The World's Largest CAP History Library

[Smithsonia]

Soon, in about 2 weeks, Lt. Col. Mark Hess' Library will launch his CAP history website.

I'll post the address for you, here.

To say it is (or soon will be) large is to limit it to the extent of your imagination.
To say it is complete is to dissuade you from looking into your closet to get out your
CAP History and scan/copy/and send it to Mark.

So let me say that it is the work of one man: Mark Hess

Mark has been taken to the level of primal dedication. Loss of sleep and pounding his keyboard while
researching, scanning, line coding, worrying, thinking, writing, communicating, and hoping... that he has built
a thing worth YOUR time, is to give you sense of his life and his single mindedness
to this project. It has been over 14 months of doing. This is like serving on a RedCap, alone - for over a year.

He will save the lives of our best and countless good deeds, duties, biographies, and documents - long lost until now.

Mark's efforts have been Herculean. His capability has become Olympian. His site, while he admits
is imperfect is a work of love. Love is imperfect, always. However, there are many reasons to love.

One form - is to be loved yourself. Regarding this - Mark has never wanted fame, adoration, or even acknowledgment.
He just wanted to do the work. So he did.

Conversely, love can be a simple act of faith done for the good of another. We raise children
in this faith. We are in Civil Air Patrol in this faith. We hope to receive God's mercy through this faith.
This faith is all that Mark has. This faith produced his soon to come work.

I have been witness to this impending moment. I have been remote help but deeply interested in his work.
I can speak about Mark but I can never speak for Mark.

His website will speak for itself. Eventually it will have several million pages, several thousand pictures,
several hundred revelations.

The revelations are yours to discover for this will be a place to come and contemplate. This will be a place to open your eyes
and your mind.

This will be a place of intellectual edification and research. This will be a place to gain knowledge. This will be a place to devour, engourge
and revel. This will be a place to enrich and deepen your love of the Patrol.

May I urge you to add to this thread something that is not in the basic nature of Captalk... unabashed and raw encouragement for Mark
to finish and make this vision real. He is nearing the finish line. Raise your voice and cheer him on. Add to this thread.

Mark reads the threads on this site but doesn't participate. He's been busy!
He'd rather that you have the facts on which you can properly build opinions.
He believes there should be opinions of course. But, he's dedicated the last 14 months of no sleep nights, to add more facts.

[DakRadz]

Outstanding, sir!

This will not go unnoticed. I promise to use the materials to teach a history class to our cadets when the time comes.

I am proud to be a member of the same organization as Lt Col Hess.

GAWG does produce the cream of the crop, you know

:clap:

[BillB]

Radx is correct. I went by my supermarket awhile ago and sure enough in the dairy aisle was a goup of products from a Georgia dairy. SOUR Cream.

[DakRadz]

Radx is correct. I went by my supermarket awhile ago and sure enough in the dairy aisle was a goup of products from a Georgia dairy. SOUR Cream.

(vewy fuwny, mista)
I was referencing the fact that Lt Col Hess is GAWG....

Remember that Maj Shaw asked us to be encouraging and positive.

[vorter]

Radx is correct. I went by my supermarket awhile ago and sure enough in the dairy aisle was a goup of products from a Georgia dairy. SOUR Cream.

Indeed, don't even get me talking about those peaches heheh.

[BillB]

It would be nice if the web site had copies of the major requlations over the years posted. By this I mean the 30's, 35, 39, 50, 52, and 60 series. That would allow members to see how personnel matters, uniforms cadet programs and flying have changed over the years. PAOs might even find the old CAPM 190-1 of value.

[RiverAux]

Remember that Maj Shaw asked us to be encouraging and positive.

I'm positive that now I won't be the next CAP Historian of the Year

[Pylon]

Looking forward to the site!   :clap:

[BillB]

I vote for River Aux to be Historian of the year,-------1976

[JC004]

I was planning on trying to collect some photos, articles, etc. for the site when I have time.  I am seriously lacking in time right now and have a lot of crap going on.  I started this before because we were going to create a whole section on the PAWG web site dedicated to historical archives and such but the wing folks never came through with getting me access to the stuff.  It just kind of died on the vine with the items that I'd collected myself as all I had to work with, so I didn't go forward.     Nonetheless, there might be some interesting things that I could dig out.

[BillB]

Fifty-two Wing Historians, Eight Regional Historians, National Historian(s) Historical Foundation and little coordination among them. What do Wing Historians have in their files? Do they have items cataloged? Is there a National catalog of historical items from the Wings and Regions?
That seems to be the problem with a CAP history, there is no central archive of copies from the Wings. The Wings hold their material in storage with little access to members or other Historians. I doubt that each Wing Historian knows what is actually in all the files. A National effort seems to be needed to catalog and send the lists to Region, then to National. No telling what is hidden away. At the same time, how much history is hidden in members closets. For esample I have the full 1969 Florida Wing Encampment file including the hand written Junior Officer of the Days notes on walking the mascot dog stuck in a drawer. WQhat do you have that Wing needs copies of?

