CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: flyguy06 on March 09, 2009, 03:53:12 PM

Title: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 09, 2009, 03:53:12 PM
The other day I attended a TLC session and we got to discussing topics such as Senior Members seriously knowing how and when to salute. And it made me think of the seriousness of CAP.

My unit has a new Senior member. He is an older gentleman but really gung ho. He is also a member of the SDF. We were talking about the comparison between the two organizations.

He tells me he likes CAP better as far as the mission. But he says as far as the military protocal and discipline, SDF is more. I remember the first meeting he came to. He was calling me sir and the Commander sir and everything. He was serious. Then as he realized CAP (or maybe its just our unit) is a lot more laxed than the normal military unit.

Now, getting back to the TLC session. The question arose why dont we salute each other, or come to attention when the Commander comes into the room. I asked the question would they know what to do if the Region Commander walked into the room. Heck, I asked how many of them even recognize the Region CC if he walked into the room? Not many raised their hands.

So, my question to this body is why arent we like the SDF in terms of military protocal and procedures? I know we all go through Level I and learn what to do, but how many of us actually apply that in our CAP lives?


One difference my new SM told me about this; In CAP a member can join do level I and NEVER do anything else in CAP. As long as they pay their dues every year they will remain a member of CAP. In the SDF if you dont do your job or do it substandardly, you can be reassigned or put out of the SDF. In CAP, their are no penalities for not doing your job. Or if there are penalties, they are not enforced.

I may be just talking about my area. But In my squadron, people have the attitude this is a "volunteer " organization and they do do as much or as little as they please. I dont think the SDF or the CG Aux has that same mentality. My question is why?

On another thread they asked about the CAP culture. I wonder about that myself. Again, at the TLC, the issue came up about cadets and how we train them. A lot of parents want to put their kids in a program tat teaches discpline and good manners and how to be a productgive citizen. Now that what what the brochures  say. In reality a lot of parents want to put theirs kids in a program that will whip them in shape. Well, CAP is not that program. The comment was made if you want your kids ina program like that, go see the Young Marines. So, my other question is why? Why isnt the CAP cadet program like the young marines? they have a good program.


SO, that is esentially my quetion. I hope I have worded it well, and I hope Ihave minimized the spelling errors. I always get called out on my spelling but I type fast and dont spellcheck. Sorry.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: capchiro on March 09, 2009, 04:07:36 PM
For one thing, if the SDF is activated, they are paid at their grade level.  That brings a different level of professionalism to the table.  For another, they are Army based and we are Air Force based and there is a difference in the "militaryism" between the two.  Also, the SDF uses the Marine Corps materials for their OCS training and they do have an organized OCS program versus our Level 1, six months in.  We are a lot less formal beast than they are.  However, our professionalism is not secondary to theirs when it comes to missions and our accomplishments.  I do question having Majors and Lt. Col.s doing police calls and picking up trash and cigarette butts during week-end drill.  I have participated in such with the SDF and don't consider that to be the pinnacle of professionalism  As usual, JMHO.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
The thing is, were are like the SDF, its just not taught and enforced properly.

We're supposed to salute, use "Sir" liberally, bring a room to attention when a commander or superior officer enters a room, and we're supposed to make an issue of it when these things don't happen.

The discipline, respect, and attitude of seriousness (i.e. this isn't a condo board meeting, or the PTA) is important to recognizing the chain and the authority of superiors during other operational aspects.

We've allowed this attitude of "you're lucky I showed up at all" to permeate the very culture of the organization, and then we wonder why we have issues with respect from other services, big brother blue, etc.

If its not being done, it should be corrected, positively, professionally and immediately.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 09, 2009, 04:11:39 PM
This is one of my pet peeves.    As a cadet, I did have consequences for failure to wear my uniform properly, obey proper authority, observe customs and courtesies, and to conduct myself in as much of a professional manner as you can expect of a cadet.  

When I rejoined as a SM, I was a little taken aback at some of the informality I observed.

When I moved to FLWG, I was in abject shock.  I observe on a continual basis:

Uniform issues:  Cadets at Group/Wing activities with BDUs and nothing on them - no patches, grade insignia, nametapes, nothing -- and no one saying a word.   Cadet officers with metal insignia on BDUs.  Cadets and SMs not stowing their BDU hat in their cargo pockets, even when they KNOW that's what 39-1 requires.    Cutouts wildly off and no senior cadets correcting/helping.     In my cadet days, if you didn't show up with the proper uniform, it was corrected.   If it was uncorrectable (missing patch, say), home you went.   

Customs/Courtesies:  Senior members addressing cadets by first name (and other cadets doing so as well).   Complete lack of "sir/ma'am" from darn near everyone to darn near everyone.     Occasional saluting.    

I actually had one Lt. Col. tell me that he didn't want to be addressed as "sir".   I politely informed him that I would gladly accommodate his request as soon as he removed his oak leaves.  

Now for me, as a Group Staff member, I don't feel that it's my place to correct the members in my Squadrons -- I feel that it is properly the job of the Unit Commanders.  However, they largely don't appear to be doing anything about it.   Every so often I will mention something privately to a member so that I don't go completely mental about it.

I really get annoyed at the implicit peer pressure to relax MY standards to fit in with those who don't share them.    But since I am obviously vastly outnumbered, I'm not sure if it's better to be the lone wolf standard bearer or just say, "screw it" and not give a crap like everyone else.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 04:17:05 PM
I prefer being the lone wolf - it also shows people you are paying attention.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: MIKE on March 09, 2009, 04:19:36 PM
It's kind of hard to take the "false militarism" seriously when you put on the uniform and go meet in a church basement or the tiny FBO of some rural airport.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 09, 2009, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: MIKE on March 09, 2009, 04:19:36 PM
It's kind of hard to take the "false militarism" seriously when you put on the uniform and go meet in a church basement or the tiny FBO of some rural airport.


I never had a problem with it.   

As a Cadet, my Squadron meetings were at an American Legion post.   Our Group HQ was a building at a smaller airport (ISP).   

Our current Squadrons meet in a decent cross-section - from USAF bases to airports to schools and churches - and not a one could be said to be much better/worse than any of the others.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Rotorhead on March 09, 2009, 04:35:40 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
We've allowed this attitude of "you're lucky I showed up at all" to permeate the very culture of the organization, and then we wonder why we have issues with respect from other services, big brother blue, etc.

One of the biggest problems this organizations faces, overall, in my opinion.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Ned on March 09, 2009, 04:35:49 PM
You know, it's a small world.

After I retired from the Guard, I elected to continue to participate in the CA SMR.  Mostly to continue to hang with my buds and occasionally do Good Things for the state.

In fact, since my Guard job was working in the G-3 shop at state headquarters as a Training Officer and my new job in the SMR was working in the 3 shop at State Headquarters as a Training Officer, all I had to do was change a single patch.

(And it was velcro.   ;))

But the eerie parallels between CAP and the SMR are amusing.

In CAP we sit around trying to figure out how to get troops to attend skill and leadership training on the weekends, since it costs them time and money to attend.

In the SMR we sit around trying to figure out how to get troops to attend skill and leadership training on the weekends, since it costs them time and money to attend.


In CAP we work very hard to line up quality instructors and training materials for our training.  But when you can't pay the instructors and they have to cover their own travel and lodging (usually), it can be hard.

In the SMR we . . . .


In CAP, we worry about some of our members being large and unfit - to the point that they might not be able to do their jobs during a mission.

In the SMR, we worry about . . . .


Well, you get the idea.


Interestingly, there are some synergies to be had.  We have used SMR folks to help run the rifle range at a CAP encampment, and we have plans to use CAP folks to run a dining hall for an SMR training activity.

But in terms of culture, the biggest differences come from the fact that the majority of SMR folks are former military of one type or another.  So they are used to an Army-type culture (saluting, formations, standing when senior officers come into the room, etc.)  And there are enough retired SMAJs wandering around to please any CAP uniform Nazi.

Like CAP, it is always amusing to watch SMR folks actually do a formation or march.  Sure they are former military (mostly), but some of them haven't marched in decades.

So from my view, the organizations are far more alike culturally than either would like to admit.


Ned Lee
Retired Army Guard Guy
LTC, CSMR
CAP Guy
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Grumpy on March 09, 2009, 04:51:48 PM
One of the things that help bring down the professionalism is having a 1st Lt as the squadron commander and a Major or Lt Col as his executive officer.  Like, what's wrong with this picture, other then it was the Lt that would step up to the plate and take the CC spot.

And yes, check your spelling.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on March 09, 2009, 04:51:48 PM
One of the things that help bring down the professionalism is having a 1st Lt as the squadron commander and a Major or Lt Col as his executive officer.  Like, what's wrong with this picture, other then it was the Lt that would step up to the plate and take the CC spot.

And yes, check your spelling.

Our messy command structure does not preclude people from using "Sir", saluting, or any of the other things Fly mentions.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Grumpy on March 09, 2009, 05:12:58 PM
I agree with you there.  I guess my statement was meant more along the lines of if you're worried about the professionalism in one area you should should bring it up to par in ALL areas.  I merely used my statement about duty positions as an example.  Probably a poor choice.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 09, 2009, 05:15:44 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 09, 2009, 03:53:12 PM
SO, that is esentially my quetion. I hope I have worded it well, and I hope Ihave minimized the spelling errors. I always get called out on my spelling but I type fast and dont spellcheck. Sorry.

Why not? It would make the post that much more legitament, and easier to understand.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 05:21:18 PM
Firefox has integrated spell check - it underlines words misspelled as you type - right click and correct.

Tripping over typos or poor grammar does effect a post's impact, especially in longer messages - that's why mine are
usually edited a bunch of times because I noticed a !@#$% typo, etc.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: NCRblues on March 09, 2009, 05:53:26 PM
If officers do not enforce the basic customs and courtesies, than how can you expect them to give orders during a sar mission or any other real world mission. Saluting, sir and ma'am are stepping stones for following basic commands. Everyone should enforce it. The statement at the bottom of my post says it all....
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: ThorntonOL on March 09, 2009, 06:18:20 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on March 09, 2009, 04:51:48 PM
One of the things that help bring down the professionalism is having a 1st Lt as the squadron commander and a Major or Lt Col as his executive officer.  Like, what's wrong with this picture, other then it was the Lt that would step up to the plate and take the CC spot.

Well in my squadron's case at the time we had a Major and a LT Col. but they where on the list in name only as they lived out of state or where active duty. So all we had where Lts at the time my dad took over as Squadron commander. The Commander before him had stepped in for the Commander before him as he was moving, so when the current SM's knew more about the program he picked my dad to take over for him.
Which was fine as all we had where Sm, 2nd Lts and 1st Lts then another unit was split so to speak and we ended up with most of their higher ranking staff. At the same time one of our seniors who was formerly navy recieved the equilvalent of his miltary rank makeing him a Lt. Col. So we then ended up having deputy commander's and other staff member's higher ranking than the commander, about two-three years ago the Lt. col took over for the commander who wanted to step down.
So we had a situation like that but only due to the influx from the other squadron.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: LtCol057 on March 09, 2009, 06:20:44 PM
JoeT, I have to agree with your posting. I'm a former cadet (back in 1970) and a former USAR E-5. I've been a senior member since 1990. When I first joined as a SM, everything was different from now. The members took pride in their uniforms. If there was a problem with a uniform, find a cadet. They knew the uniform regs, forward and back. Customs and Courtesies were never a problem, except for new seniors. My squadron could get a GT or AC ready for a mission in 30 minutes. Regs were followed. If you didn't do your job, you were either asked to not renew or changed to Patron.

