During this morning's opening session of the Air Force Association's Air, Space and Cyber Conference, Civil Air Patrol was awarded the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award for the 2012-2016 period. The award was presented by the Secretary of the Air Force - Deborah Lee James. On behalf of the organization, Maj Gen Joseph Vazquez - National Commander - also presented artist Rick Broome's outstanding painting, "Total Force Partners" to the USAF - which will be displayed in the Pentagon. Following the presentations, a 75th Anniversary Tribute produced by Scott Matthews was shown. Scott is a former Spaatz cadet in CAP and a Staff Sgt in the TN ANG.
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?cap_honored_with_air_force_organizational_excellence_award&show=news&newsID=22506
CONGRATS CAP!
:clap:
Well Eclipse I'll take that apology now.
Something you said could never happen just did. ;)
?
Uniform thread in 321......_
Yeah, it was awarded to HQ CAP-USAF. Which is an Air Force organization.
East Hinderlands Cadet Squadron is a CAP organization which means they are not eligible to wear the ribbon because it was not awarded to them.
If it was awarded to HQ CAP.USAF,then they mistakenly placed the streamer on the CAP flag and not the.CAP.USAF. flag.. I will calland let them know. ASAP!
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 06:36:41 PM
Yeah, it was awarded to HQ CAP-USAF. Which is an Air Force organization.
East Hinderlands Cadet Squadron is a CAP organization which means they are not eligible to wear the ribbon because it was not awarded to them.
HQ CAP-USAF?
QuoteSecretary of the Air Force Deborah James affixes a streamer (seen below) signifying CAP's Air Force Organizational Excellence Award to the organization's flag, held before her by Maj. Gen. Joe Vazquez, CAP national commander. The Maryland Wing cadet who presented the flag on-stage stands by. Civil Air Patrol received one of the U.S. Air Force's top honors today at the Air Force Association's annual conference. Deborah James, secretary of the Air Force, and Gen. David L. Goldfein, Air Force chief of staff, presented Maj. Gen. Joe Vazquez, CAP national commander, with the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award during this morning's session at the AFA's Air, Space & Cyber Conference at the Gaylord National Resort & Convention Center in National Harbor, Maryland. James also affixed the CAP flag presented by cadets on the stage with a red, white and blue streamer signifying the honor for the period Oct. 1-2012-Aug. 31, 2016.
Congratulations to Civil Air Patrol. :clap:
Someone grabbed the wrong flag.
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 06:36:41 PM
Yeah, it was awarded to HQ CAP-USAF. Which is an Air Force organization.
East Hinderlands Cadet Squadron is a CAP organization which means they are not eligible to wear the ribbon because it was not awarded to them.
Phil...I have it on good authority that it was for us -- the volunteers --- CAP and not CAP-USAF :)
Quote from: SMWOG on September 20, 2016, 06:53:17 PM
Someone grabbed the wrong flag.
And the last time I looked, the National Commander of CAP was Maj Gen Vazquez, not Col T :)
And in reference to another thread...sure glad he decided to wear the uniform and not that blue polo shirt >:D ;D ;)
I just confirmed it was awarded to CAP.
Quote from: SMWOG on September 20, 2016, 06:56:26 PM
I just confirmed it was awarded to CAP.
so someone didn't grab the wrong flag.
Yes....This is a great accomplishment!.
Quote from: Pylon on September 20, 2016, 06:53:08 PM
Congratulations to Civil Air Patrol. :clap:
And as Brig Gen Larry Myrick (National Vice-Commander) is fond of saying in his presentations on the Civil Air Patrol, "Yay us!!!"
This is akin to the Commandant of the Coast Guard awarding the Coast Guard Unit Commendation to the Coast Guard Auxiliary on its 60th, 70th and 75th anniversaries. Congratulations CAP and BRAVO ZULU!
It's a good thing! Let's hope for more to come...
Interesting that they have awarded an Air Force award to a non-Air Force entity. ???
Interesting because they violated the Air Force's own regulations to do it! ::)
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
This begs the question: Can CAP members who cannot wear the AF service uniforms wear this award on the aviator shirt since it was awarded for actions performed as CAP members, not military members.
PHall,
I wonder if the Air Force is on the right side of their regulation based on the criteria for the award, which according to http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award (http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award), states:
QuoteBackground
The secretary of the Air Force authorized this award on Aug. 26, 1969. The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of U.S. Air Force organizations or activities.
Criteria
It is awarded to Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations. They are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc.
One could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues. I'm curious, as I looked at page 112 of the regulation you mention and can't see any reason we would not be eligible, or that the Air Force violated their own regulation, as I'm sure they spent some time considering this before deciding to issue this award to us.
Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
This begs the question: Can CAP members who cannot wear the AF service uniforms wear this award on the aviator shirt since it was awarded for actions performed as CAP members, not military members.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and say NHQ would make an exception for this and deem it allowable for wear on the white aviator, since it is recognizing CAP service.
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:04:42 PM
PHall,
I wonder if the Air Force is on the right side of their regulation based on the criteria for the award, which according to http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award (http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award), states:
QuoteBackground
The secretary of the Air Force authorized this award on Aug. 26, 1969. The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of U.S. Air Force organizations or activities.
Criteria
It is awarded to Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations. They are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc.
One could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues. I'm curious, as I looked at page 112 of the regulation you mention and can't see any reason we would not be eligible, or that the Air Force violated their own regulation, as I'm sure they spent some time considering this before deciding to issue this award to us.
Simple, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force organization. And we were probably "awarded" this just so the AF can say they value their "Civilian" Auxiliary.
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:04:42 PM
PHall,
I wonder if the Air Force is on the right side of their regulation based on the criteria for the award, which according to http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award (http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award), states:
QuoteBackground
The secretary of the Air Force authorized this award on Aug. 26, 1969. The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of U.S. Air Force organizations or activities.
Criteria
It is awarded to Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations. They are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc.
One could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues. I'm curious, as I looked at page 112 of the regulation you mention and can't see any reason we would not be eligible, or that the Air Force violated their own regulation, as I'm sure they spent some time considering this before deciding to issue this award to us.
I'd say this award is a further cementation of the fact that #totalforce isn't just a hashtag.
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:07:19 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
This begs the question: Can CAP members who cannot wear the AF service uniforms wear this award on the aviator shirt since it was awarded for actions performed as CAP members, not military members.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and say NHQ would make an exception for this and deem it allowable for wear on the white aviator, since it is recognizing CAP service.
That is a rather thin limb.
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:04:42 PM
PHall,
I wonder if the Air Force is on the right side of their regulation based on the criteria for the award, which according to http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award (http://www.afpc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421950/air-force-organizational-excellence-award), states:
QuoteBackground
The secretary of the Air Force authorized this award on Aug. 26, 1969. The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of U.S. Air Force organizations or activities.
Criteria
It is awarded to Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations. They are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc.
One could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues. I'm curious, as I looked at page 112 of the regulation you mention and can't see any reason we would not be eligible, or that the Air Force violated their own regulation, as I'm sure they spent some time considering this before deciding to issue this award to us.
Simple, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force organization. And we were probably "awarded" this just so the AF can say they value their "Civilian" Auxiliary.
Pretty sure lots of JAG types already hashed this out.
Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
This begs the question: Can CAP members who cannot wear the AF service uniforms wear this award on the aviator shirt since it was awarded for actions performed as CAP members, not military members.
I very doubt the USAF is actually going to award the ribbon to all CAP members. I have a feeling this is more of an "honorary" AFOEA. If the USAF says CAP can wear the ribbon, I am sure they will also set the guidelines (i.e. USAF-style vs Corporate) at that time. Until that time comes, just sit right back and hear a tale.
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
You have said a few times that they violated the reg. How?
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
As the SECAF created it, wouldn't it stand to reason that the SECAF can waiver any or all provisions of said regulation. It has been hashed out many times, and not to everyone's agreement, that a Commander can, and does violate regs up to what their Commanders will allow. Who is going to punish the SECAF? The SECDEF? POTUS? Really, who is going to care enough to spend all the time and resources to punish the SECAF over this? There are a lot bigger issues to deal with.
It's a nice thank you, and I for one appreciate it.
Quote from: THRAWN on September 20, 2016, 10:20:58 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
You have said a few times that they violated the reg. How?
AFI 36-2803, Para 4.1.4. Air Force unit awards are primarily awarded to
Air Force units and organizations. Sister Service units are not normally recommended for or selected to share in an Air Force peacetime unit award, as they are eligible for their own service unit awards.
Last time I looked, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force Unit or Organization.
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:29:39 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on September 20, 2016, 10:20:58 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
You have said a few times that they violated the reg. How?
AFI 36-2803, Para 4.1.4. Air Force unit awards are primarily awarded to Air Force units and organizations. Sister Service units are not normally recommended for or selected to share in an Air Force peacetime unit award, as they are eligible for their own service unit awards.
Looks like SECAF and the Air Staff disagree. You should call LTG Burne and give your legal interp.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 20, 2016, 10:26:29 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 20, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Ma Blue posted this on Facebook earlier today. It's a pretty powerful summation of just four years of work.