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^
Bill B;
This is one of the reasons for the new history website. The trouble with history is you must also be able to tell the future. You must save what you think will be important 20 - 30- 40 years from now. I swear, every time I throw something away, I need it 2 months later.

So computers, scanners, digital pictures, and a large server provides a relatively new solution. My point being is that the opening exhibits in this library will be impressive but incomplete. Inside desk drawers, buried in closets, and lost in basements are the true CAP legacies and heritage.

Little collections or single items of purity, gravity, and relevance - unknown. These items can be retained by their owners. BUT, the images need to go one place. We are lucky that members have hoarded these prizes. However, it is time to see the light of day once again. Hoarders need hoard no more. Hoarders unite. Hoarders produce. Hoarders come forward... soon there will be a place to
exhibit your precious collections. Mark Hess is preparing a place of appreciation and for some unique items... a place of adoration.

Frankly my wife will unwittingly appreciate this site if for no other reason that it'll make some sense of my basement full of "STUFF."

[tmoe]

Thank you, Mark, for your dedication and service! As a newly minted squadron historian, this will be invaluable to my work. Finish strong!
:clap:

[RiverAux]

Fifty-two Wing Historians, Eight Regional Historians, National Historian(s) Historical Foundation a

Your mistake there is thinking that there actually are historians in all those slots and the assumption that they are all actually doing the job. 

That seems to be the problem with a CAP history, there is no central archive of copies from the Wings.

Although the repository issue is a serious one, perhaps more damaging is the heinous record destruction system mandated by regulation that only gives lip service to retaining documents of historical interest, but gives no real guidance or procedures for doing this. 

That seems to be the problem with a CAP history, there is no central archive of copies from the Wings.

While we seemingly don't care about archiving records, we are real serious about archiving patches for some reason.  For them, there actually is a regulation saying where they need to go. 

And as far as a document repository, it CANNOT be a CAP operation.  It just cannot be done as a volunteer operation in the back of some warehouse.  It needs to be in a real climate controlled building staffed by professional archivists and librarians and open to the public.  CAP will never be able to fund that on its own, so we need to get someone else to take our stuff. 

Preferably, it would be the National Archives, but given our strange legal status that may or may not be possible.  The second best option would be an archive associated with one of the existing Air Force archives.  Failing that, a respectable archive associated with a university would be acceptable. 

[Smithsonia]

I took a Historians job thinking it was low priority, low stress, easy to do. Well, it is far from that. Mostly, CAP History has been intellectually compromised through time by Command, Aerospace Education, Public Affairs, bad historians, and even Moral Leadership. Moral Leadership? Yes!

Everyone has a good reason for the way they feel about our history.

Let me be extremely clear. These well meaning members are wrong. Independence from internal CAP politics are necessary for real history. A minor but perfect example is: In WW2 cigarette ads for Camels were used to sell the Civil Air Patrol, and tobacco - obviously. I have several of these adds. You can find these ads on-line. I've been asked to suppress this piece of history. I've been asked several times.

I really don't care much about this little piece of history, not hardly anything at all, it is only of passing interest to me. What is of extreme interest to me is the knee jerk and consistently reactive suppression.

To me the cover up is far worse than the advertisement.

Seniors representing Cadet Services, Command, AE, and Moral Leadership want these ads excised. In their program that is their right. In history it is not. I don't ring the bell but I don't un-ring it either. We have divergent but well meaning points of view. The trouble is, do this long enough, do this over and over, and eventually you have no idea what is true. You lose your bearings. You lose the trail. You've lost sight of home. You are ignorant and alone. You will make mistakes that have been made before. You've cooked your history books so long you are the Enron of the intellectual world. (Of course this is a slight exaggeration to make an editorial point) If you follow this route long enough you start self editing as you research. You begin not adding knowledge but policy.

I think that this is not the best way to handle History. I think people are starting to understand my point. I've always been surprised
that it was something I had to explain. To me it is as clear as sunshine. To me this is not a command decision. No more than the US President can ban a book.

The Army wants it's history unvarnished and based on the best scholarship. I've been told that the Air Force plays it a little fast and loose in this regard. I can't speak first hand about this proclivity.

I suppose we caught this "cold" from them... but I don't know. I can't do anything but let everyone see all of the research. Ask everyone to add to the research. To liberate the research. Then, if you find it compelling, reconfigure what you thought you knew. There isn't anything to be afraid of. It is just pictures and words. It is nothing more than facts and people. People sometimes get it wrong. And some times facts change. Sometimes there is more research and better scholarship. None of that should be suppressed. It should always be encouraged. I am not for treating our members like children. Even the members who are children. They are cadets. For instance, in the case of the smoking ads... we are trying to maneuver around the topic - by ignoring or denying the topic. Instead it could be a teaching moment. Proving that we have learned lessons.

