Reverse Flag

[addo1]

  More links.    
All kinds of reverse flags:
http://www.soldiercity.com/product-exec/product_id/11645

http://www.thehock.com/shop/?keywords=reverse+flag&match_criteria=all&shop=1&cart=397206

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=reverse+flag

http://www.uniformnametape.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=11&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=flag

... And SO many more... Here is a article concerning the reversed flag:

http://www.marlowwhite.com/faq-why-is-the-flag-patch-reversed.html

Some example pictures are attached below.  

[Hawk200]

Then the USPS and many LE need to know that. . . .

Unfortunately, yes, there are tons of instances of the U.S. flag patch being worn inappropriately.  I've seen it on police, security guards, firemen and EMTs.  It's not an intentional disrespect of the U.S. flag, just an ignorance of the laws and flag etiquette by those who prescribe their uniforms.

Most people don't know it, but it's written into US Code.

There have been some other major oops in the past. During the G8 summit in Georgia a few years ago, someone lowered the US Flag to half staff, and left the other nations flags flying at full staff. One of the individuals associated with law enforcement stopped in and explained that it was not only seriously inappropriate, but a violation of US Code. The remaining flags were lowered ASAP.

Left shoulder/sleeve = "normal" flag. 
Right shoulder/sleeve = "reverse" flag.

Sometimes, the flag variations have been referred to as "left hand" or "right hand" flags. If a flag held in front of you with the blue field up has the blue field on the left side, it's a "left hand" flag, and would go on that shoulder. The "right hand" flag is figured the same way.

There have been people that have worn subdued flags in OD, tan, and subdued colors. These are not officially recognized flags under US Code, and at present are not authorized to be worn on military uniforms. Officially, I don't even know if an IR flag would be considered legitimate in any manner than identifying a specific nation when utilized as "friend or foe". I've seen the IR flags in various color schemes as well.

Another point as well: For military wear, it's supposed to have a gold border to it. There have been discussions, argument, disagreements, even outright fights about it, but currently it is required to be configured that way for military wear.

[a2capt]

Reasons include:
(Now, of course, wing patches are optional on the field uniforms too).

..and thats actually a per-wing decision. CAWG decided not to have them removed but for a while there during all these uniform change marathons, we had flight leaders on the cadet side keeping up with it all, and they had all those patches off by the meeting after the news hit, some even that evening they found out. .. only to have to put them back.

They have been a lot more careful with uniform changes now. .. waiting for policy letters to come forth.

[MIKE]

..and thats actually a per-wing decision. CAWG decided not to have them removed but for a while there during all these uniform change marathons, we had flight leaders on the cadet side keeping up with it all, and they had all those patches off by the meeting after the news hit, some even that evening they found out. .. only to have to put them back.

And they get such authority from where exactly?  It didn't say wings could mandate wear when they were made optional.

[JC004]

..and thats actually a per-wing decision. CAWG decided not to have them removed but for a while there during all these uniform change marathons, we had flight leaders on the cadet side keeping up with it all, and they had all those patches off by the meeting after the news hit, some even that evening they found out. .. only to have to put them back.

And they get such authority from where exactly?  It didn't say wings could mandate wear when they were made optional.

In the case of cadets, if they mandate wear of the wing patch, don't they gotta buy 'em?     Regs are regs.   :angel:

[Eagle400]

And they get such authority from where exactly?  It didn't say wings could mandate wear when they were made optional.

And thus the problem of many CAP wings having implemented an inappropriate and contradictory order, which is still being enforced.  (The order being the mandatory wear of the wing patch on the BDU).   

National needs ensure that this order is rescinded and the new regulation on wing patches is properly enforced.   

[afgeo4]

The main reason for subdued flags not being recognized is the fact that colors cannot be identified properly and since many nations have VERY similar flags where the only differences are the colors, the flags may be mistaken. The US flag is very particular in design and although some flags may resemble it in some ways (stripes and stars), it is easily identifiable, even without color, but... rules are rules and yes, the subdued flags don't really count, but the main purpose of the flag is identification of friendly forces by friendly forces and I think everyone who needs to be able to identify us, can do so even with a subdued flag.

[cnitas]

... and I think everyone who needs to be able to identify us, can do so even with a subdued flag.

Or with no flag at all...

[SARMedTech]

I dont really understand all the uproar. Wear the flag, wear it appropriately and conformance with USC and CAPRs and be proud of it.

In IMERT, as well as many other organizations, it is not called a reverse flag. Its often called a "stars forward flag." I know there has been talk about only the Army wearing it this way, but thats really not the case. As I stated in some other posts, I have seen it on the sleeve on USCG Rescue Swimmers dry suits. One of my EMS uniforms wear the stars front as does the IMERT black or khaki BDUs. I have heard some rumors of us going to IR visible flags though for what I couldnt tell you. We dont do war zones, so...Im just proud to be wearing my countrys colors and serving my fellow citizens so Im not all too concerned about the direction the stars on Old Glory face. YMMV.

