"In Your Face" encampment

Started by capme, July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM

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capme

Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality, but I can induce a whole lot of stress without raising my voice.

Exactly what is the purpose of the yelling and screaming?  I am retired MP, so don't give me the whole "its the military way" garbage.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

#1
Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

No.  Yelling is not leadership.

I would suggest spending some time with the search feature - most of the topics you are starting have already been covered extensively - you also might want to check out CadetStuff as this specific topic and similar have been beaten up there as well.

"That Others May Zoom"

tsrup

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Do the rest of you have an "In Your Face" philosophy at your basic encampments?  Do you encourage your cadet staff to yell at basic attendees?

Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality, but I can induce a whole lot of stress without raising my voice.

Exactly what is the purpose of the yelling and screaming?  I am retired MP, so don't give me the whole "its the military way" garbage.

I take it someone noticed something they didn't like. 

It's not the norm, and you'll find that the majority of people involved here with Cadet Programs are opposed to "in your face" yelling. 

There is RST for a reason at the beginning of encampment, and if what they're doing falls under hazing then that is a definite no-no.

Paramedic
hang-around.

DakRadz

Even cadets are not generally for this type of technique. Many who are soon see the light after being given an explanation (RST, anyone?).

Of course, I speak from a limited perspective, but based on general cadettyness I've garnered, cadets only follow this path so long as no one tells them that FMJ isn't a good strategy. My staff at encampment rarely screamed (actually, only during emergency situations)- they did raise their voices, but only when volume was necessary (noisy areas and such).

First Sergeant certainly knew how to project, but it was all in their bearing and manner- those who were professional were trusted by me, because I can generally spot good leaders and their tactics (or so I like to think); the younger cadets respected them because they intuitively sensed that they should.


YMMV

Daniel

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality

Why not I am?

but seriously, all staff have rst. You should see that one which is the relationship between stress and efficiency.


C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

capme

I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.  I have just recently assumed the duties as DCP and I am fighting this mentality.  At first I thought it was just in MEWG, but now I am finding out it is elsewhere in NER.

I have even had senior members, some former Mitchell cadets, argue with me that the "in your face" approach is not hazing.  I was floored.  These senior members went on to "explain" to me that it was necessary to yell and scream to get their attention and induce stress.  WOW!!!

We are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.  RST has been taught in the past, so I am wondering how this even got a foot hold.

Anyway, I am not here to air MEWG's dirty laundry - I thank you for your opinions.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

dwb

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.
Don't use too broad of a brush there... NYWG in no way runs an encampment that involves reenactments of Full Metal Jacket.

I have heard of some "in your face" encampments in other parts of the Region, but that was years ago; I'm not sure how things are nowadays.

capme

No offense intended.  Just meant it went outside MEWG.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

arajca

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
We are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.  RST has been taught in the past, so I am wondering how this even got a foot hold.

It probably pre dates RST and, like so many wrong cadet practices, has been accepted with a wink and a nod after RST was introduced.

dwb

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PMWe are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.
Three years.  It will take you three years to change the culture.  Cadet turnover (and simple aging out) will help, but mostly, I've found that once something has been in place for a few years, it becomes the new "way we've always done things", and it keeps itself going at that point.

I can point to so many examples with NYWG encampments, it's almost silly how tenuously people cling to "traditions" that have really only existed for a relatively small number of years.

PHall

Quote from: dwb on July 27, 2010, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PMWe are changing that culture here in MEWG one event at a time.
Three years.  It will take you three years to change the culture.  Cadet turnover (and simple aging out) will help, but mostly, I've found that once something has been in place for a few years, it becomes the new "way we've always done things", and it keeps itself going at that point.

I can point to so many examples with NYWG encampments, it's almost silly how tenuously people cling to "traditions" that have really only existed for a relatively small number of years.

Same deal in CAWG. We do something for three years at Encampment and it's tradition. ::)

DBlair

Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
I only ask because it seems to be a trend in NER.

Back in the early 1990s, the staff at various activities (not just actual encampments) in NER seemed to have watched FMJ way too many times. I would venture to say it was somewhat common back then, but probably not completely universal through NER. I know from personal experience that in NJWG and elsewhere in NER, it did indeed exist and got pretty bad at times.

It seems that some of the changes to the CP, including the much more detailed CPPT hazing policies, were in response to the FMJ attitudes of the 80s and 90s. Being involved with the CP today, I have sometimes seen this perpetuated by members who were Cadets back then, or by current Cadets who they themselves have watched FMJ too many times.

