young high ranking Senior members

[flyguy06]

One thing I noticed at NESA and I wanted to get folks onhere thoughts. I saw a lot of high ranking people that were like my age. Let me explain. In my wing, most of the higher ups (Group CC's, Wing cmd staff) are grey haired folks (bless their souls) but I saw at NESA a 33 year old Wing Vice Commmader, a 46 year old Wing DO, a 30 something year old Wing Stan eval guy. I think its great. It gives me hope thatmaybe I can advance in this organization.

btw whatever happened to that WIng Commander I read about that was inhis 20's? Is he still around?

[jimmydeanno]

btw whatever happened to that WIng Commander I read about that was inhis 20's? Is he still around?

I think he's in his 30's now 

When I first joined CAP, I remember hearing a lot of talk about how people wished that former cadets would become more prominent in leadership positions.  Perhaps we're starting to see the beginnings of that come to fruition.

I think that as the leadership turns over and the organization makes progress (something that MANY "more experienced" members hate) the assumption that the young guys don't have any experience is going away.  Even leadership in the corporate world is starting to get younger.

At RSC one of the members of my seminar was a early 30's Group CC from AZ (fmr Cadet).  The former MIWG CC was pretty young too. 

Personally, I don't care about the age of the person in the spot, so long as they are doing a good job.   

[davidsinn]

) but I saw at NESA a 33 year old Wing Vice Commmader,

Lt. Col Griffith, INWG? If so I believe he's in the 3 diamond club.

[Eclipse]

Fly, what you got to see was more of the "real" CAP.  That's why its so important to get members participating
in activities outside the local unit. 

In some case the difference it literally night and day in terms of ops tempo and attitude.  I've had more than one member who was ready to quit and the remedy was to go and see the "real" CAP elsewhere.

[Stonewall]

I was a 30 year old Lt Col and a 26 year old Major.

[NIN]

I was a 30 year old Lt Col and a 26 year old Major.

But man, you didn't look a day over 12!

[SJFedor]

One thing I noticed at NESA and I wanted to get folks onhere thoughts. I saw a lot of high ranking people that were like my age. Let me explain. In my wing, most of the higher ups (Group CC's, Wing cmd staff) are grey haired folks (bless their souls) but I saw at NESA a 33 year old Wing Vice Commmader, a 46 year old Wing DO, a 30 something year old Wing Stan eval guy. I think its great. It gives me hope thatmaybe I can advance in this organization.

btw whatever happened to that WIng Commander I read about that was inhis 20's? Is he still around?

You also saw a 33 year old Wing CS up there, who is also a CAPTalk person on occasion. 

...and a 22 year old Group DO 

[flyguy06]

Fly, what you got to see was more of the "real" CAP.  That's why its so important to get members participating
in activities outside the local unit. 

In some case the difference it literally night and day in terms of ops tempo and attitude.  I've had more than one member who was ready to quit and the remedy was to go and see the "real" CAP elsewhere.

You are so right Eclipse. and I have been in CAP since 1985 continuously except for college days and when I wason active duty. It is good to see other CAP things. Before NESA I went to Ohio to the NCC and that was great as well

[flyguy06]

I was a 30 year old Lt Col and a 26 year old Major.

I wasnt talking about rank as much as I was position. I have seen many 30 something Lt Col's in CAP but they usually didnt have a prominate positionlike Wing CS or Wing VC. Our WIng ES Officer is a former Spattz and he is a young Lt Col

[SDF_Specialist]

Age really shouldn't matter as much as the member's maturity level. You could be a 35 year old Lt. Col. and be just as mature as the 72 year old Lt. Col. and no one would know. Your attitude reflects your age. Besides, in a few months, I'll be a 24 year old Captain, and in 3 years, I'll be a 28 year old Major!

If the thought of having young staff members on Wing or Region is upsetting in a sense of it making one sick, then maybe a long talk with the Wing/CC would be in order.