It changed, at least in my squadron, when we got a new commander. He was more lax about some things and stricter about others. Then over the years, we changed commanders every year it seemed. And it got worse. They didn't care about the squadron as long as they got their flight time.  I know for a solid year, our cadets never saw the squadron commander. He never came to a cadet meeting. The then Deputy Commander started letting things slide in the cadet program. Cadets were getting promoted whether they passed all the tests or not. He even gave cadets Commanders Commendations just for going to an encampment and not leaving early.  Nevermind that they weren't legit.  I got tired of my complaints falling on deaf ears so I left and went to Wing staff.

Now, last year, I took over as Commander.  I froze all cadet promotions until I could verify paperwork. I heard some  grumbling about it.  I got a new Deputy Commander Cadets, and he's doing an excellent job. I'm at most cadet meetings, even if just in the background.  

But now my problem is with the seniors. We had 22 seniors on the roster. Some haven't been to a meeting in several years.  I sent them a letter informing them I'm changing them to Patron member or transferring them to the ghost squadron. Most of the flying types quit coming because we lost the plane because of something that happened before I took over. I've told them that I will NOT accept the "I don't have to because I'm a volunteer" excuse. Just recently had my PAO quit because of "technology making him obsolete". But he said he'll still be available to fly. Wrong answer. If he's not helping the squadron by doing a job, he's not going to fly. PERIOD!!!!   I told him that he might want to save his money and not renew this year.

Anyway, to get back on track, I guess I'm at fault too because I don't like to be addressed as "sir" by someone that's older than me. But when the cadets are around, I expect it, from cadets and the senior members.  I think I've paid my dues, no pun intended, but I've worked for my grade of Lt Col.  I didn't come in as a Lt Col. I started as a SM, went thru the professional development training. Still have to do NSC for my GRW. That's the only thing holding me back.

Sorry this has been so long. It's a sore spot for me.  
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: jimmydeanno on March 09, 2009, 06:27:46 PM
It could very well be the unfamiliarity and awkwardness that people have with military customs and courtesies.  Even once commonly held traditions and protocols like calling everyone "Sir" or "Ma'am" until you were on a first name basis with them have gone to the wayside.

We have a very informal society today and bringing formality into it makes many people uncomfortable, especially if they weren't raised or haven't been exposed to it before.

At work, I call my boss by his first name.  My first day I referred to him as "Mr. Soandso" and he quickly told me not to.  I complied, even though I was raised otherwise.

In the south there's a tradition of calling people in positions of authority, that you are slightly acquainted with "Mr. [First Name]" or "Ms. [First Name]."  I worked at Langley AFB for about two years and was routinely referred to as "Mr. Jason."  Now that was awkward.

So, what we get is a squadron far removed from the reach of everything military and it's more comfortable for people to refer to each other as "Jim" and "Bob."  Everyone knows that "Bob" makes the decisions.

Then you get the 'wannabe' argument where people don't want to be viewed as though they are pretending to be something they're not (BTW, I was called a "Part-time junior birdman" the other day ).

But, long story short, I genuinely think it is because of peoples ignorance in things military.  The less you do something the more foreign and awkward it is when someone actually does it.  Done enough though and it becomes second nature, which is where most seniors don't get.  They get this great idea to 'step up the standards.'  It lasts about a week because people feel awkward and you revert back to the norm.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:02:52 PM
F Troop.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RogueLeader on March 09, 2009, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:02:52 PM
F Troop

Ha ha ha rotflmao. 

You really just made my day.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:24:47 PM
We are not military.  So get over it.

Those who insist on forcing military protocol on a non-military organization, on members who don't care to be military when they are not, are creating F Troop.

Many members want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms.  Without rank.

That is better than when so many wear Air Force style, and wear it wrong.  Which is more embarassing?

And what about my good friend from Kansas who just doesn't want to wear Lt Col in CAP, when he was an O-6 in the real Air Force?

What we need is more diversity training.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 09:28:38 PM
^ Sorry, we're paramilitary with specific regulations (as well as traditions) that are not optional.

Don't want to wear rank?  Fine, your call.  That doesn't relieve you of adhering to customs and courtesies.

Just want to "fly for free"?  Fine, your call.  That doesn't relieve you of adhering to customs and courtesies.

Don't like the paramilitary environment?  I'm sure the ARC, Salvation Army, or your local CERT will be very happy to engage your services - and when you get a look at the rules and training requirements that the ARC has, you may be surprised.

Quote from: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:24:47 PM
And what about my good friend from Kansas who just doesn't want to wear Lt Col in CAP, when he was an O-6 in the real Air Force?

His call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:43:11 PM
We all observe customs and courtesies.

You want to salute?  Fine.  And I will respect you for that.
 
But don't criticize me, when I put my hand over my heart.

And please observe properly, especially on a military installation. 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:48:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 09:28:38 PMHis call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.

???

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?

I don't know of any.  Guess I don't get out much.

(But really I do get around and I do pay attention.)

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?


Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 09, 2009, 10:23:30 PM
Example: Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col.  But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars.  But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform :)
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: DG on March 09, 2009, 09:48:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 09:28:38 PMHis call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.

???

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?

Yes, an O-7 as in Retired Army Brigadier General.  Until fairly recently he was in my unit and wore his clusters with little comment.   As a matter of fact he was a legit SF guy with jump wings and all - used to command a hospital unit as I recall. Heck of a nice guy, too.

As a pilot/doctor/general we used to kid him about having no room to ever be wrong about anything because of conflicting God complexes.

He has since moved on to the CGAux and ARC as he preferred to fly his own airplane, and I can assure you he is not a Rear Admiral in the CGAux, yet somehow he finds the strength to get out of bed each morning.

There are a lot more former stars in CAP than you probably realize.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 01:27:10 AM
Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 01:46:33 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 01:27:10 AM
Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.

You'd might also be surprised how quickly members will step up when the commander starts raising the bar on expectations.
It all starts and ends there - if the CC is a slacker on the uniform and courtesies, what can you expect from the membership?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: jb512 on March 10, 2009, 01:46:39 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 01:27:10 AM
Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

Unfortunately I think you're right.  When I was a cadet I was in an overseas squadron where nearly 100% of the seniors and cadets were military or dependents.  I guess I got spoiled being in an environment where there was never any question about uniforms, customs and courtesies, and our place as an auxiliary of the AF.  The military was more than accommodating and I remember getting parachute survival training in a swimming pool, a ride on a Navy cruiser through the Panama Canal, and hosting of our encampments.

You can definitely tell the difference between squadrons on or near military bases where we embrace that influence vs. the civilian type squadrons who aren't all that interested.  I know that one cadet I was there with went to the AF Academy and I think two others got ROTC scholarships and that was considered normal.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 10, 2009, 03:08:12 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 01:27:10 AM
Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

You seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.

Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:13:47 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2009, 03:08:12 AM
Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?

No, if you consider the general lack of military customs and courtsies a problem in CAP, then the golf shirt is not the cause, but more of an impediment.  What I was saying was that so long as the golf shirt is around, its going to be very difficult to expect members to follow military C&C when they are in totally civilian clothes, especially when two members who do not know each other meet.

QuoteYou seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.
Well, CAP members are required by regulation to follow military C&C, so I think expecting that this be the case isn't unreasonable of me.  Perhaps CAP should drop those regulations so that the culture matches the regulations, but until they do its not me that is the problem, it is the people not doing what they're supposed to.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 10, 2009, 03:28:05 AM
To quote a favorite expression of my Region Vice Commander,

"It is what it is."

And it takes all of my energy and ability to figure out the way it is.

No way I can begin to ascertain and then tell you the way it should be.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 10, 2009, 03:40:47 AM
The traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies for members of the Civil Air Patrol apply to all of us and reflect our pride and professionalism as members of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 03:47:31 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
The thing is, were are like the SDF, its just not taught and enforced properly.

We're supposed to salute, use "Sir" liberally, bring a room to attention when a commander or superior officer enters a room, and we're supposed to make an issue of it when these things don't happen.

The discipline, respect, and attitude of seriousness (i.e. this isn't a condo board meeting, or the PTA) is important to recognizing the chain and the authority of superiors during other operational aspects.

We've allowed this attitude of "you're lucky I showed up at all" to permeate the very culture of the organization, and then we wonder why we have issues with respect from other services, big brother blue, etc.

If its not being done, it should be corrected, positively, professionally and immediately.

So, how did we allow this attitude togrow and why arent we doing something about it? Are we just concerned about "doing the mission" and less concerned about enforcing the standards.

Its not about trying to "play" military. Its about the standard. We all go through Level I and they talk about saluting and customs. I mean if you arent into it, this may not be the right organization for you. Its not a bad thing. It just is what it is. I think we need to enforce the standard.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: capchiro on March 10, 2009, 03:49:45 AM
In my original post, I mentioned a difference in the "militaryism" between the Army and the Air Force.  I believe I recently saw an article in the Air Force Times addressing this exact issue and discussing the lack of "militaryism" in today's Air Force.  There is much more familiarization between officers and Airmen in today's service and a lack of traditional customs and courtesies, specifically mentioning personnel being on first name basis, not wearing of hats, disregarding saluting, etc.  There is a blurring of the line between officers and enlisted.  There are few officer clubs noe, mostly "consolidated" clubs.  A little tough drinking and maintaining proper protocol at the same bar.  Enlisted technicians are better educated ever before and some of their jobs are as demanding as their commissioned brothers.  It's not just us, but we are a reflection of Big Blue.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Rotorhead on March 10, 2009, 03:57:35 AM
Quote from: DG on March 10, 2009, 03:40:47 AM
The traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies for members of the Civil Air Patrol apply to all of us and reflect our pride and professionalism as members of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.

True. But you're contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said:

Quote from: DG on March 10, 2009, 03:40:47 AM
We are not military.  So get over it.

Those who insist on forcing military protocol on a non-military organization, on members who don't care to be military when they are not, are creating F Troop.

So which is it?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 10, 2009, 03:59:55 AM
Saluting is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chicago_Pilot on March 10, 2009, 04:03:44 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 09, 2009, 06:27:46 PM
It could very well be the unfamiliarity and awkwardness that people have with military customs and courtesies.  Even once commonly held traditions and protocols like calling everyone "Sir" or "Ma'am" until you were on a first name basis with them have gone to the wayside.

We have a very informal society today and bringing formality into it makes many people uncomfortable, especially if they weren't raised or haven't been exposed to it before.

I agree with this.  As a new Senior Member with no prior military experience, it feels very strange to salute.  For people like me, it really helps when other members set a good example.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 10, 2009, 04:18:31 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:13:47 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2009, 03:08:12 AM
Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?

No, if you consider the general lack of military customs and courtsies a problem in CAP, then the golf shirt is not the cause, but more of an impediment.  What I was saying was that so long as the golf shirt is around, its going to be very difficult to expect members to follow military C&C when they are in totally civilian clothes, especially when two members who do not know each other meet.

QuoteYou seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.
Well, CAP members are required by regulation to follow military C&C, so I think expecting that this be the case isn't unreasonable of me.  Perhaps CAP should drop those regulations so that the culture matches the regulations, but until they do its not me that is the problem, it is the people not doing what they're supposed to.

The funny thing is, we agree on that. Senior members should follow C&C.

However, it's not a matter of what a member wears, it's what their taught and how their cultivated through our culture.

