New patch helps keep Vanguard profitable

[Nomex Maximus]

Just got the email from wing : new command patch:

I have been in CAP less than eight months and have seen two different command patches put on our stuff.

[SDF_Specialist]

Another one? I know it's missing the CAP abbreviation, and that the full CIVIL AIR PATROL is on the scroll,  but I can't remember what was on the scroll before.

[SJFedor]

First, we had the CAP letters under the prop, and US AIR FORCE AUXILIARY on the scroll. Then, there was US where the CAP letters were, and CIVIL AIR PATROL on the scroll. Now, this.

[SarDragon]

Well, that's what the blue magic markers are for.

[Nomex Maximus]

It WAS US Air Force Auxiliary... then it changed to what I have now... and now it has change to something else so I have to buy yet another...

[SDF_Specialist]

So when does everyone think the uniform alterations will cease? We seem to have ourselves in a very expensive pattern. Something I'm not all about keeping up on.

[Tubacap]

How can we as members stop this from going through???  Enough is enough already with this patch!

[SDF_Specialist]

I don't think I've read anywhere in the regs that a petition can't be filed with NHQ.

[SJFedor]

i see no national ICL on the website, so i dunno...maybe that's just an altered picture w/ the US removed. Might still be the same one that was previously approved.

Speaking of, did the AF ever approve the 2nd command patch?

[RiverAux]

I actually didn't have any major problem with the command patch with US in it...I just didn't see it as an early step in the campaign to change the name of the organization.  I thought of it as a throwback to the WWII era CAP symbol. 

[MIKE]

Ditto.  There is nothing really wrong with the U.S. version, though having U.S. or CAP on the shield is a little off from a heraldic standpoint.  Removing it is a little more balanced and in line with the elements of the seal etc.

[CASH172]

All I have to say is come on two new patches in like less than a year. 

[Cecil DP]

I don't think I've read anywhere in the regs that a petition can't be filed with NHQ.

Any suggestions/recommendations for uniform changes go through channels up to National and the National Board for consideration (unless you're He who will not be named)

[Nomex Maximus]

All I have to say is come on two new patches in like less than a year. 

And all the money spent changing patches and airplane decals is money not being spent training and flying!

[JC004]

Uh...let's back up here.  I don't know that people were so offended to be "U.S" as to NOT be "Civil Air Patrol - U.S. Air Force Auxiliary."  National Board observers: let's be clear on this.  The "U.S" offended folk due to its implied secession from the Air Force part of things.

[RiverAux]

The "U.S" offended folk due to its implied secession from the Air Force part of things.

No, it was the fact that is wasn't the darned name of our organization that was the problem.  We are not the American Civil Air Patrol either and "American" would be just as wrong as putting "U.S." in front of Civil Air Patrol.  Most of us probably wouldn't have liked it if they had actually changed the name officially, but wouldn't have been quite so put out as the approval of something that violates the CAP Constitution itself. 

[Pylon]

If they are seriously thinking of implementing the fourth patch for the flight suit breast in under 5 years, I seriously will barf.

CAP Seal -> CAP/USAF Auxiliary Command Patch -> U.S. CAP Command Patch -> CAP Command Patch

Please, for the love of retention, knock it off.  If this is just somebody's joke.... not funny.  "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" as an organizational name was an issue, but at this point, I don't think we need to remove the detached "U.S." from the command patch.  If anything, reauthorize the old one, or both of the current designs but do not just make up yet another new design.   

[LtCol Hooligan]

Hey guys- not sure about this, but isn't that image the exact same ugly thing we stuck on our vans?  Honestly, I think we need to hang in there until we see formal correspondence coming from NHQ.  In all the US removal conversations going on, I have yet to see a formal policy letter from BG Amy and right now we are getting speculation handed down from a few people.  I definitely think we have a wild ride in front of us, but let's hang in there before grabbing the markers!!  That is a fugly patch if it is true!!