I've had numerous discussions with fine members, who are also historians, men and women whom I love, respect, and appreciate. Scholarship will make better history. Intellectual rigor is the only true authority to which we should answer.

Regarding the new and upcoming website - I think you will find new things about Gil Robb Wilson, Jack Curry, the brand names of the Air Corps, Air Force and CAP. You'll have new heroes and heroines (Jackie Cochran was a big darn deal) You'll be prouder of the Civil Air Patrol than ever before. Not because everything it did was always right, but because it was persistent, indefatigable, relentless, adaptive, and gee-gosh-good.

I helped on the upcoming History Library not to rub noses in it. But, to do the best work I could. I think Mark Hess feels the same. I trust you will join in this project in that same spirit.

By the way. I understand that the launch date is being pushed back a week or two. Things aren't quite ready. Mid-Sept, I suppose.

[ZigZag911]

I agree with you, let's "tell it like it was"...that is how we can learn from mistakes as well as successes!

[tarheel gumby]

Ed, I agree with you 100%. I have always tried to look at the events and people in the context of the time period. That way I can try to understand, not just the what but the why as well. In my own research I have found that at least one squadron in this area had very serious command issues and a poor relationship with the airport that they met at. That means that I can at least be aware of potential issues that may come up in my research.
BTW I am very much looking forward to the launch of the web site.

[Parsifal]

A minor but perfect example is: In WW2 cigarette ads for Camels were used to sell the Civil Air Patrol, and tobacco - obviously. I have several of these adds. You can find these ads on-line. I've been asked to suppress this piece of history. I've been asked several times.

During a new member orientation for SMs, cadets, and parents, I (as squadron AEO) gave a lecture and slide presentation on the history of the CAP with a strong focus on early history. The Powerpoint slides I created included some of the "politically incorrect" cigarette and home appliance ads featuring female CAP pilots. As the old advertisements were displayed, I briefly explained the context of the advertisements within that particular time frame: mixed and changing gender roles in society and the military, the widespread and acceptable use of tobacco at the time, etc. I also noted that, compared to other military, government, and social institutions, the CAP was much more inclusive in its membership which included people (old WWI veterans, women, minorities, etc.) who were excluded or restricted in performing regular military service.

History requires depth and breadth. When we excise the "politically incorrect"and eliminate contextual background, it is no longer history but propaganda. (Neoconservative pundits, Pentagon, are you also listening?)

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, if you want to use CAP-related art, you're restricted to just a handful of items.  Maybe we need a CAP artist program so we have something other than the same old paintings to use. 

[Smithsonia]

Things like this will be referenced in the History Library - give it time to load (2.5 minutes for me):
http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hgp&CISOPTR=566&CISOBOX=1&REC=3

This is from Southern Methodist's online library. The document is important as reference for CAP.
It is the Office of Civil Defense pamphlet dated March '41. This does not mention CAP specifically. But it does explain the organizing
plan and principals for all of the Civil Defense Volunteers and comes from the office of Florella LaGuardia

Additionally from the Office of James Landis: http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/hgp&CISOPTR=589&filename=590.pdf#search=%22Civil%20defense--Organization--United%20States.%22

James Landis is one big deal in the organization of CAP (although he was in the Office of Civil Defense) James Landis, it is
my personal contention, is the character upon which Gil Robb Wilson based his public persona. Landis was the son of Kennesaw
Mountain Landis (commissioner of of Baseball through the 20s-40s) and a WW1 pilot of note. He was a major yet overlooked CAP figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Landis

These are seminal documents for CAP's WW2 organization. Enjoy. It loads a little funny - so you'll have to play with it to read.

[Smithsonia]

Lt. Col. Mark Hess has been working 14-20 hours a day... and yes every day to finish his fine online history library. The precursor
to this dedicated CAP/AF history library has been placed on SCRIBd. You can see some of the items that the history library will hold, click here: http://www.scribd.com/TeamCAP

Mark wrote me today and said: "The Scribd CAP History account passed over the 500,000 mark for views. CAP History has been the #1 history category on Scribd of 50 million users for 39 straight weeks."

I think this is remarkable for two reasons. (1) It points to the fine work of Mark Hess. He is simply the finest researcher of CAP history in .... well, history. The juices of dedication to CAP history flow with his blood to the enlightenment of us all. He has been kind enough to send me some of his scans and I have posted it here and on the Rediscovery of JF Curry" thread too.

(2) This indicates the pent-up demand for Civil Air Patrol history.