I wear a golf shirt as a uniform shirt at my job occasionally, and you can't tell me I don't carry myself with as much professionalism and skill as if I'm in a button down shirt, or a tee shirt for that matter.

What happens when you great an officer in civilian clothes? Or a civilian? Or a congressmen? It doesn't effect the courtsey you show towards them.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Slim on March 10, 2009, 08:20:27 AM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.

No CSU option?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:09:23 PM
Quote from: capchiro on March 10, 2009, 03:49:45 AM
In my original post, I mentioned a difference in the "militaryism" between the Army and the Air Force.  I believe I recently saw an article in the Air Force Times addressing this exact issue and discussing the lack of "militaryism" in today's Air Force.  There is much more familiarization between officers and Airmen in today's service and a lack of traditional customs and courtesies, specifically mentioning personnel being on first name basis, not wearing of hats, disregarding saluting, etc.  There is a blurring of the line between officers and enlisted.  There are few officer clubs noe, mostly "consolidated" clubs.  A little tough drinking and maintaining proper protocol at the same bar.  Enlisted technicians are better educated ever before and some of their jobs are as demanding as their commissioned brothers.  It's not just us, but we are a reflection of Big Blue.


IIIII dont know about that one. There is no difference in military customs and curteousies in either service. If there were than it would be reflected when AF personnnel come in contact withother service personnel. Actually we are living in a more joint environment. many Joint Task Forces are poppong up that have joint service organization. For that reason We, in the military have a standard. Yeah we joke abouitthe lax nature of the AF but thats is just a stereotype. Trust me, If an Air Force Full Bird walked into a room full of lower ranking AF people, theyare going to come to attention. AF enlisted airmen are going to salute AF officers no doubt in my mind about that.

I do not think there is a lzck of traditional customs and cuteousies in todays Air Force. I just went to a seminar wirth Air and Army Guardsmen and the Commander of Northcom ( an AF four star General) was there and you better believe there was military curteousies payed to him.

Yes, youare correct service wide not just the AF they have done away with O clubs, biut that was like ten years ago when they did that.

Bottom line though in AP, our regs state that we follow military ustoms and curteousies and we are not doing that.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Chicago_Pilot on March 10, 2009, 04:03:44 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 09, 2009, 06:27:46 PM
It could very well be the unfamiliarity and awkwardness that people have with military customs and courtesies.  Even once commonly held traditions and protocols like calling everyone "Sir" or "Ma'am" until you were on a first name basis with them have gone to the wayside.

We have a very informal society today and bringing formality into it makes many people uncomfortable, especially if they weren't raised or haven't been exposed to it before.

I agree with this.  As a new Senior Member with no prior military experience, it feels very strange to salute.  For people like me, it really helps when other members set a good example.


I agree and thatis what we have to do. Set a good example. thats what leadership is all about. But what happens is we have members that were inthe military and they have the "been there, done that" mentality and they dont really "They dont want to do the whole saluting thing anymore. But we need to have pride in our CAP and show that pride by doing the right thing. I have read about ubits that actually have Senior Member formations, drill and  ceremonies even.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

I agree. I dont even own that blue golf shirt and grey pants. In my 24 years in CAP, I have always worn a military unifom. And no I am not a "military wannabe" I dont need to be. But I do believe in setting the example. I work with cadets and I need to show them how to wear the uniform properly. I think CAP should go to all military style uniforms. Either the Air Force style uniform or the White shirt/grey pants "only" for those not meeting height and weight standards. I think that will help in our professional image and with our relationship with the Air Force. Right now, I dont think they look at us the same way the Coast Guard looks at the CG Aux.

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 10, 2009, 01:35:59 PM
The United States Coast Guard Auxiliary is the civilian, uniformed volunteer component of the United States Coast Guard, as well as the lead volunteer force in the Department of Homeland Security. The 31,000 volunteer members (men and women) donate time in support of the Coast Guard and Maritime Domain Awareness missions.

Auxiliarists are authorized to wear uniforms similar to those of Coast Guard officers, but with distinctive insignia and devices.

Customs and Courtesies

The Auxiliary is nonmilitary, and Auxiliarists hold office instead of rank. However, courtesy and goodwill need to be observed. Certain military customs and courtesies of the Coast Guard do apply to Auxiliarists as follows:

Respect toward our Nation.
Courtesy aboard United States military vessels.
Respect and courtesy toward the flags, vessels, officials and other personnel of friendly nations.
Mutual respect and courtesy toward other Auxiliarists.

Saluting

Saluting is not usual, and not required between Auxiliarist members. It is, however, proper for Auxiliarists to salute when greeting members of the Armed Forces. Auxiliarists when out of doors, in uniform and covered, should:

Give a hand salute to officers of the Armed Forces more "senior" or equal (based on the number of stripes or metal rank insignia) to them.
Give a hand salute to the National Ensign:
When the flag is raised or lowered of the flag at morning and evening colors.
When the flag passes them in a parade.
When the National Anthem or Taps is played.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on March 10, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

As in, you don't make ht & wt, go away? >:( 

Since I rejoined as a senior member officer, I've never put on the USAF uniform because I know I don't make ht & wt. I wear my alternate uniform properly. But in your mind my combined 10 years experience, the PD I've both taken and taught, and ES ratings up to IC2 should be flushed?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: jimmydeanno on March 10, 2009, 01:58:51 PM
I love how people not saluting has been linked to them being overweight and therefore they shouldn't be in the organization.  What the heck is the matter with 'you people.'

Have you noticed that the people who demand higher standards and professionalism are, a lot of the time, the ones who are the most belligerent and intolerant? 

I don't know about the rest of you, but even though I have 12 years experience in this organization and am 'fit and trim', the person I go to when I need help with something ES related is the 'big fat guy' in my squadron.  When I need help with how to deal with an issue I haven't approached before, I go to the 'fat guy' with the goatee. 

I've learned more about people, leadership and general knowledge in CAP from those that people are so quick to dismiss than I ever have from those who would kick them out.

I think this is a perfect example of our 'culture.'
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: CAP Producer on March 10, 2009, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 10, 2009, 01:58:51 PM
I love how people not saluting has been linked to them being overweight and therefore they shouldn't be in the organization.  What the heck is the matter with 'you people.'

Have you noticed that the people who demand higher standards and professionalism are, a lot of the time, the ones who are the most belligerent and intolerant? 

I don't know about the rest of you, but even though I have 12 years experience in this organization and am 'fit and trim', the person I go to when I need help with something ES related is the 'big fat guy' in my squadron.  When I need help with how to deal with an issue I haven't approached before, I go to the 'fat guy' with the goatee. 

I've learned more about people, leadership and general knowledge in CAP from those that people are so quick to dismiss than I ever have from those who would kick them out.

I think this is a perfect example of our 'culture.'

Well Said.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 10, 2009, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

Who gives a wooden Nickle to what the 'State Defense Forces' do (what do they do again? Also, wasn't there a a discussion here a few months ago to the effect of we should drop Height and Weight because the Air Force 'authorizes' SDF's to wear the uniform?")

You don't need to be thin and trim to look and feel professional. You need to be............be........professional. You need to be willing to put the hours in, the sweat, the tears, the blood, the ulcers in.

As I've said before, don't put other people down because you have a vision of what the organization should be.

We don't want to 'turn people away' because then we wont be able to preform the Air Force assigned mission ya'll are so keen on preforming.

I'm a full time student  at a University, I'm part time at my EMS Academy for an advance EMT class, I work a full time and part time job (which is why I haven't been active in CAP of late) and I'm about twenty pounds over weight. If you prefer, when you're having a heart attack, you can weight for the thin movie poster crew to get there in pressed shirts with clean gear rather then overweight me in a pressed shirt and clean gear.

This is a classic example of CAP culture...........you're more worried about the guys looking good then what they can accomplish.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: heliodoc on March 10, 2009, 02:36:50 PM
As I have hinted before

Wanna be fit and trim??  Join the real miltary.

For those who have in the past, we have done it

CAP has a lot of talent........  for you WANNBEEE RM'ers.... join it and get off peoples' backs

We need all the talent we can get....get it through your heads  We are volunteers doing a service

SOOOON enough there will standards, if you folks think we can do ALL those DHS missions

Then we will see even those fit and trims drop off line if there are any fitness standards...

In the meantime, your ideas and weight and height...... 50 per cent of CAP would gone

Think about that  you wannbee SDFer and RMers'!!!!!

If u want all this draft it up and submit up the chain of command....that is a true RM statement...
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 10, 2009, 03:31:57 PM

"That Guy"

http://www.macdill.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123132532
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: heliodoc on March 10, 2009, 03:39:31 PM
Great article...

Maybe CAP should adopt a completely new uni with the graces of 1AF.. keep the funding coming BUT clear the way for the new uni for all the fit and trims and the fat guys

Again it would be nice to ENFORCE ENFORCE ENFORCE but again until the 1 AF General comes down and "hammers" requirements for 39-1 at NHQ....that "enforcement" has no legs....
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 03:41:01 PM
Quote from: Slim on March 10, 2009, 08:20:27 AM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.

No CSU option?

That is correct....the CSU is not an option.  Here is reasoning behind it:

1)  Unlike other members of CAP, chaplains wear the very same rating insignia as do the USAF active and reserve chaplains -- that is the emblem of their faith group.  In their role as a "force multiplier" with the military, Chaplains are not to wear the CSU.  Those serving as a "force multiplier" must meet certain criteria set forth by the USAF Chief of the Chaplain Corps: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf;

2)  While the CAP culture is great appreciated and embraced, at the same time the PCR Chaplain Corps is conducting its Staff College on an active USAF base.  We want to be gracious guests and fit into their culture (i.e. no ribbons on the short sleeve shirt -- strictly adhering to the  Customs and Courtesies -- wearing the USAF style uniform properly, etc.) and since the CSU is the "corporate uniform" it does have some close similarities to the USAF style that might raise some eyebrows from the real military types.  So the blazer combo and the white aviator/gray slacks-skirt uniform is the civilian uniform of choice.  Other Region Chaplain Corps may conduct their staff college at a conference/retreat center where the CSU could be worn (I have no problem with that) or may allow the CSU to be worn on an active military (there isn't a "set" policy on this), but it is something that the PCR Chaplain Corps has "traditionally" adopted/done as an act of respect to those who wear the uniform that we often interact with and encourages a more professional look.

My personal .002 in response to Riveraux's observations regarding the golf shirt/slacks at a Professional Development event:  leave that in your closet or wear the polo/golf shirt after hours or for traveling to and from the event.
But for SLS/CLC/UCC/RSC  these are "professional" development classes -- look the part by wearing the USAF-Style uniform, the Corporate Style Uniform, or the white aviator shirt/gray slacks-skirt or blazer combo....the event is held where we are in the eyes of others.   A uniform makes a statement.  
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Smithsonia on March 10, 2009, 03:52:55 PM
Remember the movie Midway. Not my favorite war movie but, there is a character who is breaking Japanese military codes (he's played by Hal Holbrook) He's meeting Adm. Nimitz in his bathrobe, chewing on worn-out cigars, messy hair, rumpled and less than squared away... but he's saving the day. The military has always tolerated these less than parade ground spit and polish types.

If you think that there's only one way to win a war... then you'll only be able to fight one war. In our case please substitute the word mission for the word war. In the military they have more reason to keep it square. In WW2 we looked more like the military too. That said, I've got white hair, not gray, white. I know more than anyone in the military about subjects that are important to CAP and the military. It is how I earned all the white hairs.