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol distinguished itself by exceptionally meritorious service from 1 October 2012 to 31 August 2016. During this period, Civil Air Patrol emerged as a true total force partner flying 36,367 operational sorties as the Air Force Auxiliary.
They were the cornerstone of Air Force rescue operations executing 2,943 search and rescue missions for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center flying 5,040 hours and saving 272 lives. Civil Air Patrol was an integral part of our homeland defense flying 1,950 air defense sorties providing target support for intercept aircraft. In response to multiple disasters, they valiantly aided relief efforts flying 3,334 hours in support of federal and state disaster response authorities. This included operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy involving an amazing twenty-one wings using seventy-three aircraft flying 696 sorties and 1,380 hours capturing 158,000 images used by emergency responders while ground crews manned shelters and delivered life-saving supplies. When historic flooding threatened South Carolina, Civil Air Patrol volunteers flew 180 search and rescue and imagery sorties capturing 4,480 images.
They supported 959 Air Force and joint exercises including critical training missions simulating unmanned aircraft systems by using sensor modified aircraft to prepare Air Force, Army, and Navy joint terminal attack controllers for their worldwide combat missions. Additionally, aircrews flew 29,395 hours helping law enforcement agencies seize 2.9 billion dollars in illegal drugs and currency leading to 1,530 arrests.
In the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent. Civil Air Patrol members provided an incredible 165 million dollars annually in volunteer service hours.
They can justify it on Facebook all they want, but, they violated their own regulation (AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Military Awards and Decoration Program ) to do it.
Of course if they do follow the reg then every member of the Civil Air Patrol who was a member during the period of the award is entitled to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon.
So wear the ribbon and see how fast you get flamed!
As the SECAF created it, wouldn't it stand to reason that the SECAF can waiver any or all provisions of said regulation. It has been hashed out many times, and not to everyone's agreement, that a Commander can, and does violate regs up to what their Commanders will allow. Who is going to punish the SECAF? The SECDEF? POTUS? Really, who is going to care enough to spend all the time and resources to punish the SECAF over this? There are a lot bigger issues to deal with.
It's a nice thank you, and I for one appreciate it.
Yeah, what was that First Core Value? Oh yeah, Integrity First! But, I guess it's good to be the Queen. :clap:
That cite does not preclude nomination, nor does it preclude granting said award. That is just the typical way of doing business. I would also contend that we are not a "sister service" but can be considered a subordinate unit via TotalForce doctrine statement, or can't ANG or AF Reserve units be given this award?
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:34:12 PM
Yeah, what was that First Core Value? Oh yeah, Integrity First! But, I guess it's good to be the Queen. :clap:
You have yet to prove that they have broken a regulation that they don't have the authority to waive. Two, It's not my integrity at issue, and you still have to demonstrate that the SECAF has broken hers..
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:14:14 PM
Simple, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force organization. And we were probably "awarded" this just so the AF can say they value their "Civilian" Auxiliary.
+1 - CAP does not meet the published criteria for the award, authority or no, when you start making things up on the fly and "waiving" objective criteria,
you just call the whole situation into question.
The citation reads like someone just copied the bullet points from the Reports to Congress.
Sandy not withstanding, the operations over the last 4 years have not been exceptional when compared to other similar periods, and
during that same time the membership has declined over 7%, not to mention the loss of dozens, probably over a hundred charters (if not more).
And while FY2016 may have been a good year for flying, I'd be willing to bet that actual operations have declined since 2012, considering the last few years
it's been a struggle to put the requisite hours on the airframes and fill SAR jobs with competent people.
But people for whom the glass is always 1/2 full don't want to talk about things like numbers and stats, that makes them sad, so
you get branded "negative".
Believe me, there's no one in CAP that would like to believe that a new age of rebirth for CAP is just over the next hill...
...no one...
...but me, and a lot of others, have been left at the alter too many times to be optimistic beyond what we can see in front of us, and
the fact of the matter is that the
fundamentals of the organization aren't changing, it's all the same people, policies, politics, and posters,
except a little less of each every year.
I've said it before, I've gotten plenty from CAP, some good friends, some good experiences, seen things I would never have seen
otherwise, I even owe a good chunk of my current business to it.
I've got ribbons, and pictures, and memories. Hard to complain.
But in nearly all those cases, anything that rose to "excellence" was due to happenstance, brute force effort, and
the personalities involved. Many times as much time was wasted fighting inertia and "not invented here" as actually
doing anything of value for anyone.
And brute-force, personality-based situations don't scale, which means they evaporate around the membership leaving nothing
but campfire stories for the all-too significant population of members who never see a plane, never start a sortie, and / or leave
CAP before Curry because...well "because".
When the experience and expectations of the members in fly-over, small-town composite are generally the same as those at the wing
HQ squadron, then CAP can start talking about "OE".
