Fuzzies

[star1151]

I've just always wondered what the big deal is about shaving. If your beard is more important than volunteering, maybe you're not right for this organization. Maybe it's just me.

I hate harping on this, but I will anyway.

Again, I don't grow facial hair, and meet the weight requirements, so this is an outsider's view.

Since I started looking for volunteer work, I've been appalled at the organizations that claim to want volunteers, but are so picky about who volunteers that they turn away people who want nothing more than to help.  I'm not talking about groups that don't take child molesters.  I'm talking about groups who refuse to let people volunteer if they have a full time job and/or travel for work.  Or who turn away those with no volunteer experience.  Or refuse to accept help from those with no children.  Yes, my job is more important than volunteer work and no, I'm not telling my boss, "Sorry, I can't go on that trip because X Organization says no".  Not until the volunteer group starts helping to pay my mortgage.

My point is, if you start turning away volunteers for not meeting ever single little tiny requirement, you're going to find yourself without any.  Again, I'm not saying we should accept anyone and their brother...but beards?  I fail to see how someone with a beard is a blight on the organization.

As a personal note...I feel I have a lot to offer CAP and that I AM right for this group...but I'm still not cutting my hair.  To me, that goes way beyond what a volunteer organization can expect.  I follow less rules than that at my paying job.

[SarDragon]

Funny how the USAF - those crazy folks that fund those real-world activities - seem to pick and choose which things are kosher (beards) and which aren't (rank on Tony's TPU).  Guess they do watch and they don't see a problem with Civil Air Patrol senior members with beards.

But they do have a problem with bearded CAP members wearing their suit.

I don't have, nor have I ever had, issues with the uniform policy set down by the Air Force. I live with the uniforms I am allowed to wear. I serve the organization in whatever capacity I can. I just don't want anyone singling me out because of my beard. It's not a big deal in the big picture.

[SarDragon]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with SMs wearing the corporate uniform with a beard, as long as it's kept well trimmed. What I don't like is when people don't keep there beards clean/professional, which I see more than not.

I've just always wondered what the big deal is about shaving. If your beard is more important than volunteering, maybe you're not right for this organization. Maybe it's just me.

It's you.

My facial hair has never made a difference in my ability to do any job I have ever been qualified to do in CAP. It has made a difference in how some members perceive me, but usually not anyone very important.

I Joined CAP in 1964 as a cadet. Simce becoming a senior member in 1969, upon entry onto active duty in the Navy, I have always given more than I have gotten. I let my membership lapse in the late 70s because I got tired of the hassles over my beard. It was good enough for the Navy, but not for some members of my unit, even though I wore a coat and tie to most meetings.

I rejoined some time later, after the Navy banned beards, and participated in an overseas cadet squadron until I retired from the Navy. I grew my beard back, and shopped around some units in my local area. After more hassles over the facial hair, I ceased participation, but continued to pay dues, still not having given up on the organization. Ten years later, I tried one last time, and here I am, eight years later.

No one I have worked with in my current wing has expressed any negativity about my barbateness.  I have positions in my unit, on group staff, and on wing staff. I do them all with my fuzz and everyone seems to be happy with my performance. Please tell me how I'm not right for the organization.

Yes, I feel strongly about my beard. It IS a big deal for me to shave every day, so I don't. Twice a week, or as needed, works just fine for the areas I still shave.

[Monty]

Funny how the USAF - those crazy folks that fund those real-world activities - seem to pick and choose which things are kosher (beards) and which aren't (rank on Tony's TPU).  Guess they do watch and they don't see a problem with Civil Air Patrol senior members with beards.

But they do have a problem with bearded CAP members wearing their suit.

Not judging you, bro...just mentioning that I think it's interesting how I'm strongly advocating a mission function mindset in my post and your reply takes a uniform (clothing) mindset.

Sigh...

I don't post much on CAPTalk, on account of how things seem to always evolve into a uniforms discussion.

So.....for the record.....I made no mention of what uniform the AF is supporting; I made a mention of the Air Force supporting bearded folks like Dave and (at times) even me! 

(In my opinion, constant discussion of [or degeneration into] uniform comments is inversely proportional to getting credibility from others on matters other than uniforms.)

Deep stuff for 4:25 AM.   