While I do believe in teaching leadership and discipline, the FMJ mentality is not what the Cadet Program is about today and realistically, is not the best way to teach leadership or discipline. I do not advocate the FMJ approach and I find myself having to deal with quite a few Cadets on a power trip who think this is how they are supposed to behave- or who behave a certain way due to how they were previously treated.

I try to explain to Cadets that rather than just screaming at a fellow Cadet for doing something wrong that was never explained to them, they should take a moment to explain and correct the behavior. So often, Cadets are lost in the shuffle and never learn the proper way of doing things and a quick explanation can sometimes prevent the issue from surfacing ever again.

As for encampments, due to the turnover in the Cadet Program, I would agree that if a policy is enacted and continued for a few years, it will become much more of a norm. Sure, there will be those gung-ho FMJ Cadets who need to be instructed that they need to tone it down, but for the most part, I would venture to say that a few years would do wonders in changing things around.
DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
C/Lt Col (Ret) (1990s Era)
Wing Staff / Legislative Squadron Commander

raivo

My flight sergeant back at my first squadron (back when I was an impressionable young C/A) was telling me all about encampment, when I was getting ready to apply.

Apparently, when his flight went to shower, they each got 10 seconds under each of the 8 shower-heads in the room, and they had to sing the Marine Corps song the entire time. I oppose this.

Raising your voice is fine.

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

biomed441

I have to wonder sometimes if the reason that some cadets push for the FMJ Approach is because they are frustrated that perhaps things have gone a little too far into the boyscouts easy going mentality.  Don't get me wrong, im not advocating for in-your-face approaches, and as DBlair mentioned, military discipline and structure is important but theres a difference between discipline and regulation than with plain unfounded yelling for the sake of yelling.

Hard core FMJ type discipline had its purpose at one point in history.  Though also one would come home to worse from their own parents.  The culture has changed, and thus the approach changes with it. 

Military discipline is still important, though its our job to make sure that we dont forget the definition of military discipline, and that nowhere in that definition does it say to commemorate the epic scenes of Full Metal Jacket.

MSG Mac

Yelling and/or shouting is not discipline, in fact it's a lack of discipline. Those who espouse the FMJ model seem to forget that the time period of the movie was 1966-67. Over 40 years ago and in an entirely different environment than that of the Civil Air Patrol. If any senior or cadet acted like that they would be severely counseled about what he did wrong and why we don't do that.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Hawk200

Quote from: MSG Mac on September 07, 2010, 04:16:06 AMYelling and/or shouting is not discipline, in fact it's a lack of discipline. Those who espouse the FMJ model seem to forget that the time period of the movie was 1966-67. Over 40 years ago and in an entirely different environment than that of the Civil Air Patrol. If any senior or cadet acted like that they would be severely counseled about what he did wrong and why we don't do that.
The differences are also in the environment. Military services want the weak ones to fall out or quit, it's eliminating a weak link prior to the battlefield. Civil Air Patrol doesn't have a mission where someone falling out or quitting later will get someone close to you killed.

Yes, I know that if someone falls out on a mission, we may not find an objective. But it's not really reasonable to think that the actions of one person near the bottom of the chain will ruin the mission. We have numerous people available to take up any slack. If we don't, it's certainly not the fault of the one individual. That's the point of a team, different strengths balance out any weaknesses.

Keydet2010

I personally don't see the problem with yelling or shouting. Coupled with quick time limits are a good way of adding stress to an otherwise unstressful situation (i.e. brushing you teeth or reading) in a controlled environment with the purpose of teaching the recipient to be able to react and think clearly while under pressure in a stressful situation.


Now the problem with adopting a super-"motivated" FMJ approach is that the yelling/screaming is targeted at the trainee not at that trainees actions. As soon as you start name calling or simply start yelling without training and teaching the proper method (such as uniform wear, drill, etc.), you've failed as a leader, mentor, and teacher.


Ideally, encampment staff should use this technique sparingly for the first day or two of encampment as a way to bring about a culture shock for the basic cadets; an "Uh-oh, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore" type of reaction. After that they should transition to a calmer, but still formal tone with the basics. The problem is always that those on staff never understand why these kind of things are done and all they have to go off of is the movies and media, which leads them to believe that all drill instructors do is yell and ridicule. The problem is not with the volume and intensity, the problem is with the mindset and training of the staff themselves.