[cap801]

I'm doing the flight officer track right now so I'll hopefully be able to transition to Captain when I'm 21 (2 years out).  And after I get out of college I'd like to pick up a wing job wherever I end up (hopeful AF pilot so who knows where that will be).

[Cecil DP]

Don't forget that BG Hal DuPont, National commander in the early 70's was in his early 30's when he was appointed. Col Bryan Cooper was in his late 20's or early 30's when he was RIWG Commander., and there was a 21 year old Major in PAWG in the early 90's-can't recall his name, but he was awarded Captain for having a Spaatz award and then appointed a Group Commander to make him a Major. 

[dwb]

There is at least one under-40 Wing CC currently serving.

Maj Gen Courter isn't old, she's probably the youngest CAP/CC we've had in a while.  She's the first one since Brig Gen Anderson to have a hair color other than grey (well, Brig Gen Bobick wasn't completely grey...)

There are certainly pockets of this organization that suffer from Old Fogeyism, and one of the problems with that is that you never get any new ideas.  I think it's great when I see someone that can become a Wing CC in their 30s; corporate officer positions like that are usually full-time jobs unto themselves.

I'm much more interested in past accomplishments and future potential than I am in age.  I might change my mind when I'm old and grey, but for now, I believe one of the things CAP can't get enough of is younger officers.

[flyguy06]

I am not complaining about it. I was just making an observation. it doesnt matter to me as long as they can do the job. But what I have found in my CAP life ispeople in my age group (30;s) work ful time jobs and are raising families and dont have the time to commit to a position like Wing CC. That in itself is a full time job.

So, unless they are rich, own their own business and have someone supporting them its hard for someone my age to work full time for a volunteer organization.

[IceNine]

btw whatever happened to that WIng Commander I read about that was inhis 20's? Is he still around?

John Brian (on Captalk), Lt Col, Former INWG/CC

I know a 22 year old Group commander pretty well 

[Major Carrales]

I see nothing wrong with motivated folks getting rank in CAP.  If a Spaatz Cadet did an outstanding job and was made a captain upon goining, it could be argued successfully that that 21 year-old Captain my have more CAP experience than a pilot breveted to the rank of Captain for their credentials.

Simply put, everyone has a place.  The Pilot Captain is a skilled aviator, the Spaatz Captain is a CAP expert.

[proveritas]

If they can do the job...

We've had several high-flying cadets in my squadron with something like 12-15 years of CAP experience between the three of them. They've been on more real-life missions than most of our seniors, staffed Encampments, etc. Two of them are at the Academy right now.

Granted, a 21 year old won't have the level of life experience/maturity of an older member (we hope!) but I'd rather have a high ranking 21 year old like that than a 50 year old pilot with no prior CAP experience.

As a FO, I'm just a bit biased though. ;-)

[flyguy06]

Again,
Unles you own your own business or are retired or just  rich, most young people have jobs and families and dont have the time it takes to be a Wing Commander. thats almost a full time job in itself.

[RiverAux]

That is what it comes down to.  Its not that younger people can't do the very high level jobs, they just can't afford to do them.  I'd be surprised if there are many Wing staffs without someone in their 20s and probably with more than a few in their 30s.

[ZigZag911]

John Brian (on Captalk), Lt Col, Former INWG/CC

I know a 22 year old Group commander pretty well 

If he was a wing CC, how come he's only lt col?

Personally I feel under 30 is kind of young for group CC, and under 35 too young for wing CC...fresh ideas and energy is great, but the jobs call for a certain level of maturity and experience as well.

[John Bryan]

For the record, I was 31 when I was appointed (also 31 when I was fired)....I was not the youngest wing commander but one of the younger ones.  As for the Lt Col, I reverted back to Lt Col after being fired. Thats a long story that I won't go into but the 11 months I served in 2006 speak for themselves:

* We reorganized the wing into 5 groups.

* Chartered 11 new squadrons.