[Pylon]

Hey guys- not sure about this, but isn't that image the exact same ugly thing we stuck on our vans? 

Nope.  The second most recent command patch design, which was for the flight suits and the van decals, had the letters "U.S." in the blue field.  This most recent design (origins unknown?  anybody have any references on this?) shows the "U.S." being removed.

[Nomex Maximus]

If they are seriously thinking of implementing the fourth patch for the flight suit breast in under 5 years, I seriously will barf.

CAP Seal -> CAP/USAF Auxiliary Command Patch -> U.S. CAP Command Patch -> CAP Command Patch

Please, for the love of retention, knock it off.  If this is just somebody's joke.... not funny.  "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" as an organizational name was an issue, but at this point, I don't think we need to remove the detached "U.S." from the command patch.  If anything, reauthorize the old one, or both of the current designs but do not just make up yet another new design.   

Not a joke; this was in an email forwarded from my squadron commander from NHQ.

[pixelwonk]

This thread is kinda useless without a true source.

[Pylon]

Not a joke; this was in an email forwarded from my squadron commander from NHQ.

Can you copy and paste that email here, and just remove the email addresses from the header?



If this is true, this is the progression for the patches in the last few years.  What a joke and absolutely UNSAT.

[Psicorp]

Sent out yesterday from the MIWG CC:


Subject: New CAP Command Patch
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:25:50 -0600

Attached is the new CAP Command Patch as of 13 Nov 07. 

Please replace all current briefings and media with this version and pass on to anyone in the field that you know uses it.

Thanks

Missie Derocher-Harris

Executive Assistant & Chief of Protocol
CAP National Headquarters
Toll Free: 1-xxx-xxx-xxxx Ext. xxx
(DSN) xxx-xxxx
Fax: (xxx) xxx-xxxx
mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx

sanitized email and phones -TA

[Nomex Maximus]

This thread is kinda useless without a true source.

email addresses redacted a bit...opsec, you know...

"Tynan, Jim" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

Subject: RE: New CAP Command Patch
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:21:45 -0600
From: "Tynan, Jim" <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "CAP Corporate Team" xxx@xxx.xxx>

Attached is the version that will slip into PowerPoint without the white background.



Jim


James F. Tynan
Deputy Director, Creative Services
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell St.
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112
Toll free: (xxx) xxx-xxxx, ext. xxx
Comm: (xxx) xxx-xxxx, ext. xxx
DSN: xxx-xxxx, ext. xxx
Cell: (xxx) xxx-xxxx
www.cap.gov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Derocher-Harris, Missie
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:26 AM
To: CAP Corporate Team
Subject: New CAP Command Patch

Attached is the new CAP Command Patch as of 13 Nov 07.  This is also available on the n drive at:  N:\CAP logos\cap command patch

Please replace all current briefings and media with this version and pass on to anyone in the field that you know uses it.

Thanks

Missie Derocher-Harris
Executive Assistant & Chief of Protocol
CAP National Headquarters
Toll Free: 1-xxx-xxx-xxx Ext. xxx
(DSN) xxx-xxxx
Fax: (xxx) xxx-xxxx
mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx

sanitized email and phones -TA

[Flying Pig]

Mine are brand new.  Im not buying another one.

[alamrcn]

Everyone here was joking and complaining about the adding os U.S. to Civil Air Patrol, and now the same folks are whining about it being removed.

Was it posted here already about the cloth tapes going BACK to just Civil Air Patrol - that the U.S. will not be worn anymore? This is all TP-reversal, and tryin g to undue the damage. I got an e-mail last week about the NEC officially anouncing the elimination of the term "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" from everything down to your e-mail signatures.

I still need to buy one of the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes for my collection - maybe Vanguard is having a fire sale!

-Ace

[pixelwonk]

I'll send ya one.  PM me with an address.

[CAP_truth]

It appears that CAP is abolishing the US Air Force before they can be abolished as a separate branch of the military.