Also, if staff is yelling or screaming they obviously haven't learned how to use their command voices properly and will be hoarse soon after they start yelling. :)

Майор Хаткевич


Ned

#18
This is a particularly interesting topic to me and one that we have discussed with some frequency in the past - usually without being able to reach a consensus.

I'm convinced that the problem in reaching consensus lies in the medium of an internet discussion board.  It is just very difficult to either convey a scene or understand the context of a situation based on a couple of typed sentences on the internet.  We all are creatures of experience when it comes to CAP, and all too often one person's improper "yelling and screaming" is another person's necessary "raised voice to be heard and to focus a cadet's attention on training."  And both may be right, depending on what is actually occuring.

Here are the things that I think most of us would agree upon:

1.  The CAP cadet program is designed to be a challenging program for youth aged 12-20.
2.  We use a military training model to teach leadership and other life skills to our cadets.
3.  Encampment is different in some respects from ordinary squadron meetings.
4.  Young persons - particularly those in the  age 13-15 cohort for most first-time attendees - are significantly different developmentally and physically than 17-25 year old military service basic trainees.
5.  Cadets and seniors working on encampment staff have far less training and experience than RM NCOs and officers, particularly when compared to highly skilled folks like MTIs & DIs.
6.  Cadets who are over-stressed in their training environment cannot learn, and may even be damaged by the experience.
7.  Most CAP members rarely attend an encampment outside of their home wing or region, so we tend to be fairly insular and do encampment "the way it has always been done."
8.  There is no rule that says one can never raise one's voice when speaking to one or more cadets.
9.  Conversely, screaming abusive language into some cadet's ear at 0300 in the barracks ala Gunny Hartman is always wrong.

After that, it is hard to reach agreement, particularly on the internet.

And I think it is difficult to write rules that will work in all situations.  Things like "squadron meeting nights should be about a 3 on the 10-point Universal Military Discipline Scale, but the first two days of encampment can go up to a 5.  Anyone trying to pull off a 7 or above is hazing per se and will be suspended."

That is why we have experienced and mature CP leaders at encampment.  To ensure the safety of our cadets and also to ensure a rigorous and challenging training environment.  Leaders who can set the example and "walk the walk."  And who can confer with each other and discuss situations that may not be clear at first glance.

Commanders set the tone for encampment.  It is a wing commander's responsibility to adequately communicate the desired "look and feel" to the staff for their encampment, and to clearly set the limits on stress and discipline.  That is hard for any commander to do via email and SOIs. It is best done by putting boots on the ground, observing, and setting the standard.

Without clear and understandable command guidance, we are stuck with one of those "tastes great, less filling" kind of discussions here on CT.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

Eclipse

A straightforward encampment manual, along with videos which show the "right" way to do it would end or limit these conversations
(though sadly not likely end the bad behavior, as people tend to do whatever they want absent direct oversight).

"That Others May Zoom"

Dracosbane

As a cadet, and a cadet officer, I had to learn the difference between yelling and projecting.  Being loud and obnoxious at a person and being loud and obnoxious at a whole group of people is completely different.  Even as a senior member working with cadets, I never would consider yelling at a cadet.  Correcting something is easiest quietly face to face if in front of people, or one on one later. 

That said, I have no objection to cadets being loud from across the drill pad, projecting commands or general corrections (i.e. "get in step").  Especially due to the fact that our armory has helicopters taking off and hovering around on a regular basis while we're outside.

IceNine

#21
The induce stress and work under pressure theory of training has no place at an encampment.  Especially not for basic cadets.

  These young people are receiving enough actual stress that we have no place making artificial stress.  This will be the first time a lot of cadets have spent a night away from home.  And for the others this will likely be their first time away from their squadron staff.  Couple unfamiliar faces with severe changes in sleep pattern, eating habits, physical activity, and mental exercise.  What other stress do you really think is necessary?

  The purpose of these activities is education, retention, and fun.  Encampment is not bmt it is a chance to see CAP outside the 4 walls of the home unit.  Its an opportunity to learn group dynamics.  Its the chance to finally learn the things that are difficult at best when its the same 6 personalities in the room all the time.

  Cadets should walk away from encampment with something they didn't have when they walked in.  Do you want that to be disatain or a broken spirit?  Or would you rather it be self confidence, focus, attention to detail, and fundamental skills to make squadron life easier?