* Had a 9% growth rate from 2/06 to 12/06 (largest growth rate in GLR).

* Established a CAP School Program. The only school program in the GLR.

* Earned credit from the Indiana Dept of Education for CAP cadet program and aerospace education materials to be used in public schools. This was a major project to link our material to the state standards.

* Earned the first successful rating for an LG Survey Audit in 10 years. Reorganized
the entire INWG Logistics Program.

* Increased the amount of training for mission base staff. Added 2 new mission IC's.

* Conducted Wing level training for CISM. Increased the number of CISM trained members in INWG.

* We increased the number of SDIS trained aircrew members and made SDIS a major operations training focus.

* Located over $4.8 million worth of illegal drugs.

* Located 2 missing aircraft...sadly no saves.

* Increased ES training and refocused ES training into a year round training program.

* Signed an MOU with the Indiana State Police, which allows them to support our
CAP communications needs.

* Started an Indiana Wing glider program (1st time we have had glider ops since
around 1984).

* Increased the amount of CAP Officer training such as SLS , CLC, UCC and held our
first ever Training Leaders of Cadets Course.

* Hired our 1st ever Wing Administrator


Things that were started in 2006 which were finished in 2007:

* Work with the Indiana House and Senate to see SB 166 become law and thus give  job protections to CAP members who miss work for missions. These are protections Indiana law already gives to volunteer firefighters and EMTs. (Senate Bill 166 was introduced in Dec 2006)....also worked on a bill which became law giving excused absences to CAP cadet who miss school for missions or NCSAs.

* Continue to train mission base staff and add 2 new IC's.

* Expand glider operations to reach more members.

* Host IACE cadets....This was the 1st time we had hosted in over 25 years.


As for age limits for group and wing CC, I will pass on that debate.  :angel:

[RiverAux]

John Brian (on Captalk), Lt Col, Former INWG/CC

I know a 22 year old Group commander pretty well 

If he was a wing CC, how come he's only lt col?

Personally I feel under 30 is kind of young for group CC, and under 35 too young for wing CC...fresh ideas and energy is great, but the jobs call for a certain level of maturity and experience as well.

I think you can find any number of jobs in the civilian and military worlds that are much, much more complicated and require a lot of maturity to handle that are routinely performed by those in their 20s and 30s.  Heck, you only need to be 25 to be a Congressman and 35 to be President for petes sake.  As long as you've got a fair amount of experience within CAP (how much has been argued in other threads), age isn't a precluding factor in my book. 

[MIKE]

Heck, we could be like the ATC and make all the uniformed old farts retire, or become SMs without grade at 55. 

[flyguy06]

Wing Commander and higher is pretty much a full time job. I dont see where they find the time

[DG]

Wing Commander and higher is pretty much a full time job. I dont see where they find the time

Mike, I agree with you and believe you are exactly right.

But these young guys are not listening.

[AlphaSigOU]

If he was a wing CC, how come he's only lt col?

'Wing kings' (and 'queens') don't keep their 'chicken colonel' promotion unless they successfully complete their term of office and the promotion to full colonel is published in NHQ CAP personnel authorizations.

In days of old, newly-minted wing commanders remained at Lt Col for 6 months (maybe a year; racking the cobwebs in the deepest recesses of my Mark I, Mod I computer) before getting the promotion to full colonel. Get relieved from the job, you go back to 'telephone colonel'. It's very rare for a wing CC who resigns from office to keep their eagles, unless they were on the national commander's good graces, who can convince the NB to vote to let the guy or gal keep their chickens.

Same deal extends to brig general and major general... you don't keep the stars if you don't finish your term.

[RiverAux]

Same deal extends to brig general and major general... you don't keep the stars if you don't finish your term.

NB voted to revise procedures for this recently.  It won't be automatic.  They won't get to keep the stars unless the NEC specifically votes to let them. 

