Quote from: ♠1 on October 02, 2007, 04:24:04 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 02, 2007, 04:17:38 AMYes, I do see the connection quite clearly.

And in case you're wondering Major Carrales, it has nothing to do with personal beliefs.  I love my country and the American flag.  I just feel that CAP needs to mirror the Air Force as closely as possible when it comes to uniforms, and that means no flag patch on the BDU.

By the way, the connection I was making had to do with CAP adopting Air Force uniform items and breaking away from Army uniform items.     

No need to be defensive, write clearly and stand for what you belief in.  Just try not to be the same "one note Charlie."

Here's a visual representation of why the current CAP cadet officer insignia doesn't fit the Air Force cadet rank structure. 







As you may have noticed, both the CAP and AFJROTC cadet airman insignia look similar to each other.

However, the similarities disappear when we examine the CAP and AFJROTC cadet officer insignias:   







However, there are similarities with the Army JROTC Cadet Officer insignia: 



But the problem is, CAP is the USAF Auxiliary - not the U.S. Army Auxiliary.  Therefore, it makes more sense for CAP cadet officers to wear the same cadet officer insignia as AFJROTC. 

Well, then I guess we should just do away with the CAP Cadet Program and shuffle people into AFJROTC.  WRONG!!!

If you ask me the AFJROTC ranks are "cartoony," almost a caricature of USAF rank.  That is fine for them, but CAP has a much more rich history and traditions.

The CAP Officer Rank insignia is fine as it is.

See, first its a topic of ending Shoulder Board, next y'all want to flush things that have peen part of CAP for decades down the toilet.  Change is good, change for change sake is bad!!!

What happened to all of the "financial concerns" points people were making?  Changing to a new rank insignia will render purchases...millions of dollars of purchase...absolutely moot!

Leave it all as it is and pitch in to buy poor cadets their shoulder boards...a far better solution than throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

More truly needless spending for an ancillary issue.

^  I agree with the Major.  The Army actually stole their Cadet Officer Rank from CAP.  We had it first.  I do prefer theirs better though, all shiny and smooth!

I believe the AFJROTC cadet officer rank is modelled on that of the USAF Academy....whose cadet officer rank, as far as I can see, is a stylized, modernized version of West Point's cadet officer ranks....both of which are confusing and uninformative, since they resemble nothing as much as NCO stripes.

The pips and diamonds are visually simple to interpret, and should be maintained.

Perhaps the academies should follow the example of Army ROTC and 'borrow' from CAP!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 02, 2007, 01:26:34 PM
I believe the AFJROTC cadet officer rank is modelled on that of the USAF Academy....

The USAFA uses these
(CLICK HERE)

EXAMPLE: C/2d Lt

The USAFA insignia reminds me of the rank system used in origfinal Star Trek (they also made it up as they went along!)...really, USAFA grades look like hieroglyphics!

^No really Cadet Second Class Group Superintendent I didn't realize it was you, HONESTLY!

Personally, I'm not pleased with the cost of the shoulder boards, my last pair cost me $27, that was just after it was $18.  As for them not being required, or the service jacket for that matter, there is a GREAT deal of visual influence that cadets have with eachother.  Example Cadet Snuffy at an activity sees Cadet Smith ([darn] I've read the old leadership books too much) in his officer new style service jacket with boards and say "hey mom/dad/bank, Cadet Smith looks COOL! I wanna look like that, buy me that jacket and boards so I can look cool too!"

As for the cadet officer insignia (hmm, topic drift anyone?), are you so certain that CAP copied AFJROTC with their enlisted insignia, or was it the other way around?  The USAF Academy insignia, minus the cloud ground and horizon and the random stuff near the top, looks more like AFROTC and Navy insignia.

At the 1979 ATCFC (as AETC-FC was called then) at Mather AFB (as it was back then), the topic of the "new" metal ranks came up. One of the cadets from CAWG said "We're sorry. Our CAC submitted that design for cloth stripes, and National stole it."