  Creating a positive, fun, upbeat environment doesn't have to take the place of professionalism, respect and hardwork.  You can't teach if they aren't listening.  And after a short period yelling or "projecting" becomes just loud noises.

  I have become quite adept at correcting problems with subtle well placed observations.  And you can be heard extremely well if you can turn on the lightbulb that helps them decide they made a mistake.  If you have to tell the why x was the wrong thing they will do it again.  If you help them decide x was wrong they will at least think twice.
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

caphornbuckle

I have been pondering the thought of why CAP doesn't have an Air Force Basic Military Training Familiarization Course.  We have familiarization courses for some of the AF technical training courses, why not hit the one most have to go through before entering tech school?

That way, at least, some cadets would know the difference between an encampment and BMT as well as other benefits that would help CAP look good to the Air Force.
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

BillB

#23
A AF BMT Famiarization Course could probably be done on the Region level. The problem would be getting AD USAF NCOs to be instructors. At the Regiion level, USAF Base support might be possible complete with training staff. If you put this at the National level, travel expenses would be to high for many cadets. And, at the Wing level, USAF support may not be available. Kick the idea up the chain of command because I'd bet, Cadets would be interested in attending.
Many of the old style Summer Encampments were run as a modified BMT program and cadets loved it. It would have to be limited to cadets that have completed an encampment, earned at minimum Wright Brothers, and probably require cadets to remove all grade insignia. (cadets would have to earn duty assignments, not be given positions based on earned grade) USAF staff would be in all command positions, with CAP Seniors in staff positions only.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Eclipse

Quote from: caphornbuckle on October 04, 2010, 07:35:08 AM
I have been pondering the thought of why CAP doesn't have an Air Force Basic Military Training Familiarization Course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies

"That Others May Zoom"

coudano

First i think it is a common misconception of cadets that one needs to be stern, or a jerk to be an effective leader.  I think the yelling stems somewhat from that.  In reality, if you need to yell to get your point across effectively, it only demonstrates a lack of communication and leadership (and social) skills.  It is often the first, easiest, and sometimes unfortunately only tool available to a student leader.

That said, there is a right tool for a right job, and raising ones voice is and can be a valid application for some situations.  The key is learning when and where to (and not ot) use it appropriately.

Most often in the military, in training environments, it is used to induce stress.
Now is that appropriate and or desirable for a cap encampment?

ZigZag911

We need to teach them, not terrorize nor traumatize them!

Also, in the immortal words of Michael Corleone (and this is a difficult lesson for trainer and trainee to learn)" "It's not personal...it's business."

In other words, we have a mission, and it should be done effectively, properly, and, as far as possible, objectively -- treat everyone fairly.

Raja1020

I personally think that it would be better if all staff during encampments got some straight forward examples of whats good whats not, I mean, if all the staff is totally clear with all of this then theres no confusion and this thread wouldn't exist, no offense to anyone just saying there wouldn't be a need for this if we were more clear.

raivo

Quote from: Raja1020 on December 27, 2010, 08:22:42 PM
I personally think that it would be better if all staff during encampments got some straight forward examples of whats good whats not, I mean, if all the staff is totally clear with all of this then theres no confusion and this thread wouldn't exist, no offense to anyone just saying there wouldn't be a need for this if we were more clear.

... if there's anything to be taken away from this thread (and the myriad others on the subject), it's that there is no clear line.

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

dwb

Quote from: Raja1020 on December 27, 2010, 08:22:42 PMI personally think that it would be better if all staff during encampments got some straight forward examples of whats good whats not, I mean, if all the staff is totally clear with all of this then theres no confusion and this thread wouldn't exist, no offense to anyone just saying there wouldn't be a need for this if we were more clear.

Human behavior is not always straightforward and clear.  If a comprehensive list of Do and Do Not could be constructed, it would already be part of the training.  Everyone knows the obvious cases (e.g., don't punch a cadet in the face), it's all those gray areas where the context matters so much that are harder to teach.

What we should strive for is getting people to exercise good judgment.  Unfortunately, good judgment is often learned by studying one's own poor judgments!

Eclipse

Quote from: dwb on December 27, 2010, 11:29:31 PM
What we should strive for is getting people to exercise good judgment.  Unfortunately, good judgment is often learned by studying one's own poor judgments!

Exactly, and the problem with "lists" in regards to human behavior is how creative we are as a species, as well as the mental gymnastics people will go through in order to justify their own behavior is "OK, because I know better..." (etc.).

