QuoteCAPR 20-1 (E) 47
Cadet Squad Leader
Responsible for the supervision and training of the cadet squad, to include:
Satisfactory performance during formations and ceremonies.
Military bearing.
Morale.
The cadet squad leaders should be familiar with CAP directives as listed in CAPP 52-14.
On page 23, the cadet organization chart shows the following: --- Flight Commander---flight Sgt----squad leader
Wouldn't this be a element leader?
Where are the element leaders in that portion of the chart?
When would there be a difference in a flight Sgt and squad leader?
How many squads are in a flight?
What comprises a squad (individuals)?
etc?
Spacing - MIKE
Squad Leader is the old term for Element Leader.
All criteria of an element apply to a squad in terms of number of cadets, how many comprise a flight, etc.
Flight Sergeant and Element leader are two different positions, there is a difference between the two. For clarification see CAPP 52-15: Cadet Staff Guide (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf)
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2008, 07:29:34 PM
Squad Leader is the old term for Element Leader.
All criteria of an element apply to a squad in terms of number of cadets, how many comprise a flight, etc.
Flight Sergeant and Element leader are two different positions, there is a difference between the two. For clarification see CAPP 52-15: Cadet Staff Guide (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf)
Thanks... I do know the difference between a Flight Sergeant and Element Leader... You said "old term", so does that mean it would be safe/legal other wise to use todays terminology of element leader on our Cadet Org chart, or do I need to wait until the reg is changed ::)?
I would consider it "safe" to use the "new term" in your org chart. The last update was in 2000, but it was most likely written by someone who has never been to a CAP meeting or read AFM 36-2203 and left the old term in there when updating.
The CAPP 52-15 was written last year by someone who was a Spaatz Cadet, former Squadron Commander and former Region DCP. Since it takes national board approval to change regulations, the pamphlet was written instead. ;)
I'd use that for your cadet organizational structure instead of the regulation.
Sure it's safe......it's not like someone will come and arrest you or take away your birthday if you call your element leaders (the proper term), squad leaders (the wrong term but is still in the reg).
Heck....no one will gripe if you call them team leaders, troop leaders, stick leaders, guys up fromt, or any other term.
Following the regulations is a good habbit....but don't be a regs robot.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 07, 2008, 07:43:17 PM
Sure it's safe......it's not like someone will come and arrest you or take away your birthday if you call your element leaders (the proper term), squad leaders (the wrong term but is still in the reg).
Heck....no one will gripe if you call them team leaders, troop leaders, stick leaders, guys up fromt, or any other term.
Following the regulations is a good habbit....but don't be a regs robot.
HAHA ;D Far from it... Just wanted someone to blame it on if anyone asked ;)
Quote from: RiveraJ on August 07, 2008, 07:54:48 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 07, 2008, 07:43:17 PM
Sure it's safe......it's not like someone will come and arrest you or take away your birthday if you call your element leaders (the proper term), squad leaders (the wrong term but is still in the reg).
Heck....no one will gripe if you call them team leaders, troop leaders, stick leaders, guys up fromt, or any other term.
Following the regulations is a good habbit....but don't be a regs robot.
HAHA ;D Far from it... Just wanted someone to blame it on if anyone asked ;)
Oh....in that case my name is Darrin Ninness....CAP. ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on August 07, 2008, 08:07:00 PM
Oh....in that case my name is Darrin Ninness....CAP. ;D
;D :clap: ;D
20-1 was written back in the old US Army Air Corps days when they were.....squad leaders.
AF changed to Element leaders (back before the got rid of SGT and added SRA) and nobody changed the reg.
The Leadership mannual uses element leaders but.....CAP says regs trump Manuals.
Makes you wonder about how often we update and review our rules.....
V/R
LT J.
I think the pamphlet would be the safest bet. That's what I'm using.
On separate note, who would take away your birthday? >:D
Quote from: NavLT on September 12, 2008, 02:18:41 PM
20-1 was written back in the old US Army Air Corps days when they were.....squad leaders.
AF changed to Element leaders (back before the got rid of SGT and added SRA) and nobody changed the reg.
The Leadership mannual uses element leaders but.....CAP says regs trump Manuals.
Makes you wonder about how often we update and review our rules.....
V/R
LT J.
Where does it say that? Both are regulatory in nature.
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 12, 2008, 06:24:02 PM
I think the pamphlet would be the safest bet. That's what I'm using.
On separate note, who would take away your birthday? >:D
The IRS, given the chance...
Quote from: lordmonar on August 07, 2008, 07:43:17 PM
Sure it's safe......it's not like someone will come and arrest you or take away your birthday if you call your element leaders (the proper term), squad leaders (the wrong term but is still in the reg).
Heck....no one will gripe if you call them team leaders, troop leaders, stick leaders, guys up fromt, or any other term.
Following the regulations is a good habbit....but don't be a regs robot.
