A"What if" Thread... "Suppose CAPTALK got a C&D Order from National?"

[Major Carrales]

In terms of the various "Vanguard" threads, and the idea of the "monopoly" that exists there.  Some have reported that alternate vendors have been given notice to "stop operations."  This has got me thinking...

"Suppose CAPTALK got a C&D Order from National?"

While it is unlikely, it is possible.

What would the reaction to that be?  Would it be complied with?  Would it be enforceable?

[CASH172]

If all you're talking about is the uniform and item transactions that go on in the marketplace, then I don't believe it's enforceable.  It's not Captalk's operation and they're just providing a grounds for people to know of the specifics needs or items that people have.

[Pylon]

There is no basis for such a Cease and Desist order.  The public is free to talk about any matters that so concern them.  We are still civilians. 

Might I have to remove the word "Civil Air Patrol" from the header banner?  Probably.  Otherwise, Civil Air Patrol has no exclusive rights to discussion of Civil Air Patrol. Just the use of their name which doesn't fall under other protected status' (for example, Civil Air Patrol could not exercise their exclusive rights against the media, preventing them from printing the words Civil Air Patrol in a story about CAP).

[Major Carrales]

If all you're talking about is the uniform and item transactions that go on in the marketplace, then I don't believe it's enforceable.  It's not Captalk's operation and they're just providing a grounds for people to know of the specifics needs or items that people have.

What if it could be proved, or even just alleged, that discussion harmful to CAP's reputation (libelous and slanderous in nature) that resulted in "lost membership" or basic damage to was made publically visable and some court action was commenced?

Remember, in our civil jurisprudence today it sometimes sometimes is that even the hint of wrong doing, grounded in fact or not, can be damaging.  Allegation needn't be true to cause damage, or litigation.

[Major Carrales]

There is no basis for such a Cease and Desist order.  The public is free to talk about any matters that so concern them.  We are still civilians. 

Might I have to remove the word "Civil Air Patrol" from the header banner?  Probably.  Otherwise, Civil Air Patrol has no exclusive rights to discussion of Civil Air Patrol. Just the use of their name which doesn't fall under other protected status' (for example, Civil Air Patrol could not exercise their exclusive rights against the media, preventing them from printing the words Civil Air Patrol in a story about CAP).

Suppose some maven at CAPNHQ manages to dispell that and issues the letter anyway?

[Pylon]

Suppose some maven at CAPNHQ manages to dispell that and issues the letter anyway?

Then for giving them the idea, you'll chip in some your generous money to fund a lawyer to advise the site owners how to respond and proceed. 

What if it could be proved, or even just alleged, that discussion harmful to CAP's reputation (libelous and slanderous in nature) that resulted in "lost membership" or basic damage to was made publically visable and some court action was commenced?

Remember, in our civil jurisprudence today it sometimes sometimes is that even the hint of wrong doing, grounded in fact or not, can be damaging.  Allegation needn't be true to cause damage, or litigation.

The same could be said for aforementioned reference to the press.  For example, Civil Air Patrol could not sue AFA Magazine for reporting about the National Commander suspension, regardless of the harm it might have caused to CAP's reputation.

Furthermore, the posts remain the property of the authors, not of the CAPTalk website.

Finally, Cease and Desist letters are not orders.  They are requests.  It carries the exact same legal weight as you sending me a PM to knock off some behavior you didn't like.  It's a letter from one person to another.  I can ignore it.  If CAP, Inc. decides to file a frivilous and fatally flawed lawsuit, then that's where The Sparky Carrales Fund for the Defense of CAPTalk would come in and you'd pour out your pockets to keep up our archive of discussions on service caps. 

[Major Carrales]

Suppose some maven at CAPNHQ manages to dispell that and issues the letter anyway?

Then for giving them the idea, you'll chip in some your generous money to fund a lawyer to advise the site owners how to respond and proceed. 

And you know I would be there because I fight tyrany and agendism where it find it! 

What if it could be proved, or even just alleged, that discussion harmful to CAP's reputation (libelous and slanderous in nature) that resulted in "lost membership" or basic damage to was made publically visable and some court action was commenced?

Remember, in our civil jurisprudence today it sometimes sometimes is that even the hint of wrong doing, grounded in fact or not, can be damaging.  Allegation needn't be true to cause damage, or litigation.

The same could be said for aforementioned reference to the press.  For example, Civil Air Patrol could not sue AFA Magazine for reporting about the National Commander suspension, regardless of the harm it might have caused to CAP's reputation.

Furthermore, the posts remain the property of the authors, not of the CAPTalk website.

Finally, Cease and Desist letters are not orders.  They are requests.  It carries the exact same legal weight as you sending me a PM to knock off some behavior you didn't like.  It's a letter from one person to another.  I can ignore it.  If CAP, Inc. decides to file a frivilous and fatally flawed lawsuit, then that's where The Sparky Carrales Fund for the Defense of CAPTalk would come in and you'd pour out your pockets to keep up our archive of discussions on service caps. 

Ha!   

An injunction from a court is rather easy to obtain since the offense is in the eye of the beholder.  As an officer of the court, the lawyers or judge would throw it out (at least I would).  But, if the powers that be are truly so POWERFUL, then such an action would be an easy and common modus operandi.  Thus, if someone "had it out for" CAPTALK, they could do this.  In all seriousness, would you stop...or fight it?

[Pylon]

In all seriousness, would you stop...or fight it?

I am not the only person involved in the running of CAPTalk.  In all seriousness, I doubt any action or response would be taken until we had the chance to discuss options with a lawyer of our choosing, and amongst ourselves.

[Major Carrales]

In all seriousness, would you stop...or fight it?