This hunger is worth feeding. Mark has been "cookin'" since May of last year. (17 months) He is getting close to opening his online library. He said he'll let me know soon.   

[Smithsonia]

Here's some more from the marvelous collection of Mark Hess. A collection of CAP buttons and wings.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamcivilairpatrol/page16/

I'll update you soon as to a launch date for the online library.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ed:

The Camel cigarette advertisement was printed by me and now hangs proudly in the "Heritage Ready Room" at my headquarters.  Right next to the "Night Patrol" ad for Norge washing machines, with the attractive lady CAP pilot who will, when this war is over, "Demand the same reliability from her washing machine that she now demands from her airplane."

[flyboy53]

I'm just curious? Is this Mark Hess the same individual I knew at DINFOS who would serve as an Air Force broadcaster/public affairs specialist?

This is certainly a great collection...kind of dwarfs my personal collection of insignia, books and magazines that I've collected over the years.

[Grumpy]

Outstanding, sir!

This will not go unnoticed. I promise to use the materials to teach a history class to our cadets when the time comes.

I am proud to be a member of the same organization as Lt Col Hess.

GAWG does produce the cream of the crop, you know

:clap:

Is that sweet cream or sour cream?   

[DakRadz]

Outstanding, sir!

This will not go unnoticed. I promise to use the materials to teach a history class to our cadets when the time comes.

I am proud to be a member of the same organization as Lt Col Hess.

GAWG does produce the cream of the crop, you know

:clap:

Is that sweet cream or sour cream?   

Both, sir. North of Atlanta and south of Atlanta, respectively

[SarDragon]

Outstanding, sir!

This will not go unnoticed. I promise to use the materials to teach a history class to our cadets when the time comes.

I am proud to be a member of the same organization as Lt Col Hess.

GAWG does produce the cream of the crop, you know

:clap:

Is that sweet cream or sour cream?   

For you, Grumps, curdled! 

[Smithsonia]

Mark Hess emailed me yesterday. He hopes to have his history website and library online by Nov. 14th. Nov. 14 would be a perfect launch day as that is the precise day CAP was to be launched... yes it was. However internal delays in 1941 caused the actual CAP launch day of Dec. 1st.

Mark apologized for the delay but had to take some time off and is also deeply involved in a security revamp of the site. I guess there are new tools and new tactics used by hackers... and Mark needs to account for...

Mark is back on the website nearly full time and is working through the issues. I can hardly wait!!!

[Smithsonia]

Lt. Col. Mark Hess has posted many many many CAP Louisiana Wing Pictures from WW2 here.
I think the L2 on floats is a hoot. Listed as Courier Service:
http://picasaweb.google.com/TeamCivilAirPatrol/1943NewOrleansSQ#

Well worth the look... particularly for you LA-Wing members.

[YakYak]

I am interested in the website going up to post and share historic CAP items.    I am not a member of CAP and I do not read CAPtalk.  However, I have been involved in promoting the WWII history of the CAP, including collecting and distributing items donated WWII CAP vets or their heirs to appropriate museums.
Most of these items have been scanned or photographed and are available on CD in very high resolution format.  I have releases from the donors letting these out into the public domain and expressly stating that nothing more than the cost of copying and delivery is ever to be charged for their use.  They are intentionally not rights protected.
I also suggest that, when this website goes live, Lindsey Barnes, the Archivist for the National WWII Museum in New Orleans be notified.   I have been working with her to establish an archive on the WWII CAP.  This is the first place authors, historians, video producers will go for WWII information.
If the person who is building this website will post contact information here, I will contact you about seeing you have the materials.

[YakYak]

This is very good news. 

I am not a member of CAP.  Nor am I a regular reader of CAPtalk.   Someone forwarded this notice to me.

However, I have been involved in CAP history outreach around its WWII story  for some time.  I have in my possession quite a few photographs and documents which I have collecerted, scanned and/or photographed in hi resolution format.  Also pictures of artifacts donated.  Also information on where displays are or will be going up  (possible links to the site).  The donors have signed documents releasing these items to the public domain for purposes of advancing CAP history.

If Mark Hess will post a notice here telling me how to reach him directly, I would be glad to discuss what would be useful and would be very happy to contribute it to this project. 

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
YakYak;
Mark is not a member on this website. He will be launching the website soon (or at least that is my understanding) Could he get back to you soon? He's waiting until his information on the launch date is set. You are welcome to contact me directly. I'll pass it along. So PM me if you like.

[YakYak]

I am not a member of CAP, but I have been very actively involved in getting its story (esp WWII) out.

In the course of this, I have collected a number of artifacts that have been distributed to the appropriate musuems and according to the wishes of the donors, photographs, documents which are reproduced in hi-res tiff (archival) format.

I would be very happy to turn these over to Mark Hess.   I think it is wonderful and very worthwhile that someone has gone to the trouble of collecting all this and making it available online.