[Pylon]

Everyone here was joking and complaining about the adding os U.S. to Civil Air Patrol, and now the same folks are whining about it being removed.

Nope, Ace, that's not the issue.  I'm fine with the name of the organization ceasing to be U.S. Civil Air Patrol.  The issue is that since 1 March 2004, we've already have had three incarnations of the flight suit breast patch... which mirrors the "command patch" design.  I'm worried that they'll push out yet another version of the patch for flight suit wear.   If we're just reversing the changes made, why can't we revert to the existing, previous patch?  Why do we need to come up with yet another, fourth patch?

Lastly, if the insistence is that the command patch must now have "Civil Air Patrol" on it, and not U.S. Air Force Auxiliary -- fine, keep the one we're already phasing in.    The separate "U.S." letters in the blue field does not mean our organizations name is "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" just as much as the "U.S." cutouts on our service dress do not indicate the same. 

Either leave the patch alone and let us phase in what they just implemented six months ago, or revert to the one before it.  I (along with quite a few other CAP members) are getting very tired of patch changes and repeated mandatory orders from Vanguard to keep our uniforms in line.

[Al Sayre]

I can tell you that as a SQ/CC I haven't received any email regarding the change as of 30 seconds ago...

[alamrcn]

Hey, at least this patch is/can be Velcro'd on! That lessons the hassle to only ponying up the cost of a Starbucks coffee (or feeding a small child in Nicaragua for a month) to buy the new patch - then it's just rippin-n-stickin the new one on!

Just hold on to your Version 2 command patch for a year or two, and then sell it on eBay! Insignia around for such a short time as that one was will get rare quite fast, and you'll be able to recoup the original cost of both patches.

Like was said earlier, it's the changing of aircraft decals again and again that's the bigtime bee-ach! Maybe we should have different airforce schemes and corprate schemes for our aircraft, just like we do for our members! If your crew exceeds the weight & balance, you have to fly in the white and grey plane... heh heh

-Ace

[Dragoon]

Methinks this is someone jumping the gun - misunderstanding the recent NEC decison to not call ourselves "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" anymore.

If memory serves the command patch with the "U.S." on it was around long before we added "U.S." to our name.

[ddelaney103]

Methinks this is someone jumping the gun - misunderstanding the recent NEC decison to not call ourselves "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" anymore.

If memory serves the command patch with the "U.S." on it was around long before we added "U.S." to our name.

Concur. The "US" under the prop and triangle was a feature of WWII era patches.

The Nov NEC notes put off any uniform changes to the NB.

[Nomex Maximus]

Vanguard has sold me two command patches both different in less than four months in CAP. Now I need two new ones of the correct type.

[riffraff]

What's the current "correct" command patch?? Regs would seem to indicate it's still the US CAP patch but am I wasting my $$ buying these?

Vanguard is still selling the the CAP/US AIR FORCE AUXILIARY command patch. The US CAP command patch is missing its photo but still listed.

[RiverAux]

The current one is still the US Civil Air Patrol version.  In another thread Lt. Col. White said that the uniform committee will probably be recommending a return to the old CAP-US Air Force  Auxiliary version. 

So, its a crapshoot right now. 

[riffraff]

thanks. I thought I remembered reading that (return to the old patch) but with all the uniform threads running concurrently, I wasn't able to find it.

[RiverAux]

Belay my last.
The 11/20/06 Interim Change Letter to 39-1 authorized the US Civil Air Patrol command patch for wear on the CAP flight suits, but not the AF-style flightsuits:

3. The NEC recently approved a proposal to change the design of the CAP Command Patch. The new design is shown in Attachment 3. Patches with this design are being created by Vanguard and should be available shortly. Members may begin wearing the new patch on the CAP distinctive blue flightsuit/jacket, utility uniform and the black leather jacket as soon as they are available. The Uniform Board is working on the specific implementation details now as well as requesting Air Force approval to change the patch worn on the AF-style green flightsuit and flight jacket. An additional announcement will be made as soon as the details are finalized.