"That Others May Zoom"

Cool Mace

From a cadet perspective on this. When I was getting ready for my basic encampment, I couldn't wait. I was told there would be a lot of yelling, but because the had a reason to, not just because. I don't see any problem with creating stress. Some cadets need it. I've been on staff for 6 encampments (I'm the encampment whore in my WG) and I never had any problem with the cadets I yelled at as a Sqd. 1stSgt, or group 1stSgt. In fact. I had a cadet come up to me a year later (after I was the group 1st Sgt) and told me that he was afraid of me at encampment, but he knew if he needed something, I was there. And that he hasn't learned so much from one person in such little time.

I think there are WAY too many SR's. that were not cadets think that we need to be like the boy scouts. I've seen a lot of cadets leave CAP to join the boy scouts because it's getting way too soft. If you even think about raising your voice for whatever reason, there's always a Sr that will think it's wrong, and try to get you in trouble.

Every cadet I've talked to in my Wing (and it's been well over 100) thinks it needs to be harder. We've have become too relaxed...

Just IMHO.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

BillB

In talking to cadets at a recent encampment (2004), when asked wehat they thought about encampment, the majority said it was to easy. Without exception they wanted a more "boot camp" type activity. These were cadets in the 12 to 14 year age group thus have had no CPP training. The cadets asked about the old style encampments they heard about from some of the senior members who were cadets in the 60's and 70's. Then beds were ripped up and tossed on the barracks floor with measurements were wrong, cadet NCOs yelled at the 1st year cadets, stuck pencils in shoulder patches is sewing was poor (National used those photos for years of C/Col Frye of Florida Wing putting a pencil in the shoulder patch, three years after that happened to him as a basic cadet)
Cadets said there was to much mentoring, and not enough military discipline at encampments. One even said what I've been saying, encampments should correct what a Squadron teaches incorrectly or not at all. However with CPPT, the encampments of the past can no longer exist, even if that's what cadets want.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

manfredvonrichthofen

I have heard the same thing from every cadet that I have asked, they all want a harder more "in your face" encampment. They all hear it called "Basic Encampment" the key word there being BASIC. They want that military, Drill Sergeant yelling, doing push ups when you mess up, getting things tossed, being told your nothing but trainees not worthy of the title of your rank. They really do want these things. Many cadets want the military training aspect that only a military organization could give. Some have told me that if there wasn't going to be anything like military training, they would have just joined the boy scouts. I wish we could give them what they want.

However, we have to comply with the CPP. It is not just to protect us, it is also to protect the cadets. Not all want this type of training, and some couldn't handle it. We need to cater to as many of the cadets as possible.

Now, all of this being said, I won't nor do I think that anyone will go up to their cadets and start yelling at them or snapping at them to do push ups because their boots aren't up to par (oh yeah this sort of stuff happened all the time WIWAC). It is just food for thought, how do we go about giving the tougher cadets who want the harsh military basic training that they want?

Eclipse

Actually, they think they want that, until they really get it, at which time we start hearing from mothers.

For the record, they are no longer referred to as "basic" encampments.  They are simply "encampments", with all
activities conferring credit, regardless of schedule, using the same curriculum outline.

The challenge isn't with what cadets think they want, but the fact that we do not have the ability to properly train the
staff cadets in where the line is.

In most wings, the only thing required to be on an encampment staff is one under your belt and the initiative to apply.
Some wings run staff selection activities, but even those are usually just a weekend.  Beyond that, cadets bring their
stripes or pips, and the same inconsistent experience as the newbs in their charge.

DI's, TI's, RDC's, and similar, in addition to being consistently trained and personally experienced in military ways themselves,
receive a significant amount of training and mentoring as to how to properly "break/fix" recruits.

Further, as we have pointed out a number of times - encampments are not supposed to be the equivalent of basic cadet training,
especially when you consider we have Chiefs in the flights.  Cadets come into encampment with the cadet equivalence of BMT already done.  Encampments are more akin to the first tech school, where skills are reinforced, not instilled, and while still strict, not nearly akin to BMT.

"That Others May Zoom"

PA Guy

Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2010, 05:12:46 AM
Actually, they think they want that, until they really get it, at which time we start hearing from mothers.

Amen to that.

Sleepwalker

Eclipse:
Actually, they think they want that, until they really get it, at which time we start hearing from mothers.

PA Guy:
Amen to that.


