What is USCAP Culture?

[RiverAux]

Is ours? Is there redundancy between CAP cadet corp and AFJROTC? 

The AF uses CAP as a way around limits on JROTC enrollment agreed to by the other services. 

The "AF loves us for our cadets" argument is losing ground every day as the AF downsizes.  They've got 100K in JROTC and 30K in CAP and are cutting their own staff all the time.  Recruiting needs are going down, so why keep sponsoring JROTC and CAP at cold war levels?

[Eagle400]

With the greatest respect for Col Critelli I must, in turn, disagree with him: for the foreseeable future, USAF is going to hang onto CAP tenaciously, for one simple reason: the Cadet Program.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!  The Cadet Program is the only reason why the Air Force hangs onto CAP tenaciously.  AFAM's are made possible by the Cadet Program.  Without CP, CAP would lose the AFAM's and any other support the Air Force has to give.

Providing stellar recruits to the Air Force is by and large CAP's greatest contribution to the Air Force, and the leaders of both organizations know it.  They also know that it is the cadets who set the standard of excellence in CAP and give it a good image.     

Lose the Cadet Program, and you lose all Air Force support.       

[RiverAux]

[The Cadet Program is the only reason why the Air Force hangs onto CAP tenaciously.  AFAM's are made possible by the Cadet Program.  Without CP, CAP would lose the AFAM's and any other support the Air Force has to give.

Hmm, they have a funny way of showing it --- compare the amount AF provides for ES training vs the amount the provide for cadet o-rides in your wing and tell me that the only reason we have planes is for cadets. 

Take a look at the national CAP budget:
ES: 20 million
AE: 1.8 million
Cadet & Sr Member activities: 2.9 million
DDR: .4 million

The AF certainly likes the cadet program, but they sure don't fund it as if it is their greatest priority. 

[ZigZag911]

Just because USAF likes cadet program does not translate, automatically, into them throwing piles of money at it.

As the Air Force continues to downsize (it amazes me that they & the Navy can do so in war time!) Nick & RiverAux may indeed be correct....when combined with CAP's shrinking numbers, it may come down to diminishing needs & returns.

I reiterate that the US Army may be waiting in the wings to welcome us back into the fold, sponsored & supported by some combination of JrROTC, Army Aviation and the National Guard Bureau.

In the short term, while the war is on, this may further curtail cadet membership....parents may not find it an attractive idea.

For our historical heritage (I guess it comes down to nostalgia & sentiment) I prefer to see us sponsored by USAF....I think.

Perhaps a change would be good for CAP; only time will tell.

My ultimate personal preference is that CAP be sponsored by/partnered with whatever institution or organization makes it most possible for us to serve the nation.

[SARMedTech]

What would be the result of a complete split between CAP and the USAF? Could we be entirely self-supporting? Would we be able to continue things like SAR and ES, since our SAR operations are currently tasked by the AF. It seems a little bit like we are getting pushed around because they control the cash, give us our missions etc. Could CAP be independant and still maintain SAR operations, etc? Would emancipation cause more troubles than it would solve? Could CAP establish a working relationship with the National Guard rather than the Air Force?

[RiverAux]

What would be the result of a complete split between CAP and the USAF? Could we be entirely self-supporting? Would we be able to continue things like SAR and ES, since our SAR operations are currently tasked by the AF. It seems a little bit like we are getting pushed around because they control the cash, give us our missions etc. Could CAP be independant and still maintain SAR operations, etc? Would emancipation cause more troubles than it would solve? Could CAP establish a working relationship with the National Guard rather than the Air Force?

No.

[ZigZag911]

Divorce -- emancipation -- complete split -- call it what you will is a bad idea.

We need the support of federal agencies, preferably in the military or HLS departments.

Putting us under another branch of military, closely affiliated with National Guard, might work.

Cutting us loose turns us into another version of the Red Cross -- without the immediate 'brand' recognition, but with the same need to conduct constant fund-raising to carry out any activities at all.