(And to think that talking about clothes has traditionally been seen as a girl thing...  Guess many stereotyping sorts need to vector over here to see what XY sorts are capable of talking about when it comes to clothes, fashions, and trends....) 

[tribalelder]

In a simpler time, a mere 2 versions of 39-1 ago, the uniform was only required when dealing with cadets or flying.  If you were 'under-tall' or 'fuzzy', you wore the same 'work' uniforms -- OD fatigues or flight suit WITHOUT GRADE. 

And a lot us us who were neither 'under-tall' nor 'fuzzy' wore the smurfsuit.

In late 60's-early 70's, CAP even had a non-uniformed members recruiting initiative for owner-pilot specialists-essentially plainclothes mission pilots.

What we wear is does not define our missions.  Let's not misuse the uniform, a mere tool for doing our various missions,  to force talent out.

In all of the 2b's in which I've been the initiator, appeal authority or a board member, the problem members were in love with the USAF uniform. 

[LittleIronPilot]

While I understand many of your points, and they are good ones, there are many, many VOLUNTEER jobs/organizations that have strict dress/uniform/appearance requirements.

I heard something at the SLS course I recently attended, that there is a drive to change the standard phrase of "we are a volunteer organization" to "we are a professional organization staffed by volunteers". To some that may seem semantic, but to me it is a HUGE difference.

In too many debates, on all manner of items, in my short time on CAPTalk I see a common response to many things...."we are a volunteer organization" usually followed by "we do not need to do that".

Does a beard affect your mission? Most likely not...but can it affect the perception someone has of your capability to do your mission? You betcha.

Now for the "stickier" issue...can your weight affect the mission? It most certainly can! Heck I have heard of times where a scanner was not able to get in a 172 because the pilot and observer were too large. THAT is a direct mission impediment.

I, for one, embrace the tight bond with the Air Force and would love to see it tightened even more. And before anyone says anything, yes I have served, I have served in combat, and no I have no desire to rejoin. Instead I want to SERVE on U.S. soil, doing a needed mission, and CAP lets me do that.

Again, I am just surprised by many attitudes that think, again wrongly in my opinion, that because it is a "volunteer" organization it should be lax in its rules.

I've just always wondered what the big deal is about shaving. If your beard is more important than volunteering, maybe you're not right for this organization. Maybe it's just me.

Read the replies above which you obviously skipped over, and then you'll understand at least two of the handful of good reasons why people choose to have beards.



I further don't think people really understand that we're in a volunteer organization where we are losing members quicker than ever.  Our organization has humongous turnover of new members and we spend tons of time figuring out how to entice people to stay... how to retain these people who volunteer their time and efforts.

And then I read part of the reason right here on CAPTalk.  "Hey, I got a great idea.  Let's tell some of our people willing to volunteer their time, their talent and skills and their money for our organization that they just can't play with us, or they have to wear special "distinctive" clothing because they don't look like my idea of what our volunteers should look like."

I shave for CAP, but I don't have a compelling reason not to shave.  Other volunteers do.  We will continue to lose volunteers until this organization realizes that we are not the military, we are not a paramilitary force, and that our effectiveness and success as an organization has nothing to do with how close we look to active duty military.  We are an organization of professionals who give of their time in situations where it does not matter if you have a beard or if you weight a bit more than others when you find that lost hiker, plot those search coordinates, teach a cadet about integrity, or inspire a classroom of school kids with a model rocket. 

Stop needlessly segregating our volunteers so we can look more like the Air Force.  That's a pointless, unproductive goal to have for Civil Air Patrol.  Frankly, I'm willing to bet the Air Force would be much, much, much more impressed with CAP if we just got better at doing our jobs, had more volunteers doing them, and improved our overall organizational effectiveness, rather than if we shunned all of our members into the closet under the stairwell that didn't look like our AF counterparts while simultaneously reducing our effectiveness as a volunteer organization.  But hey, what do I know...

--Mike Kieloch
Member, Administrators of Volunteer Services of CNY
Member, Public Relations Society of America
Member, Association of Fundraising Professionals

[Dragoon]

Tough love here.

I did a look through of every issue of the Volunteer.  Almost no bearded guys.

I looked around our Wing (over over 1000 folks).  Identified 3 bearded guys total who I've ever seen doing much of anything (SARs, Conferences, encampments).