So, if I'm reading that right, then the "old" CAP-US Air Force Auxiliary patch is still what you're supposed to be wearing on AF-style flightsuits according to approved regulations and ICLs.  

[Eclipse]

You wear the original MAJCOM on the green flightsuit, and EITHER on the blue flight suit and utilities until at LEAST Feb 2008.

The NEC did not make any changes to the uniforms, and the uniform boards do no meet until Feb, which is coincidently, the sundown for the original MAJCOM changing to the "new" one.

Next, uniform changes are not made without sundowns and mandatory wear date announcements. (with the exceptions, of course, of the weekly ICL's regarding the CSU).   

The above was clarified by an email from my Region chain of command.

I wouldn't spend a nickel on anything new until after Feb.

[riffraff]

Simplified question: I have a green bag. Which patch do I put on it -- US CAP, CAP/USAFAux, or either?

I'm assuming MAJCOM refers to the CAP/USAFAuxpatch but wanted to clarify.

edit: Just read CAP 39-1 change dtd 10 July 07 and it seems to me to read (para 1a) that the 'newly redesigned command patch' (US CAP?) is authorized for wear on the green suit and jacket.

I need to order patches for my suit. Would the prudent move be to purchase the old CAP/USAFAux command patch? Logic would seem to indicate a move back to that patch although the mandatory wear date for US CAP is March 08.

[Eclipse]

The one approved for the green bag (right now) is #2 (2004)  in this pic:

[Grumpy]

Personnaly, I'm going to wait until General Courter gets her feet firmly on the ground and the dust settles before I buy anything.  Probably be after the first of the year.

[riffraff]

Personnaly, I'm going to wait until General Courter gets her feet firmly on the ground and the dust settles before I buy anything.  Probably be after the first of the year.

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of waiting. I wish I did. It really shouldn't be this difficult! If the current thinking is a move back towards the CAP/USAFAux command patch, I guess I'll order those and take my chances.

Made a call to the unit and my CC is wearing US/CAP on his suit -- citing the 10 Jul 07 change letter as authorizing the US CAP command patch on the green bags and jackets and a mandatory (for now) wear date of March 08.

I'm assuming the phase-out date for the CAP/USAFAux command patch is the same March 08 date? Here's hoping the change is made before then so I don't have to make another purchase.

[MIKE]

See this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1621.0

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of waiting. I wish I did. It really shouldn't be this difficult! If the current thinking is a move back towards the CAP/USAFAux command patch, I guess I'll order those and take my chances.

Of course you do - just don't wear a flightsuit.

If you're this concerned about it, wear a golf shirt until things settle down a bit.

[RiverAux]

Yep, you're right.  Missed the July change letter. 

[riffraff]

Anyone taking bets that we end up wearing both? CAP/USAFAux for AFAMs and US/CAP for work with other agencies?  Or worse, CAP/USAFAux on USAF-style uniforms and US/CAP on corporate 

Just stirring the pot a bit! 

[AlphaSigOU]

Anyone taking bets that we end up wearing both? CAP/USAFAux for AFAMs and US/CAP for work with other agencies?  Or worse, CAP/USAFAux on USAF-style uniforms and US/CAP on corporate 

Just stirring the pot a bit! 

That wouldn't surprise me one bit.

P.S. DAMBUSTERS! (617 posts - after No. 617 Sqn RAF) 

[alamrcn]

I already have my Master Historian, but I'd challange anyone yet to publish their monograph or dissertation to takle acurately documenting (timeline, et al) these insignia changes, as well as their aftermath. Really in all seriousness, don't you think "The Pineda Years" would be an interesting read? It's certainly going to bring even more amazment and coureosity 20 years from now!

In any case...

Missed the July change letter.

I've mentioned it before, but I will keep any change letters on my website even after they will be removed from the Nat'l website. I also have any old manuals, some presentations, and wing suppliments that I could find.
http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/library.html
If you have anything else I don't, please send it on!

-Ace