"In Your Face" encampment

[Cool Mace]

I agree with everything Bill said. I've seen cadets get homesick from being "rough" on them, but by the 3rd day they love it! After the first few days, we start to "rebuild" them into thinking how they, as a CAP cadet member should.

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree with everything Bill said. I've seen cadets get homesick from being "rough" on them, but by the 3rd day they love it! After the first few days, we start to "rebuild" them into thinking how they, as a CAP cadet member should.

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

+1

[lordmonar]

I don't think there is really much question that cadets want a military experience in CAP.  And that includes encampment.

After all, if they didn't want a military experience they undoubtedly would have joined any of the good non-military youth programs out there.  Some of which even offer uniforms, aerospace and career education, and various life skills. 

Our outstanding cadet program has had a military foundation for nearly 70 years.

The issue as we have discussed in this thread is how to provide a quality experience without being too lax or too strict.  And a big part of that is trying to come up with a common set of definitions and "tools" to help make the experience more (pardon the expression) "uniform" across the 52 wings and hundreds of squadrons.

Until we can reasonably compare and contrast a given situation to describe how to set the appropriate tone, we are going to be stuck with one of those classic CAPTalk "Tastes Great! Less Filling!" kinds of arguments, which tend to be unresolvable.

(Which certainly has never stopped us before . . . )

+1

I would like to see a new NCSA aimed at training future encampment staff.  Call it the National Encampment encourage cadets and SM who want to staff their encampment to attend.  This way we can push national standards and also establish that fine line between too lax and too harsh.

[Eclipse]

I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

You have it where?

[Eclipse]

I would like to see a new NCSA aimed at training future encampment staff.  Call it the National Encampment encourage cadets and SM who want to staff their encampment to attend.  This way we can push national standards and also establish that fine line between too lax and too harsh.

Unless it is mandatory, with refreshers and some sort of local compliance audit, the effect on the system as a whole would be negligible.

Make it mandatory and your pool of staff dries up to zero overnight.

This gets back to CAP not having any standardized training environment for anyone, from day-1 on.  Even the semi-standardized stuff
is "interpreted" locally in all sorts of fun and exciting ways.

I would be strongly in favor of a 1-week National Basic Member Training for seniors and cadets, respectively, done at a single loca

Officer training after that, and staff training from there.

Make everyone who wants to do ES go to NESA.

End of most of the arguments, a much smaller, stronger CAP, and a CAP Talk that just discusses travel plans.

[Ron1319]

No training program from day 1..

I'd like to take this opportunity to inject a public service announcement for the Great Start program.  Use it.  It works.  I can't imagine joining as a senior without having been a cadet.

I still don't know what my take is on in your face encampments.  Mine would have been a different experience without it.  I've only yelled once in uniform at a cadet and only one word.  He almost immediately did what I had just told all of them not to do.  I barked at him "hey" and he listened after that.  I believe I said immediately after barking that I didn't want to yell so to please pay attention.  It seemed effective.

[ol'fido]

I have attended 4 encampments as a cadet including one as cadet commander. I have attended 13 as a senior. I have served in the US Army as an infantryman. I have worked for the last 16 years at a prison boot camp for adult offenders so I am used to getting in the faces of Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, and Latin Kings, etc. Along the way, I like to think I have maybe learned a few things about "in your face" stuff in general.

1. There is no problem with being strict, professional, and matter of fact about what you are trying to teach. You don't have to chug on over to mamby-pamby land and sing kumbaya. Teens whether they realize it or not want structure and discipline. This shows that somebody is concerned about them and wants to see them improve themselves. Holding them to high standards and enforcing those standards does NOT require in you face techniques.


2. The in your face yelling and screaming only works for so long. After a while of someone yelling and screaming at you over minor petty stuff , the yelling turns to white noise and is tuned out. Also, since everything is passed on in this matter , the important stuff gets lost in the petty ante, mickey mouse junk. It  doesn't teach attention to detail either, it just teaches you to do enough to not be yelled at.

3. Yelling conveys disrespect. The minute  you stop rescpecting the people who are your responsibility to train teach and discipline is the minute  you have given up any claim you have to their respect. Be FIRM, FAIR, and CONSISTENT. Set the standard, live up to the standard, and enforce the standard.

4. It's not about RST, CPPT, or mollycoddling. It's about teaching one of our core values, RESPECT, by example. This is the middle ground we should strive for. Not mamby-pamby land and not FMJ.

[Eclipse]

Yup.

[ZigZag911]

BTDT as a cadet officer, learned the hard way that yelling only gets you a sore throat!

The ideal encampment commander will:

Set high standards for staff (senior & cadet) as well as cadet participants.

Expect people to meet these standards.

Counsel/mentor/train/correct when they don't.

Teach 'em how to do it right.

Treat everyone fairly and respectfully, and require that everyone else do so as well.

This will be more than sufficiently challenging (and military) for most cadets, IMHO.

[IceNine]

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

How many times have you been in a staff position that you would be privy to mom calling the commander?  How many cadets are in your unit? What percentage of the encampment participants do they account for?