Having worked 7 Encampments, I completely agree with you two! 
A Thiarna, déan trócaire

RiverAux

Compared to other CAP encampments and NCSAs, it is has always been my impression that the PJ courses were the toughest, most "military" ones we offered.  Even accounting for the distance and cost elements I suspect that if a lot of cadets REALLY wanted this sort of experience there would be several thousand applications for those courses every year. 

Ned

I don't think there is really much question that cadets want a military experience in CAP.  And that includes encampment.

After all, if they didn't want a military experience they undoubtedly would have joined any of the good non-military youth programs out there.  Some of which even offer uniforms, aerospace and career education, and various life skills. 

Our outstanding cadet program has had a military foundation for nearly 70 years.

The issue as we have discussed in this thread is how to provide a quality experience without being too lax or too strict.  And a big part of that is trying to come up with a common set of definitions and "tools" to help make the experience more (pardon the expression) "uniform" across the 52 wings and hundreds of squadrons.

Until we can reasonably compare and contrast a given situation to describe how to set the appropriate tone, we are going to be stuck with one of those classic CAPTalk "Tastes Great! Less Filling!" kinds of arguments, which tend to be unresolvable.

(Which certainly has never stopped us before . . . )

BillB

Having Commanded many Encampments under the old system, I've never had a problem with mothers. Sure you will have young cadets maybe 2 out of a 300 cadet encampment) homesick on the 3rd day, but by the end of Encampment they want to stay another week. That also reflected by experience at my first Encampment. Hated it for the first few days, than learned things that my home Squadron never taught and I loved the rest of the encampment.
One problem is Senior members that never attended an encampment as a cadet. They have no concept of what the cadets want, or even how encampments work. The "protect the children" that flows through CAP is opposite of what the cadets joined CAP for, the military aspect. Most cadet staffs I've seen at encampments are rough on the cadets for the first few days, followed by individual help to each cadet when needed.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Cool Mace

I agree with everything Bill said. I've seen cadets get homesick from being "rough" on them, but by the 3rd day they love it! After the first few days, we start to "rebuild" them into thinking how they, as a CAP cadet member should.

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 28, 2010, 11:47:21 PM
I agree with everything Bill said. I've seen cadets get homesick from being "rough" on them, but by the 3rd day they love it! After the first few days, we start to "rebuild" them into thinking how they, as a CAP cadet member should.

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.
+1

lordmonar

Quote from: Ned on December 28, 2010, 09:23:14 PM
I don't think there is really much question that cadets want a military experience in CAP.  And that includes encampment.

After all, if they didn't want a military experience they undoubtedly would have joined any of the good non-military youth programs out there.  Some of which even offer uniforms, aerospace and career education, and various life skills. 

Our outstanding cadet program has had a military foundation for nearly 70 years.

The issue as we have discussed in this thread is how to provide a quality experience without being too lax or too strict.  And a big part of that is trying to come up with a common set of definitions and "tools" to help make the experience more (pardon the expression) "uniform" across the 52 wings and hundreds of squadrons.

Until we can reasonably compare and contrast a given situation to describe how to set the appropriate tone, we are going to be stuck with one of those classic CAPTalk "Tastes Great! Less Filling!" kinds of arguments, which tend to be unresolvable.

(Which certainly has never stopped us before . . . )

+1

I would like to see a new NCSA aimed at training future encampment staff.  Call it the National Encampment encourage cadets and SM who want to staff their encampment to attend.  This way we can push national standards and also establish that fine line between too lax and too harsh.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 28, 2010, 11:47:21 PMI can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

You have it where?

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2010, 12:58:54 AMI would like to see a new NCSA aimed at training future encampment staff.  Call it the National Encampment encourage cadets and SM who want to staff their encampment to attend.  This way we can push national standards and also establish that fine line between too lax and too harsh.

Unless it is mandatory, with refreshers and some sort of local compliance audit, the effect on the system as a whole would be negligible.

Make it mandatory and your pool of staff dries up to zero overnight.

This gets back to CAP not having any standardized training environment for anyone, from day-1 on.  Even the semi-standardized stuff
is "interpreted" locally in all sorts of fun and exciting ways.

I would be strongly in favor of a 1-week National Basic Member Training for seniors and cadets, respectively, done at a single loca

Officer training after that, and staff training from there.

Make everyone who wants to do ES go to NESA.

End of most of the arguments, a much smaller, stronger CAP, and a CAP Talk that just discusses travel plans.