If Mark Hess will leave an e-mail address here, I wold be happy to contact him about getting
making this stuff available for the wesite by copying onto CDs.

[Smithsonia]

The oddest of things has occurred. There are members and those who sell to - or work for CAP that:
1. Misrepresent themselves.
2. Misrepresent their agenda.
3. In an attempt to hoard, corral, restrain, constrain, possess, manipulate, or otherwise own CAP History.

Of course anyone can own a piece of CAP history. Anyone can keep a family heirloom, uniform, medals, items, militaria, etc. What I find confounding (and in the extreme) is those that possess this information or item for their own small purposes.

In the cases I am speaking about: Members (and others) want to build a business outside CAP, to sell to CAP, what was once CAP's materials. These people care little of the actual history and more about the real money. In this case I am speaking about YakYak from the entries just above. In this case the woman has no sense that most of the Neprud Flying Minute Men book is the oddest of concoctions. A bit of Public Relations Press Releases, odds and ends from the field and official reports from the Wings. But it is not history. From the 5 stories I have investigated from the Neprud book - errors in dates, times, places, and relevant facts are abundant. As I say - I have investigated only 5 stories but it does make me think that the rest of the book is rather dodgy as to facts.

The people who hang on to things and not facts are wrong about history. These folks are not evil nor bad. However, I've always believed them misguided. These are members of the "den of archivists."

As I said these people are not evil, nor large in number. However the veneration of objects becomes their stock and trade and not the dissemination of the true history for CAP or other organizations.

Yak Yak (see above) is one of these people. She is a broker - a middle man for CAP articles of cloth. She is of a much different ethos than myself and I assume Mark Hess.

Museums must spend lots of money to acquire items of history. From dinosaur bones to Confederate flags. However, when this collecting goes on year after year - The objects can pervert the intellectual truth. To maintain the objects value, new information is dismissed - old outdated or misunderstood information is defended - the object becomes the legend and the truth is thrown away - and historian blood-battles begin.

To the rescue comes a very different type of institution - A LIBRARY. It owns nothing but information. It makes nothing but loans of this information. It is for reference only. It is for free. It is owned by the community. It is independent of politics. SO:

When Mark Hess' LIBRARY Opens... please remember. We have simply gathered what we can to show all we can on every topic that CAP might be interested in but have no stated agenda other than distributing information for free to everyone. No agenda what so ever but to educate and provide reference material.

Will some of the material be upsetting. Of course. We can not account for the illiberal mind of everyone and even your local library has curse words and controversial topics among it's rows and stacks of information. So expect something different. Something for you to explore, read,
and become educated. We are of no doctrine. We come in peace. We ask that you do too.

When this library opens (which I hope to announce soon) You will see the reference material for yourself. You can decide the facts for yourself. You can with some authority complete the real work of the historian... tell the story as true as can be told.

[BillB]

Ed

I think you are being overly harsh here.
1. She is not trying to sell what she has collected
2. You have no idea what she has collected
3. You say she is a "broker", depending on a defination, you could also be considered a broker. In fact anyone that collects CAP bits of history could be considered a broker.
4. She is offering what she has collected to Mark Hessand I see no way she profits from this. So what is wrong, offering what she has collected?
5. You have no idea of her sources. Did she get the items, whatever they are, directly from World War II CAP members? Has she interviewed them?
I can't see what you're so upset about. Here a woman is offering items of possible historical interest to CAP. I see nothing wrong with her post or offer.

[Smithsonia]

BillB;
There were many direct conversations between Yak Yak and Mark. These were private between the two parties. Her initial communications was an offer to help. Instead she has promised (or maintained that others) plan to sue. This of course is without any knowledge of what the library contains. So unless she personally holds the copyrights of material that she "thinks" will be presented in the Library... she has no standing in a lawsuit, and is trying not to help but impede or usurp. We've also been accused by her of being in league with provocateurs who want to cause trouble among command (Think Ray Hayden). This claim is simple minded idiocy. For instance, while I've read of him referred to in CAPTALK... I can't say that I even know what he has written... which I assume (or is described on CAPTALK) is on some scree filled accusation blog, somewhere.

In this thread she introduced herself in one manner -  I see you were taken in also. My point is not to personally hold her accountable for the differences in ethical thinking among historians. But it is to educate the uninitiated as to rocky and hard road to disseminate all historical information to all members.

I have laid out the reasons for the Library. I have also laid out the reasons that there may be some controversy.

[meganite]

Nov. 14 would be a perfect launch day as that is the precise day CAP was to be launched... yes it was. However internal delays in 1941 caused the actual CAP launch day of Dec. 1st.

So are we gonna see it on December 1st?

[YakYak]

I am YakYak.   There is a great deal of negative misinformation about me, most posted by Ed O'Brien, whom I don't even know.  Let me straighten this out as best I can.

As I stated, I am not a member of CAP.   I have, however, worked on projects to advance CAP history.  For most, I worked with CAP member Ltc Ray Lyon.  These projects include,  among other things:

I am the person who located the opportunity and created the relationship with the National Military History Museum in Auburn, IN, where a sigificant CAP display was dedicated over Memorial Day Weekend.  I researched and wrote the exhibit and acted as Project Manager.  Ray Lyon found, had restored, transported, and personally traveled to spend several weekends to reassemble the Stinson 10-A that is the centerpiece of that exhibit.

I found out and developed the relationship with the Cape Cod Military History Museum, Bourne, MA.   This musuem is new and does not have a building yet,   However, it has a substantial and growing collection of historic items associated with the history of the abutting Massachusetts Military Reservation, including a substantial collection of items from the WWII Coastal Patrol Base #18 in Falmouth.  The Bourne Historial Society has donated three acres of land to this museum, the soldiers at Camp Edwards have volunteered to clear the land, and a WWII plan for a 100 Man Mess that was designed at (then) Otis AFB, now an ANG base.  They are mounting a capital campaign now and have continued to make good progress even through this recession.  (Please note the theme here--what co-operation and collaboration can accomplish).

The Cape Cod Squadron of the MAWG and the NER HQ are located at Otis ANG base.  A terrific collaborative relationship has developed between the MAWG and this musuem.  Right now, they are working together on a MAWG Conf to be held on the Cape in late March.  This is to have an historic theme.  Any vets and their heirs are being invited to this event and are looking forward to it.  Ray and I have identified something like 7-8 vets for honors and provided their documentation to the process. Recently, Mark has provided me personally with six obituaries of vets which I have followed.   Five of them have been productive.    Mark and I are, in other words, working together well. 

In the course of working with the Musuem and the MAWG, we have located several vets and/or their heirs, who have donated items, photographs, documents to the Cape Cod Museum, some duplicates to the National WWII Museum in New Orleans, whose archives we are starting to fill.  Mark Hess has posted some of these on his website and I imagine a pretty full exhibit or gallery on the Falmouth base will appear on the site in good time.  Mark has told me this is some of the best archival materials he has received.

We also collected photos from the late Allison Catheron, vet of Suffolk and TTU 22, the late Thomas Signor Hartness who led  a base in Greenville, SC, with his beloved wife, the late Edna Hartness.   The Greenvill Squadron was particularly good at trining pilots and two of its women members went into the WASPs.  Again. all of these have been copied and turned over to all parties so this history is not lost. 

Neither Ray Lyon nor I has kept any of these items.  Nor have we sold them.  We are not collectors.  We have taken these items in temporarily to photograph or scan them and record information about them.   This information has been put in high-resolution format and copies have been captioned, IDed as possible.  Copies of these have been sent to CAPHF, the CAP, MAWG, the National WWII Musuem, the Falmouth Historical Society  and now, Mark Hess.   Mark is completely free to post this on his website and there is absolutely no agenda except to contribute to the store of useful historica infomration that website will make public.

We have also provided information to the Icehouse Museum, in Rehoboth Beach, DEL, which is preparing an exhibit on Rehoboth in WWII, including the CAP.

The archivist at the National WWII Museum informs me that the only CAP items in their files are the one we have sent.  They would love more.

We are trying to work with the MEWG on a major project there.  More about that later if it takes shape.   If this project comes through it will be because I created the opportunity, brought key parties outside CAP to the table, and the MEWG has come in behind this magnificently. 

We have also found something like seven or eight WWII Falmouth vets, two of them living vets, one of whom died 2.5 months after receiving the awards.    Col. Meskill and members of his wing are working on getting honors to these vets, even if posthumously.

At no time, has either Ray or I taken in money for these artifacts.    On the contrary, a lot of this work has gone forward with a substantial investment of time and money from us.  None of these items is in any personal collection.  We are not collectors.  IN fact, we took care to obtain signed documents from the donors designting where the orginals are to go and relesing all to the public domain to advance CAP history.

Mark Hess should know by now that I am full agreement with the philosophy of this website--specifically that so much more can be accomplished by sharing information and by collaborating on project to advance CAP history.  I regard the relationship between the Cape Cod Musuem and the MAWG and the potential Maine project as some of the most rewarding work I have done on CAP history and as models for what can happen with openly sharing information and putting people with complementary intersts in contact with each other. 

I have no intention of getting involved in any legal entanglements with CAP and CAPHF and certainly not a lawsuit.  That is totallly FALSE.

Neprud is not my sole sourve of information about CAP.  If there is anything I have said that is in error, I would be happy to hear about it and correct it.  I have used Nerpud, Operation Drumbeat, From Maine to Mexico, conversations and documents from the vets or their heirs.

ALL I have tried to do is to turn over anything and everything I know to places and activities that would share this history publicly.  I believe that CAP history outreach is a superb opportunity to advance understanding, trust and support for CAP.  I bring 30+ years of professional corporate communications experience to the table, some of it at high levels.

My interest in this history is the model it provides for volunteer service. As you know, the men and women who served the CAP in WWII worked for some tie without resources and had to radi dumps and old Civilian Conservation Corps Camps for supplies.   They could have made more money working in wartime manufacturing.  There  are many, many heroes from our Wars.   I do not diminish their contributions.   I merely want to show what determined people who are considered too old, too young, too fat, too nearsigthed, too diabetic, to serve in conventional military forces can do when they come together.

I hope this clears things up.  It's too bad that a person who is unknown to the community and who seeks nothing but the contacts to make contributions available finds themselves attacked like this with no basis in fact.

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
YakYak;
You have missed the point yet again by stating your Museum credits and misstating our project's purpose.
A Museum and a Library are both wonderful, important, and treasured civic institutions.

There is a difference between the ethos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethos
expressed in a museum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum
and the ethos of a Library http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library

This difference been made for you several times, both on this thread and discussions that you've had with Mark Hess.

The differences are subtle yet not small. TeamCAP is a library. The fact that your resume (above) states your museum experience (which is admirable) and does not directly address the issue of the difference, which was the point of my post above regarding you - makes the distinctions even more important, so that all understand.

The CAP Historical Foundation is set up as a museum. Over the years this need to possess, own, contain, physically collect items, sell, copyright, (hold in 3 dimensions) etc. has delayed the distribution of historical material in image form.

The internet has been around for 30 years and popular for 15, yet the Historical Foundation has been unable to present, update, or change much of their website for years and years. A museum can have trouble and be restricted in items on display. The commercial nature of some museums acts as a deterrent to distribution. Think of a Museum as a bank. A library is different. I'll followup on this analogy in a minute.


The Mark Hess' Library known as TeamCAP.org has 2 stated purposes.

1. To distribute to anyone with access to a computer and the internet - research materials of CAP Historical Documents, pictures, briefings, catalogues, memorabilia, events, images, and other items of interest.

Except for those items which are specifically owned by members or interested parties - the images (only) are donated and distributed free of charge for the education of unspecified parties. Exhibit permission has been asked for and granted on items not in the public domain.

However, TeamCAP is not a publisher, owner, or author of these items unless specifically stated otherwise. Just like a library.

For instance - I believe that some of the photos collected by Mark Hess were used in the Auburn Museum exhibit that you were Project Manage on - and these pictures were NOT attributed to Mark's Collection. While not encouraged, this use was not illegal or even out of bounds. It was however poor citizenship. This is not a credit to your museum style perspective. In other cases, members of CAPTALK have gone in to Mark's website and downloaded every image sequentially while not contributing or joining the TeamCAP.org site. Once again, this is not encouraged but within the stated purposes of the library. If TeamCAP was a museum and you stole the material for the National Military Museum CAP Exhibit... we'd have a much testier conversation. Be thankful that TeamCAP is a library (virtual facility) and not a museum (collection treasury).

That said, in the cases cited above, it is a disrespectful but not disgraceful or unlawful act.

The Library is not meant to compete with your work on Museum Projects or the CAP Historical Foundation. It is designed to accent, enhance, and facilitate both and all CAP historical enterprises.

2. TeamCAP.org is designed to seek out, receive, and distribute donated images from personal collections. In this way TeamCAP is a ground up, not top down, enterprise.

TeamCAP is free, at all times. While entrance fees, usage fees, and tracking donated items are important for museums, that is not TeamCAPs purpose. So a cadet needing an image for a squadron paper, an AEO giving a powerpoint lecture, a PAO needing an expositive picture, and a third party needing a tie-in for a military history meeting are all acceptable reasons for the TeamCAP site  Sharing is encouraged but not required. Give what you like. Take what you need. Come in peace. Be nice. Don't impose. Don't control. Contribute. Participate. TeamCAP is for the appreciation, education, and growth of CAP and Military History.

Frankly, your (YakYak's) Museum "view" about lawsuits, copyrights, donations of the TeamCAP library to other entities, and behind the scenes maneuvering including daily and multiple emails on this topic to other members have been read but are not in the same collegial ETHOS as the TeamCAP library. Think of a library as a bank lobby. You can see the money, but you can't own it. The bank lobby is for everyone even casual walk-throughs, the bank's money has assigned commercial purposes. Think of a library as a place of welcome and for intellectual purposes.

I trust this clears up the issue for you and all those reading this thread. Join TeamCAP if you like. Everyone is welcome.

[YakYak]

     This is beyond bizarre and it ends here.  I'm sorry I ever came onto this site.
I have electronic copies of vintage photographs and documents from the WWII CAP.  I came by them honestly from vets and their heirs and delivered the originals according to their wishes. The donors all expressed their desires to share these materials openly.
When I learned of Mark Hess's website project, I asked for contact information so I could contribute these to him, which I have done.   I sent these to Mark with a very clear understanding that he has always intended to create an online wiki-archives of CAP history.  In alignment with that wiki-philosophy, they were sent to Mark with no conditions, no costs, no copyright restrictions (on the contrary), no hidden agenda, and nothing about lawsuits.  Anything I said to Mark about legal matters had to do with pro-actively protecting the website.
Why Ed O'Brien, whom I do not know at all and who does not know me at all, thinks he has any grounds on which to publish very negative and false accusations he heard from third parties about conversations he did not audit or witness, is beyond me.  Nor do I have a clue on what basis he thinks he knows how I interpret or misinterpret anything about libraries or museums or CAPHF's approach to history outreach.  I do not have anything close to Mark's technical knowledge.  I have long thought about such a website, but I don't have the know-how to build one—let alone one this massive and complicated. 
I have forwarded to Mark collections of materials on Coastal Patrol Base #18, Falmouth, MA, from the late vets Everett L. King and Donald V. LaCouture; on Tow Target Unit #22 from Ev. King and the late Allison Catheron; on  CP Base #17, Suffolk, L.I. from Allison Catheron;  and  on the WWII Squadron in Greenville, SC, which was under the leadership of the late Thomas Signor Hartness (donor), and a few isolated other pieces. Mark will post them as he has time.  I hope you will find them interesting and possibly useful.  As I understand it, they constitute the tiniest fraction of what will ultimately be available.  But they are the extent of whatever crimes against good citizenship Ed O'Brien thinks I have committed.
I do not know on what basis there is a claim that Mark furnished photographs to the National Military History Museum that were not credited.  Has anyone seen the exhibit?  All contributions were credited in a separate panel at the end of the exhibit to keep the look of the exhibit clean.  If there is an oversight, I am sure the museum would be happy to correct it. 
Ed, thank you for your posts on John Curry.  I look forward to reading your book.  Whether you write a book, and I work with museums, or someone else creates a documentary, or a CAP historian or PAO finds materials for his or her work, this website will enable more outreach than has been possible before.  I agree with you that it is a great thing. 

[jimmydeanno]

In all honesty, I don't think anyone here has the slightest clue what you two are tip-toeing around.  So, if this is y'alls dirty laundry, it's making this thread, which started out great, stink.

[Smithsonia]

YakYak;
Regarding your account on the previous page. That does not jive with the facts. The Teamcap.org images used in the Auburn Exhibit and were collected by other members working on the exhibit under your project management well before contact was ever made between you (YakYak) and Mark Hess. AND before either of you swapped any images.

This is easy to prove and easy to forgive... because once again - The Teamcap.org site is a library.

The Auburn Museum Exhibit was launched on Memorial Day (May 31 2010). http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10682.0
The contact between you and Mark did not begin until Nov. 2010. You can check your requests for contact with Mark on this thread. I believe that date is Nov. 7th, 2010.

We know how these images were obtained and when. As I have stated... Mark and I are glad to be of service. BUT, it would be nice to receive some attribution (or some appreciation) and not your misstatement regarding the facts.

[Ned]

Ed,

Let it go.  Or take it to PM.


You are driving people away from the thread, and leaving them with a bad taste in their mouths for what is a wonderful, wonderful project.

[RADIOMAN015]

Fifty-two Wing Historians, Eight Regional Historians, National Historian(s) Historical Foundation a

And as far as a document repository, it CANNOT be a CAP operation.  It just cannot be done as a volunteer operation in the back of some warehouse.  It needs to be in a real climate controlled building staffed by professional archivists and librarians and open to the public.  CAP will never be able to fund that on its own, so we need to get someone else to take our stuff. 

Preferably, it would be the National Archives, but given our strange legal status that may or may not be possible.  The second best option would be an archive associated with one of the existing Air Force archives.  Failing that, a respectable archive associated with a university would be acceptable.

I agree with this in that the AF needs to give some assistance to Civil Air Patrol in this matter.   Locally in the community we have a historian that digs out all sorts of facts & I asked him IF he could find anything about our squadron, specifically when it was formed.  He told me that it's very difficult to get information on volunteer groups, because there really wasn't much record keeping/method for historical record keeping.  Perhaps early next year I will do a press release to the community asking if anyone has historical documents pertaining to Civil Air Patrol in the Area.  In the mid/late 60's we had 7 units in the local area, now we have two units

Even our wing started to work on a history project, BUT I haven't heard anything about it in a long time

RM