CAP instructor/check pilots, the minimum level of proficiency acceptable is that contained in the current FAA Flight Instructor and Co mmercial Pilot Practical Test Standards. CAPF 5 flight checks shall be administered and accomplished in accordance with the guidelines contained in attachment 5. Whenever possible, the check pilot will not be the PIC. All CAP flight checks, except mission flight checks (attachment 6), are valid for 12 months, through the end of the month in which it was taken. Applicants for a CAP pilot flight check must provide proof of FAA passenger carrying proficiency [as stated in FAR 61.57(a)(1)] in category and class prior to beginning a CAP flight check.
a. An initial CAPF 5 flight check administered by a CAP check pilot must be satisfactorily completed prior to designation of a CAP member as a CAP pilot.
b. All CAP pilots must complete an initial CAPF 5 flight check in each aircraft type flown.

Also see Answer 788: Qualifications for CAP senior pilot rating Click Here

         

[SJFedor]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

[SarDragon]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

Once you have initially fully qualified for an aeronautical rating or GT rating, and the paperwork has been done authorizing wear of the badge, it's your forever, unless revoked for cause.

[Eclipse]

So, one would say that once their form 5 is up, their wings go away until they re-qualify, right?

Once you have initially fully qualified for an aeronautical rating or GT rating, and the paperwork has been done authorizing wear of the badge, it's your forever, unless revoked for cause.

Yep, complete 1 form 5 your whole CAP career, or finish the GT and then quit ES, they are still yours.