"That Others May Zoom"

Ron1319

No training program from day 1..

I'd like to take this opportunity to inject a public service announcement for the Great Start program.  Use it.  It works.  I can't imagine joining as a senior without having been a cadet.

I still don't know what my take is on in your face encampments.  Mine would have been a different experience without it.  I've only yelled once in uniform at a cadet and only one word.  He almost immediately did what I had just told all of them not to do.  I barked at him "hey" and he listened after that.  I believe I said immediately after barking that I didn't want to yell so to please pay attention.  It seemed effective.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

ol'fido

I have attended 4 encampments as a cadet including one as cadet commander. I have attended 13 as a senior. I have served in the US Army as an infantryman. I have worked for the last 16 years at a prison boot camp for adult offenders so I am used to getting in the faces of Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, and Latin Kings, etc. Along the way, I like to think I have maybe learned a few things about "in your face" stuff in general.

1. There is no problem with being strict, professional, and matter of fact about what you are trying to teach. You don't have to chug on over to mamby-pamby land and sing kumbaya. Teens whether they realize it or not want structure and discipline. This shows that somebody is concerned about them and wants to see them improve themselves. Holding them to high standards and enforcing those standards does NOT require in you face techniques.


2. The in your face yelling and screaming only works for so long. After a while of someone yelling and screaming at you over minor petty stuff , the yelling turns to white noise and is tuned out. Also, since everything is passed on in this matter , the important stuff gets lost in the petty ante, mickey mouse junk. It  doesn't teach attention to detail either, it just teaches you to do enough to not be yelled at.

3. Yelling conveys disrespect. The minute  you stop rescpecting the people who are your responsibility to train teach and discipline is the minute  you have given up any claim you have to their respect. Be FIRM, FAIR, and CONSISTENT. Set the standard, live up to the standard, and enforce the standard.

4. It's not about RST, CPPT, or mollycoddling. It's about teaching one of our core values, RESPECT, by example. This is the middle ground we should strive for. Not mamby-pamby land and not FMJ.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

ZigZag911

BTDT as a cadet officer, learned the hard way that yelling only gets you a sore throat!

The ideal encampment commander will:

Set high standards for staff (senior & cadet) as well as cadet participants.

Expect people to meet these standards.

Counsel/mentor/train/correct when they don't.

Teach 'em how to do it right.

Treat everyone fairly and respectfully, and require that everyone else do so as well.

This will be more than sufficiently challenging (and military) for most cadets, IMHO.

IceNine

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 28, 2010, 11:47:21 PM

I've never seen mothers get in the way of this, a lot of parents love it! I talk with all the parents from my squadron when they have questions about encampment, and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

How many times have you been in a staff position that you would be privy to mom calling the commander?  How many cadets are in your unit? What percentage of the encampment participants do they account for?

How long have you been tracking the return trends of the encampments?  Do you have a significant return ratio, or just a few small samples?  How do your numbers compare to more lax encampments?  Have you followed the trends of multiple repeat antendees?

There are more than a few highly experienced seniors here that don't think yelling is leadership, and in your face is inappropriate in our program.  This comes from what appears to be a combined total of more than 100 encampments and probably closer to double that in service to like activities. 

  I personally attended 6 as a cadet and 15 so far total, with one more in the planning phases.  I have been the commandant for going on 4 year and deputy commandant before that.  2 basic encampments, 1 ATS, 2 flight commander, 1 squadron commander.

  I have been working as or with highly respected cadets to develop encampments for half of my life, and believe it or not there is a theme.  A little gas, a little go.  Raised voices are to get attention not discipline.  The Navy has posters everywhere that say "cursing is not leadership" "Yelling is not leadership".  These are professional educators training adults for life or death situations.  How then is it reasonable that teenagers can be expected to use these techniques, and get positive results?

  If it doesn't happen in the real military, why would we do it?  You are calling for a more military environment.  That is exactly what you are getting.  Maybe not fmj, but military recruits don't get that anymore either.

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Larry Mangum

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 28, 2010, 11:47:21 PM
I can only think of a few Sr's. that don't like the "rough" encampment style, so why not do it? We have, and it works. Cadets can't wait too go back again next year, some as staff, some as ALF.

Since you joined as a cadet in 2002 you have been to what 8 encampments? I know you are a C\Lt Col, but until you have actually gone through basic training, your concept of what is "military" is just theory.  Set back and listen to what those who have served in the military have to say, then compare that against what you see see in the movies. You might be quite surprised.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

Cool Mace

Maybe our thinking is a little different here? I'm not saying FMJ or anything close to that. I mean yelling as far as "move faster, get over there!" type of stuff...

