What is your definition of "Cadet Run?"

[mikeylikey]

^  I have "imported" C/LtCol's into newly formed SQD's/flights.  Makes no sense to just pick one cadet with no experience over another cadet with no experience to fill the position.  I must also say that I believe those Cadets that are in college make better Cadet Commanders.  Possibly just an observation that is unique to my area.

[jimmydeanno]

I must also say that I believe those Cadets that are in college make better Cadet Commanders.  Possibly just an observation that is unique to my area.

What makes them better?  Is it the increased age? Maturity? Other? Combination of all?  I think it would be ideal if all C/Cols had 7 years of experience, but that doesn't happen.  I really would like to hear more personal experiences involving all these scenarios, you can leave out the names of course...It is one thing to read about how things "should" be done in the regs, but another to see how they are actually implimented, and the reasoning behind the decisions.

(unless you're afraid of the black van...)

[LtCol White]

I must also say that I believe those Cadets that are in college make better Cadet Commanders.  Possibly just an observation that is unique to my area.

What makes them better?  Is it the increased age? Maturity? Other? Combination of all?  I think it would be ideal if all C/Cols had 7 years of experience, but that doesn't happen.  I really would like to hear more personal experiences involving all these scenarios, you can leave out the names of course...It is one thing to read about how things "should" be done in the regs, but another to see how they are actually implimented, and the reasoning behind the decisions.

(unless you're afraid of the black van...)

Ask away and I'll be happy to share as much as you need.

[ZigZag911]

Bringing in a couple of experienced cadet officers and NCOs to a unit with mostly new and inexperienced cadets is an excellent approach, where the personnel needed are available and distances are not prohibitive.

Putting one 'on top' too soon can indeed have negative consequences....which is where the CC & DCC come in to keep motivating their cadet leadership to advance.

We always told the cadet leaders that there first duty was to lead by example in all things -- including advancement.

Back in the early 80s our squadron had a complete turnover in a very brief span of time....as DCC I found myself leading drill again for the first time since my own cadet days....after about two months I gradually started handing control during drill over to the cadets, letting them drill the flight by turns, under close supervision by seniors....kind of following the medical school model: "see one, do one, teach one".

As some of them began moving up the NCO ranks, more and more responsibility passed from us to them.

It can be done successfully, but the seniors need to keep firmly in mind that their purpose is to work themselves out of a job as quickly as is reasonably possible....and we always had a cadet in charge of the flight....for awhile we kept shuffling the roles around (flight commander, flight sergeant, squad leaders) much as is done in basic training.

[Psicorp]

Great, we all seem to be on the same page about varying our direct instruction based on the situation we have in our squadrons, but what do you do when your highest ranking cadet is say a C/CMSgt.  Say this C/CMSgt is mature enough and capable enough of operating at a more administrative C/CC level.

Would you advocate having the cadet serve as the C/CC even though the program recommends that position for a C/Lt Col?  Would you say this is more of a time for the DCC to "play" C/CC and keep the C/CMSgt as a C/Flt CC or C/1Sgt?

If you do put the C/CMSgt as a C/CC what does that leave them later on in the program to work towards (besides say CAC Chair).  What types of alternatives would you provide to ensure this cadet doesn't get bored as a C/Flt CC or the like if they are capable of much more...?

If it were me in that situation, I'd probably make the C/CMSgt a 1st Sgt.  That position would make more sense, at least until he got his Mitchell.   It's really just semantics, though.  If he's your highest ranking Cadet, regardless of what you call his position, he's still at the top of the totem pole.

[jimmydeanno]

^But as a 1Sgt you limit their role to not include what a C/CC does...yes, they may be at the top of the 'totem pole' but their job is 1Sgt, not C/CC...

[Psicorp]

^But as a 1Sgt you limit their role to not include what a C/CC does...yes, they may be at the top of the 'totem pole' but their job is 1Sgt, not C/CC...

Good point, but I would do that for for two reasons:  Keep the position of C/CC for Cadet Officers, give the C/CMSgt another reason to want to get his Mitchell.  Since all of your Cadets are in the enlisted grades, have Flight Sergeants rather than Flight Commanders as well.  What better way to prepare the younger Cadets for leadership roles than to see those positions being held by someone who can do the job?  Anything has to be better than the "sink or swim" mentality I've seen employed far too often.

[ZigZag911]

I understand the desire to hold 'cadet officer' positions open as motivational tools, but practically speaking, a lot of this is semantics....a 1Sgt & 2 Flt Sgts as your 'staff'  are, in everything but name, cadet commander & flight commanders.

Now, you might not expect as much out of them in the NCO roles as in officer positions....but when it comes right down to it, they're your cadet leadership.....call them High Commissioner and Deputy Chiefs of Mission, but the job is substantially the same!

[jimmydeanno]

^unless someone above is doing those tasks assigned to the "higher positions."  This plays into the "role of the DCC" and back to the first question.  If your DCC is doing everything that the C/CC and C/Flt CC are supposed to be doing to limit the responsibilities of the C/Flt Sgt and C/1Sgt, then it's not the same.