How long have you been tracking the return trends of the encampments?  Do you have a significant return ratio, or just a few small samples?  How do your numbers compare to more lax encampments?  Have you followed the trends of multiple repeat antendees?

There are more than a few highly experienced seniors here that don't think yelling is leadership, and in your face is inappropriate in our program.  This comes from what appears to be a combined total of more than 100 encampments and probably closer to double that in service to like activities. 

  I personally attended 6 as a cadet and 15 so far total, with one more in the planning phases.  I have been the commandant for going on 4 year and deputy commandant before that.  2 basic encampments, 1 ATS, 2 flight commander, 1 squadron commander.

  I have been working as or with highly respected cadets to develop encampments for half of my life, and believe it or not there is a theme.  A little gas, a little go.  Raised voices are to get attention not discipline.  The Navy has posters everywhere that say "cursing is not leadership" "Yelling is not leadership".  These are professional educators training adults for life or death situations.  How then is it reasonable that teenagers can be expected to use these techniques, and get positive results?

  If it doesn't happen in the real military, why would we do it?  You are calling for a more military environment.  That is exactly what you are getting.  Maybe not fmj, but military recruits don't get that anymore either.

[Larry Mangum]

I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

Since you joined as a cadet in 2002 you have been to what 8 encampments? I know you are a C\Lt Col, but until you have actually gone through basic training, your concept of what is "military" is just theory.  Set back and listen to what those who have served in the military have to say, then compare that against what you see see in the movies. You might be quite surprised.

[Cool Mace]

Maybe our thinking is a little different here? I'm not saying FMJ or anything close to that. I mean yelling as far as "move faster, get over there!" type of stuff...

Our encampments went soft for a few years, and a lot of cadets I talked to didn't like it. So we gave the staff the chance to "yell" a little more, and it worked. I would say this last year was a little more "hard core" then in years past, and every cadet I talked to loved it and couldn't wait to come back again. We even have a cadet (just one of two that came to the past one) apply for staff. She said that it was awesome, and she would tell all the cadets in her Sqd. to come (OKWG btw).

But like I said at first. Maybe we're thinking two different styles of yelling?

[Larry Mangum]

My TI had served in the army during Vietnam, before joining the Air Force.  We where his 5th Honor Flight in a row, and he was extremely good at getting us motivated and working as a team. But he never one yelled at us, either individually or as a flight.  I am not saying he would not get in our face on a one on one basis, but when he did quietly talked to that individual. When correcting the flight he clearly enunciated what we were doing wrong, but again never yelled.

YMMV, but again I counsel you to not confuse your belief in what it means to be military, as seen in the movies, with the professionals who actually conduct basic training.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is a difference between hard and stupid. Yelling just to yell, that is stupid. Yelling because some one is in danger, good. Putting pressure on someone is hard, because it is hard to do it the right way. Just yelling is unneeded and pointless. Get your point across, if you need to put some stress into it, start timing everything they do.

[ZigZag911]

And, of course, any reasonable person recognizes that the type and level of pressure one can put on a 12 year old cadet needs to differ from that put on an 18 year old military recruit by a highly trained instructor who is also a professional NCO.

[J.American]

I just had the opportunity to be a Flight Sergeant at the FLWG Encampment.  Honestly, the only times I had to yell were when I had to so that the entire flight could hear me, or I was raising my volume to that they would as well (teaching to sound off and such).  Other than that, I just spoke clearly and sternly if necessary.  Yelling has its place, but its not necessary often. 

[nesagsar]

Yelling can be a great tool and should not be instantly discounted. The idea is to establish that the yelling is not about anger but instead about urgency. When I was a cadet the only reason I would yell is to prevent danger or to encourage faster production. For younger cadets it is difficult to distinguish the two while using them but by the time you are 17 you should be able to do it correctly. If I wanted to convey anger or inspire fear I would go by the stern and ticked off example. Think of Sgt Major Plumley in "We Were Soldiers".

[JoeTomasone]

I just had the opportunity to be a Flight Sergeant at the FLWG Encampment.  Honestly, the only times I had to yell were when I had to so that the entire flight could hear me, or I was raising my volume to that they would as well (teaching to sound off and such).  Other than that, I just spoke clearly and sternly if necessary.  Yelling has its place, but its not necessary often.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The few times I had to dress someone down at Encampment, my voice was barely audible a few feet away.   Your tone and demeanor speak volumes all by themselves.   There was no mistaking the fact that I was unhappy, and those I addressed got the message loud and clear even if I wasn't.     

If you are a good leader, those you command should want to excel out of pride in themselves and to make you proud of them.   They should never feel compelled to excel out of fear.    Your mere disappointment in substandard performance should be all that is necessary to inspire greater effort - in other words, ideally, substandard performers should be reprimanding themselves much more often than they are being reprimanded.

[EMT-83]

Of course cadets are too young to remember the ad campaign, "If you want to get someone's attention, whisper".

[SII-117]

Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality

Why not I am?

but seriously, all staff have rst. You should see that one which is the relationship between stress and efficiency.

if there isn't any competition, then in reality everyone loses.
If there isn't any hardship, then your achievement is meaningless.
But this only goes to a certain extent.