[sandman]

Well,
Here's a good article to read from the Joint Forces Quarterly (4th quarter 2006):

http://www.sgaus.org/VolMilOrgAssetByBankus.pdf

The magazine finds itself on many high ranking officers desks throughout the uniformed services (gleaned this off the State Guard Association's website).

Comments?
Will articles like this affect cultural "norms" of CAP?

[Tubacap]

I personally like the connotation that we should be doing more.  I also think that there is a push to use us more for HLS missions, and it is a matter of testing the waters to see how we'll do first, then give us more missions.  I'm not sure if the CD program started that way, but we sure do a lot of flying for it.

[SARMedTech]

What would be the result of a complete split between CAP and the USAF? Could we be entirely self-supporting? Would we be able to continue things like SAR and ES, since our SAR operations are currently tasked by the AF. It seems a little bit like we are getting pushed around because they control the cash, give us our missions etc. Could CAP be independant and still maintain SAR operations, etc? Would emancipation cause more troubles than it would solve? Could CAP establish a working relationship with the National Guard rather than the Air Force?

No.

Is that blanket no for all suggestions or do you have one in particular that you object to, and, if you do, why dont you offer some suggestions as alternatives?

[RiverAux]

No to all your questions.  CAP could not possibly exist as a national organization outside of the USAF, at least not while having a large fleet of corporate airplanes and vehicles.  The cadet program could probably muddle along without national support (the local units don't get any real national support anyway), but not the ES program as currently configured.

I don't see a need to provide alternatives as I see no need to move away from the AF and I am one of the ones that would advocate for closer relations than we have now. 

[SARMedTech]

Well,
Here's a good article to read from the Joint Forces Quarterly (4th quarter 2006):

http://www.sgaus.org/VolMilOrgAssetByBankus.pdf

The magazine finds itself on many high ranking officers desks throughout the uniformed services (gleaned this off the State Guard Association's website).

Comments?
Will articles like this affect cultural "norms" of CAP?

This article makes some really good points except it sort of lost me when it referred to the USCGAUX and CAP as "fledgling."

[SARMedTech]

No to all your questions.  CAP could not possibly exist as a national organization outside of the USAF, at least not while having a large fleet of corporate airplanes and vehicles.  The cadet program could probably muddle along without national support (the local units don't get any real national support anyway), but not the ES program as currently configured.

I don't see a need to provide alternatives as I see no need to move away from the AF and I am one of the ones that would advocate for closer relations than we have now. 

It seems to me that having a closer relationship with the USAF is an issue for them and not for CAP. Also, if we have a large fleet of corporate planes and vehicles, why would that make us less self-sufficient than more so? And I agree that the ES as currently configured couldnt exist outside the auspices of the AF, but that doesnt mean that it couldnt exist. Most non- CAP folks dont know we are "part" of the AF anyway

[DeputyDog]

What would be the result of a complete split between CAP and the USAF?

CAP not doing anything. We have already been partially split for the convenience of the Air Force. Since we are now only the Air Force Auxiliary when on AFAMs, what would we be doing if we were never the Air Force Auxiliary?

Cadet Programs? Maybe, but with alot less support. AE? I could see that. ES? Would disappear.

Could we be entirely self-supporting?

If we did enough bake sales and begging. But then, if we were completely divorced from the Air Force we wouldn't need the 550 (or so) airframes or all of the corporate vans, etc. We'd be self-supporting only if we drastically reduced our budget.

Would we be able to continue things like SAR and ES, since our SAR operations are currently tasked by the AF.

That would entirely depend on the wing's relationship with the state and local agencies. However, I would see us not doing ES functions at all.

It seems a little bit like we are getting pushed around because they control the cash, give us our missions etc.

I don't see it that way. I see it as more of the Air Force demanding accountability. Any government agency or entity demands that.

Could CAP be independant and still maintain SAR operations, etc?

Again, entirely up to the wing's relationship with the state and local governments and agencies. I would really doubt it, however.

Would emancipation cause more troubles than it would solve?

It would not solve any problems, real or perceived.

Could CAP establish a working relationship with the National Guard rather than the Air Force?

That has already been discussed on another thread. What would be the benefit to the National Guard Bureau?