[gallagheria]

There have been people that have worn subdued flags in OD, tan, and subdued colors. These are not officially recognized flags under US Code, and at present are not authorized to be worn on military uniforms. Officially, I don't even know if an IR flag would be considered legitimate in any manner than identifying a specific nation when utilized as "friend or foe". I've seen the IR flags in various color schemes as well.

These flags are perfectly legitimate. The President is commander in chief of the Armed Forces and the Flag Code specifically states that he may change any reg and make any exception to the Flag Code that he desires. Therefore, as the commander in chief who ultimately commands all military forces and is responsible for all regulation in the various components,  there is nothing wrong with the military's use of an IR or subdued flag. 4 USC 10:

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.

[Hawk200]

There have been people that have worn subdued flags in OD, tan, and subdued colors. These are not officially recognized flags under US Code, and at present are not authorized to be worn on military uniforms. Officially, I don't even know if an IR flag would be considered legitimate in any manner than identifying a specific nation when utilized as "friend or foe". I've seen the IR flags in various color schemes as well.

These flags are perfectly legitimate. The President is commander in chief of the Armed Forces and the Flag Code specifically states that he may change any reg and make any exception to the Flag Code that he desires. Therefore, as the commander in chief who ultimately commands all military forces and is responsible for all regulation in the various components,  there is nothing wrong with the military's use of an IR or subdued flag. 4 USC 10:

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.

Yes, the C in C has that option. The thing is that he hasn't used it. Just because he has the option does not mean that a military individual is authorized to wear it at their pleasure. And if the President made that decision, there would be a DOD directive indicating that it authorized for wear. There isn't. The President has not said that subdued flags are acceptable, therefore they are not.

The IR flag has been worn, but has not been actually authorized. The Army jumped the gun by acquiring them, or requesting their manufacture.

[gallagheria]

That is not correct. The Army G-1 has amended AR 670-1 to read:

THE U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA (FULL COLOR OR SUBDUED) IS WORN ON THE RIGHT SHOULDER POCKET FLAP OF THE ACU COAT. THE FLAG INSIGNIA IS PLACED DIRECTLY ON TOP OF THE HOOK AND LOOP-FACED PAD ALREADY PROVIDED WITH THE ACU COAT SHOULDER POCKET FLAP. THE SUBDUED U.S. FLAG INSIGNIA IS WORN AS DIRECTED BY THE COMMANDER UNDER TACTICAL OR FIELD CONDITIONS ONLY.

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/uniform/docs/ALARACT%20Message%20164%206%20Sep%2006.pdf
As an Army regulation, this clearly is within the scope of the law since the commander in chief, as we mentioned above, has delegated this power down to the secretary of the Army and other services to design the uniforms.

[mikeylikey]

^  Now we are getting into "technical waters".  He (the President) may have delegated it down, but the LAW clearly states there needs to be a proclamation from the President.  There has never been such proclamation.

[SARMedTech]

While we may be getting into practical waters, subdued and IR flags are currently being worn by our men and women in the middle east, There they each serve a specific purpose. Unfortunately, the purpose of the subdued is to be able to follow the Geneva Conventions which state (paraphrased) that the combatant shall be considered a combatant when he is a uniformed war fighter wearing the flag of his country. So the subdued allows this without something that sticks out and acts as a target. Of course the IR serves the purpose of helping the warfighter not to get shot in the dark. And of course SWAT teams and the like have been wearing black and grey subdued flags for years, though perhaps they arent as concerned with the USC governing its useage. I know the Correction's officers in my county wear the black and grey and one of the EMS agencies wears a subdued version of some sort, that as far as I can tell, has no practical purpose. Then there is the fire department that I will soon be joining as an EMT/Firefighter II, who wears a huge flag on the side of red helmets. Whats interesting is that so many folks are willing to sacrifice the color of the flag while preserving the pattern, when both can be seen as having equal importance. In fact, the idea that the "red white and blue" color scheme is used outside the flag would seem to indicate that the color is often more important to certain individuals that the pattern of stars and stripes. YMMV.

[mikeylikey]

Unfortunately, the purpose of the subdued is to be able to follow the Geneva Conventions which state (paraphrased) that the combatant shall be considered a combatant when he is a uniformed war fighter wearing the flag of his country.

Really.....I guess I should go back and read the GC, as I don't recall the mandating flag wear in military conflicts.  I just remember the clause about wearing your countries uniform.

