OBC ends Polo Debate

Started by Майор Хаткевич, October 04, 2012, 02:21:32 AM

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Майор Хаткевич

One of the questions I just ran into:

The golf shirt combination:

A)  is an equivalent to the service dress uniform.
  B)  can be worn when flying in CAP aircraft.
  C)  is worn with grade.
  D)  is a salutable uniform.
Only one answer is correct.

abdsp51


Eclipse

Actually there are three correct answers there.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

Eclipse-

What are they? I only see two.

B and D

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

A is correct according to regulations, despite the fact that everyone's mirror disagrees.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

No, not every one disagrees with A. With what they disagree is when members state that it is a required uniform.

Required uniforms are either the Blue or the Grey/White.

Polo is another uniform but not equivalent to Blues or Greys/White.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Майор Хаткевич

It is NOT equivalent to SERVICE Dress
It does NOT require a Salute.

Obviously Grade is not worn.

ßτε

It can be considered equivalent to the service uniform, not the service dress uniform.

BuckeyeDEJ

You can wear it while flying, so B.

Grade is not worn on the LSU. It's too casual to be equivalent to service dress ("Class A"). And since grade isn't worn, it's not salutable.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Eclipse

39-1 indicates it >is< equivalent to service dress. I also didn't say what everyone disagrees with,
I said the mirror disagrees.  The OBC is, presumably, a test based on the actual regulations.
We just had this argument where people cited that 39-1 considers the golf shirt equivalent to service dress.

It doesn't say requires a salute, it says "salutable", which it is, and 151 agrees.  You do not need to be wearing grade to get saluted.

"That Others May Zoom"

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: Eclipse on October 04, 2012, 04:23:09 AM
39-1 indicates it >is< equivalent to service dress. I also didn't say what everyone disagrees with,
I said the mirror disagrees.  The OBC is, presumably, a test based on the actual regulations.
We just had this argument where people cited that 39-1 considers the golf shirt equivalent to service dress.

It doesn't say requires a salute, it says "salutable", which it is, and 151 agrees.  You do not need to be wearing grade to get saluted.

No, but if you're not recognized by someone, you can't expect them to know you're a captain and salute accordingly. Salutes can't be rendered in the LSU if the subordinate doesn't recognize the LSU wearer as a superior. Heck, you can say the same thing for recognizing a superior when the superior is in civvies. Salutes are automatic in the Air Force and white-and-gray uniforms, obviously....

If only one response is true, I'd go with the flight answer. That much, we definitely know -- you can wear it to fly. The service dress uniform is the military equivalent of the business suit; you wouldn't wear a polo shirt to a funeral, hence the notion the LSU isn't equal to service dress.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

tsrup

Quote from: Eclipse on October 04, 2012, 04:23:09 AM
39-1 indicates it >is< equivalent to service dress. I also didn't say what everyone disagrees with,
I said the mirror disagrees.  The OBC is, presumably, a test based on the actual regulations.
We just had this argument where people cited that 39-1 considers the golf shirt equivalent to service dress.

It doesn't say requires a salute, it says "salutable", which it is, and 151 agrees.  You do not need to be wearing grade to get saluted.

Wrong Eclipse.

Here's the table you are citing

Quote from:  CAPM 39-1 Table 4-8
Table 4-8.  CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform



    CAP Distinctive Uniform                                      USAF-Style Uniform Equal
1 Utility Uniform/Field Uniform                              Battle Dress Uniform (BDU)
2 Blazer Uniform                                                   Service Dress Uniform
3 Blazer Semiformal Uniform (without                    Mess Dress (Senior Members),  Semiformal (Cadets) or Civilian Formal Wear
   nameplate) Appropriate civilian attire is
   recommended for females.
4 Aviator Shirt with Epaulets                                  AF-style light blue shirt
5 Knit Shirts                                                                AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified)
6 Blue Flight Suit                                                   Green Flight Suit
7 Blue Flight Jacket                                                Green Flight Jacket



As you can see it has been equated to the Light-blue shirt which is the service uniform, not the service dress.

Still wrong, I would have put it in the utility category, as that seems to me to be it's only function.
Paramedic
hang-around.