[DeputyDog]

Also, if we have a large fleet of corporate planes and vehicles, why would that make us less self-sufficient than more so?

Can two million dollars cover the insurance, maintenance and purchase replacements for all of the airframes and corporate vehicles when they wear out? Don't forget our radios. It's a financial issue.

And I agree that the ES as currently configured couldnt exist outside the auspices of the AF, but that doesnt mean that it couldnt exist.

How? What would CAP be doing without the airframes, vehicles and radios?

Most non- CAP folks dont know we are "part" of the AF anyway

That doesn't matter or affect what we do. Most people don't realize that the United States Marine Corps is under the Department of the Navy either.

[RiverAux]

If we were not part of the AF, we would not be getting any funding for maintenance or purchasing of new aircraft.  We would not be getting funded for the vast majority of our missions.  We would not be getting new vehicle, radios, etc.  CAP could not maintain this infrastructure based solely on member dues and whatever measely corporate donations we get or even on the limited amount of state funding we get now, most of which would probably disappear without our AF relationship. 

But, CAP could continue on without the airplanes and vehicles doing nothing but the basic cadet program, just like the Boy Scouts and a host of other youth groups do.  We would not be able to continue doing ES.   

[SARMedTech]

  We would not be able to continue doing ES.   

Other, much smaller, non-profit organizations manage to provide ES quite effectively.

[RiverAux]

Not on a nation wide basis with 500+ airplanes and nearly 1000 vehicles.  Once our existing planes and vehicles wore out they would not be replaced and we would need to exist on the same level as most other local groups depending entirely on member-owned resources.

[DeputyDog]

Other, much smaller, non-profit organizations manage to provide ES quite effectively.

The key is much smaller. Do those same organizations do cadet programs as well as AE?

[SARMedTech]

Other, much smaller, non-profit organizations manage to provide ES quite effectively.

The key is much smaller. Do those same organizations do cadet programs as well as AE?

No they do not, and if you look at my post in response to RiverAux's last posting about being able to maintain ES, that is what we were discussing. An organization devoted to ES has no need for a cadet or AE program. One of the things I would do if I were suddenly made CAP NC is to focus the organization and to determine what we are really about. Some folks says its AE...to me, thats what museums, etc are for, though i do like rocketry, etc.  Cadet programs and the like can be filled by ROTC, etc. Simply because I am an ES geek, getting my MS degree in ES and disaster management, I would chose to focus CAP more on ES because that is my balliwick.  Others may wish to educate cadets or the public about aerospace topics...thats not my thing. What I think needs to happen is that each of the three programs needs to be more sharply focused. I know there is a need for a certain amount of integration, but sometimes it feels like we are trying to figure out how model rocketry fits into ES. I think the mission statements of each aspect of CAP could do with a good 21st century overhaul. As it stands, there are many who make those of us who have no use for AE or CP or ES for that matter feel as though we are somehow not doing our duty by the groups with whom we chose not to interact. My squadron has a fairly large cadet contingent. I like working with them, but I like working with them primarily in the field of ES. I like to go out and watch them fire rockets and hope to work with them at encampments as my quals allow, but other than that, I am most interested in getting them involved in ES since that is my field. I dont think there is anything wrong with color guard competitions and the like, they just dont light my fuse, as it were so I chose not to pay a whole lot of attention to them except I do like to see the cadets faces when they talk about an encampment experience, etc. I worked as an educator for many years before becoming involved in ES/EMS and quite frankly have had my fill of teaching unless it is in one of those fields. I dont think that makes me evil, it just says that I have a focus on one aspect of CAP, would like to see it improve and dont pay much attention to the other two. Thats all. I have to say that I truly believe that ES does and could to a much greater extent offer the greatest benefit to the general public, ie people not interested in being cadets to train to go into the military, etc. I do enjoy interacting with our cadets after they come back from HMRS, seeing what they have learned, explaining things that might have gotten by them, teaching them new little "medical tricks" like imaginative ways to use the CAT tourniquet. I just think ES provides the most bang for the buck and disagree that the AF only keeps us around for the cadet program when we perform between 85 and 95% of SAR missions tasked by them (number varies depending on source of statistic).