Conclusion - this isn't as big a problem as it sounds.

If we banned beards today, the number of active, productive, valuable members we would lose would be virtually insignifigant.  Less than 1%.

Admittedly, this ain't a scientific study.  the editor of  Volunteer might throw all the pictures of bearded CAP members in the trash because he hates 'em.  Our wing may be an anomoly.

Whether we SHOULD require grooming standards or not is another discussion.  But I do feel confident that doing so would have very little detrimental effect on daily operations.

I had a beard.  I shaved it off.  No big deal. 

[Smokey]

The reason for my post was we have discussed how we have so many different uniforms and different requirements for each that keep changing.

My thought for discussion was the paring down of uniform types. In doing so, I could forsee how the idea of fuzzies could become an issue. Especially since the inception of the TPU that relaxed hgt/wgt issues but excluded those fuzzies.

I have nothing personally against those with beards (neatly trimmed of course). I have no interest in ever growing one and in fact shaved my mustache that I had for 34 years two years ago. ( It turned white with age and now folks say I look  years younger).

Considering that flight suits and BDU type clothes are required for flying and ground team activities, the paring down of uniforms could result in limiting fuzzies to non operational type positions. If that were the case I wondered how many would shave, quit or accept the restriction from flying and ground team activities.

No disrespect for those with facial hair.

[ddelaney103]

The AF doesn't care.

The SOW says wear a uniform, but they don't care if it's corp or AF.

If there were allowances for medical and religious reasons, I'd have no problem with making the grooming regs more restrictive.

I still don't know how it will improve the mission.

This weekend at drill we had two CAP guys in the ops area working with the ARCHER ground station.  They were wearing polo shirts and that didn't seem to be a problem.  I suspect wearing AF style uniforms would have been more problematical.

[star1151]

(And to think that talking about clothes has traditionally been seen as a girl thing...  Guess many stereotyping sorts need to vector over here to see what XY sorts are capable of talking about when it comes to clothes, fashions, and trends....) 

This is the first fashion discussion I've taken part in since....well, ever.  I've been shocked since I started lurking here about the whole thing. :-)

Considering that flight suits and BDU type clothes are required for flying and ground team activities, the paring down of uniforms could result in limiting fuzzies to no operational type positions.

Required?  Says who?  I can act as an aircrew member in the polo uniform just as legally and easily as I can wearing a flight suit.

As far as the weight comments go....come on, it's not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.  When I was in college and learning to fly, I was over the 155 lbs the AF requires for my height.  And guess what?  My instructor and I could still take off in a 152 with full tanks.  I'm within the weight standards now, which is how I can see that a lot of this is just hatred of "fat" people....you know, the last thing it's acceptable to judge people for.  Seriously, are there really *that* many aircrew members so overweight they impede a mission?  I find that hard to believe.

[Hawk200]

I don't understand units that discriminate against those with beards. It doesn't make any difference in how they do their job. Just had a couple of bearded folk join up, they're going to be pretty handy. One is a retired AF flight surgeon, the other a former airline pilot.

I won't say we'd be lost without them, but we can do a lot more with them.

[alamrcn]

Why must a beard be such a permanent fixture for people? I can't believe I'm hearing that someone would quit the program before shaving... such insecurities about personal appearance! Maybe it's time for a make-over if you've become so attached to a certain look that you believe it defines you.

RIGHT NOW, as I type, I have a full 3/4" long beard... a little shorter than this:

Yup, that's me in both! Once in a great while I let the hair go long too.

I do not wear corprates, never have. I know that the next time I need to put a uniform on, I'll have to shave and/or get a hair cut... big deal, feels a little naked at first, but it grows back in about 4 weeks!

This is a hypothetical situation anyway, and it would never happen. CAP would never sacrifice a viable resource in an operational position because of the uniform they are able to wear.

-Ace

[Smokey]

As for flying...out west here in Pacific Region the regs state ...."The standard PCR "appropriate CAP uniform" is a Nomex flight suit, gloves - preferably Nomex -- and full leather boots."

So that is what I based my comment on.  Not sure if other Wings/Regions make the same requirement.   I also think ground team units cannot wear the polo shirt combo for ground team activities.