I am respectful of the uniform and protocols. My shoes are shined, my clothes are cleaned, my head is trimmed, etc. I am not respectful of the folks who like only one kind of man. I'll judge a person by performance and leave the silly uniformity to the sloped-brains that can think but one way. We aren't just a visual creature... we are a thinking one also. Try it occasionally. It doesn't actually hurt.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Short Field on March 10, 2009, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: phirons on March 10, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
But in your mind my combined 10 years experience, the PD I've both taken and taught, and ES ratings up to IC2 should be flushed?

That's ok, he feels the same about me since I put on 15 lbs since retiring.  Active duty I was measured using body fat, now it is a flat ht/wt number.  I didn't meet the Ht/Wt number when I had 17% body fat!
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Gunner C on March 10, 2009, 08:52:41 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.
Holy cow!  The chaplains are leading the way.  The line officers around them should be embarrassed.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: LtCol Hooligan on March 10, 2009, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 03:41:01 PM
That is correct....the CSU is not an option.  Here is reasoning behind it:

1)  Unlike other members of CAP, chaplains wear the very same rating insignia as do the USAF active and reserve chaplains -- that is the emblem of their faith group.  In their role as a "force multiplier" with the military, Chaplains are not to wear the CSU.  Those serving as a "force multiplier" must meet certain criteria set forth by the USAF Chief of the Chaplain Corps: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf;

2)  While the CAP culture is great appreciated and embraced, at the same time the PCR Chaplain Corps is conducting its Staff College on an active USAF base.  We want to be gracious guests and fit into their culture (i.e. no ribbons on the short sleeve shirt -- strictly adhering to the  Customs and Courtesies -- wearing the USAF style uniform properly, etc.) and since the CSU is the "corporate uniform" it does have some close similarities to the USAF style that might raise some eyebrows from the real military types.  So the blazer combo and the white aviator/gray slacks-skirt uniform is the civilian uniform of choice.  Other Region Chaplain Corps may conduct their staff college at a conference/retreat center where the CSU could be worn (I have no problem with that) or may allow the CSU to be worn on an active military (there isn't a "set" policy on this), but it is something that the PCR Chaplain Corps has "traditionally" adopted/done as an act of respect to those who wear the uniform that we often interact with and encourages a more professional look.

My personal .002 in response to Riveraux's observations regarding the golf shirt/slacks at a Professional Development event:  leave that in your closet or wear the polo/golf shirt after hours or for traveling to and from the event.
But for SLS/CLC/UCC/RSC  these are "professional" development classes -- look the part by wearing the USAF-Style uniform, the Corporate Style Uniform, or the white aviator shirt/gray slacks-skirt or blazer combo....the event is held where we are in the eyes of others.   A uniform makes a statement.

Chappie,
The link you posted is broken.  I was hoping to read it as I was confused by the force multiplier comment.  Are you saying that only those who meet certain standards can do this?  I have met a lot of chaplans who wear the CSU and actually I believe the first person I saw wearing the CSU was a chaplain.  

I also had a question on your statement about how chaplains wearing the CSU will raise some eye brows from those in the military.  I think that is the case for any CAP uniform where the member has never been exposed to CAP before.  The grey shoulder boards get interesting looks on the blues uniform.  I think it is an opportunity have a conversation about what CAP is along with the Chaplain core is.  Now I have never worn the CSU and I agree that we have a lot of uniforms, but it seems strange to limit the wear of a specific uniform when it fits the professional develop level of the school.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 09:29:02 PM
^+1 (at the least)

I've written about three different responses to that quoted text above, and hit delete on all of them, deciding to erect a
"Somebody Else's Problem Field" around it instead.

However I thing the reasoning provided is misguided and just alienates members.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: phirons on March 10, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

As in, you don't make ht & wt, go away? >:( 

Since I rejoined as a senior member officer, I've never put on the USAF uniform because I know I don't make ht & wt. I wear my alternate uniform properly. But in your mind my combined 10 years experience, the PD I've both taken and taught, and ES ratings up to IC2 should be flushed?

And I have 20 years of military service. i am also a civilan flight instructor. but guess what? I dont meet the requirements to be a military pilot. So, yes,as much as I would love to fly jets, it aint gonna happen and I just have to learn to accept that I don tmeet the standards no matter how good I think I am. Again, that swhat i mean. We want to "accomadate" evertyone and we dont want to "hurt" anyones feelings and becaue of that attitude we have let our standards go down. No I am not talking specifically about ht & wt standards. that was just an example. I mean we dont enforce standards becaue we dont want to hurt anyones feelings. i am sure there are a lot of great people out there that could be a police officer, but if they dont meet ALL the requirements guess what? they cant be a police officer.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 10:00:34 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2009, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

Who gives a wooden Nickle to what the 'State Defense Forces' do (what do they do again? Also, wasn't there a a discussion here a few months ago to the effect of we should drop Height and Weight because the Air Force 'authorizes' SDF's to wear the uniform?")

You don't need to be thin and trim to look and feel professional. You need to be............be........professional. You need to be willing to put the hours in, the sweat, the tears, the blood, the ulcers in.

As I've said before, don't put other people down because you have a vision of what the organization should be.

We don't want to 'turn people away' because then we wont be able to preform the Air Force assigned mission ya'll are so keen on preforming.

I'm a full time student  at a University, I'm part time at my EMS Academy for an advance EMT class, I work a full time and part time job (which is why I haven't been active in CAP of late) and I'm about twenty pounds over weight. If you prefer, when you're having a heart attack, you can weight for the thin movie poster crew to get there in pressed shirts with clean gear rather then overweight me in a pressed shirt and clean gear.

This is a classic example of CAP culture...........you're more worried about the guys looking good then what they can accomplish.

Iwasnt trying to go off in a conversation about ht and wt. Apparently I have wounded some folks so I am sorry. But the point wasnt abou tht and wt. That was an example. the point was about standards. Either you meet them or you dont. If I dont pass my fire arms qualification, guess what I cant be a cop anymore no matter how fit I am or how good I am at my job. I realize there are a lot of technically qulified folks in CAP. But its an all encompassing program. You cant say "well, we meet some of the standards so that ok." We cant say just because we dont like this particular standard its ok to overlook it.

What if I took a student pilot and trained him. He does stalls, slow flight, turns around a piont beautifuly He lands like a pro, but he cant to Soft field landings which is a standard. DO I say wel he does 90% of the standrads right so i wil just pass him anyway? Is that the attitude I should take?


Again, this isnt about weight or height. its about an image. a standard. If we are to be taken seriously we need to enforce our standards and look like we want to be taken seriously or else The Air Force will continue to look at us like a joke
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 10:17:25 PM
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on March 10, 2009, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 03:41:01 PM
That is correct....the CSU is not an option.  Here is reasoning behind it:

1)  Unlike other members of CAP, chaplains wear the very same rating insignia as do the USAF active and reserve chaplains -- that is the emblem of their faith group.  In their role as a "force multiplier" with the military, Chaplains are not to wear the CSU.  Those serving as a "force multiplier" must meet certain criteria set forth by the USAF Chief of the Chaplain Corps: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf;

2)  While the CAP culture is great appreciated and embraced, at the same time the PCR Chaplain Corps is conducting its Staff College on an active USAF base.  We want to be gracious guests and fit into their culture (i.e. no ribbons on the short sleeve shirt -- strictly adhering to the  Customs and Courtesies -- wearing the USAF style uniform properly, etc.) and since the CSU is the "corporate uniform" it does have some close similarities to the USAF style that might raise some eyebrows from the real military types.  So the blazer combo and the white aviator/gray slacks-skirt uniform is the civilian uniform of choice.  Other Region Chaplain Corps may conduct their staff college at a conference/retreat center where the CSU could be worn (I have no problem with that) or may allow the CSU to be worn on an active military (there isn't a "set" policy on this), but it is something that the PCR Chaplain Corps has "traditionally" adopted/done as an act of respect to those who wear the uniform that we often interact with and encourages a more professional look.

My personal .002 in response to Riveraux's observations regarding the golf shirt/slacks at a Professional Development event:  leave that in your closet or wear the polo/golf shirt after hours or for traveling to and from the event.
But for SLS/CLC/UCC/RSC  these are "professional" development classes -- look the part by wearing the USAF-Style uniform, the Corporate Style Uniform, or the white aviator shirt/gray slacks-skirt or blazer combo....the event is held where we are in the eyes of others.   A uniform makes a statement.  


Chappie,
The link you posted is broken.  I was hoping to read it as I was confused by the force multiplier comment.  Are you saying that only those who meet certain standards can do this?  I have met a lot of chaplans who wear the CSU and actually I believe the first person I saw wearing the CSU was a chaplain.  

I also had a question on your statement about how chaplains wearing the CSU will raise some eye brows from those in the military.  I think that is the case for any CAP uniform where the member has never been exposed to CAP before.  The grey shoulder boards get interesting looks on the blues uniform.  I think it is an opportunity have a conversation about what CAP is along with the Chaplain core is.  Now I have never worn the CSU and I agree that we have a lot of uniforms, but it seems strange to limit the wear of a specific uniform when it fits the professional develop level of the school.

Unfortunately, the link picked up the semi-colon.  Try this:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf

And if that link doesn't work, here is the text:   Military Support Guidelines for CAP Chaplains

When CAP Chaplains are called upon to perform military support on a military base, or in performance of duties requested by active duty, guard or reserve units (i.e. military funerals, chapel support, etc), follow the procedures below.  NOTE:  The Air Force Chaplain Service requirements for supporting chapel programs on AF bases are meeting the requirements of AFI 52-101,2.3,1:;AFI 52-102 and DoD Directive 1304:19.  This means: CAP Chaplains must hold an earned baccalaureate and seminary degree from accredited institutions and these credentials must be on file along with their ecclesiastical endorsement in the office of the base Wing Chaplain.  These credentials should be readily available and ideally on file at the AF chapel office BEFORE being requested for support.

1. A written request or invitation must be received from the requesting party on official stationary that will be copied to the CAP Wing Commander and Wing Chaplain.  Approval must be first given at the CAP wing level before accepting and performing the request.

2. The CAP Wing Commander and Chaplain will validate and concur on eligibility to serve and wear the Air Force style uniform if that uniform is required for the duty.  (CAP personnel must meet Air Force standards to wear the Air Force style uniform at any time.)

3. The CAP Wing Commander will request an MSA (Military Support Authorization) issued by the State Director.  This authorization serves as the Chaplain Service personnel's orders allowing for billeting and limited base services.

4. Authorization to perform duties does not place any liability upon the host organization.  CAP members acting in official capacity are covered under CAP liability.

5. Under no circumstances should anyone proceed directly to support activities on military bases without proper CAP command authorization and the issuing of a MSA.

6. Upon completion of duty, an after-action report should be written describing everything that was done, noting strengths, weaknesses, and recommendations for future reference.  Copies should go to the CAP Wing Commander, CAP Wing Chaplain, the supervising Military Chaplain and the Chief of Chaplain Service, Civil Air Patrol.

* * * * * *

Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.   However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

While attending a course at the Chaplain Service Institute with members of the active/reserve components of the USAF Chaplain Corps, the gray epaulets were certainly different than the blue -- but the rest of the uniform certainly matched -- and it didn't hurt to have the USAF Chief of Chaplains explain to the class who those CAP-types were and that we were part of their operations :)

There are many PD schools that are held and I am in total agreement with the observations that RiverAux made concerning the golf/polo shirt.  We should wear a more formal uniform when attending those events be it the USAF-style, CSU, Blazer Combo or White aviator/gray slacks/skirt.   Keep the standard of uniform wear established for National Staff College.  