Our encampments went soft for a few years, and a lot of cadets I talked to didn't like it. So we gave the staff the chance to "yell" a little more, and it worked. I would say this last year was a little more "hard core" then in years past, and every cadet I talked to loved it and couldn't wait to come back again. We even have a cadet (just one of two that came to the past one) apply for staff. She said that it was awesome, and she would tell all the cadets in her Sqd. to come (OKWG btw).

But like I said at first. Maybe we're thinking two different styles of yelling?
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Larry Mangum

My TI had served in the army during Vietnam, before joining the Air Force.  We where his 5th Honor Flight in a row, and he was extremely good at getting us motivated and working as a team. But he never one yelled at us, either individually or as a flight.  I am not saying he would not get in our face on a one on one basis, but when he did quietly talked to that individual. When correcting the flight he clearly enunciated what we were doing wrong, but again never yelled.

YMMV, but again I counsel you to not confuse your belief in what it means to be military, as seen in the movies, with the professionals who actually conduct basic training.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

manfredvonrichthofen

There is a difference between hard and stupid. Yelling just to yell, that is stupid. Yelling because some one is in danger, good. Putting pressure on someone is hard, because it is hard to do it the right way. Just yelling is unneeded and pointless. Get your point across, if you need to put some stress into it, start timing everything they do.

ZigZag911

And, of course, any reasonable person recognizes that the type and level of pressure one can put on a 12 year old cadet needs to differ from that put on an 18 year old military recruit by a highly trained instructor who is also a professional NCO.

J.American

I just had the opportunity to be a Flight Sergeant at the FLWG Encampment.  Honestly, the only times I had to yell were when I had to so that the entire flight could hear me, or I was raising my volume to that they would as well (teaching to sound off and such).  Other than that, I just spoke clearly and sternly if necessary.  Yelling has its place, but its not necessary often. 
C/2d LT Ricketts
SER-AL-087

nesagsar

Yelling can be a great tool and should not be instantly discounted. The idea is to establish that the yelling is not about anger but instead about urgency. When I was a cadet the only reason I would yell is to prevent danger or to encourage faster production. For younger cadets it is difficult to distinguish the two while using them but by the time you are 17 you should be able to do it correctly. If I wanted to convey anger or inspire fear I would go by the stern and ticked off example. Think of Sgt Major Plumley in "We Were Soldiers".

JoeTomasone

#57
Quote from: J.American on January 20, 2011, 03:43:30 AM
I just had the opportunity to be a Flight Sergeant at the FLWG Encampment.  Honestly, the only times I had to yell were when I had to so that the entire flight could hear me, or I was raising my volume to that they would as well (teaching to sound off and such).  Other than that, I just spoke clearly and sternly if necessary.  Yelling has its place, but its not necessary often.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The few times I had to dress someone down at Encampment, my voice was barely audible a few feet away.   Your tone and demeanor speak volumes all by themselves.   There was no mistaking the fact that I was unhappy, and those I addressed got the message loud and clear even if I wasn't.     

If you are a good leader, those you command should want to excel out of pride in themselves and to make you proud of them.   They should never feel compelled to excel out of fear.    Your mere disappointment in substandard performance should be all that is necessary to inspire greater effort - in other words, ideally, substandard performers should be reprimanding themselves much more often than they are being reprimanded.

EMT-83

Of course cadets are too young to remember the ad campaign, "If you want to get someone's attention, whisper".

SII-117

Quote from: Daniel L on July 27, 2010, 01:58:13 AM
Quote from: capme on July 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
Now, I am not saying we should turn into the Cub Scouts, group hug, everyone wins mentality

Why not I am?

but seriously, all staff have rst. You should see that one which is the relationship between stress and efficiency.

if there isn't any competition, then in reality everyone loses.
If there isn't any hardship, then your achievement is meaningless.
But this only goes to a certain extent. :-\
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup.

SII-117

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 30, 2010, 12:16:22 AM
There is a difference between hard and stupid. Yelling just to yell, that is stupid. Yelling because some one is in danger, good. Putting pressure on someone is hard, because it is hard to do it the right way. Just yelling is unneeded and pointless. Get your point across, if you need to put some stress into it, start timing everything they do.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup.