Why are Cadet Crossover Members so Rare?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, October 11, 2012, 05:00:29 PM

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jimmydeanno

I have a bunch of A1C, SrA types in my unit.  At times, I want to smack them and tell them to grow up.  Some are mature and are fine, but the dorm rat just out of tech school group still has A LOT of growing up to do.  That isn't to say that they aren't adults, but there is still a lot of work that can be done.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

MSG Mac

Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

NC Hokie

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 11, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.

Maybe the SDA program for cadet officers is intended to be their introduction to the dark side.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Fubar

Quote from: NC Hokie on December 11, 2012, 06:55:22 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 11, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.

Maybe the SDA program for cadet officers is intended to be their introduction to the dark side.

I believe it is, or it certainly could serve as one. Unfortunately the "internship" portion seems to be more or less skipped over. There are a million excuses , it's a cadet-only squadron who doesn't have any senior members fulfilling the duties being studied, the seniors meet on a different night, the needed senior member isn't available (or worse, avoids cadets). It's shame, I think the SDA program could be valuable in a cadet's progression to senior member.

okeecap

I know as a cross over member myself it is rare.  When I was under 21 nobody I knew at my squadron in Georgia at the time had a clue what to do with me.  I transitioned at 18 and was sort of promoted to FO after level one, meaning I got the ranks and ceremony but never the papers.  At my old squadron in GA I was told by a member who was in CAP since the dawn of time that he had not really seen it.  I think that if there were some sort of transition course that the amount of cadet to senior would increase.

Paul_AK

If you look to actively recruit Seniors from the Cadet ranks I would say focus on career progression. In any transition course I would say look at what they are interested in and show them how staying on as a Senior could keep that rolling. The few people I have run into who have started out as Cadets have all seemed to have that in mind. Whether they liked the Aerospace education portion or maybe enjoyed mentoring, if they can can somehow keep that focus you will have a few more then you do now.

Now some of that may already be happening, I have been out of the game for a couple of years now, after all. But all I know is my transition was quite the learning curve as I was not the best Cadet I could have been.
Paul M. McBride
TSgt, 176 SFS, AKANG
1st Lt, AK CAP
        
Earhart #13376

Al Sayre

While I don't see a lot of members who cross over, there seems to be a substantial number who return later in life...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Has been

The conversation has been on track. My experence turning senior was 30 years ago but the story is still the same.

The cadets treat you as a senior and the seniors treat you like a cadet. You have no friends in the unit. Since some of CAP's pay is social that hurts. If you luck out and can find a senior to mentor/befriend you (invite you to the senior social events like coffee after the meeting.) you are lucky. Often you have more time in the program than many seniors in the unit. Since many cadets join in a group and tend to be about the same age, if you can get a buddy to come over at the same time it helps.

Many cadet go off to college or the military in that age group. It is hard to attend your local meeting when college is 500 miles away. Give them the contact info for the local unit and give the local unit thier contact info. Keep them active while they are away. Keep them on the mailing list, in touch through social media, give them a reason to attend when they are home. (Holiday Party or class to give or ...) This can also work if they start a new life after college.

Slowly give them recognition for the the things they did in the cadet program. They get to skip Level 1, the get a rating in a speicalty track, they may get to skip other PD. They get to carry over some ribbons, they get to do some things (like drive the van) they could not do as a cadet, they get to carry over some ES quals... If they get stroked every month to six weeks there is a reason to come to meetings. Even if they are comming just to do the paperwork that meeting they are developing the habbit of comming, acting like a senior and making friends. Pavlov was right.

Many cadets have no idea what the seniors do and assume it is nothing or boaring. (Ok some times it is). Sometimes they see seniors a people who don't know what they are taliking about. Sometimes that is true and sometimes that is the cadets limited point of view. So there is no reason to "come to the dark side."  Start their transition about 6 months before they have to turn senior. Give them a project (they have always wanted to do or nobody has done before), task, duty that is usualy done by a senior but not the complete authority. They can't sign this or authorize that. The task should end after they have turned senior. It acts as a bridge. Have them assist a senior on a project/department other than a cadet thing. it broadens thier perspective, helps them make friends with a senior, changes thier focus, they peek behind the vail an see what seniors do, that things that make the cadet program don't magicaly happen and that if they want to continue to help the cadet(s) program they have a role and can make a difference,  but they need to be a senior to do it.  Then they have a reason to choose to come over to the senior side.