To post "on topic", shoulderboards were worn on all the blue uniforms - "1550's" and "Class A's" as they were informally called then.

Actually, the CAP cadet enlisted stripes are closer to Air Force stripes than AFJROTC stripes. WIWAC, the stripes WERE Air Force stripes with the shield affixed to cover the star.

Quote from: ♠1 on October 02, 2007, 04:10:05 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on October 02, 2007, 02:29:50 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on October 02, 2007, 02:29:50 AMI say keep it because it's been a tradition for so long.

QuoteJust because it's been a tradition for so long doesn't mean it shouldn't change.   

Traditions should change when they conflict with the mission. Tradition for itself is nothing.

And thank God some traditions do change. When the Cadet officer shoulder boards were introduced, we wore the bus driver hat with a white band around it and the EM cadet cap badge as the hat badge, It was called the "Good Humor" hat, presumably because people laughed at it.

Since everyone is offering their opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, I will offer mine. Leave it alone.  It won't bring us closer to the USAF, that problem runs much deeper than cosmetic changes. It would cost cadets a lot of money and it is already recognized. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Like I said just another opinion.

Quote from: dogboy on October 02, 2007, 11:03:34 PM
And thank God some traditions do change. When the Cadet officer shoulder boards were introduced, we wore the bus driver hat with a white band around it and the EM cadet cap badge as the hat badge, It was called the "Good Humor" hat, presumably because people laughed at it.

I don't recall it being called a "Good Humor" hat or anyone laughing. That may have been your experience but not mine.  I wore one till the novelty wore off and then went back to my flight cap. Then as now they were a pain to wear.

Well, here's another idea: leave the CAP cadet ranks the way they are but get rid of the shoulderboards.  That would end up saving folks money without CAP having to pay any money for new cadet officer ranks.

I say have cadets wear the shoulder marks on the service dress coat just like the officers do.  It would look a lot less gawdy and save folks money.        

Guys.

Not every cadet owns an officers style jacket.

Shoulderboards can be worn on enlisted style jackets.

There's no reason to get ride of the shoulderboards.

The cadet grade insignia also follows the pattern that is used in some European countries.  The British officer rank insignia has the "one pip, two pip, three pip" insignia for company grade officers and then follows the one, two, three combination of insignia for field grade officers also. 

I think the cadet rank insignia is a good tradition and doesn't look as goofy as the AFJROTC officer insignia. 

BTW, I hated the white band around my service cap WIWAC.

Just my $.02.  I was a c/MAJ in AFJROTC before I ever joined CAP as a Cadet, and thought the CAP Cadet Stuff made me look like a Mexican Field Marshall.

Later, as an Army ROTC cadet I wore the pips that people seem to dislike.

IMHO, given the rate of promotion, anything other than Pin-on Rank is silly.

Observations 1 & 2:

1)  While CAP is NOT turning out "Commissioned Officers" per se, there is a certain value to setting an organizational expectation that our cadets will continue to pursue commissions to best apply the leadership skills that they have learned.  As such (and the traditional concept of the word CADET) they should generally be viewed as OFFICER Trainees.  As such, there is no need for EM Versions of the uniforms.  In fact, it sends the wrong message, ie...  that Cadet NCO's are NCO's.  They are Not.  They are Cadets first, and that is where the emphasis should lie.  We "borrow" Enlisted & Officer Grades as a convenience to distinguish differing levels of achievement, and they could as easily be replaced by a simple structure of "Cadet nth Class to Cadet 1st Class" Ala the service academies.  However, there IS value in mirroring AD Ranks structures for educational purposes.

2)  Army ROTC Cadets and West Point Cadets, while serving with the active forces (CTLT, Airborne School, etc...) DO NOT wear their "Rank".  They wear a generic insignia of rank for Cadet.  As an example, while doing ROTC stuff in ROTC land I wore the Diamond of c/MAJ.  But while serving with my SMP Unit during Drill, I wore a Single PIP (C/2LT) because that is the insignia for Cadet.  (Sorry, too lazy too look up the Reg on that.)  It seems to me counter productive for the goal of Active Force integration to expect active duty members of the Armed Forces to deal with the vagaries of cadet rank structure.  While I understand that adopting a similar convention for CAP might offend those enamored with uniform "bling", I think it would be helpful to communicate the proper humility when dealing with the active force.