Until then, they should say "Thank you USAF, glad to be on the TEAM, looking forward to showing you we deserve this..", and not make too big a deal about it.
Why is there not a doubt in my mind that Vanguard sales of this ribbon just went through the roof >:D
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:04:42 PMOne could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues.
Our government funding comes from appropriated funds allocated by Congress, given to the Air Force to manage. Except for some generous donations by the Air Force (such as CEAP), we are not an Air Force funded program.
We remain a private, non-profit corporation. It's a nice gesture, even if it's an award the Air Force wasn't supposed to give us.
One could certainly argue that actions taken by CAP when it is serving as the AF Auxiliary would meet the criteria. However, this part of the citation :
QuoteIn the classroom, the Civil Air Patrol-sponsored Aerospace Connections in Education program has reached twenty-thousand elementary school children, elevating academics and fitness with an engaging science, technology, engineering, and mathematics-themed curriculum. An annual powerhouse at the Air Force Association's Cyber Patriot National Youth Competition, Civil Air Patrol bested over three thousand other teams by finishing second in 2015 and third in 2016. Finally, through their Cadet Encampment Assistance Program, Civil Air Patrol has sponsored over 3,700 hundred cadets nationwide, increasing Air Force reach while embracing diversity and growing camp attendance by twenty percent.
refers to actions taken by CAP as CAP. While worthwhile, are outside the scope of our AF Auxiliary role.
Of course, thats if you believe in a really stringent view of when CAP, as an organization, is an AF Auxiliary. I personally believe that the organization a whole is ALWAYS in Auxiliary status since there are always open AFAMs. Of course, most individual members are not in AFAM status at any given time, but that is a separate issue.
Since CAP just received this award, does that mean any member active during the qualification period can wear the ribbon? AF rules are the HQ and any subordinate unit.
I sent an inquiry to NHQ, but I want your thoughts.
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/949846/civil-air-patrol-honored-for-75-years-of-service.aspx
See this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21466.msg393912;topicseen#msg393912 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21466.msg393912;topicseen#msg393912)
Which his post is currently in. I moved it. :)
I'm going to post this once.
PHall, et al., if you can't participate in a constructive, positive conversation about this award without questioning the authority of the SECAF, then go and complain elsewhere. You won't do it here. Am I clear?
One warning. This is it.
Quote from: Fubar on September 20, 2016, 11:07:56 PM
Quote from: Maj Daniel Sauerwein on September 20, 2016, 10:04:42 PMOne could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues.
Our government funding comes from appropriated funds allocated by Congress, given to the Air Force to manage. Except for some generous donations by the Air Force (such as CEAP), we are not an Air Force funded program.
We remain a private, non-profit corporation. It's a nice gesture, even if it's an award the Air Force wasn't supposed to give us.
I should have clarified that part, but then, isn't all defense funding allocated by Congress too?
That said, while we are a private, non-profit corporation, we do still act as the auxiliary when participating in AFAM's
Quote from: Pylon on September 21, 2016, 01:53:34 AM
I'm going to post this once.
PHall, et al., if you can't participate in a constructive, positive conversation about this award without questioning the authority of the SECAF, then go and complain elsewhere. You won't do it here. Am I clear?
One warning. This is it.
:clap: ^^^
I was delighted to see this news today, as any good recognition that raises awareness of our organization is great and needed to help in recruiting.
I do look forward to seeing what comes of this in terms of if we will be authorized to wear the ribbon.
CAP gets an award. Good job. :clap:
Some dork wants to wear a ribbon for CAP getting an award and still wonders why he is a dork.
--No ribbon for you! One Year!
Bring back the guayabera shirt!
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:29:39 PM
AFI 36-2803, Para 4.1.4. Air Force unit awards are primarily awarded to Air Force units and organizations. Sister Service units are not normally recommended for or selected to share in an Air Force peacetime unit award, as they are eligible for their own service unit awards.
Last time I looked, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force Unit or Organization.
"Primarily" "not normally" see....even the instructions allows for some wiggle room.
And again. If SECAF wants us to have one of his ribbons.....who is going to say he can't?
This whole thing is really a moot point at the moment and everybody is getting ahead of themselves.
Quote
CAPM 39-1, Chapter 11, para 11.2.1.1 US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903.
Emphasis mine.
Surely the USAF is considered "Competent Authority" for award of their own ribbons and medals. I think that about covers the flyby there.
However, the other aspect of the concept of "competent authority" is that you have award elements,
to include orders authorizing such, specifying dates and recipients (either by name, or by category, or by participation).