My comments regarding the wearing only the USAF uniform were specific only to the one event -- PCR Chaplain Corps Service College.  It is one way we are endeavoring to build upon our existing relationship with the USAF Chaplain Corps since our meetings are held in the Chapel Centers.   


Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 10:21:17 PM
Quote from: phirons on March 10, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
Since I rejoined as a senior member officer

Actually, its always been senior member, "officer" was rightly flushed last year.
(I'm updating SIMS and just noticed its all over there and needs to be corrected)
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 10:17:25 PM
Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.  However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

Two issues - first, very few of our Chaplains ever perform any service to other military services.

Second, if you are interpreting the regs above to say that only one specific uniform combination is approved for wear by CAP Chaplains in performance of their "force multiplier" role, that's simply an incorrect interpretation.

As MSA is a very simple document that contains names authorized for base access, there are certainly no mention of approved or preferred uniforms in any MSA I've ever seen, nor mention of same in any of the chaplain-related regulations, nor does the text above.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 10:35:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 10:17:25 PM
Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.  However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

Two issues - first, very few of our Chaplains ever perform any service to other military services.

Second, if you are interpreting the regs above to say that only one specific uniform combination is approved for wear by CAP Chaplains in performance of their "force multiplier" role, that's simply an incorrect interpretation.

As MSA is a very simple document that contains names authorized for base access, there are certainly no mention of approved or preferred uniforms in any MSA I've ever seen, nor mention of same in any of the chaplain-related regulations, nor does the text above.

Not bad for just a few Chaplains :)

"FORCE MULTIPLIERS" TO USAF 2008

Participated in 521 activities/events
Hours involved: 2152
Miles traveled:  23,464
Money invested: $5,150.78

"FORCE MULTIPLIERS" TO OTHER BRANCHES 2008

Participated in 479 activities/events
Hours involved: 657
Miles traveled:  14,791
Money invested: $5,561.64

(Information from the Jan-Jun Jul-Dec 2008     Form 34As)

The reference is not to the MSA (Military Support Authorization).  It is to a Chaplain Corps policy called "Military Support Guidelines" - part of the MOU between the USAF Chaplain Corps and the CAP Chaplain Corps.  They are our customer.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 10, 2009, 10:54:13 PM
The value of the service provided isn't connected to the uniform worn, unless you have statistics that show all the times our Chaplains were turned away at the gate because the guards were "confused" by our uniforms.

Perhaps PCR is flush with personnel and can afford to alienate members based on a subjective evaluation that one of our uniforms is in appropriate.  My personal understanding is that most regions and wings are not in that position and would be happy to have more clergy participate regardless of which uniform they choose (assuming they wear it correctly and look sharp).
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RRLE on March 10, 2009, 10:55:20 PM
QuoteGive a hand salute to officers of the Armed Forces more "senior" or equal (based on the number of stripes or metal rank insignia) to them.

The quote above (from an earlier post) about USCG Aux saluting is not correct. All Auxies salutes all officers of all services regardless of respective rank and office. That means the 3 star National Commodore of the USCG Aux salutes the newest minted Ensign or CWO.  Some don't like that and have tried to change it over the years but the reg remains.

The real quote from the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan) is 1.A.5.a. Saluting

QuoteAuxiliarists, when out of doors, in uniform and covered, should:
• As a courtesy, initiate, or return a hand salute to commissioned officers.

Notice that the words "more senior" do not appear in the manual. All Auxies salute all military officers.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: MIKE on March 10, 2009, 11:03:55 PM
But it also says "initiate, or return" which implies the same thing... Otherwise it would say: initiate a hand salute to commissioned officers.

Back to topic.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on March 10, 2009, 08:52:41 PM
Quote from: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.
Holy cow!  The chaplains are leading the way.  The line officers around them should be embarrassed.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and affirmation.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2009, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2009, 03:06:43 AM
Quote1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

Didn't mean for the thread to get hijacked...but was trying to enforce Riveraux's observation here in this post.   Just pointing out that at a Region Level Professional Development event -- i.e. school (not a training exercise or workshop) -- a standard for uniform wear has been established that will reflect professionalism -- which should be a source of pride for all who participate and bring a measure of pride to the organization.  He implored us to work at it and set the example...exactly what our efforts are endeavoring to do.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: SarDragon on March 10, 2009, 11:46:26 PM
Quote from: Short Field on March 10, 2009, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: phirons on March 10, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
But in your mind my combined 10 years experience, the PD I've both taken and taught, and ES ratings up to IC2 should be flushed?

That's ok, he feels the same about me since I put on 15 lbs since retiring.  Active duty I was measured using body fat, now it is a flat ht/wt number.  I didn't meet the Ht/Wt number when I had 17% body fat!

OTOH, I still meet ht/wt standards, but do not pass for body fat. I retired from the Navy almost 20 yrs ago.

I'm not allowed to wear the AF-style uniforms because of my beard.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 11, 2009, 12:07:02 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 10:00:34 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2009, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 10, 2009, 01:23:17 PM

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

Who gives a wooden Nickle to what the 'State Defense Forces' do (what do they do again? Also, wasn't there a a discussion here a few months ago to the effect of we should drop Height and Weight because the Air Force 'authorizes' SDF's to wear the uniform?")

You don't need to be thin and trim to look and feel professional. You need to be............be........professional. You need to be willing to put the hours in, the sweat, the tears, the blood, the ulcers in.

As I've said before, don't put other people down because you have a vision of what the organization should be.

We don't want to 'turn people away' because then we wont be able to preform the Air Force assigned mission ya'll are so keen on preforming.

I'm a full time student  at a University, I'm part time at my EMS Academy for an advance EMT class, I work a full time and part time job (which is why I haven't been active in CAP of late) and I'm about twenty pounds over weight. If you prefer, when you're having a heart attack, you can weight for the thin movie poster crew to get there in pressed shirts with clean gear rather then overweight me in a pressed shirt and clean gear.

This is a classic example of CAP culture...........you're more worried about the guys looking good then what they can accomplish.

Iwasnt trying to go off in a conversation about ht and wt. Apparently I have wounded some folks so I am sorry. But the point wasnt abou tht and wt. That was an example. the point was about standards. Either you meet them or you dont. If I dont pass my fire arms qualification, guess what I cant be a cop anymore no matter how fit I am or how good I am at my job. I realize there are a lot of technically qulified folks in CAP. But its an all encompassing program. You cant say "well, we meet some of the standards so that ok." We cant say just because we dont like this particular standard its ok to overlook it.

What if I took a student pilot and trained him. He does stalls, slow flight, turns around a piont beautifuly He lands like a pro, but he cant to Soft field landings which is a standard. DO I say wel he does 90% of the standrads right so i wil just pass him anyway? Is that the attitude I should take?


Again, this isnt about weight or height. its about an image. a standard. If we are to be taken seriously we need to enforce our standards and look like we want to be taken seriously or else The Air Force will continue to look at us like a joke

It's attitudes like yours concerning appereance that will continue to a cause the people to 'look at us like a joke.'

You're comparing apples to watermelons here, and it's esepcially funny that you're harping on people for 'not meeting the standards' when your posts are nearly unreadable.

CAP is not a flight school, it's not a police academy, it's not a combat service. Tens of millions of people in this country recieve fire and EMS department coverage from unpaid unvolunteers who show up in tee shirts and jeans.

And also, we have standards that we meet. If someone doesn't meant one set, they wear a different uniform. If they're not wearing that uniform correctly, then they should be corrected. If you show up with a suede jacket over your blues, you should be corrected, despite the fact you're apparently thin and clean shaven.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Slim on March 11, 2009, 01:43:52 AM
Time to wrestle with the pig a little.....

Since the topic of the thread is "The CAP Culture," and has once again denigrated into a uniform, us vs them, hard-core military vs fat n fuzzy discussion, let's remember the people who started our culture, and those who continue that history.

CAP's charter members were people who couldn't serve and wanted to do something to support the war effort.  That's right, the people who were too old or too young.  People who couldn't be drafted (war essential industries), and the 4Fs who couldn't pass the physical.  Our forefathers served honorably during the war years, and performed essential duties like coastal and border patrol, courier flights, SAR, target towing, and started a cadet program to introduce and prepare the youth of that time to military service and aviation.

Who are our members today?  People who couldn't serve for a variety of reasons (age, weight, medical, or just plain old didn't want to put it all on the line for a term of enlistment).  CAP is an organization of people who have a desire to serve their country, in some way.  Whether that's flying SAR missions, ground team, teaching aerospace, or running the cadet program and providing a positive experience for the youth of this country.

Sure, there are a wealth of members who have served, or are presently serving, folks like PHall, Stonewall, Nin, and Flyguy06.  And we  need members like them just as badly as we need the guy who weighs close to 300 pounds, yet shows up every week in his CSU or BBDUs and spends most of the meeting trying to keep on top of the duties associated with the four or five jobs he holds down in the squadron.

I'm one of those people who couldn't serve (medical reasons), so CAP has been it for me (that and a few years in the CGAux).  I enjoy the camaraderie of working with dedicated, like-minded people.  I enjoy seeing the dawn of realization break over some cadet's face when they "Get it."  I enjoy the satisfaction of busting my tail doing something, and seeing it come to a successful conclusion.  I work in a squadron where corporate uniforms (including golf shirts unfortunately) outnumber AF uniforms among senior members.  I put in the time to maintain my uniforms to standard, keep my grooming within the regulations, and set the standards that should be appropriate for both uniforms.  My commander expects the same thing out of everyone in the unit.

Don't tell me that my 25 years of service to CAP, master rating in CP, my ES qualifications (when I had time to maintain them) and participation, or sitting in the corner busting my butt to stay on top of five different staff jobs mean less because I'm that guy who weighs close to 300 pounds.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 11, 2009, 01:55:26 AM
To paraphrase John Winger:

Cut it out! Cut it out! Cut it out! The hell's the matter with you? Stupid! We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more lovable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end?

Nobody cried when Old Yeller got shot? I'm sure.

I cried my eyes out. So we're all dogfaces, we're all very, very different, but there is one thing that we all have in common: we were all stupid enough to join CAP. We're mutants. There's something wrong with us, something very, very wrong with us. Something seriously wrong with us - we're volunteers!
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Climbnsink on March 11, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
We need to be more professional, but what about this theory:
No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection.  No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.


Seriously go search GA message boards for CAP opinions, the negative ones mostly have to do with CAPers dressed up in full bling doing things that they have absolutely no authority to do.   Nothing unprofessional about a golf shirt or not saluting another CAP member, but dress nice and overstep your bounds with the general public and you've done far more damage to CAP than a nonmilitary uniform ever will.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 11, 2009, 02:50:02 AM
Do you have any links?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 11, 2009, 02:55:17 AM
Quote from: Climbnsink on March 11, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
We need to be more professional, but what about this theory:
No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection.  No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.


Seriously go search GA message boards for CAP opinions, the negative ones mostly have to do with CAPers dressed up in full bling doing things that they have absolutely no authority to do.   Nothing unprofessional about a golf shirt or not saluting another CAP member, but dress nice and overstep your bounds with the general public and you've done far more damage to CAP than a nonmilitary uniform ever will.
I'd say there are probably plenty of units that didn't pass inspection that were not combat ready as well.   