Jaeger,

You make the assumption that CAP is intergrated into the USAF.  While this often happens, to some degree, with the USCGAux and their motherservice, it is not so for CAP.

CAP is a separate entity, thus, these confusions should not (and do not) exist.  A CAP Captain only has bearing on CAP matters, nothing more and nothing less.

"Cadet NCOs" only pretain to CAP related matters.

There should be respect for the Active Duty ranks, however,  "proper humility" is unnecessary since we are not "inferior" to them.  We aren't even parallel, we are a whole 'nother organization with a whole different standard.

If you feel inferior to them, then you will be inferior.  By all means, respect is key...but I don't think CAP personnel, even cadets, need to be "groveling" at the feet of the active duty force.

Now, if congress designates CAP as somehow a "connected" support structure to the USAF (basically helper "Airmen") that is a different story.

Be more proud of what we are, then ashamed of what we are not!

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 03, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
Jaeger,

You make the assumption that CAP is intergrated into the USAF.  While this often happens, to some degree, with the USCGAux and their motherservice, it is not so for CAP.

CAP is a separate entity, thus, these confusions should not (and do not) exist.  A CAP Captain only has bearing on CAP matters, nothing more and nothing less.

"Cadet NCOs" only pretain to CAP related matters.

There should be respect for the Active Duty ranks, however,  "proper humility" is unnecessary since we are not "inferior" to them.  We aren't even parallel, we are a whole 'nother organization with a whole different standard.

If you feel inferior to them, then you will be inferior.  By all means, respect is key...but I don't think CAP personnel, even cadets, need to be "groveling" at the feet of the active duty force.

Now, if congress designates CAP as somehow a "connected" support structure to the USAF (basically helper "Airmen") that is a different story.

Be more proud of what we are, then ashamed of what we are not!

I didn't make any assumption, and my intent was not to delve into the legalities of our status vis-a-vis the Air Force, but rather to point out that perception is important.  Further, I did not, and would not use the term grovel unless you would consider showing proper military courtesy as groveling.

For the very same reason that CAP does not authorize the wear of the Brown A2 Flyer's Jacket, we should consider that CAP Cadet's Uniforms and the message that they send are real.  CAP Cadets are given opportunities to interact with the Air Force that are special.  In light of that courtesy, it would seem appropriate to present an appearance that says that they are in an organizational that is professional and in alignment with the Military, and NOT present an appearance that says, "we're an

Quotewhole 'nother organization

and we can do whatever we want."

On a personal note, I spent 2 years as an SMP Cadet with the California National Guard.  Now, I could have attended my unit's dining in wearing the drawer full of ROTC Ribbons I was issued, and I would have received nothing but disdain.  But by wearing simply the ribbons I had been issued in the Army, I was treated as a member of the unit, and not some sort of unwelcome guest.

So please, next time try to avoid twisting my comments into a strawman that is easily attacked.  I said nothing about ashamed, nor did I say anything about not being proud of what we are.  That is, in fact, exactly what I am trying to say.  Our cadets should derive that pride from their real status of being CADETS (a recognized status in the military) versus some sort of pseudo-NCO/Officer.  They are Cadets, and some of the best trained, bright intelligent young people that America has to offer.  They are given advanced promotion on joining the military due to the experiences that they have had, the potential they possess, and the training they have received.  When you consider this, they are in fact, trainees.

(I did not comment on Senior Member rank, because frankly there is very little wrong with it other than the advancement to Second Lieutenant is too quick and easy.  My experience has been that Senior Officers in CAP has the skill and experience generally commensurate with their active duty counterparts, but that CAP junior officers should have a higher hurdle before they are "commissioned."  But that, I recognize, is my own personal prejudice.)

/Jaeger