[ZigZag911]

^unless someone above is doing those tasks assigned to the "higher positions."  This plays into the "role of the DCC" and back to the first question.  If your DCC is doing everything that the C/CC and C/Flt CC are supposed to be doing to limit the responsibilities of the C/Flt Sgt and C/1Sgt, then it's not the same.

I'm probably showing my age here...I was a cadet in the early 70s....but I have a philosophical problem with the DCC acting as cadet commander....I'm just uncomfortable with the idea....performing some of the functions, especially planning and immediate supervision of the NCO leaders, I can accept...I can even see not filling in the 'officer' slots until you have some Mitchells....but the DCC or any senior serving in lieu of the cadet commander, getting out in front of the cadets and essentially behaving like a cadet officer disturbs me -- there is too much likelihood of a blurring of roles and boundaries.

[mikeylikey]

^unless someone above is doing those tasks assigned to the "higher positions."  This plays into the "role of the DCC" and back to the first question.  If your DCC is doing everything that the C/CC and C/Flt CC are supposed to be doing to limit the responsibilities of the C/Flt Sgt and C/1Sgt, then it's not the same.

I'm probably showing my age here...I was a cadet in the early 70s....but I have a philosophical problem with the DCC acting as cadet commander....I'm just uncomfortable with the idea....performing some of the functions, especially planning and immediate supervision of the NCO leaders, I can accept...I can even see not filling in the 'officer' slots until you have some Mitchells....but the DCC or any senior serving in lieu of the cadet commander, getting out in front of the cadets and essentially behaving like a cadet officer disturbs me -- there is too much likelihood of a blurring of roles and boundaries.

Wow...I hope thats not going on.  So it would be like "oh great here comes the cadet Commander, LtCol Smith, he's like 80 years old!". 

[jimmydeanno]

Great scenario...you are a new squadron, you only have 10 C/Amn.  They all joined at the same time and have about a month in.  Are you going to divy out the jobs so you have a C/CC that is an C/Amn?  Probably not. 

Since all those positions are vacant, someone is still responsible for ensuring that those responsibilities are attended to.  Since C/Amn should be focusing on how to lead themselves, these aditional duties are defaulted onto the CP staff.  They are still the DCC, not the C/CC.

It doesn't mean that the DCC is acting like a cadet, but performing duties that are typically assigned to a cadet.  IMO, the DCC and CP staff should "pick up the slack" so to speak. 

It really infuriates me when I see a C/SrA from some podunk squadron calling himself a C/1Sgt.  How are you a First SERGEANT as a C/Sra?  It get's even better when they decide to wear the C/1Sgt Diamond above their 3 stripes...   Don't you think that grade appropriate roles matter?(question not directed at anyone in particular...)

[MIKE]

It really infuriates me when I see a C/SrA from some podunk squadron calling himself a C/1Sgt.  How are you a First SERGEANT as a C/Sra?  It get's even better when they decide to wear the C/1Sgt Diamond above their 3 stripes...

Shouldn't be happening anymore.

2-4. e. ... However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant. Cadets serving in this special duty are authorized to wear the first sergeant diamond insignia.

Don't you think that grade appropriate roles matter?(question not directed at anyone in particular...)

Preaching to the choir.

[ELTHunter]

I have been in a scenario much like this one, where a there was a gap between several older, experienced cadets that left the squadron at once and handed it over to younger, inexperienced ones.  I have always had a designated C/CC even if they were a C/A1C.  I might have to "hold their hand" and basically tell them step-by-step how to do their job until they understood and were confident they could do it.  Gradually, you move back into an "oversight and consultation" position.  I always tried to maintain the cadet organization chain-of-command.  Otherwise, they get used to coming straight to you (the DCC) instead of going through their own "officers".

Great scenario...you are a new squadron, you only have 10 C/Amn.  They all joined at the same time and have about a month in.  Are you going to divy out the jobs so you have a C/CC that is an C/Amn?  Probably not. 

Since all those positions are vacant, someone is still responsible for ensuring that those responsibilities are attended to.  Since C/Amn should be focusing on how to lead themselves, these aditional duties are defaulted onto the CP staff.  They are still the DCC, not the C/CC.

It doesn't mean that the DCC is acting like a cadet, but performing duties that are typically assigned to a cadet.  IMO, the DCC and CP staff should "pick up the slack" so to speak. 

It really infuriates me when I see a C/SrA from some podunk squadron calling himself a C/1Sgt.  How are you a First SERGEANT as a C/Sra?  It get's even better when they decide to wear the C/1Sgt Diamond above their 3 stripes...   Don't you think that grade appropriate roles matter?(question not directed at anyone in particular...)

[ZigZag911]

Great scenario...you are a new squadron, you only have 10 C/Amn.  They all joined at the same time and have about a month in.  Are you going to divy out the jobs so you have a C/CC that is an C/Amn?  Probably not. 

Since all those positions are vacant, someone is still responsible for ensuring that those responsibilities are attended to.  Since C/Amn should be focusing on how to lead themselves, these aditional duties are defaulted onto the CP staff.  They are still the DCC, not the C/CC.