LOL I totally agree ;D
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 12, 2008, 06:24:02 PM
On separate note, who would take away your birthday? >:D
Let me know, I'd gladly do without a few. ;D
Well, you can use Element Leader for your organizational chart. But if you say you were Element Leader at encampment on a resume, it's kind of like getting Miss Congeniality. ;)
I would also like to propose that instead of Wings, Groups, Squadrons, and Flights that we change to Geschwadder, Gruppen, Staffeln, and Schwarms. Any body remember what is German for element? :D
Hals und beinbrech,
Olefido
The Jewish in me is now worried. German names, Hitler's Youth..... Not again.
Godwins Law strikes again!
Hence the smiley faces and winky faces and German terminology has nothing to do with Hitler. Hals und beinbrech is an term of good luck that WW2 Luftwaffe pilots used. It means "break you leg and your neck!". I was trying to recall some very brave airmen regardless of the flag they flew under. So don't hand me that Hitler Youth stuff!
It was only a joke.
His was easily interpreted that way; yours wasn't. :o
Godwin's Law is Godwin's Law... it's like the law of gravity....
Let me show my ignorance here: What is Godwin's Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I didn't know what Eclipse meant by Eternal September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September) either. ;D
::)
really tired of opening this thread for no apparent reason.... please be on topic or don't post...
I thought the issue on cadet squad leader was solved. It's typical to drift around here. It's natural.
Eternal september.
Quote from: NavLT on September 12, 2008, 02:18:41 PM
20-1 was written back in the old US Army Air Corps days when they were.....squad leaders.
AF changed to Element leaders (back before the got rid of SGT and added SRA) and nobody changed the reg.
I would disagree with this statement. I was AD AF in the mid 80's and we had squad leaders and both SrA and buck Sgts.
Quote from: captdomke on December 29, 2011, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: NavLT on September 12, 2008, 02:18:41 PM
20-1 was written back in the old US Army Air Corps days when they were.....squad leaders.
AF changed to Element leaders (back before the got rid of SGT and added SRA) and nobody changed the reg.
I would disagree with this statement. I was AD AF in the mid 80's and we had squad leaders and both SrA and buck Sgts.
That may be what you called them....but that's not what the regulation AFR 50-14 called it.
BTW....nice thread resurrection!
About the only time it was ever called anything was for drill... in boot camp and tech school we formed up in squads with squad leaders. I was a squad leader. I would certainly hope the TI's were following regs. Since I can't find a copy of 50-14 or any info on when it was written and retired, I'm left in confusion why I was told wrong. Apart from what our leaders told us, regs weren't exactly easy to find and look-up yourself back then. With everything online nowadays it certainly makes it easier.
I resurrected it because I myself was confused about "Squad Leader" vs. "Element Leader" because our own pubs contradict themselves. Makes no difference to me, just wanted clarity as I like to always be in the know when it comes to regs. Hard to lead our cadets if we ourselves don't follow the regs or make sure what we're doing is right.
Nope...they did not.
I joined up in '86 and they were called squad leaders....but when I was in AFJROTC in 83-84 and AFROTC 84-85 and in CAP from 85-86 the drill manual called them element leaders.
The TI's also used "by my command" in a way not spelled out by the regulation.
The also used "guide right/left" instead of "incline to the right/left".
When I was at tech school we did all sorts of things that were not in any of the regs.
Sounds like you and I were in around the same timeframe. I was in CAP '80-86 and went active duty in '86 with several tech schools in '87.
So are there any special insignia, or uniform items that could be worn by an element or 'squad' leader to show that position? :o >:D >:D :angel: :angel: ;)
From looking back at the pics... squad leaders had a squad leader nameplate in boot and then yellow or red shoulder cords in tech school
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on December 30, 2011, 01:34:56 AM
So are there any special insignia, or uniform items that could be worn by an element or 'squad' leader to show that position? :o >:D >:D :angel: :angel: ;)
Actually there was a special insignia for Dorm Chief....they wore a name plate that said dorm chief.
In tech school the student leaders wore rope....green, yellow and red.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on December 30, 2011, 01:34:56 AM
So are there any special insignia, or uniform items that could be worn by an element or 'squad' leader to show that position? :o >:D >:D :angel: :angel: ;)
For CAP, there used to be position insignia BITD. I have seen pics from an old manual.
Quote from: MIKE on December 30, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on December 30, 2011, 01:34:56 AM
So are there any special insignia, or uniform items that could be worn by an element or 'squad' leader to show that position? :o >:D >:D :angel: :angel: ;)
For CAP, there used to be position insignia BITD. I have seen pics from an old manual.
I used to have one. What a PITA! The pins were VERY fragile, and didn't want to go through anything heavier than toilet paper with any ease.
Yep.... ::) see what i did there..... :o>:D ;)
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:48:54 AM
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on December 30, 2011, 01:34:56 AM
So are there any special insignia, or uniform items that could be worn by an element or 'squad' leader to show that position? :o >:D >:D :angel: :angel: ;)
Actually there was a special insignia for Dorm Chief....they wore a name plate that said dorm chief.
In tech school the student leaders wore rope....green, yellow and red.
They did this when I went to the Corrections Academy. Different positions had different color cords. They were collectively known as "Dope on a Rope".