[John Bryan]

From CAPR 35-1

"Colonel. The grade of colonel is reserved for members of the National Board, region vice commanders, the Chief of the Chaplain Service, CAP Inspector General, National Safety Officer, National Historian, and the Chief of the CAP Health Program. The National Executive Committee (NEC) is the only agency authorized to otherwise promote senior members to the grade of colonel. Such promotions are announced in personnel actions published by National Headquarters. All colonel promotions are temporary. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended by the commander of the individual concerned."

So when you are a Wing Commander  and you leave office, it is up to your Region Commander to recommend you be made a permanent Col or revert to Lt Col. National CC normally goes with whatever your Region CC decides.  There is no definition of "satisfactory completion of assignment" in the regulation, so it is kind of subjective.

As for the NEC, it is rare for them to promoted others to Col...an examples is
Mary Feik.

Also from CAPR 35-1:

"Region vice commanders, who have not served as corporate officers, will revert to the grade of lieutenant colonel (regardless of grade prior to appointment) upon completion of assignment as vice commander, unless approved by the National Executive Committee."

[ZigZag911]

Col. Bryan,

From your description of your 11 month tenure in command, it certainly sounds successful. It is unfortunate that an officer like yourself was removed from commanding a wing when you were clearly doing a good job.

They say what goes around comes around --perhaps you'll get another opportunity to command a wing or region in the future (assuming you'd want it again!).

As a general note, I'm not proposing a regulation setting age limits (upper or lower) for wing or region CCs -- but I am saying that it seems to me that the job calls for a person with a reasonable amount of "real life" experience.

I would also say, as I've commented before on this board, that our methodology for choosing (or removing) wing and region CCs leaves a lot to be desired.

It ought to be a decision reached by more than one person (next ecehlon CC), and there ought to be some input from the membership (not elections, but what about recommendations or nominations?); further, there should be a screening process with USAF involvement.

[afgeo4]

I can now rest easy knowing that the Historian is a Colonel while the Wing Commander is a LtCol.

Aren't grades in CAP wonderful?

No offense to the National Historian personally is meant. It's a comment on the promotion of the office, not personal achievements.

[John Bryan]

Col. Bryan,

From your description of your 11 month tenure in command, it certainly sounds successful. It is unfortunate that an officer like yourself was removed from commanding a wing when you were clearly doing a good job.

They say what goes around comes around --perhaps you'll get another opportunity to command a wing or region in the future (assuming you'd want it again!).

As a general note, I'm not proposing a regulation setting age limits (upper or lower) for wing or region CCs -- but I am saying that it seems to me that the job calls for a person with a reasonable amount of "real life" experience.

I would also say, as I've commented before on this board, that our methodology for choosing (or removing) wing and region CCs leaves a lot to be desired.

It ought to be a decision reached by more than one person (next ecehlon CC), and there ought to be some input from the membership (not elections, but what about recommendations or nominations?); further, there should be a screening process with USAF involvement.

Thanks for the kind words....now all I have to do is get you appoint Region Commander and I am set 

You are correct about the time and requirements for Wing Commander. To be honest, Wing Commander was the best "job" and the worst "job" I have had in CAP. As for doing it again.....I would never say never, but it is not on my current "things to do list".

One thing not said so far is the need for family support. Anyone wanting to be a Wing Commander, make sure your wife (husband) is willing to support you....it takes a lot of time away from family and fun/free time.

[flyguy06]

Col. Bryan,

From your description of your 11 month tenure in command, it certainly sounds successful. It is unfortunate that an officer like yourself was removed from commanding a wing when you were clearly doing a good job.

They say what goes around comes around --perhaps you'll get another opportunity to command a wing or region in the future (assuming you'd want it again!).

As a general note, I'm not proposing a regulation setting age limits (upper or lower) for wing or region CCs -- but I am saying that it seems to me that the job calls for a person with a reasonable amount of "real life" experience.