I am not the only person involved in the running of CAPTalk.  In all seriousness, I doubt any action or response would be taken until we had the chance to discuss options with a lawyer of our choosing, and amongst ourselves.

How about if a similar thing happened to some other CAP related forum, say CAPBLOG, FlyingMinuteMen or the CAP heavy CADETSTUFF.ORG, or to a "counter CAP" forum like New of the Force or CAP Insights?

What happens to one, would happen to them all...in time anyway. 

[NIN]

How about if a similar thing happened to some other CAP related forum, say CAPBLOG, FlyingMinuteMen or the CAP heavy CADETSTUFF.ORG, or to a "counter CAP" forum like New of the Force or CAP Insights?

What happens to one, would happen to them all...in time anyway. 

Since CadetStuff is not specifically about Civil Air Patrol, 'twould be a specious argument.  It would be like issuing a cease & desist letter to the local Wendys since you go there after the meeting and talk trash about your squadron commander, or attempting to C&D the parking lot of the school you meet in to keep the after-meeting bull sessions to a minimum.

You really can't sue the venue.

[Major Carrales]

How about if a similar thing happened to some other CAP related forum, say CAPBLOG, FlyingMinuteMen or the CAP heavy CADETSTUFF.ORG, or to a "counter CAP" forum like New of the Force or CAP Insights?

What happens to one, would happen to them all...in time anyway. 

Since CadetStuff is not specifically about Civil Air Patrol, 'twould be a specious argument.  It would be like issuing a cease & desist letter to the local Wendys since you go there after the meeting and talk trash about your squadron commander, or attempting to C&D the parking lot of the school you meet in to keep the after-meeting bull sessions to a minimum.

You really can't sue the venue.

True, however, the disruption caused by the "specious motions" would greatly interfere with CADETSTUFF.  Plus, one could shop around for a judge that would issue the Order on the grounds that some 80% or more of the discussion is about CAP and underaged minors.

The point of all this is...

Is CAP National Command even powerful enough, or could ever be corrupt enough,  to do something like that?  What are their limits?

What about anti/counter CAP websites?

[Eagle400]

The point of all this is...

Is CAP National Command even powerful enough, or could ever be corrupt enough,  to do something like that?  What are their limits?

Oh, I'm sure they've got the ability.  Just because general Pineda's been suspended doesn't mean general Bowling or some other high-ranking officer doesn't have the ability to send a cease and desist letter to CAP-themed blogs and sites. 

What about anti/counter CAP websites?

I'm still looking for them.   

[SDF_Specialist]

If CAPTalk ever got a C&D, then that would prove right there what kind of mind frame we all believe some member are under. If it ever came down to that, I would leave CAP so fast. I came to serve in the three missions of CAP, not under micro-management.

[Lancer]

I know I'd like to file a Cease and Desist letter... 

[dougsnow]

Personally

I think that NHQ has bigger fish to fry then worry about a bulletin board system; which means watch out

[ZigZag911]

While the moderators & administrators consulted legal counsel, the first person who ought to receive a copy of any such missive is Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa, an active member of the CAP Congressional Squadron....I bet he'd have something to say to the National leadership about the U.S. Constitution and freedom of speech!

[SDF_Specialist]

While the moderators & administrators consulted legal counsel, the first person who ought to receive a copy of any such missive is Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa, an active member of the CAP Congressional Squadron....I bet he'd have something to say to the National leadership about the U.S. Constitution and freedom of speech!

What freedom of speech? The one that's extremely limited to the American People? Oh yes, that freedom of speech.

[Skyray]

I think that even as we speak, the BoG is solving the biggest problem that we are likely to have with C & D and freedom of speech.  A more realistic threat from my perspective is a demand from NHQ for the identity behind a certain stage name that they don't like.  You have a right to freedom of speech, you don't have a right to membership.  And an earlier poster is correct; Bowling is still up there.

[Nomex Maximus]

Sooo... has anyone gotten thrown out of CAP for something they wrote here? <nervously looks over shoudler>

[Skyray]

Sooo... has anyone gotten thrown out of CAP for something they wrote here? <nervously looks over shoudler>

The short answer to your question is YES!

At least two that I know of.

[wingnut]

I think we may be heading into new waters, I am a retread in CAP former Cadet from the 70s and a Veteran of both the Air Force and the Army. I dislike the attitude of some of the "OLD GUARD", the guys who "DO as I Say, And not as I do",  we as an organization tread on thin Ice sometimes, with membership boards, 2Bs and all that. What worries me is if we look at the world of the 21st century; Civil Air Patrol cannot get mired in petty conflicts, we should be run like a modern day corporation in business practices, and as the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, the Air Force and our Country needs us now more than ever. Having some people try to run rough shod on free speech will create chaos. What we need is for HQ to listen to the "Thin Blue Line", from what I see this is about the only forum for us worker bees.

Let's just be professional and use common courtesy

[BlackKnight]

Sooo... has anyone gotten thrown out of CAP for something they wrote here? <nervously looks over shoudler>

I'm still trying to remove the rubber cement that was dumped all over my keyboard from the last time I innocently posted an "inconvenient factoid" from the CAP public domain that apparently proved embarassing to he whom shall not be named. It all depends on who's in your chain of command.   

[Chappy]

There are those who find a correlary between the Ministry of Magic and National HQ.

[Short Field]

Trademark or copywrite infringement can force a change to the name of the site.  However, the forum content is pretty much protected.  Ford Motor Company went after a site that supported the Ford Superduty trucks.  The site had to change its name (and URL) but everything else stayed the same. 

However, comments that individuals make on these forums can always come back to haunt them...