Sure, "back in the day" they had Generals wandering around battlefields with pockets full of bronze stars handing them out like Chiclets. No orders, no nothing, just "here ya go, son, nice work.." Subsequent to that, you have a far, far more regimented process, even for "impact" awards, which includes major amounts of documentation.
In today's environment, you generally don't wear something unless AND UNTIL, you have the orders saying so.
For the unprecedented step of the USAF awarding (and potentially allowing the wear of) a USAF award to CAP, anybody running around going "Can we wear it? Can we wear it?" is incredibly premature.
A) Generally, the USAF has to issue some sort of "order" that says "CAP gets this award for this reason under this authority.." (and regardless of what Phil says, yes, they do have that authority)
B) CAP will likely have to ascertain how this unprecendented USAF award will be worn on the CAP uniform,
if it will be worn on the uniform at all. Even accounting for that fact that this is a very, very big "if", we're talking about changing to CAPM 39-1 to account for the wear of that award, including where it gets worn and on what uniforms, and any issues surrounding how this might get worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms (which is no small consideration).
So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...
Quote from: NIN on September 21, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...
:clap: :clap:
Quote from: NIN on September 21, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
This whole thing is really a moot point at the moment and everybody is getting ahead of themselves.
For the unprecedented step of the USAF awarding (and potentially allowing the wear of) a USAF award to CAP, anybody running around going "Can we wear it? Can we wear it?" is incredibly premature.
A) Generally, the USAF has to issue some sort of "order" that says "CAP gets this award for this reason under this authority.." (and regardless of what Phil says, yes, they do have that authority)
B) CAP will likely have to ascertain how this unprecendented USAF award will be worn on the CAP uniform, if it will be worn on the uniform at all. Even accounting for that fact that this is a very, very big "if", we're talking about changing to CAPM 39-1 to account for the wear of that award, including where it gets worn and on what uniforms, and any issues surrounding how this might get worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms (which is no small consideration).
So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...
My guess is they'll work out a way for CAP members to wear it. But since CAP members are technically civilians, not miltary, the more correct answer would be to treat us the same as USAF Civilians in an organization that wins this award. They get the lapel pin, but not the ribbon. See AFI 30-1004, which states:
4.10. Other Air Force Recognition. Civilian employees are eligible for other types of recognition
according to the governing regulation or instruction. NOTE: The Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
(AFOUA) and Air Force Organizational Excellence Award (AFOEA) are not documented in the OPF or
DCPDS. Appropriate lapel buttons are used exclusively to recognize Air Force civilians assigned or
attached to units awarded the AFOUA or AFOEA who contributed to the achievements of a cited unit.
But again, if they bent the rules to give it to us, they'll probably bend the rules to let us wear the ribbon. There is precedence - the WWII CAP volunteers got air medals.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2016, 05:23:33 PM
?
Eclipse I think I owe YOU an apology, not the other way around.
I remember you flaming me for even suggesting that CAP could be awarded an Air Force Unit award of any type about a year ago, but I now believe it was PHall that flamed me.
Many pardons Effendi.
I think this is a very good thing for CAP, just like the USCGAux is eligible for all USCG unit awards, because they are considered part of the "Team Coast Guard", so now the precedent has been set that CAP is eligible for USAF unit awards, because they are considered part of "Team Air Force".
The value the CAP adds to the USAF Mission is being recognized at a "pretty high" level within the USAF hierarchy and that is outstanding.
I also think it will be interesting to see how the award is handled via eligibly status of individual CAP members and wear of the decoration itself on USAF-style vs. Corporate uniforms.
I'll point out for discussion that when the very first Coast Guard Presidential unit Citation (PUC-CG) was presented, every single member of Team Coast Guard (AC, RC, DoCG Civilian, and USCGAux) was authorized to wear the decoration.
Will the same hold true for CAP?
And I half jokingly ask will it be authorized for Patron members too? :P
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 04:03:04 PM
I think this is a very good thing for CAP, just like the USCGAux is eligible for all USCG unit awards, because they are considered part of the "Team Coast Guard", so now the precedent has been set that CAP is eligible for USAF unit awards, because they are considered part of "Team Air Force".
These two things are not the same.
Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.
CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.
These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force". Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.
tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs
I'm pretty sure that The Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc. is the corporate component of the Coast Guard Auxiliary.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 21, 2016, 04:51:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that The Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc. is the corporate component of the Coast Guard Auxiliary.
Two separate and distinct organizations. All auxiliarists are members of the association, but not all members of the association are auxiliarists.
The board shares leadership by design, but there is a separation legally. The associations purpose is fundraising and business management.
However, you did state that there was no corporate component. ::)
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 21, 2016, 05:22:05 PM
However, you did state that there was no corporate component.