[Larry Mangum]

The Air Force definitely cares about how we look while wearing uniforms. I attended the Oregon Wing Conference in McMinnville, a couple of weekends ago and the PLR representative in response to a question as to how the Air Force sees us replied that "The Air Force thinks we are great and are a great asset and force multiplier, however you need to work on how we wear our uniforms". 

I relayed this information to our Squadron Commanders during the Washington Wing Conference this last weekend. Then a Commander whose unit meets on an active Air Force installation stand up and emphasis the point even more with examples of things he has been told or seen on the base.

Don't think the active military does not notice how we wear the uniform and how we conduct ourselves, they do!

[Hawk200]

Considering that flight suits and BDU type clothes are required for flying and ground team activities, the paring down of uniforms could result in limiting fuzzies to non operational type positions. If that were the case I wondered how many would shave, quit or accept the restriction from flying and ground team activities.

Not sure I follow. There's a corpoprate equivalent for each military style uniform. For BDU's there's a blue one. For flightsuits, there's also a blue one. Not sure how practical a jumpsuit would be, as I don't have one. But there really shouldn't be any limitation based on uniform.

As for beards, it's not like CAP personnel are wearing gas or oxygen masks. A bearded member can do everything that a non bearded one can.

[Short Field]

As for flying...out west here in Pacific Region the regs state ...."The standard PCR "appropriate CAP uniform" is a Nomex flight suit, gloves - preferably Nomex -- and full leather boots."

The rest of the supplement reads " ...and full leather boots.  Wing Commanders may authorize other CAP uniforms as required to accomplish CAP flight operations IAW CAPR 39-1 or authorize "no" uniforms when specifically requested by the customer for Counter-Drug missions."

I know that at least one wing has issued a policy letter authorizing any CAP uniform for CAP flight operations.

I fully support the intent of Pacific Region Supplement to CAPR 60-1 and wish we could put all our flight crews in a Nomex flight suit, Nomex gloves, and full leather boots.  We just need to stock as many blue Nomex flight suits for free issue as we do the military flight suits.

[Short Field]

In all of the 2b's in which I've been the initiator, appeal authority or a board member, the problem members were in love with the USAF uniform. 

Form before Function.

[ddelaney103]

I fully support the intent of Pacific Region Supplement to CAPR 60-1 and wish we could put all our flight crews in a Nomex flight suit, Nomex gloves, and full leather boots.  We just need to stock as many blue Nomex flight suits for free issue as we do the military flight suits.

Frankly, it's a pretty stupid rule which gives you a feeling of "safe-i-ness" instead of actually enhancing safety.

After asking multiple times on this and other threads, there has been only one reported instance of aramid fiber clothing possibly being of use in an accident.  Most of the CAP accidents reported indicate that the crew was done in by blunt force trauma and fire had little or nothing to do with the deaths.

If we wanted to improve crew survivability, we would consider crash helmets and body armor to protect against the real threat instead of playing silly games with aramid.  We are not military aircrew with fuel tanks full of JP-8 and people throwing high explosive incendiary or armor piercing incendiary at us.

[lordmonar]

Why must a beard be such a permanent fixture for people? I can't believe I'm hearing that someone would quit the program before shaving... such insecurities about personal appearance! Maybe it's time for a make-over if you've become so attached to a certain look that you believe it defines you.

The other side of that coin is what is so god awful important about our organization that it would force people to make the choice about a beard and serving?

[Monty]

Why must a beard be such a permanent fixture for people? I can't believe I'm hearing that someone would quit the program before shaving... such insecurities about personal appearance! Maybe it's time for a make-over if you've become so attached to a certain look that you believe it defines you.

The other side of that coin is what is so god awful important about our organization that it would force people to make the choice about a beard and serving?

Pesky beards remind us that we aren't as "military" as we'd hoped?   

Seriously though, I'm all about compromises.  I'll throw my unadulterated support behind enforcing exact military appearance standards (hair cut, no beards, etc.) and in exchange........

..........let's mandate that before haircuts and beards fall off, we make every senior do a PFT (of course, we want to be like the Air Force so, let's do their standard and not the cadets).

(Right about now, many of the "but, but but" crowd should chime in saying "this is okay but that isn't."

Weft and warp make the cloth, eh? 

I mean if we're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater, let's be sure to be efficient here instead of tit for tat.