Brad

It does require a salute if the saluting (junior) party is in uniform. The burden is on them to salute, not on the member wearing the golf shirt. Just because they're not in uniform doesn't mean that they are no longer your Squadron Commander. You salute the rank they have earned, not the uniform or the lack thereof. I'm wanting to say this concept is mentioned somewhere in CAP publications, but I can't seem to find it off hand. I do know it is taught in the real military though. You salute a senior officer upon recognition. That is why you'll see gate sentries salute an officer in civvies after ID recognition.
Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff, Communications
Mid-Atlantic Region
K4RMN

Private Investigator

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 04, 2012, 03:51:55 AM
You can wear it while flying, so B.


Yes and no. If you are flying as part of the CAP "flying club" yes. If you are on an actual mission, no. 

BillB

Where does it say you can't wear the polo flying on missions?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

jeders

Quote from: Private Investigator on October 04, 2012, 07:57:34 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 04, 2012, 03:51:55 AM
You can wear it while flying, so B.


Yes and no. If you are flying as part of the CAP "flying club" yes. If you are on an actual mission, no.

Oh really you say. So the fact that it is required to wear on certain actual missions means nothing I guess.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

EMT-83

Quote from: Private Investigator on October 04, 2012, 07:57:34 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 04, 2012, 03:51:55 AM
You can wear it while flying, so B.


Yes and no. If you are flying as part of the CAP "flying club" yes. If you are on an actual mission, no.

Then I suppose I've got a couple of ribbons to hand back.

Eclipse

Quote from: tsrup on October 04, 2012, 06:14:10 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 04, 2012, 04:23:09 AM
39-1 indicates it >is< equivalent to service dress. I also didn't say what everyone disagrees with,
I said the mirror disagrees.  The OBC is, presumably, a test based on the actual regulations.
We just had this argument where people cited that 39-1 considers the golf shirt equivalent to service dress.

It doesn't say requires a salute, it says "salutable", which it is, and 151 agrees.  You do not need to be wearing grade to get saluted.

Wrong Eclipse.

Here's the table you are citing

Quote from:  CAPM 39-1 Table 4-8
Table 4-8.  CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform



    CAP Distinctive Uniform                                      USAF-Style Uniform Equal
1 Utility Uniform/Field Uniform                              Battle Dress Uniform (BDU)
2 Blazer Uniform                                                   Service Dress Uniform
3 Blazer Semiformal Uniform (without                    Mess Dress (Senior Members),  Semiformal (Cadets) or Civilian Formal Wear
   nameplate) Appropriate civilian attire is
   recommended for females.
4 Aviator Shirt with Epaulets                                  AF-style light blue shirt
5 Knit Shirts                                                                AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified)
6 Blue Flight Suit                                                   Green Flight Suit
7 Blue Flight Jacket                                                Green Flight Jacket



As you can see it has been equated to the Light-blue shirt which is the service uniform, not the service dress.

Still wrong, I would have put it in the utility category, as that seems to me to be it's only function.

In most people's minds' service uniform and service dress are one in the same.  Clearly reality disagrees that a golf hirt is in any way equivalent to what is, in either case, a dress uniform, but whatever. The blazer isn't remotely equivalent to service dress either.

That still leaves at least two correct answers.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Brad on October 04, 2012, 06:45:48 AM
It does require a salute if the saluting (junior) party is in uniform. The burden is on them to salute, not on the member wearing the golf shirt. Just because they're not in uniform doesn't mean that they are no longer your Squadron Commander. You salute the rank they have earned, not the uniform or the lack thereof. I'm wanting to say this concept is mentioned somewhere in CAP publications, but I can't seem to find it off hand. I do know it is taught in the real military though. You salute a senior officer upon recognition. That is why you'll see gate sentries salute an officer in civvies after ID recognition.
Since the polo does not carry rank.......a salute is not required.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Al Sayre

While they don't have grade insignia, they frequently have it spelled out over the pocket.  Something like LtCol Joe Blow just below the pilot wings...  So based on the fact that you would recognize the rank if you can read, it would be a salutable uniform, so the correct answer would be B,C, or D...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787