And there isn't - the CGAux has no "corporate component" per se. The Association is more akin to a complicated booster club
with input. It's a funding mechanism, not a part of the CGAux.
Auxilarists don't have an "aux off" mode, which is the relevent part of the discussion. They are Aux-on all the time.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 21, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
These two things are not the same.
Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.
CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.
These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force". Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.
tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs
I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.
Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period 01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.
Too many people are trying to make this too complex.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 21, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
These two things are not the same.
Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.
CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.
These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force". Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.
tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs
I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.
Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period 01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.
So who is going to issue the order authorizing CAP members to wear this award? ???
When an Air Force unit gets this award all of the military members who were members of the unit during the award period are awarded the ribbon.
Civilian members of the unit (DAF ond DOD Civilian Employees) are not authorized the ribbon but are awarded a lapel pin version of the ribbon.
Quote from: PHall on September 21, 2016, 06:12:16 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 21, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
These two things are not the same.
Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.
CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.
These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force". Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.
tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs
I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.
Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period 01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.
So who is going to issue the order authorizing CAP members to wear this award? ???
When an Air Force unit gets this award all of the military members who were members of the unit during the award period are awarded the ribbon.
Civilian members of the unit (DAF ond DOD Civilian Employees) are not authorized the ribbon but are awarded a lapel pin version of the ribbon.
Since it is the SECAF awarding it, the order will probably come from her office. As for the display of the award, who knows. Anything other than speculation would be just a guess on anyone's part.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.
Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period 01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.
Yeah no not how "Total Force" works here sorry try again.
Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 06:39:56 PM
Since it is the SECAF awarding it, the order will probably come from her office. As for the display of the award, who knows. Anything other than speculation would be just a guess on anyone's part.
^^^ This.
We'll know when we know. And not too much sooner than that.
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members. I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members. I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.
Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members. I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.
I don't know, I suspect that very shortly every member of CAP will have a shiny new ribbon on their uniform.
I know, change in thinking is hard, but this a good change. ;)
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:33:07 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members. I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.
I don't know, I suspect that very shortly every member of CAP will have a shiny new ribbon on their uniform.
I know, change in thinking is hard, but this a good change. ;)
Which would be stupid.
QuoteWhich would be stupid.
Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.
Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members. I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.
The problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.
QuoteThe problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.
I concur, I have several USCG unit awards from my service in the USCGAux that I had added to my personnel records in the Army, I wear the ribbons on my Army uniform.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 09:18:49 PM
QuoteThe problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.
I concur, I have several USCG unit awards from my service in the USCGAux that I had added to my personnel records in the Army, I wear the ribbons on my Army uniform.
Likewise. I also had several Coast Guard unit awards that I earned with the CGAUX after I retired added to my service record via a DD-215.
Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid.
Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.
Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.
From my view in the cheap seats....I see a lapel pin for wear on the blazer or civilian wear and nada for the USAF-style or aviator uniforms.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 21, 2016, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid.
Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.
Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.
It's a good "gee-whiz" thing to throw into recruitment or outreach programs when describing how CAP directly affects the USAF and homeland security missions.
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX. No reason why this would be any different.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX. No reason why this would be any different.
I have 8 members in my unit that this would affect, not counting the numerous vets in the unit.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
No reason why this would be any different.
Other then they are,
completely different situations, both practically and from a regulatory standpoint.
As has been discussed on this board far more then one would probably assume considering this is
CAPTalk and not
CGAUXTalk,
Coast Guard Auxiliarists are fully authorized to receive a number of CG decorations under their status as the Aux.
Civil Air Patrol is not afforded that ability.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 21, 2016, 09:13:54 PM
The problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.
Negative. That DAF civilian would not be able to wear any award they earned in a civilian status on a military uniform. If they are an IMA assigned to an active duty unit that won the award then they could wear it. When the Air Force Personnel Center updates a member's record with a unit award it is done for those who were assigned to the unit for at least one day during the period of award. While GS-11 John Smith may have been assigned to that unit, MSgt John Smith wasn't.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 21, 2016, 05:36:27 PMAnd there isn't - the CGAux has no "corporate component" per se. The Association is more akin to a complicated booster club with input. It's a funding mechanism, not a part of the CGAux.
The original reason the AuxAssInc was formed was to hold the copyrights to the Aux's Public Ed (PE) materials. Since the USCGAux is a government organization it cannot copyright its publications nor stop anyone from copying them for free. So the Commandant of the USCG authorized the USCGAux to create the AuxAssInc to hold the copyrights, trademarks etc. That does tie to fund-raising since PE is one of the three largest sources of revenue for the USCGAux.
Since CAP already is a private corporation, it didn't need a separate body to own its copyrights.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 21, 2016, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid.
Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.
Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.
It happens in the USAF. If the 1st Air Force received a unit/organization award then every military member who was assigned to that unit for at least one day during the award period gets the ribbon. I have organizational awards that I received and I was in a unit about 5 or 6 levels down from the HQ. It just depends on how the award was written and the scope of recipients.
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:46:26 AM
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
National Defense Service Medal
Air Force Training Ribbon
Quote from: RiverAux on September 21, 2016, 09:38:50 PM
Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?
Easy to fix.
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Sure.....it will go with is NDSM, BMTS ribbon, Marksmanship ribbon and honor grad ribbon.
Of course he needs to bring the supporting documents.
This is no different than the prior service (Army NG types usualyl) who wore their army ribbons day 1.
Quote from: PHall on September 22, 2016, 07:12:49 AM
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:46:26 AM
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
National Defense Service Medal
Air Force Training Ribbon
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 21, 2016, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid.
Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.
Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.
The organization
IS the unit. How hard is this to grasp. Similar things have happened in the past... just not in CAP.
Now it has happen to CAP, enjoy the success, accept the award humbly and gratefully, and move on... all glory is fleeting.
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Yes absolutely. Prior Service types continue to wear awards from their previously earned awards, the USCGAux does not have a cadet/midshipman program but an 18 year old could join and later enlist/commission into the USCG and wear any USCG/DOT/DHS awards he/she earned in the USCGAux.
I just fail to see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2016, 02:57:05 AM
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX.
Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
No reason why this would be any different.
Other then they are, completely different situations, both practically and from a regulatory standpoint.
As has been discussed on this board far more then one would probably assume considering this is CAPTalk and not CGAUXTalk,
Coast Guard Auxiliarists are fully authorized to receive a number of CG decorations under their status as the Aux.
Civil Air Patrol is not afforded that ability.
Which clearly changed on the 20th of September 2016. ;)
Thank you Madame Secretary.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:31:45 PM
Which clearly changed on the 20th of September 2016.
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:46:26 AM
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
I cannot answer that question but the ENTIRE Coast Guard received a Presidential Unit Citation on 13 September 2005:
https://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary/awards/PUC_citation0506.pdf (https://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary/awards/PUC_citation0506.pdf)
And I quote the last line of the citation before the signature block:
QuoteAll Coast Guard members are authorized to wear the Presidential Unit Citation ribbon with a special clasp in the form of the internationally recognized "hurricane symbol".
(emphasis mine)
All is all. ;)
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2016, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:31:45 PM
Which clearly changed on the 20th of September 2016.
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.
Hey don't get mad at me Sir, that Air Force changed the rules on you for wanting to recognize the efforts and results of CAP.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:43:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2016, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:31:45 PM
Which clearly changed on the 20th of September 2016.
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.
Hey don't get mad at me Sir, that Air Force changed the rules on you for wanting to recognize the efforts and results of CAP.
At least as published and public, no "rules have been changed" - the USAF presented the Nat CC with a streamer for the flag.
It's very likely the downstream ramifications were not even considered.
Clearly people will "do what they will do" but "changing the rules" takes more then a desktop conversation and a photo-op.
A few years ago, HWSRN was handing out guard decorations to members of a wing that were "piloting" a sliced-bread-program
that turned out to be the bad idea many knew it was. That didn't fly, either.
HWSRN was not at the Secretariat level of the Department of the Air Force either.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2016, 01:49:01 PM
"changing the rules" takes more then a desktop conversation and a photo-op.
Where have you been for the last... like... 10 years?
The rules about what it takes to change the rules have changed...
Quote from: PHall on September 22, 2016, 07:12:49 AM
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:46:26 AM
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
National Defense Service Medal
Air Force Training Ribbon
Both of which take more than just hitting a CAP roster within stated time period. NDSM, sure, it it's not applied to all members automatically.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Yes absolutely. Prior Service types continue to wear awards from their previously earned awards, the USCGAux does not have a cadet/midshipman program but an 18 year old could join and later enlist/commission into the USCG and wear any USCG/DOT/DHS awards he/she earned in the USCGAux.
I just fail to see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
Except CAP is not prior service and does not have that type of a relationship with the USAF. Sorry a cadet awarded this will not be able to wear it upon graduation of basic. The BMT, NDSM, and the GWOT service (if that is still being awarded) yes but this one sadly know.
You really need to stop trying to say what CAP and the USAF will and won't do since you have absolutely no clue about it or the admin side of things.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 22, 2016, 10:14:52 AM
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Sure.....it will go with is NDSM, BMTS ribbon, Marksmanship ribbon and honor grad ribbon.
Of course he needs to bring the supporting documents.