I would also say, as I've commented before on this board, that our methodology for choosing (or removing) wing and region CCs leaves a lot to be desired.

It ought to be a decision reached by more than one person (next ecehlon CC), and there ought to be some input from the membership (not elections, but what about recommendations or nominations?); further, there should be a screening process with USAF involvement.

I dont know about that one. I mean there is a thing called span of control and unity of Command. A Region Commander has to be allowed to command.

[John Bryan]

Col. Bryan,

From your description of your 11 month tenure in command, it certainly sounds successful. It is unfortunate that an officer like yourself was removed from commanding a wing when you were clearly doing a good job.

They say what goes around comes around --perhaps you'll get another opportunity to command a wing or region in the future (assuming you'd want it again!).

As a general note, I'm not proposing a regulation setting age limits (upper or lower) for wing or region CCs -- but I am saying that it seems to me that the job calls for a person with a reasonable amount of "real life" experience.

I would also say, as I've commented before on this board, that our methodology for choosing (or removing) wing and region CCs leaves a lot to be desired.

It ought to be a decision reached by more than one person (next ecehlon CC), and there ought to be some input from the membership (not elections, but what about recommendations or nominations?); further, there should be a screening process with USAF involvement.

I dont know about that one. I mean there is a thing called span of control and unity of Command. A Region Commander has to be allowed to command.

You have a good point about Region Commanders having the need to be allowed to command.....2 points:

1. Region CC is required to get the National CC's consent to appoint but not fire a Wing Commander. Why?

2.  As it stands now a Region Commander can fire without cause up to day 364 of a first year Wing Commanders term without appeal or review.....thats not only unfair but promotes the closed door political actions so many have spoken against on this forum. 

[Ned]

You have a good point about Region Commanders having the need to be allowed to command.....2 points:

1. Region CC is required to get the National CC's consent to appoint but not fire a Wing Commander. Why?

2.  As it stands now a Region Commander can fire without cause up to day 364 of a first year Wing Commanders term without appeal or review.....thats not only unfair but promotes the closed door political actions so many have spoken against on this forum. 

I think the point of a "probationary" first year is to make it fairly easy to make the change if it isn't going well early on in the term. 

It is always going be a challenge to find the balance between providing some protections for the wing commander and allowing a region or wing commander to make a needed change relatively quickly and easily.

You are certainly right that leaving total discretion to a region commander during the first year could reinforce "closed door political actions."  But the "system" such as it is, has two counterveilling protections.  First, the probationary period is only a year.  The remainder of a wing commander's term requires good cause for removal.  Second, region commanders that make improper removal decisions themselves face review by the national commander.  And this particular national commander appears to be committed to fair and equitable treatment of all of our members, including commanders at all levels.


Finally, it is only commanders who are also NB members (wing and region) that have this kind of protection in the first place.  Flight, squadron, and group commanders can be relieved in the discretion of the wing commander.  Similarly, directors of things like NCSAs, staff colleges, etc. (some of which are larger and more complex than some wings) can likewise be relieved without cause.

I have served a probationary period in most of my civilian jobs (e.g., police officer) and of course in my military career, my assignments were always totally within the discretion of my commander, even my unit command tours.

While there is always the possibility of abuse in any situation involving the exercise of a commanders' discretion, we try to design systems to minimize the problem and support commanders in their roles.

Ned Lee

[FW]

Finally, it is only commanders who are also NB members (wing and region) that have this kind of protection in the first place.  Flight, squadron, and group commanders can be relieved in the discretion of the wing commander.  Similarly, directors of things like NCSAs, staff colleges, etc. (some of which are larger and more complex than some wings) can likewise be relieved without cause.

While there is always the possibility of abuse in any situation involving the exercise of a commanders' discretion, we try to design systems to minimize the problem and support commanders in their role.

The MARB serves as the "system" to minimize the abuse of authority of any commander at any level.  It is able to review any claim of "abuse" and if found substantiated can give relief; even reinstatement.  

