Eliminate ugly and expensive Cadet Officer shoulder boards

[Major Carrales]

So please, next time try to avoid twisting my comments into a strawman that is easily attacked. 

Before we continue, please, I meant no disrespect...only difference of opinion.  I get the impression this was written with a sort of "vitriolic" tone.  I will not get into an clash over this issue.

This is about CAP CADET Officer shoulder boards, to which I see has being an ancillary issue.  When Cadets directly interact operationally with military, they are, to my experience, dressed in field uniforms.  Also, when they are being give classes at such facilities and encampments, they are dressed in minimum basic service dress.

The only time they might even wear these things is at some sort of "mess dress" occasion or other ceremonial times when the Military personnel present might also be wearing something that could be described as "gaudy..." from sabres and weaved epaulets to trousers with a bright stripe down the pants or even ornate shoulder chords.

In anycase, CAP is about creating strong citizens using the military model.  In what they dress is not as important as how they dress in it.

[Falshrmjgr]

No, there was no vitriol intended at all.  And I concur wholeheartedly with the sentiment about how they carry themselves.  My point was just that perception is important, and that from time to time we should reevaluate the image that we present.  In the case of the shoulder boards,  they are uniquely ostentatious and expensive.  I then tried to expand that concept to making an argument in favor of making them go away:

1) Cadets are generally not independently wealthy, and that purchasing them as often as a cadet is likely to be promoted is a poor use of cadet's generally limited funds.

2) Cadet shoulder boards do not present an appearance that is in line with active military uniforms,  in that they look more like a Foreign Military than what one would expect of a cadet in an American uniform.  This is turn is counterproductive when interfacing with the active military.

3)  Further, cadet's should have a single style  of uniform, and that should be the officer version and not the enlisted version.

Regards,

/Jaeger

[gallagheria]

3)  Further, cadet's should have a single style  of uniform, and that should be the officer version and not the enlisted version.

Why? Cadet is an enlisted grade.

[Falshrmjgr]

3)  Further, cadet's should have a single style  of uniform, and that should be the officer version and not the enlisted version.

Why? Cadet is an enlisted grade.

Historically, a Cadet was an officer in training.  Think Midshipman as well, living in the grey area between Enlisted and Officer, more analogous to a Warrant Officer.   While obviously at the CAP Cadet/JROTC Cadet level we are not producing officers, the precedent is on the officer side of things.  In fact, up until the end of WWI, JROTC Graduates received eligibility for a Reserve Commission at the age of 21.  No College, No Senior ROTC.  Just JROTC & 21 Years Old.

http://www.khsd.k12.ca.us/south/gied33/greg_underwood/JROTC_History.htm

At its inception, the JROTC course consisted of three hours of military instruction per week for a period of three years. Any JROTC graduate who completed this course of military instruction was authorized a certificate of eligibility for a reserve commission to be honored at age 21 (although this provision was allowed to lapse after World War I as the need for reserve officers declined).

"Cadet" has never been, and is not, and enlisted grade.

/Jaeger

[gallagheria]

Historically, a Cadet was an officer in training.  Think Midshipman as well, living in the grey area between Enlisted and Officer, more analogous to a Warrant Officer.

Yes, cadets are officers in training, but they are enlisted. All cadets, AFROTC or USAFA, are enlisted. Same with all the services, whether cadets or midshipmen, ROTC or Academy. Same thing with the various officer candidates. Read that nice little contract they all sign. By law and regulation all cadets enlist for 8 years in either the reserve or regular component of their branch of the military when they contract. If they commission, they are then appointed, but otherwise owe the military either additional enlisted time or some money, depending on circumstances.

[Eagle400]

I agree with Fallschirmjaeger that the enlisted service dress coat should NOT be worn by CAP cadets, and that the cadet officer shoulder boards need to go.    

I also agree that cadets need to have a single style of uniform.  That is why I'm against them wearing the new enlisted service dress coat and the old service dress coat.  

[gallagheria]

"Cadet" has never been, and is not, and enlisted grade.

