Whatever ever happened to "Officer" vs "Senior Member" ??

[Dixie]

Does anyone know the official position that CAP took on renaming our "Senior Members" as "Officers?"  The most recent thing I can find on this is a letter from Pineda suggesting it be done in our presentation materials and saying he was going to propose this at the Nov 06 NEC meeting; however, I can't find any material on what the official outcome of this was.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks

[lordmonar]

I was never an offical position.

It was only a suggestion to members about communicating to outside agencies.

[Eclipse]

Correct, and officially disavowed by our current National Commander in the notes from a meeting early on.  They are around here somewhere.

[Spike]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

[SarDragon]

That's because it's a course that officers take as a part of their PD path.

[Eclipse]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

No, they aren't. That is simply the name of one course.

"Officer" is not a grammatically or categorically correct generic term for adult members of CAP.  Its original, misguided intention was in an attempt to dispel some silly notion that "Senior" = "Old".  Further legacy of HWSRN.

The result was such fun such as:

"Officer Member Without Grade"

"Officer Member NCO's"

All adults in CAP are "Senior Members", but not all "Senior Members" are Officers.

If there's an issue with "Senior" as a generic term, so be it.  "Officer" is not an appropriate replacement for a number of reasons.

I personally believe that in the Grand Scheme®, there are and were more important things to worry about then things like this.

[Gunner C]

I always thought that "member" was a pretty good one.  Cadets could just be "cadets" (cadets are historically not "full members" of an organization, usually military).  That way we could designate adults with one word and include NCOs, SMs (without grade), etc.  But that prolly wouldn't be popular.

[Eclipse]

I always thought that "member" was a pretty good one.  Cadets could just be "cadets" (cadets are historically not "full members" of an organization, usually military).  That way we could designate adults with one word and include NCOs, SMs (without grade), etc.  But that prolly wouldn't be popular.

That was my suggestion when this nonsenses started.

[Fuzzy]

Alot of verbage in regs might need to change with that solution. When the reg means to say everyone and just says members.

And if I'm not a member I hope I don't have to pay dues.

[Spike]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

No, they aren't. That is simply the name of one course.

"Officer" is not a grammatically or categorically correct generic term for adult members of CAP.  Its original, misguided intention was in an attempt to dispel some silly notion that "Senior" = "Old".  Further legacy of HWSRN.

The result was such fun such as:

"Officer Member Without Grade"

"Officer Member NCO's"

All adults in CAP are "Senior Members", but not all "Senior Members" are Officers.

If there's an issue with "Senior" as a generic term, so be it.  "Officer" is not an appropriate replacement for a number of reasons.

I personally believe that in the Grand Scheme®, there are and were more important things to worry about then things like this.

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

I think the hatred toward the word "Officer" is due to the fact that many disliked the previous National Commander.  Perhaps because he was of hispanic origin? 

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too. 

[sardak]

The CAP Constitution and Bylaws refer to cadet members and senior members. Officer is used for corporate officers and positions such as National Legal Officer.

Mike

[Eclipse]

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

And what do you do for new members?

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

You are mistaken, at least in this context.  Actually I think I have seen it myself in poorly written pubs, and
the reader trips over it like a misplaced noun if they actually understand CAP or the military.

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too.

And where is the ICL that directs you to use it to start with?  This is frankly quite a strange thing to draw a line on.

[lordmonar]

Do we really have to start up this conversation again? 

[Spike]

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

And what do you do for new members?

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

You are mistaken, at least in this context.  Actually I think I have seen it myself in poorly written pubs, and
the reader trips over it like a misplaced noun if they actually understand CAP or the military.

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too.

And where is the ICL that directs you to use it to start with?  This is frankly quite a strange thing to draw a line on.

CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions, R35-5
50-17
39-3
39-1 (especially the change letters relating to the CSU)
174-1
10-2AFI10-2701

This was just a quick search, but each refers "Senior Members" as "Officers" in some places, within the context of identifying the member. 

In my area new Members are referred to as "Mister or Miss".  NCO's are are referred to as NCO's.

Once again, this is an area where there can be multiple opinions and support in various documents that can be construed either way.

With my Squadron on an AF Base, it is polite and propper to introduce my members to AF personnel as "Officers, NCO's and Cadets"  They understand those terms, while they may not understand what "Senior Member" means.

[SarDragon]

Gotta go with Bob on this one. The only thing I ever saw was a paper letter that was mailed to the units, and its intent was primarily for external usage of the term officer instead of senior member. I have nothing in my collection of downloaded regs, letters, etc. that shows any mandate to use the term CAP-wide.

Our officers are a subset of our senior members, and always have been. There other segments that don't fit into the definition of officer - new members without rank, NCOs, sponsor members, student aerospace education members, organizational aerospace education members, business members, affiliate members, state Legislative members, congressional members, and honorary members.

[vento]

IMHO, CAPM 39-1 The "Uniform Manual" defines Senior Members Without Grade vs. Officers quite clearly. It even spells out what one can and can't wear if not an officer.

All adult members are Senior Members, only grade 2d Lt and above are officers. The pay is the same though 

Funny, I found a way to bring uniforms into the discussion. Haha. 

[SarDragon]

Almost - you forgot about the Flight Officers. 

[ßτε]

CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions, R35-5
50-17
39-3
39-1 (especially the change letters relating to the CSU)
174-1
10-2
AFI10-2701

This was just a quick search, but each refers "Senior Members" as "Officers" in some places, within the context of identifying the member. 

In my area new Members are referred to as "Mister or Miss".  NCO's are are referred to as NCO's.

Once again, this is an area where there can be multiple opinions and support in various documents that can be construed either way.

With my Squadron on an AF Base, it is polite and propper to introduce my members to AF personnel as "Officers, NCO's and Cadets"  They understand those terms, while they may not understand what "Senior Member" means.

None of those posted refer to senior members generically as officers.

The context is either in reference to Corporate Officers, duty positions like Administrative Officer, or specifically to those holding officer grades (2d Lt through Maj Gen).  This is particularly true for AFI10-2701.

As a matter of fact the "change letters relating to the CSU" read "senior member officer" in nearly every occurrence of the word officer.

The regulations are consistent in this point. They do not use the word "Officer" to refer to a generic senior member, but only to those who either hold officer grade or officer position.

[JoeTomasone]

Describing Senior Members as "Officers" does not work because:

1. The term is exclusive of Senior Member NCOs

2. The term naturally includes Cadet Officers

3. SMWOG is excluded.



"Adult" doesn't work because Cadets can remain Cadets into (early) adulthood.   You can have a 21 year old Cadet as subordinate to a 19 year old TFO.


Internally, we need a term that describes a particular group -- non-Cadets -- because many regulations make a distinction between Cadets and non-Cadets.   I've been saying "Senior Member" for close to 30 years now, so it's second nature - but in that time I never made the illogical leap to "senior citizen", although I suppose I can envision it being made, I consider it as something of a stretch.   I've never heard of someone being offended or presumed to be elderly because they were a member of a "Senior Staff" or as a "Senior Advisor" or "Senior Vice President".   

Externally, you can describe members as befits the situation and their makeup.   "This is my staff", etc.   


Quite frankly, my vote would be to leave it as-is and let those who make incorrect assumptions be incorrect.

[Dixie]

geez....I just wanted to know if referring to our "Senior Members" as "Officers" had ever gotten past that memo that Pineda wrote back in 2006. I simple "nope" would have sufficed =)

[Flying Pig]

Hows-about..."Hey Joe..."

[Parsifal]

I wish there were a general, not-so-clumsy, military-style term for CAP members regardless of rank.  In the early days of military aviation, pilots and aircrew members were sometimes referred to as "Air Patrolmen," especially when military aviation was considered primarily a reconaissance asset. Today, the term "Air Patrolman" is often applied to law enforcement pilots, but perhaps we could borrow and apply that term (or something similar) to senior members.

[jeders]

geez....I just wanted to know if referring to our "Senior Members" as "Officers" had ever gotten past that memo that Pineda wrote back in 2006. I simple "nope" would have sufficed =)

Welcome to CAPTalk.

I also vote that we leave it alone. More of a solution looking for a problem type thing anyway.

[Flying Pig]

If I was ever officially referred to as an Air Patrolman I would consider self mutilation!  

[wuzafuzz]

If I was ever officially referred to as an Air Patrolman I would consider self mutilation!

The PC Police would shudder at the use of the gender specific Air Patrolman title.  From this point forward thou shalt use the term Skyborne Patrolperson.  Unless you can think of something even worse.   :angel:

Seriously, what's wrong with just being CAP members?  Within that we have cadets and everyone else.  The rest is just fluff, and of little import to outsiders.

[Flying Pig]

OH CRAP...I didnt even think about how insensitive this title would have been to our female, gay, lesbian and transgender officers.  Again, like usual, I was only thinking about how it would affect me.  I apologize.  You have to forgive me, I was raised in public school.

[brasda91]

in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

Sure, if you're introducing a prospective adult to the squadron.  After that, you expalin the youth members are refered to as Cadets and the adult members are refered to as Senior Members.

[brasda91]

Internally, we need a term that describes a particular group -- non-Cadets -- because many regulations make a distinction between Cadets and non-Cadets.   I've been saying "Senior Member" for close to 30 years now, so it's second nature - but in that time I never made the illogical leap to "senior citizen", although I suppose I can envision it being made, I consider it as something of a stretch.   I've never heard of someone being offended or presumed to be elderly because they were a member of a "Senior Staff" or as a "Senior Advisor" or "Senior Vice President".   

Externally, you can describe members as befits the situation and their makeup.   "This is my staff", etc.   


Quite frankly, my vote would be to leave it as-is and let those who make incorrect assumptions be incorrect.

When I talk about CAP to someone outside of the organization, I commonly refer to the other senior members as my staff.

[N Harmon]

I wish there were a general, not-so-clumsy, military-style term for CAP members regardless of rank.

"Volunteer"

It has military history, isn't clumsy, and is fairly general. But then, "member" isn't so bad. It's what the Coast Guard refers to their people as.

[Smokey]

The "Senior Squadron" term reared it's ugly head again recently for my unit (a senior sq).

An article appeared in a local paper about CAP and referenced us and an upcoming SAREX.  The sidebar invited folks to come to the SAREX and see what we were about.   A few folks showed up and some of them commented that they thought the squadron was restricted to "Senior citizens".   I wonder how many folks (those not yet receiving social security) failed to show up because they thought the squadron was only for the "old" folks?  How many potential members did we loose because of the "senior" connotation?

I base this on the comments from  three of the folks I personally spoke to (that showed up).  All thought the SAREX involved only senior citizens and they were surprised to see young folks particiapting.

[Eclipse]

Then change the name - they should all be composites anyway...

[NC Hokie]

Then change the name - they should all be composites anyway...

Do regulations allow us to simply drop the Senior/Composite/Cadet designation when dealing with outside organizations such as the press?

[Eclipse]

Then change the name - they should all be composites anyway...

Do regulations allow us to simply drop the Senior/Composite/Cadet designation when dealing with outside organizations such as the press?

The T&Q would probably say "no", but what's to stop you from just referring to the unit as the "x" Squadron?  This is why I'm not a fan of have the designator on unit insignia, because it really doesn't mean anything outside CAP, and even internally a lot of people just ignore the mandates anyway.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Then change the name - they should all be composites anyway...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I have served in composite, senior and cadet squadrons.

The composite and cadet squadrons weren't radically different from one another.

The senior squadron was, in ways I've detailed elsewhere.

Why not just use a numeric/wing designator; i.e., 100 (New York) Squadron, CAP?

I still wish we could find an adequate term to replace "senior member," which I've loathed ever since I first joined CAP.  A new second looie in my unit was very glad to get her butterbars because she didn't like "Senior Member."  I haven't yet found anyone who does like the term.

I've thought of several, but they all have negatives:

Officer Candidate (like the military OCS)
Civil Airman (which would beg the question, "what is an UN-Civil Airman?")
Officer Trainee
Officer Cadet (which would be confused with the cadet program)
Aspirant (which is what the French Air Force uses for its officer candidates; you can imagine how that would be used phonetically)

The USN Sea Cadets use "Instructor" for their adult members who haven't pinned on Ensign yet; that might be a possibility.

As far as "officers" v. "senior members," I've always understood it informally that 2nd Lt. and up are "officers."  However, all non-cadet personnel, from NCO's, to the reviled (by me) SMWOG, to Flight Officers, to 2nd Lt. and above, are all also "senior members."

[MIKE]

Auxiliarist. 

[JoeTomasone]

Auxiliarist. 

Meter Reader.   

[SarDragon]

Tick. Tick. Tick.

[Spike]

So when a member is promoted to Second Lieutenant is he or she a "senior member second lieutenant" or just a "second lieutenant"??

Example: "I would like to see Senior Member Second Lieutenant Michelle Jones Miller, when she becomes available".

I still see no reason for not referring to Adults who hold Officer grade be referred to as "Officers".  NCO's are totally different story here.  New Members can be addressed as Mister or Miss. 

[CS]

Just as a point of information, an NCO is an officer (albeit non-commissioned).  All of our ranks/grades in CAP are officer ranks/grades for 'senior members' and are non-commissioned, except if there is no rank/grade.

[Al Sayre]

Even SMWOG could be considered Officer Candidates...

[raivo]

Aspirant (which is what the French Air Force uses for its officer candidates; you can imagine how that would be used phonetically)

Initiate
Novice
Apprentice
And my personal favorite, "Probie."

[Eclipse]

Few terms that quantify a Senior Member as a "student", "cadet", "apprentice", or similar, are appropriate, because that it not the standing or relationship that a new member enters when they join CAP.

They can be unit CC's, or even a Wing CC the day after their Level 1 clears, and after Level 1, they are no longer "candidates" for anything, considering there is no requirement for seniors to progress, nor limitation to participation connected to grade.

In many cases, the new member has more experience and ability than the people reviewing his application (which is part of the plan).

There's no need to change anything.

[FW]

Re: Whatever ever happened to "Officer" vs "Senior Member" ?? « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 01:55:32 PM »

geez....I just wanted to know if referring to our "Senior Members" as "Officers" had ever gotten past that memo that Pineda wrote back in 2006. I simple "nope" would have sufficed =)


^Nope...