[SARMedTech]

  More links.     
All kinds of reverse flags:
http://www.soldiercity.com/product-exec/product_id/11645

http://www.thehock.com/shop/?keywords=reverse+flag&match_criteria=all&shop=1&cart=397206

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=reverse+flag

http://www.uniformnametape.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=11&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=flag

... And SO many more... Here is a article concerning the reversed flag:

http://www.marlowwhite.com/faq-why-is-the-flag-patch-reversed.html

Some example pictures are attached below.   

My understanding is that the flag patch pictured second here would not be acceptable on a military uniform due to its white border. Which makes one wonder how the subdued flags could be used. Just another 2 cents.

[hatentx]

the subdued flag has its place in th combat areana.  Although CAP doesnt have this option I dont see if it could help as well possible.  I know the IR Flag is warn so you can tell who the good guys are the friendly guys and and the bad guys.  I can attest to standing on a guard tower and a few hundred meters away you see a small group sneeking around at night.  Notice they have weapon but cant get a possitive ID.  Through up my NOD and there i can see this gleaming US Flag.  Our Pilots also do the same thing.  Before firing on a close air support mission the pilots search to see which side is which and they are able to see by the flags as well.  There are other things that also give it away but that is a dead give away for the guys in the air.  I can see possible the same use for CAP in the fact of something more to be seen if for some reson you are now the one lost in a SAR mission or other type instances. 

After reading this thread though my question in this.  Are you Mad about wearing the  Flag on the Uniform or are you mad about HQ not issuing a good set of orders?  I have heard the comparison to the army and our reason for wearing it is purly tactical and helpful in a joint country environment.  It use to be just the Soldiers that were deplyed worn the Flag but now that we are a country at war and going to be so for a while it was authorised for all Army SM to wear the flag.  If it is about wearing the Flag i see an issue if you are in a military Aux.  But if it is about HQ not being on the ball remimber your pay them money and you have the right to demand for things to be better.  there is a chain of command and there is a way to get things done.  If the guy above you doent care about fixing the problem the go to the next.  If HQ is the problem there must be someone on the Air Force side that the chain the goes up to.  This is the way it would be handled in the military.

[cnitas]

Since i am the one who mentioned taking off the flag, I suppose I will respond. 
I think you guys are missing the point.  It is not that anyone does not like the flag, or has some problem wearing a flag on a uniform. 

The issue is that we are the AIR FORCE aux, not a random 'military' aux.  We derive our uniforms from the AIR FORCE, not the Army, or any other service. 

When we change our uniform insignia, in my opinion, we should attempt to mirror the Air Force as much as possible.  Since the Air Force does not wear the flag on BDUs, and CAP has no operations outside of the USA,  this change seems to take us further from the Air Force and is unnecessary.

In that same vein, the Wing patch change was IMO a very good change. 

Now, do I feel so strongly about this I am going to jump my squadron/Group/Wing commander and take it to a higher level...No Way!  The uniform change process is a whole other issue.

[Hawk200]

....The issue is that we are the AIR FORCE aux, not a random 'military' aux.  We derive our uniforms from the AIR FORCE, not the Army, or any other service. 

When we change our uniform insignia, in my opinion, we should attempt to mirror the Air Force as much as possible.  Since the Air Force does not wear the flag on BDUs, and CAP has no operations outside of the USA,  this change seems to take us further from the Air Force and is unnecessary.

In that same vein, the Wing patch change was IMO a very good change..... 

Agreed on mirroring the Air Force. I also think that the removal of the wing patch was a good idea, but if the idea was "one CAP" then why didn't a flag just replace the wing patch? We could have used flightsuit flag stocks, and not have different flags on different shoulders. It would also eliminate confusion.

Went to a commander's call two weekends ago, and two new seniors showed up in flightsuits wearing the flag on the right sleeve. Told them that it was incorrect, but they both told me: "That's how my squadron said to do it". People aren't keeping it straight as to which uniforms which flag applies to. I've been seeing the flag on the right side on a lot of flight clothing lately, and it's a problem. Consolidate to one flag on one arm across the board, and it should be easier to keep it straight.

I know people argue that we can use the Army standard flag that way, but left handed flags have always been readily available for the last three decades. It's not like we couldn't get them.

[afgeo4]

Unfortunately, the purpose of the subdued is to be able to follow the Geneva Conventions which state (paraphrased) that the combatant shall be considered a combatant when he is a uniformed war fighter wearing the flag of his country.

Really.....I guess I should go back and read the GC, as I don't recall the mandating flag wear in military conflicts.  I just remember the clause about wearing your countries uniform.

Many nations use the BDU print on their uniforms and many nations don't have their country's name on branch tapes or anywhere else. In such instances, a flag should be used to identify the uniform as one of such nation. Otherwise, it isn't uniform, it is just camouflage clothing and the combatant may not be given POW status (as it often happens). Our troops wearing our flag assures that the uniform is identified as a uniform of our country, as you said previously.