It doesn't mean that the DCC is acting like a cadet, but performing duties that are typically assigned to a cadet.  IMO, the DCC and CP staff should "pick up the slack" so to speak. 

It really infuriates me when I see a C/SrA from some podunk squadron calling himself a C/1Sgt.  How are you a First SERGEANT as a C/Sra?  It get's even better when they decide to wear the C/1Sgt Diamond above their 3 stripes...   Don't you think that grade appropriate roles matter?(question not directed at anyone in particular...)

Put this way, it makes sense.....the goal is to develop internal leadership in a reasonable amount of time, allowing the cadets to grow naturally, and not dumping too much responsibility or authority on any of them too soon.

And you are correct, a 1 Sgt diamond on any cadet below C/MSgt is not desirable.

[jimmydeanno]

Ahhh, our meeting last night just made me think of this again...we meet on an AFB, and our relationship with the AF is very good - they love us. (Forgive me, this may be a hard read )

Most of the time (9 out of 10 dentists prefer type), we can trust that our cadets are going to run things and plan things pretty well.  Theres always something that gets left out.

Well, we have a new DCC.  The C/CC usually sends the monthly schedule to the DCC, but this week had for the leadership block "surprise."  Now, MY first instinct is "UH-OH," but this didn't raise any flags for the new DCC.

Well, that time in the schedule came up, and the leadership block began.  The cadets were learning about varying styles of leadership depending on the situation, and I must admit, the way it was being done was rather interesting. The cadet staff set up different live action scenarios to show the difference.  The "Authoritarian" one was the problem (no, not hazing).  The cadets decided that to show when authoritarian leadership was called for, they would use a "combat" model, with sound effects.  So they dragged out some big speakers and started blaring M-16 fire, helicopters, bombs dropping, explosions, etc.

Did I mention that our meeting place is within sight of the guard shack?

Fortunately one of us had enough sense to head the guard off at the pass and let them know what the noise was before it erupted into something it shouldn't have.  Cadets learned their lesson after a good stern talking to...

So I guess I re-itterate for you seniors...don't allow too much to go unchecked when the cadets are "running" things.

[IceNine]

Cadet Run can take on any combination of the above listed interpretations the major deciding factor all comes down to 1 question, How strong is the cadet staff?  if you have cadets that are super strong leaders and have a track record of making good command decisions there is no reason for a senior to step in (with the obvious exceptions safety, moral issues, etc) When I was the C/CC for my unit I had that authority what I decided was the answer and it was a rare exception that I was overruled.  On the other end of the spectrum we currently have no cadets capable of making even half-baked command decisions so any thing the cadets want to do is run through the DCC.  And we have had everything in between.  The important thing to keep in mind is that there have to be local operating parameters typically in the form of an SUI to ensure that everything is done correctly.  AND, there must be time tested good judgement on the part of the cadets.  So, give the cadets just enough rope not to hang themselves and shorten and lengthen it as needed.

[ZigZag911]

Well, we have a new DCC.  The C/CC usually sends the monthly schedule to the DCC, but this week had for the leadership block "surprise."  Now, MY first instinct is "UH-OH," but this didn't raise any flags for the new DCC.

Cadets learned their lesson after a good stern talking to...

I hope the new DCC learned some lessons too:
1) ALL plans need prior review
2) commanders HATE "surprises"!

[flyguy06]

I see my role as the Deputy Commander of cadets similar to that of a College ROTC instrcutor. My job is to teach, advise, and consel (TAC)  cadets.

cadets learn to lead, and we as cadet program officers teach the leaders the correct way to lead. I disagree withthe current policy on hazing in CAP and  I think the whole hazing issues stemed from a lack of proper Senior Member supervision. SM's just let cadet officers and NCO's run the cadet program without giving them proper guidence on how tolead. and it got out of hand and some cadet officers went to far thus we have the restrictions thatwe have today.

Senior Members should show cadets how to lead. they should show by example. By wearing the proper military uniform that cadets wear. I dont agree with SM's that work with cadets thatwear the blue shirt/grey slacks uniform. How can you inspect cadets or teach cadets if you cant wear what they wear. if you are outr of shpe then get into shape. Do PTR with the cadets lead by example is my philosophy. If I expect a cadet to do something I am willing and ABLE to doit myself. Thats what leaership is.

Senior member leaders should also be able to teach cadets to drill properly. I see so may times on my visits to other units cadets drilling wrong or just making stuff up as they go along. I have no problems standing in front of a formation and demonstrating the correct way to march, drill or condcut PT.

The cadet Program should be cadet run by Senior member supervised. Too many times All SM's do is sit around and make sure nobdy gets hurt. I refuse to take time out of my busy schedule to babysit asnyone. If I am going to train, then let me train.

[mikeylikey]

^^  Agree!  ROTC instructors do not babysit, they teach the proper way of doing something ONCE, then show the location of the instructions in case the CADETS forget what was taught. 

We could easily do that!