Wearing golf shirts doesn't mean that you can't be a jerk just like wearing a uniform doesn't mean that you're a bling hungry jerk. 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: flyguy06 on March 11, 2009, 04:48:00 AM
I just want to go on record to say that I NEVER suggesyed getting rid of our overweight members. What I said was we should two service uniforms.The Air Force one for those that meet the ht and wt and the White shirt/bkue pants one for those that do not meet the ht and wt standard. I think that if you do meet ht and wt you should be required toonly wear the AF uniform and if you do not then you should only be required to waer the other one. Its just a suggestion.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 11, 2009, 04:55:37 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 11, 2009, 04:48:00 AM
I just want to go on record to say that I NEVER suggesyed getting rid of our overweight members. What I said was we should two service uniforms.The Air Force one for those that meet the ht and wt and the White shirt/bkue pants one for those that do not meet the ht and wt standard. I think that if you do meet ht and wt you should be required toonly wear the AF uniform and if you do not then you should only be required to waer the other one. Its just a suggestion.

Where did you say that?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JAFO78 on March 11, 2009, 08:44:39 AM
CAPTalk home of the forum drifters.  :clap: ::)

Start on any topic and sooner or later we talk about something else.  >:D
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: DG on March 11, 2009, 12:38:39 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 11, 2009, 04:48:00 AM
I just want to go on record to say that I NEVER suggesyed getting rid of our overweight members. What I said was we should two service uniforms.The Air Force one for those that meet the ht and wt and the White shirt/bkue pants one for those that do not meet the ht and wt standard. I think that if you do meet ht and wt you should be required toonly wear the AF uniform and if you do not then you should only be required to waer the other one. Its just a suggestion.



Better idea would be for CAP to get rid of the Air Force uniform entirely.

That would eliminate all this acrimony.

And we would all be uniform in uniform.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RRLE on March 11, 2009, 01:05:34 PM
QuoteBut it also says "initiate, or return" which implies the same thing... Otherwise it would say: initiate a hand salute to commissioned officers.

It doesn't. The 'return' portion is there only to cover the bases if a Real Military Officer should salute an Auxie first. The language about 'more senior' has been put into draft AuxMans for the last several revisions of the AuxMan. And every time the USCG has removed it. I know since on the last go-around (leading to the current manual) I was on the final editing team. I found the 'more senior' language and brought it to the USCG's attention - who then promptly removed it.

I'm sure the Aux will try and sneak it in the next edition and hope the USCG doesn't catch it.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: LtCol Hooligan on March 11, 2009, 01:47:22 PM
I think that a CAP (or coast guard aux) member who is wearing higher rank initiating a salute to a rm officer is a bad thing and really confuses things.  The CAP officer should simply not expect a salute from the RM officer and the two should offer a cordial greeting.  Talk about confusing and adding a reason why CAP is notaccepted by some members of the military.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Eclipse on March 11, 2009, 04:53:28 PM
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on March 11, 2009, 01:47:22 PM
I think that a CAP (or coast guard aux) member who is wearing higher rank initiating a salute to a rm officer is a bad thing and really confuses things.  The CAP officer should simply not expect a salute from the RM officer and the two should offer a cordial greeting.  Talk about confusing and adding a reason why CAP is not accepted by some members of the military.

When I'm in uniform on base, I return any salute thrown my way, but I don't initiate a salute to anyone with a lower grade.

Every once in a while I have to have a conversation with a misguided new member walking around with a slot-machine arm saluting slick-sleeve recruits because "they are in the 'real' military" - you're right, it confuses everyone. 

Just follow the same rules and traditions as the rest of the world and everyone is happy.   ::)

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: wuzafuzz on March 11, 2009, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 09, 2009, 03:53:12 PM
So, my question to this body is why arent we like the SDF in terms of military protocal and procedures? I know we all go through Level I and learn what to do, but how many of us actually apply that in our CAP lives?

Here's the deal as I see it:  We have few expectations and little accountability.  

There are plenty of things we are supposed to do as members, but the chances of being taken to task for ignoring those rules are almost nonexistent.  That member won't get a comment on a performance review, they won't lose money, and they probably won't be "fired."  There are few external motivations to perform.  Some people need external motivators to avoid a slide into ignoring the rules they don't care about.

Some people are high performers without external motivations.  Those are the folks that keep the wheels on the typical squadron.

Low expectations affect our image and therefore our acceptance by other organizations.  Until we see some leadership courage to enforce established standards and protect our brand, we will slowly slide downhill.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 11, 2009, 10:12:22 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 09, 2009, 03:53:12 PM
So, my question to this body is why arent we like the SDF in terms of military protocal and procedures?
I think your question assumes that all State Defense Forces are better at following military C&C than CAP and I don't think that is a safe assumption at all.  Yes, they are all actual military forces, but that doesn't automatically mean that all of them take this seriously.  Unfortunately, there are still some SDFs out there that are equivalent to some CAP flying club units that don't take this stuff seriously at all.  Some SDF members do seem to have a "we're only volunteers" mentality. 

I strongly suspect that you get almost as much variation on this issue between different SDFs (each of which have their own rules, regulations, and protocols) and even within the same SDF as you do between different CAP units. 

All that being said, the military culture in SDFs is reviving in many states due to developing new standards, higher expectations, better training, and the getting rid of the "thanks for joining, here's your officer rank insignia" mentality. 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 14, 2009, 03:50:14 PM
I think there must be at least as many posts of me saying this as there are these types of threads on both CadetStuff and CAPTalk.

CAP was formed FOR THE REASON of keeping people who couldn't join the military in the air. Those who were handicapped, overweight, women, medically unable, or whatever were still able to assist their country while in uniform, while doing something that was actually important.

When I see people arguing that we should increase our height and weight standard in order to "protect our image", it makes me think that we really have lost sight of why we were even formed in the first place. We REALLY want to talk tradition? We were here before the USAF was.

It reminds me of a debate I had with a senior member DCC of a squadron once. He wanted to "make the unit more professional" by removing "bad influences" from the cadet program. In his eyes, we were not a juvenile delinquent center, and anyone who actually caused problems should be tossed out for the sake of our "image." I completely disagreed, and told him that having a high standard means NOTHING if we got to that high standard by tossing out everyone who didn't already meet it. It means far more to have a high standard, even if it's lower than what it could be by tossing everyone out, if we were able to take what we have and bring it UP to the standard we want.

This is the same case for CAP, I think. I am certainly not saying that professional wear of the uniform isn't important. I do think that when we have the corporate uniform available that the golf shirt is an unnecessary luxury. But in the same vein, I really wouldn't have a problem if we abandoned the USAF uniform altogether in favor of the corporate uniform. After all, if our goal, as many of the "image" pushers will say, is to end up as a uniform organization, then there is no faster or more efficient way of doing so than simply assigning EVERYONE to the corporate uniform. Now we have our OWN identity, and EVERYONE is in the same uniform, and at the same time, we haven't had to cast out a SINGLE MEMBER of CAP.

Obviously, this will likely never happen, but keep in mind that if we take the logic of "image and uniformity" too far, we will likely lose the USAF uniform long before we try to kick out 2/3rds of our membership for the sake of "professionalism." We were created to give those who couldn't join the military a chance to serve in uniform, and I don't think that ideal is going to be given up more easily than the uniform itself.

Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Grumpy on March 14, 2009, 05:00:22 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 14, 2009, 03:50:14 PM
I think there must be at least as many posts of me saying this as there are these types of threads on both CadetStuff and CAPTalk.

CAP was formed FOR THE REASON of keeping people who couldn't join the military in the air. Those who were handicapped, overweight, women, medically unable, or whatever were still able to assist their country while in uniform, while doing something that was actually important.

When I see people arguing that we should increase our height and weight standard in order to "protect our image", it makes me think that we really have lost sight of why we were even formed in the first place. We REALLY want to talk tradition? We were here before the USAF was.

It reminds me of a debate I had with a senior member DCC of a squadron once. He wanted to "make the unit more professional" by removing "bad influences" from the cadet program. In his eyes, we were not a juvenile delinquent center, and anyone who actually caused problems should be tossed out for the sake of our "image." I completely disagreed, and told him that having a high standard means NOTHING if we got to that high standard by tossing out everyone who didn't already meet it. It means far more to have a high standard, even if it's lower than what it could be by tossing everyone out, if we were able to take what we have and bring it UP to the standard we want.

This is the same case for CAP, I think. I am certainly not saying that professional wear of the uniform isn't important. I do think that when we have the corporate uniform available that the golf shirt is an unnecessary luxury. But in the same vein, I really wouldn't have a problem if we abandoned the USAF uniform altogether in favor of the corporate uniform. After all, if our goal, as many of the "image" pushers will say, is to end up as a uniform organization, then there is no faster or more efficient way of doing so than simply assigning EVERYONE to the corporate uniform. Now we have our OWN identity, and EVERYONE is in the same uniform, and at the same time, we haven't had to cast out a SINGLE MEMBER of CAP.

Obviously, this will likely never happen, but keep in mind that if we take the logic of "image and uniformity" too far, we will likely lose the USAF uniform long before we try to kick out 2/3rds of our membership for the sake of "professionalism." We were created to give those who couldn't join the military a chance to serve in uniform, and I don't think that ideal is going to be given up more easily than the uniform itself.

Be careful what you wish for.

Amen Nathan !
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 14, 2009, 08:10:20 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 14, 2009, 03:50:14 PM
CAP was formed FOR THE REASON of keeping people who couldn't join the military in the air. Those who were handicapped, overweight, women, medically unable, or whatever were still able to assist their country while in uniform, while doing something that was actually important.

Not really. 

We were not formed as the CAOLHF. The Civil Air Organization of the Lame, Halt and Fat.

From AFI 10-2701

A1.1.1. Creation as a Temporary Civilian Auxiliary. CAP was established by order of the Director
of Civilian Defense on 1 December 1941 as an organization under the Office of Civilian Defense
under the command of Army Air Force personnel. The purpose of CAP was to enable the use of general
aviation pilots and aircraft in support of the nation's civilian defense program. It was created
under authority for the use of civilian auxiliaries to meet the state of national emergency declared by
Congress following the outbreak of World War II and was authorized for the period of the national
emergency.


Now, it is true that many of the CAP Founding Fathers didn't meet the guidelines for military service at the time for various reasons but they certainly weren't the leg-dragging porkers you seem to imply.  As a point of interest, young Capt. Son-Of-aveighter, master of the flight levels and many-motors jet pilot, would not have made the cut for pilot training in 1941.  He is neither fat nor drags a leg.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 14, 2009, 10:53:22 PM
Quote from: aveighter on March 14, 2009, 08:10:20 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 14, 2009, 03:50:14 PM
CAP was formed FOR THE REASON of keeping people who couldn't join the military in the air. Those who were handicapped, overweight, women, medically unable, or whatever were still able to assist their country while in uniform, while doing something that was actually important.

Not really. 

We were not formed as the CAOLHF. The Civil Air Organization of the Lame, Halt and Fat.

From AFI 10-2701

A1.1.1. Creation as a Temporary Civilian Auxiliary. CAP was established by order of the Director
of Civilian Defense on 1 December 1941 as an organization under the Office of Civilian Defense
under the command of Army Air Force personnel. The purpose of CAP was to enable the use of general
aviation pilots and aircraft in support of the nation's civilian defense program. It was created
under authority for the use of civilian auxiliaries to meet the state of national emergency declared by
Congress following the outbreak of World War II and was authorized for the period of the national
emergency.