Good governance in CAP means holding to our regs and guidelines, our ethics and our core values.  It means having those checks and balances in place to let all members do their "job" without recrimination (recrimination does not mean accountability).

Next step;  giving finance committees some "independence" from the whims of the commander.   I think we will be seeing some major steps toward a more transparent and fear free CAP than in the past.  However, these changes will bring added responsibility and accountability to us all.

[John Bryan]

The MARB is like an appeals court....it does not try and find what is fair or right. It's job is to make sure the regs were followed. So if a Region CC fires a first year Wing CC "without cause" then it follows the reg and would be upheld. The Region CC would not have to prove that he/she did not fire the Wing CC for political reasons, in fact even if the Wing CC could prove he/she was fired for political reasons I doubt it would be over turned. Now, Wing CC who make it to day 366 and beyond have more protection.

My point is I do not think it is too much to ask that the firing of Wing CC (Corperate Officers/National Board Members) be done with a supportable reason. Subject to review from NHQ. Even in the first year, there should have to be cause to fire a Wing CC.

[Ned]

My point is I do not think it is too much to ask that the firing of Wing CC (Corperate Officers/National Board Members) be done with a supportable reason. Subject to review from NHQ. Even in the first year, there should have to be cause to fire a Wing CC.

John,

That is certainly a reasonable position, probably held by many folks.

(Especially first year wing commanders. )



Making that change would require a change to the CAP Constitution; which can only be changed by the BoG.



Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer

[FW]

^I agree.  There should be a reasonable cause to remove a 1st year wing/cc however,  no matter what the reason, there should be concurrence from the CAP/CC before it is done.  

The MARB has reviewed 1st year Wing/CCs removal and has the authority to reinstate IF it has found the removal was due to reasons like undue influence, retaliation or, discrimination.  

More importantly, the MARB will review and, if necessary reinstate any unit/cc who has been found to be removed for like cause, as well as failure of due process. Appointing/removing authority has a wide berth however, and the appellant has to prove the point.  The MARB does not rehear the case.

[MIKE]

I'd split this, but I don't know where to start.

[John Bryan]

I'd split this, but I don't know where to start.

True.....Maybe the topic should 1st year wing commanders have more protections from unfair or political firings.

Anyway ...sorry for going off topic....more to follow :angel:

[Camas]

I hope this isn't off topic but I gotta tell ya. Get away from the age thing and I have nothing but the deepest respect for any member who steps up to the plate and accepts a command position, whether squadron, group, wing or region. God bless you all.

[ZigZag911]

Even with my misgivings about over-youthful commanders, I have even greater respect for younger seniors and "senior citizen" seniors who accept command responisbility, often at a time in life when it is a greater burden than for us folks in our middle years.

[ZigZag911]

I dont know about that one. I mean there is a thing called span of control and unity of Command. A Region Commander has to be allowed to command.

Let the region CC make the choice (subject to NEC confirmation, or at least Nat'l CC) from a 'short list' of applicants vetted by a board (which should be appointed by Nat'l CC & CAP-USAF CC). The board chair should come from outside the region concerned.

[John Bryan]

Even with my misgivings about over-youthful commanders, I have even greater respect for younger seniors and "senior citizen" seniors who accept command responisbility, often at a time in life when it is a greater burden than for us folks in our middle years.

I know it has been stated that you only have to be 35 to be U.S. President.....almost everyone knows that Theodore Roosevelt was the youngest US President taking office at age 42.....

But the VP's have been even younger.....United State Vice President John Cabell Breckinridge was only 36 when he took office, he was elected at age 35 the minimum age required under the US constitution.

Willie Johnston earned the Medal of Honor at age 12.

My point is that you need to look at the person, not how many trips around the Sun they have made.   

[ricecakecm]

I became a Wing DO at age 24.  I was a Wing Ops Training Officer and temporary Stan/Eval Officer at 21.