Have them mentor a new senior member. You can even start this with a 19 or 20 year old cadet officer. But put limits on them, "after all they are still a cadet and have to show respect for seniors".  Then when they turn senior the restrictions can be removed. That way turning senior is a step they took in order to accomplish a task. This also works if they just turned senior. You have replaced the cadets/flight with the new member. They are still in a leadership position.

I often see Cadet Commanders that become the Deputy for Cadets and that seldom works out. They never stop being cadet commander (and acting like it.) A break from being in authority in the cadet program helps a lot. They can be the AEO (for example) and still do classes or activites with the cadets but not in charge.

If you have a nearby unit (Which is easier in Nat Cap than WV) a change in unit helps. Everybody just sees them as a new senior member with experence and units are always glad for the help.



Private Investigator

Quote from: Al Sayre on December 15, 2012, 09:24:04 PM
While I don't see a lot of members who cross over, there seems to be a substantial number who return later in life...

+1 great reply.

At 21 most people have other, time consuming things to do. The Composite Squadrons I have been in has had very active Cadet Programs and the Senior side is really slow in comparison. All that 'gung ho' stuff you got in weekly doses is going to end at 21.

a2capt

Yes, I do see quite a few that return later in life, sometimes after kids are age-ready for the program, others due to retirement, but all the same. I've had the privilege of working with some all these years, in my unit. People who will put up with an amazing amount of flak from above who keep pounding along, to give every cadet a chance to be discover themselves and be something. .. and whether they know it or not, a few other senior members along the way, too. :)

umpirecali

+1 to has been.

You made a few suggestions about transitioning cadet into senior that i will ask my command about later in the year.  Fortunately our former DCC was as the squadron commander for 3 yrs and is a Lt Col who was a cadet many moons ago, so I think he'll have a great prospective for what works and what might be worth trying.
Capt Chris Cali, CAP
Deputy Commander
Deputy Commander for Cadets

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: umpirecali on December 17, 2012, 03:41:05 AM
+1 to has been.

You made a few suggestions about transitioning cadet into senior that i will ask my command about later in the year.  Fortunately our former DCC was as the squadron commander for 3 yrs and is a Lt Col who was a cadet many moons ago, so I think he'll have a great prospective for what works and what might be worth trying.

For me, now in perspective 5 months after rejoining fully active status, I never really 'left'. I was gone for college, but paid my dues, and kept in touch with the unit. The last two summers I arranged to drive down from the city to the unit with members who also lived in the city. While it was a pain (for them) to do that, they were helpful, and it was nice to visit. As soon as I finished college and moved back to the suburbs, I simply came back, full time. I think I missed one or two meetings so far, but overall I am glad to be back, and certainly am still adjusting (but also enjoying) working with cadets indirectly, and seeing the cadets at all levels do what I did. It brings back warm memories for me, and amazes me at the same time how much they can grow on their own in such a short time. I don't know all of them yet, but I already can tell those who shine and those who have potential. It will be great to see where all of these cadets go from here.

a2capt

We've had a few go off the school, though they've not kept the membership current, they've maintained communications with the unit and make appearances during visits home from school, filling in on their progress, relating to their experiences at CAP over the years and how it got them to where they were now.

They generally get a lot of interaction between the cadets which is fun to see. One year we had three go off to service academies, and just this last weekend at our color guard competition a prior Spaatz cadet, Westpoint graduate that I've seen in photos while sorting stuff for our website archive, came back with the intention of participating in Cadet Programs. He got out of the Army early due to downsizing. 

Generally, I think the outcome is positive when prior cadets return, that have gone active duty or to the academy, in uniform and with a presentation worked out.

See, he/she was one of you right here and now look.  Statistically it seems that the majority of the ones that do come back are military over non-military. IE, someone who went to college somewhere else.. seems like you never hear from them again.

Cool Mace

QuoteThe cadets treat you as a senior and the seniors treat you like a cadet.

This is a big problem from what I have seen. I witnessed it again at CLC not too long ago. Although not all seniors act this way towards the new transfers, it does happen a lot.

Another thing I have noticed. Most 21 year old who want to join are welcomed with open arms. While a transfer, who has been training in leadership his whole cadet career is told to take a back seat.
Why is this? "They need the separation." is always the answer I see. If seniors are properly mentoring those higher cadets, they should start learning the senior side of things at least a year out. Along with having a heavy involvement with what goes on with the senior program, and how things run on the other side of the fence.

You teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Just some interesting observations  from my side.  :)
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Eclipse

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2012, 02:55:10 PMYou teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Take time to separate themselves from the cadet program as a participant in it, and learn to become a senior member.

This is the most difficult lesson to learn - senior members are not, in any way, the peers of cadets.   That is not generally an issue for
new  21 year olds who were never in the program, but is a very real challenge for dark-siders who may well be members of the same
social group as those who are still cadets.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cool Mace

Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2012, 04:06:50 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2012, 02:55:10 PMYou teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Take time to separate themselves from the cadet program as a participant in it, and learn to become a senior member.

This is the most difficult lesson to learn - senior members are not, in any way, the peers of cadets.   That is not generally an issue for
new  21 year olds who were never in the program, but is a very real challenge for dark-siders who may well be members of the same
social group as those who are still cadets.

Again, if the mentoring and training are done like they are supposed to. They will already be studying the senior side of the program at least six months before the transfer.
A little trust and guidance can go a long way in this situation.

I've found that it's not the new transfer having a problem with it, but their peers. Seniors still see them as cadets, and cadets see them as seniors. Where are they to go?
Transfers need to make sure they have a good mentor in place to help with the process, and to stay away from the seniors who still see them as cadets.
The seniors who still see them as cadets give them more of a head ache then any amount of paper work, or reading through 39-1/CapTalk ever will.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Eclipse

#77
The flawed assumption is that someone under 21 is in any way a "peer" of an adult.  That's a harsh reality that people
in that age range don't like to hear, but it's simply a fact of life.

That doesn't mean they aren't valued members, sometimes the most technically informed and capable in the room on a given
subject, or that we should ignore their opinions out of hand, but experience is what makes adults, not a status change
on a membership card.  Believe me, I have reeled out plenty of "rope" in my time for older cadets and new dark-siders only
to realize it was too much, too soon. I've also seen several very serious situations where young people put in situations
where they weren't ready translated into consequences that were far-reaching outside the CAP multi-verse, thanks in part
to the actions of senior members who, themselves, never fully made the transition from cadet to senior.

This is really no different then when those with military experience insist that those without it simply "can't understand".
Until you've BTDT, you won't know what you don't know.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cool Mace

So do you think that cadets turning senior should be a case by case situation when it comes to how "hand on" they can be?
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Eclipse

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2012, 04:31:49 PM
So do you think that cadets turning senior should be a case by case situation when it comes to how "hand on" they can be?

FWIW, no.  That's essentially how its handled today, ad hoc and in some areas with no recognition of the problem,  let
alone any remediation or attention to it - in some units the seniors are so happy just to have another name on the senior
roster they lose sight of the potential risks.

I'd prefer to have new converts barred from CP staff appointments and other major interaction with cadets for a calendar year -
have them spend the time becoming senior members and then, if they are still interested, they can be considered for
staff appointments and other participation with cadets.  For starters it would keep those whose progression has stalled
but still want to be "in charge" from taking that route - it might also help encourage cadets to stay in the program.

I'd also be in favor of discussions that simply ended the cadet program at 18 for anyone not in Phase 4, and set
senior membership at 21 period.

"That Others May Zoom"