Now, it is true that many of the CAP Founding Fathers didn't meet the guidelines for military service at the time for various reasons but they certainly weren't the leg-dragging porkers you seem to imply.  As a point of interest, young Capt. Son-Of-aveighter, master of the flight levels and many-motors jet pilot, would not have made the cut for pilot training in 1941.  He is neither fat nor drags a leg.

Straw-man argument. I did not imply anything of the sort. I simply said that CAP provided an opportunity for those types of people to serve their country. I did not imply that even the majority of those members were unfit for military service, but considering that we, at the time, were performing military missions, it would follow that if people WANTED to do military missions, they would likely have just joined the military.

Regardless, was there a point you were trying to make in your post, or did you just want to argue nearly irrelevant details?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
Sorry.  Now that I understand you consider historical facts to be nearly irrelevant details and are therefore unable to comprehend the clear and straight forward language of the recorded events of yore, your post makes perfect sense.

There weren't any straw men in the early days either.  Fire hazard.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 15, 2009, 12:48:52 AM
Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
Sorry.  Now that I understand you consider historical facts to be nearly irrelevant details and are therefore unable to comprehend the clear and straight forward language of the recorded events of yore, your post makes perfect sense.

There weren't any straw men in the early days either.  Fire hazard.

It's irrelevant in that it still doesn't change the fact that CAP was founded to allow people unable to serve in the regular forces a chance to serve at home.

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 01:01:21 AM
Quote from: DG on March 11, 2009, 12:38:39 PMBetter idea would be for CAP to get rid of the Air Force uniform entirely.

That would eliminate all this acrimony.

And we would all be uniform in uniform.

How exactly would we be more uniform? Eliminate the blue uniform, and you still have a CSU, blazer, polo/grey, blue BDU's, blue jumpsuit, and now the VSAF button down blue (with a different emblem than polo) with khakis. What's more uniform?

More uniform would be eliminating extras and standardizing insignia for both. Would go a lot further.

The biggest thing I get a kick out of is a fellow squadron member that told me, "We shouldn't be wearing these..." referencing the blue uniform he was wearing. I asked him, "If you don't think we should have it, why are you wearing it?". He hasn't spoken about uniforms to me since.

Blues are a big draw to the cadet crowd. If we allowed cadets to wear it, but eliminated it for seniors, it would create problems. Eliminate it for cadets, and we may as close up shop as far as the cadet programs goes.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 01:18:19 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 15, 2009, 12:48:52 AMIt's irrelevant in that it still doesn't change the fact that CAP was founded to allow people unable to serve in the regular forces a chance to serve at home.

Young Joseph, I hope you are a better student of pre-hospital emergency care than you are of our organizations history.  Where in the world did you get that particular idea?

Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: JayT on March 15, 2009, 02:09:35 AM
Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 01:18:19 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 15, 2009, 12:48:52 AM
It's irrelevant in that it still doesn't change the fact that CAP was founded to allow people unable to serve in the regular forces a chance to serve at home.

Young Joseph, I hope you are a better student of pre-hospital emergency care than you are of our organizations history.  Where in the world did you get that particular idea?

*shrugs* some presentation I got a few years ago. If I'm wrong, please elighten me.

I'm am an exceptional student of pre hospital emergency care by the way. :-p
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 02:36:35 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 15, 2009, 02:09:35 AM*shrugs* some presentation I got a few years ago. If I'm wrong, please elighten me.

The presentaion was incorrect. The primary purpose is exactly as the AFI documents. It was founded for the purpose of allowing civilian pilots to utilize their aircraft during the period. Basically, it was a simple excuse for general aviation to get around fuel rationing.

Now, it was open to everyone, and as a byline it was presented that it did not have the samre requirements as the active duty military to join, and that being a pilot was not required. Yes, those who couldn't join the military were actively recruited, but it was not intentionally designed in that manner.

"Flying Minute Men", if you can get a hold of it, is an excellent historical resource. In general, it's a pretty good read.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: ZigZag911 on March 15, 2009, 05:11:33 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 02:36:35 AM
Basically, it was a simple excuse for general aviation to get around fuel rationing.

Now I wasn't around back then myself, but I suspect Gill Robb Wilson and Fiorello La Guardia would both find this statement surprising and rather cynical.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 05:18:26 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 02:36:35 AM
It was founded for the purpose of allowing civilian pilots to utilize their aircraft during the period. Basically, it was a simple excuse for general aviation to get around fuel rationing.

There is an element of truth to that although the real story is far richer.  It actually starts in the late 1930s.

I would recommend some time with the CAP Historical Foundation.  It is a tremendous resource and there are many photos of the time.  You get to see what some of those folks actually looked like and the equipment they operated.  Helps to gain an appreciation of the proud heritage we carry and may provide motivation to make the current organization a worthy heir.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Major Carrales on March 15, 2009, 05:18:59 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 15, 2009, 05:11:33 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 02:36:35 AM
Basically, it was a simple excuse for general aviation to get around fuel rationing.

Now I wasn't around back then myself, but I suspect Gill Robb Wilson and Fiorello La Guardia would both find this statement surprising and rather cynical.

What everyone of modern presepective fails to see is that the build up to WWII was a time were everyone "did their part."  It was total war.  People joined Civil Defense because they had a sense of purpose.

That sense is, today, seen as "corney" or "hokey."  I believe that kind of idealism is met today with "Oh...please" and "Grow up."

I like to think I have that sense of purpose and that is why I joined CAP.  Because I believe in it.

Frankly, the original CAP Officers and enlisted men (followed by the Cadets later in the war) did not do it because they were "unfit" or any reason the modern mind might arrive at by modern reason...but rather, they did it because it had to be done.

The "cynical" nature of our times works against volunteerism.  Sad really...very sad. 

As an aside, it would seem that the sort of people that would have been dismissed as "crackpots" and "nuts" in the 1940s for their bizzare approaches are given creedence and University professorships in our times.  Thus, our children see "pimps" and "drug dealers" as heros, and true heroes as "nerds" and "dorks."  Thus, volunteerism is for "geeks" and going to prison "builds" character.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: ZigZag911 on March 15, 2009, 05:23:07 AM
Realistically speaking, a fair percentage of CAP personnel were too young, too old, or medically unfit for military service -- but, as Sparky says, still sought to serve their country.

Might be good to remember that this applies equally today.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Major Carrales on March 15, 2009, 05:28:54 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 15, 2009, 05:23:07 AM
Realistically speaking, a fair percentage of CAP personnel were too young, too old, or medically unfit for military service -- but, as Sparky says, still sought to serve their country.

Might be good to remember that this applies equally today.

Well said.  The intent of 1940s CAP was service in a time of Great Crisis.  Those that served in CAP, be they who they were, did so because they wanted to do the right thing for the times.  That an old person, woman, medically unfit or other reasons (maybe even, dare I say it, including elements of race) did not matter as much as defening the coasts, doing their part and training new pilots via the earliest of Cadet Programs.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 15, 2009, 05:50:11 AM
Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
Sorry.  Now that I understand you consider historical facts to be nearly irrelevant details and are therefore unable to comprehend the clear and straight forward language of the recorded events of yore, your post makes perfect sense.

Give me break. The accuracy of the details you provide are irrelevant to the point I was making. Completely irrelevant. They don't change my argument, and serve only to pull this further off course than it is. It seems like you were debating just to debate.

So, if you have a point to make against my initial assertion, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I fail to see how your assertion in any way relates to the overall message my post conveys (since you did point out the importance in the overall message of YOUR point).
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 09:44:33 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 15, 2009, 05:11:33 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 15, 2009, 02:36:35 AM
Basically, it was a simple excuse for general aviation to get around fuel rationing.


Now I wasn't around back then myself, but I suspect Gill Robb Wilson and Fiorello La Guardia would both find this statement surprising and rather cynical.

I would hope that it wouldn't be viewed with such negativity. It wasn't intended as a cynical statement. Most of General Aviation was grounded for that reason. That they found a justifiable reason to fly was rather inventive, and worked. Patriotism was a big part of it too.

As to today's culture, patriotism is looked on as "quaint" and outdated. Most people are "in it for themselves" in today's culture. (A fact which could be looked at as cynicism, but fairly accurate for most people today).
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: BillB on March 15, 2009, 11:44:46 AM
I notice through this thread, that CAP Historians have not jumped in with historical facts. An exception may be Sparky who is very well informed on CAP history. The history that defined todays CAP Culture. There are several threads in CAPTalk on subjects concerning historical items such as the Cadet COP ribbon as an example. One mentioned only 600 C/COP were awarded. That's not 100% true on that cadets that previously earned the red-white and blue training ribbons in 1954 were authorized to wear the C/COP ribbon, so you could add another thousand or so to that figure.
Another thread compares the cadet program of the 40's and 50's to the existing program comparing the CP with three clasps to the Spaatz. Show a Spaatz cadet the material in CAP Manual 1, volumes and and two to a Spaatz cadet and he/she will admit the old program was harder in most, but not all areas.
But the theme of this post is the average CAP member has little or no concept of the history of CAP, it's early membership and reasons for existing during World War II and the immediate post-war period.  And this includes the current Corporate Officers.Perhaps a history needs to be included in the course for Wing/Region Commanders, commonly called the "Charm School".
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Grumpy on March 15, 2009, 03:13:36 PM
I was a cadet from 1959 to 1963 and we were still wearing the red, white and blue ribbons.  The encampment ribbon was different too.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: BillB on March 15, 2009, 11:44:46 AM
But the theme of this post is the average CAP member has little or no concept of the history of CAP, it's early membership and reasons for existing during World War II and the immediate post-war period. 

An excellent observation.

Quote from: Nathan on March 15, 2009, 05:50:11 AM
Give me break. The accuracy of the details you provide are irrelevant to the point I was making. Completely irrelevant. They don't change my argument, and serve only to pull this further off course than it is. It seems like you were debating just to debate.

So, if you have a point to make against my initial assertion, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I fail to see how your assertion in any way relates to the overall message my post conveys (since you did point out the importance in the overall message of YOUR point).

Lets see.... A) Your initial point was factually incorrect.    B) You consider the facts irrelevant to your argument and C) Fail to see how it all fits together anyway.

Yes, yes! I understand.  Makes perfect sense!  Consider yourself broke.

I am forwarding your name to the US Treasury for immediate consideration.  Mr. Tim needs the help and that sort of logic will be a stunning match in sorting out the current conundrum!
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 15, 2009, 04:17:35 PM
I really didn't want to have to explain myself in detail. I was hoping you could pick it up by actually reading the posts. But what the hey.

Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 03:22:20 PM
Lets see.... A) Your initial point was factually incorrect.

But you assumed my point is that we created an organization exclusively to cater to those who were unfit for military service. That is NOT what I said. I said that the program was created so that those who were not in the military (civilians, in your citation) could still serve their country. I did NOT imply that this meant the program was consisted entirely of "leg-dragging porkers." I'm sure there were many people fit for military service in the program, as there are now. But keep in mind that during the war, it was not too hard for those who WERE able to join the military to serve their country IN the military. Since CAP was doing combat missions anyway, anyone who joined either organization had to be ready to face enemy fire anyway. Those who could not could join the military could join CAP and do a similar mission instead.

So my point was factually incorrect only as you chose to interpret it, and you interpreted it incorrectly. As I said, a straw man argument.

Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 03:22:20 PMB) You consider the facts irrelevant to your argument

In the same vein as above, the argument you chose to extract from my post is not the same argument I was making, and it was based entirely off of your either accidental or intentional misinterpretation of what I wrote. So yes, the facts that you present are completely irrelevant to my argument.