That is just ignorance. Cadet (both AFROTC and USAFA) are enlisted grades. Read the nice contract all cadets are required to sign:

If you want to enter into the contract that follows, you must read and understand all of its terms and conditions. If you decide to accept these terms and conditions, you will sign the contract. You will also be administered an oath of enlistment and you will sign the Enlistment/Reenlistment Document, Armed Forces of the United States this document. You will receive a copy of each document. Keep the copies of the documents with your important papers.

and

Enlistment/Basic Military Service Obligation (MSO) - As a prerequisite for membership in the AFROTC program, I will enlist in the USAFR, incurring a basic MSO of eight (8)years from the date of my enlistment, during which time I will be assigned to the Obligated Reserve Section of the Individual Ready
Reserve.

Where is the confusion? I did ROTC and know that cadets are required to enlist in their branch when they sign their contracts. That is why the Army call it SIMULTANEOUS Membership Program (SMP) when a person is both in ROTC as a cadet and in a reserve unit like the Guard or Army Reserves.

[Ned]

Guys,

Many US armed forces cadets sign enlistment contracts (like the last two years of Army ROTC, for example), but not all cadets do.  Example:  Cadets in JROTC do not sign enlistment contracts, nor do cadets in the first two years of Army ROTC (unless under scholarship).

By definition, officer trainees at the various OCS-type program are enlisted folks, but they are normally referred to as "candidates" not "Cadets".

I don't know how they do it at the academies.

Accordingly, whether or not "cadet" is an "enlisted grade" is probably not as simple as knowing whether a given cadet has signed an enlistment contract with Uncle Sam.

Ned Lee
Affiliated with CP for a long, long time.

[gallagheria]

This is not about JROTC cadets.

I am about to use Army vernacular, because I am most familiar with it (but all the services are the same as far as this is concerned--each using their own terminology). Now stay with me here. Nonscholarship ROTC cadets under the first two years are not truly cadets, but merely students enrolled in military science. All cadets who continue on to MS-III (unless they are at one of the six Senior Military Colleges) are required by law and regulation to enlist in the United States Army Reserve (Control Group). However, even though this is not the subject here, they are not subject to the UCMJ, just like National Guard soldiers under Title 32 or SAD (which is 99% of the time unless deployed overseas) are not. Only Academy cadets or midshipmen are subject to the UCMJ. However, BOTH groups of cadets, ROTC and USMA, are required to enlist.

Even nonscholarship cadets must enlist. In fact, scholarship cadets are barred from being simultaneously enlisted in the Guard or Army Reserves when they accept a scholarship and must be transferred over to the United States Army Reserve (Control Group), unless it is a Guaranteed Reserve scholarship. However, nonscholarship cadets must enlist in the USAR (Control Group) and are eligible then to enlist simultaneously in the Guard or Reserves and thus be in the SMP. AR 145-1

Except as provided in paragraph 3–17, enlistment in the USAR with assignment to USAR Control Group (ROTC) is a requirement for enrollment in the advanced course or in the scholarship program. Such enlistment will be made in
the grade of cadet. Cadets will retain this grade as an enlisted grade in the USAR (separate from any grade held in the corps of cadets at the school) regardless of any prior military service performed or grade advancement policies applicable to enlisted status.

[Cecil DP]

Historically, a Cadet was an officer in training.  Think Midshipman as well, living in the grey area between Enlisted and Officer, more analogous to a Warrant Officer.

Yes, cadets are officers in training, but they are enlisted. All cadets, AFROTC or USAFA, are enlisted. Same with all the services, whether cadets or midshipmen, ROTC or Academy. Same thing with the various officer candidates. Read that nice little contract they all sign. By law and regulation all cadets enlist for 8 years in either the reserve or regular component of their branch of the military when they contract. If they commission, they are then appointed, but otherwise owe the military either additional enlisted time or some money, depending on circumstances.

An Officer candidate whether in ROTC or the academies are not enlisted. as stated above they are officer candidates. If they were enlisted their time in Officer training would be considered for longevity or time in service. It is not. Unless they had prior service their time in service begins on the day they raise their hand and get sworn in as Officers.

[MIKE]

This is drifting.

[JayT]

Here's what it comes down to.

We can't even get all of our cadets in proper uniforms. I would much rather see every cadet get issued a light weight blue jacket and an M65 before we do anymore uniform changes.

but I digress that issue.

A new style enlisted jacket cost about a hundred bucks. An officer style costs about twice that.

Officer shoulder boards can be worn on both, plus the old style jacket.

There's no reason to change the system, or the insignia, or the boards.

[Falshrmjgr]

referencing West Point Cadets:  (from www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r350_18.pdf

Section II
STATUS OF CADETS AND MILITARY COURTESY
3–8. Status
a. Under existing law (10 USC 3075), cadets are included in the
composition of the Regular Army. Their legal status is that of a
subordinate officer, entitled in all possible circumstances to certain
of the legal rights appertaining to the condition of officers of the
Army as distinguished from noncommissioned officers.Their mili-
tary rank is above that of enlisted personnel, but below that of
commissioned or warrant officers (AR 600–20).
b. While serving in leadership positions in the chain of com-
mand, cadets are authorized to issue appropriate orders to subordi-
nates. Violations of such lawful orders normally will constitute an
offense under UCMJ. As persons subject to UCMJ, cadets may
prefer charges against other persons subject to the Code.
c. Socially, cadets will be treated as junior officers, sharing fully
in the normal social and recreational opportunities available to offi-
cers of the command. Cadets should live in BOQs and should be
extended free guest privileges in officers' open messes.Existing reg-
ulations do not preclude cadets' drinking alcoholic beverages; how-
ever, cadets will conform to post regulations and State laws.

Very different from an ROTC Cadet's status.

Ok I'll shut up now

[adamblank]

My quick thought on the overall issue is that shoulder boards are more trouble than they are worth.  On the positive note they have heritage (which in and of itself is neither good or bad) which I think in this case is very positive.  However, they are not made for the Air Force service coat, and would work better on the enlisted coat.  I do feel as though their blue epaulets on an officer coat would be the best solution (phased-in of course).  I feel that the cost of the coat would be offset by buying typically of two sets of boards and the large vs small rank.  Of course it is not tremendous amounts of money so again that isn't the strongest argument in the world.

On the enlisted/officer cadet USAFA/AFROTC side note.  When you attend an academy and/or accept an ROTC scholarship you "enlist" in the inactive reserve.  This means that if you don't fulfill your contract the commander can opt to have you serve enlisted time.  Other than that, there is no other enlisted tie.  Cadets has been defined as someone seeking a commission.  More relevant though, cadets do wear officer uniform items because they typically fill that definition.

Of course, in the end it comes down to opinion.

[Ned]

This is not about JROTC cadets.

Of course not.

Because they don't fit your argument. 

But they are a recognized cadet program of the United States armed forces, and defined by official regulations as "cadets."  See AR 145-2.  Oddly enough, both JROTC and senior ROTC programs are run by the US Army Cadet Command.

Nonscholarship ROTC cadets under the first two years are not truly cadets, but merely students enrolled in military science.

Really?

That would be news at pretty much any ROTC detachment in the country. 

MS Is and IIs in the Basic Course dress in Army uniforms, learn and perform military drill and ceremonies, take the APFT, learn about leadership and weapons systems, and could even spend four weeks on active duty in the Leader's Training Course.

As cadets.

The ARs say they are cadets, who are you to dispute that?

Their status contradicts your position that "all cadets are enlisted."

Which is plainly not true.

All cadets who continue on to MS-III (unless they are at one of the six Senior Military Colleges) are required by law and regulation to enlist in the United States Army Reserve (Control Group). However, even though this is not the subject here, they are not subject to the UCMJ, just like National Guard soldiers under Title 32 or SAD (which is 99% of the time unless deployed overseas) are not. Only Academy cadets or midshipmen are subject to the UCMJ. However, BOTH groups of cadets, ROTC and USMA, are required to enlist.

True enough.  As we have said, many cadets are serving under a contract of enlistment.

Many are not.

Whether they have signed an enlistment contract just seems to be unrelated to the question of whether "cadet" is an "enlisted grade."

It is worth remembering that not all that long ago, most "enlisted soldiers" in the Army had never actually signed enlistment contracts.

They were drafted.

Ned Lee
Former SMP Cadet
Retired ARNG Infantry Officer