It's like if I were to make the argument that blue is a primary color, and you decide to pull something from that argument that in an obscure world can be interpreted as me saying yellow is NOT a primary color. And then you decide to argue with me as to whether or not yellow is a primary color, when I was originally talking about blue. Whatever you decide to say about yellow is completely irrelevant to what I was saying about blue.

Quote from: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 03:22:20 PMC) Fail to see how it all fits together anyway.

Indeed. Perhaps you can better strengthen the connection between yellow and blue for me. I AM colorblind, after all.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: RiverAux on March 15, 2009, 05:52:39 PM
I happen to have access to a WWII era photograph of the wing leadership of my Wing and of many 20 odd people who you can see well, only maybe one or two of them was overweight.  None had beards.  Most looked to be in their 30s and 40s and maybe a few in their 50s.   If you've ever looked at the online photos of the Bar Harbor CAP patrol base, most of the people in the photos are actually pretty thin (with a few exceptions) and again most look like they're in the 30s and 40s. 

Just anecdotal evidence.  I'm not aware of any actual stats on this and we'll probably never have them. 

So, defeintely older than what was seen in the military (though my grandfather was drafted when he was in his 30s), but not nearly as old as we see in CAP today.  When you think about it, this isn't too surprising.  During WWII, the "old" pilots probably wouldn't be older than the 40s since the plane hadn't really been around that long.  Today, we have people that learned to fly in their 20s and are now in the 60s,70s,80s and are in CAP.

The one thing that seems to have stayed constant is the inability to get a formation of seniors with everyone in the same uniform.  Several photos of the Bar Harbor base show formations with at least 5 different uniform combinations being worn. 

 
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 15, 2009, 09:21:35 PM
So you initially said;

"CAP was formed FOR THE REASON of keeping people who couldn't join the military in the air. Those who were handicapped, overweight, women, medically unable, or whatever were still able to assist their country while in uniform, while doing something that was actually important."

Now I get it!  When you specifically emphasized that CAP was formed FOR THE REASON blah blah, specifically identifying the sub-types of non-military joiners, you REALLY meant that CAP was NOT formed for the aforementioned reasons.

You're going to fit right in up there in DC!  Tell the truth now, are you a political speech writer in real life?
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 15, 2009, 11:38:51 PM
You aren't making the connection that those who wanted to fight who COULD join the military generally joined the military, so "civilian" in your case would imply "those who wanted to fight but could NOT join the military." Let's look at the big picture. War has a tendency of separating those two groups out. It shouldn't take even a smart person to see that the lack of one leaves a majority of the other.

And that wasn't even my point. It's just the point you decided to nitpick about.

Regardless, I'm done arguing this with you. It's not lending further to any debate but your own. If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, feel free to do so on someone else's time.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Short Field on March 16, 2009, 02:13:21 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 15, 2009, 05:52:39 PM
20 odd people who you can see well, only maybe one or two of them was overweight.  None had beards.  Most looked to be in their 30s and 40s and maybe a few in their 50s.    

Society has changed.  Our population is older, obesity is endemic, and grooming standards are set by individuals, not society.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: aveighter on March 16, 2009, 03:40:36 AM
Quote from: Nathan on March 15, 2009, 11:38:51 PM
Regardless, I'm done arguing this with you.

Surrender accepted.  Now go learn from whence this organization came.  It will make you proud and motivated.  It is a glorious story. 

It is said the WWII generation was the greatest generation and this is arguably true.   The men who flew out to sea in small airplanes to seek out and confront the enemy did so with the full knowledge of magnitude and risk of their missions.  They could have stayed home, they could have stayed safe and far from the fight.  Many were veterans and had done their time owing nothing more.  Many were for other reasons considered "unqualified" for military service.  Too old, too young, flat feet or inadequate vision.  They had no fear of the draft, they wouldn't be taken to a conflict not of their choosing in a place they never heard of.  If the WWII generation was great, these people were the greatest of them all.

But, they went anyway.  They fought for the privilege of service and they did tremendous things.  And more than a few never came back.  Go to the historical site and look at their photographs.  Those, my friend, are the faces of heros.  Common men with uncommon courage doing uncommon things.

Though I have worn a uniform of the United States (mostly green, occasionally blue and white) I am proud to put on the blue suit (even with the gawdawful grey epaulets) because I think of those fellows as I put it on.  I think of those that have gone before me in service and I try to honor them by my appearance, my bearing and by my small efforts for this organization and the nation.  I am proud to be a very small part of something so much larger than myself.

That is CAP culture.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Nathan on March 16, 2009, 03:59:52 AM
Quote from: aveighter on March 16, 2009, 03:40:36 AM
Surrender accepted.

How old are you again? ::)
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Major Carrales on March 16, 2009, 04:01:47 AM
Quote from: Nathan on March 16, 2009, 03:59:52 AM
Quote from: aveighter on March 16, 2009, 03:40:36 AM
Surrender accepted.

How old are you again? ::)

Nathan, careful...
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: MajFitzpatrick on March 16, 2009, 10:03:17 AM
When everyone signed up on that sheet called senior membership, did anyone actually read what it says?

I understand membership in the Civil Air Patrol is a privilege, not a right, and that membership is on a year-to-year basis
subject to recurring renewal by CAP. I further understand failure to meet membership eligibility criteria will result in
automatic termination at any time.
I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values,
Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws.
I understand only the Civil Air Patrol corporate officers are authorized to obligate funds, equipment, or services.
I understand the Civil Air Patrol is not liable for loss or damage to my personal property when operated for or by the Civil
Air Patrol. I further understand that safety is critical for the protection of all members and protection of CAP resources. I
will at all times follow safe practices and take an active role in safety for myself and others.
I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol.
I certify that all information on this application is presently correct and any false statement may be cause to deny
membership. I understand I am obligated to notify the Civil Air Patrol if there are any changes pertaining to the
information on the front of this form and further understand that failure to report such changes may be grounds for
membership termination.
I fully understand that this Oath of Membership is an integral part of this application for senior membership in the Civil Air
Patrol and that my signature on the form constitutes evidence of that understanding and agreement to comply with all
contents of this Oath of Membership.

Congrats you signed an oath of membership. So Mr Civilian attitudes out there, that don't care about the regs, come see me, your nice DCS, and we can start your 2B paperwork.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: Short Field on March 16, 2009, 03:38:12 PM
^^^ ????
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: BuckeyeDEJ on March 17, 2009, 06:21:33 AM
CAP culture -- do they make penicillin for that?

CAP is an organization of contradictions, and its culture is one of folk tradition and inconsistent adherence to rules and regulations.

The contradictions? Sure, we can think of some, but let's start with the biggest one: We're the Air Force's auxiliary, but we're a civilian nonprofit corporation, and we can play either side of the fence, whether out of convenience or necessity. Conundrums exist, and sometimes don't work themselves out easily.

The folk traditions? Again, you'll think of some, but how about the weird things cadets learn in drill and ceremonies, for starters? Cadets who go on to the military must unlearn/relearn because someone saw something in a war movie and took that to be the way it's done (sheez, how many times have I seen that?). And do we really want to "go there" and talk about all the gray-headed senior members slurping down coffee, trading war stories and giving irrelevant information when asked for guidance? (Yip, cadets notice, and they laugh about it behind seniors' backs -- I know. I'm a former diamonds-wearer. "Leadership by example" needs to be a BIG part of Level I.)

Inconsistency in adhering to rules? It's all over this thread and other CAPTalk discussions. One unit does certain things one way, while another's more lax. And there's little accountability for members' routine actions -- no officer fitness reports, nothing. Cascading goals might help, but, oh, that's right, someone will say "this is a volunteer organization" and out the window that goes. Heck, even at the wing level, one wing may impose loads of extra paperwork, while another doesn't. At least one has its own e-services site, even.

The penicillin? If it exists, it's more direct Air Force control and governance. The new membership oath helps, but it's just a first step. Standardization is the answer, for veracity and consistency, but that only comes top-down.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: FW on March 17, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
"The penicillin? If it exists, it's more direct Air Force control and governance. The new membership oath helps, but it's just a first step. Standardization is the answer, for veracity and consistency, but that only comes top-down."

I'm not going to disagree with this opinion however, since 2001, we've had "more direct AF control" with the Board of Governors.  There are 4 direct appointments of the SECAF.  One member is the current 1st AF/CC.  More direct control would only be possible with more money.  Something the AF doesn't have and, hasn't had for years (AF CAP employees left the building well over 10 years ago.)  

Standardization has always been the answer however, you must define "the top".
Few at the national level do anything other than help make policy.  They set standards.  At region level, few do anything other than monitor the standards with their wing counterparts.  At wing, everyone is busy planning training events, encampments, getting reports in or filling ADY as squadron/group commanders or staff.  

I'll let you in on a little secret; the standards are in place....

You want veracity and consistency; I would simply suggest following whats already in print, putting in action what everyone already knows and, lighten up.

Many members are forgetting a major part of CAP membership.  That is to enjoy it.
Make new friends, have new experiences and give something of value back to others.  Everything else, IMHO, is secondary.
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: BuckeyeDEJ on March 17, 2009, 06:39:42 PM
FW, yes, we have a board of governors now that we didn't have back when the Air Force populated National Headquarters. But it's not the same. This group acts more like a college's board of visitors than a day-to-day, policy-making and policy-enforcing group.

Civilian employees of National Headquarters make policy. Sometimes, they don't know the military way of doing things, or how things work in CAP, and you can't fault them for it.

Heck, those civilian employees are even asked to clarify regulations, which circumvents the chain of command and may undermine the ability to refine and hone those regulations.

A quarter-century ago, CAP's executive director was dual-hatted as the commander of CAP-USAF. On a day-to-day working level, the top of CAP was run differently. I'd dare say that the crises of integrity we saw at the top a few years ago would have been reined in sooner with day-to-day meddling from the mothership. Now, the National Board and the NEC, which has been vulnerable to cronyism, have to police the organization and each other... which leads to a legal-officer corps that answers outside the chain of command, among other things.

Seems there's a better way without dragging Mother Air Force back into the mix, but I'm not sure what it is. It's easier to sit back and crow on an Internet forum than think it through. But that's what the rest of you are here for!  ;D
Title: Re: The CAP Culture
Post by: FW on March 17, 2009, 07:42:17 PM
"Heck, those civilian employees are even asked to clarify regulations, which circumvents the chain of command and may undermine the ability to refine and hone those regulations".

That is one of the truest statements I've seen.   But, NHQ employees do not make policy, they carry it out.  Believe it or not, it's the National Board which has that pleasure.  HQ employees are there to assist the membership with information and, as they are "service providers", aim to please.   Do not confuse assistance from the HQ employees with your (members) obligations and responsibilities to the volunteer leadership.  That "confusion" can get us in trouble.  I deal with it on an almost daily  basis.

25 years ago, the National board was  totally controlled by the region commanders.  If a wing commander had a differing opinion, they were routinely "relieved".   There were no protections, no tenure, no search committees. Talk about cronyism...
 
We may like to look back at the "good old days" however, they weren't so good.  
IMHO, things are more professional today than at any time in the past 30 years.  
But, of course, I may be a little close for objective analysis :).  

Forget about closer "oversight" from the Air Force.  Ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.  Money is too short, personell too involved in other matters and, in spite of what most members think, we're doing pretty well with what we have.   ;D