This is no different than the prior service (Army NG types usualyl) who wore their army ribbons day 1.
Except CAP service especially as a cadet are not prior service.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:46:26 AM
What's the last award the whole Air Force got?
The AFOUA or AFOEA were awarded to a bulk of the units in the USAF for service on 9/11.
At least we are all "uniform" when it comes to uniforms, so we will wear the ribbon/lapel pin together... Wait, What? Oh crap....
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 22, 2016, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Yes absolutely. Prior Service types continue to wear awards from their previously earned awards, the USCGAux does not have a cadet/midshipman program but an 18 year old could join and later enlist/commission into the USCG and wear any USCG/DOT/DHS awards he/she earned in the USCGAux.
I just fail to see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
Except CAP is not prior service and does not have that type of a relationship with the USAF. Sorry a cadet awarded this will not be able to wear it upon graduation of basic. The BMT, NDSM, and the GWOT service (if that is still being awarded) yes but this one sadly know.
You really need to stop trying to say what CAP and the USAF will and won't do since you have absolutely no clue about it or the admin side of things.
I've served in the military for over 26 years and been assigned to several Joint commands so I have a pretty good "general" idea of how the USAF operates in comparison to the Army, I may be lacking in specifics of the nut and bolts but it cannot be so different from the Army because if a CAP member, be it a Cadet or a Senior Member, who was a USA, USAR or ARNG member, had the proper documentation for the award it would be added to his/her personnel file and they would be authorized to wear it on their Army uniform.
I'll cite myself as the example. I have several USCG unit Awards from my USCGAux Service. All documentation was submitted thru my Army chain of command and entered into my iPERMs and HRC's "My Records" and I wear them on my Army uniform.
This will be a new process for both CAP and USAF, an unintended consequence of this award to CAP by the USAF, but it will be worked out in time, it always is.
That being said, I feel confident that it will be authorized in the near future after that work out period.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
I've served in the military for over 26 years and been assigned to several Joint commands so I have a pretty good "general" idea of how the USAF operates in comparison to the Army, I may be lacking in specifics of the nut and bolts but it cannot be so different from the Army because if a CAP member, be it a Cadet or a Senior Member, who was a USA, USAR or ARNG member, had the proper documentation for the award it would be added to his/her personnel file and they would be authorized to wear it on their Army uniform.
I'll cite myself as the example. I have several USCG unit Awards from my USCGAux Service. All documentation was submitted thru my Army chain of command and entered into my iPERMs and HRC's "My Records" and I wear them on my Army uniform.
This will be a new process for both CAP and USAF, an unintended consequence of this award to CAP by the USAF, but it will be worked out in time, it always is.
That being said, I feel confident that it will be authorized in the near future after that work out period.
Awe joint service so you have no idea about the personnel functions or admin side of the AF. Yes they are different very different.
CAP serviceas a cadet does not count as service period. A cadet can not be active duty period. The AF is not going to award a cadet who enlists this award because they received it as a cadet.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Again you have no idea how CAP functions much less the personnel/admin side of the AF. Stick to Army things.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 22, 2016, 04:40:45 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
I've served in the military for over 26 years and been assigned to several Joint commands so I have a pretty good "general" idea of how the USAF operates in comparison to the Army, I may be lacking in specifics of the nut and bolts but it cannot be so different from the Army because if a CAP member, be it a Cadet or a Senior Member, who was a USA, USAR or ARNG member, had the proper documentation for the award it would be added to his/her personnel file and they would be authorized to wear it on their Army uniform.
I'll cite myself as the example. I have several USCG unit Awards from my USCGAux Service. All documentation was submitted thru my Army chain of command and entered into my iPERMs and HRC's "My Records" and I wear them on my Army uniform.
This will be a new process for both CAP and USAF, an unintended consequence of this award to CAP by the USAF, but it will be worked out in time, it always is.
That being said, I feel confident that it will be authorized in the near future after that work out period.
Awe joint service so you have no idea about the personnel functions or admin side of the AF. Yes they are different very different.
CAP serviceas a cadet does not count as service period. A cadet can not be active duty period. The AF is not going to award a cadet who enlists this award because they received it as a cadet.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Again you have no idea how CAP functions much less the personnel/admin side of the AF. Stick to Army things.
What about those of us in service academies or the Air Force reserves? For USAFA, we already have AFTR and NDSM. Many of us already have the AFOEA. An oak leaf cluster possibly on our AFOEA?
Possibly. We'll have to wait and see how this all plays out.
I have spoken to a sme on this and its opinion only, what I received was as follows:
1) Cadets receiving this award would not be able to have it added upon enlistment.
2) AF members who also are CAP members may be able to have it awarded and worn with documentation.
Even with ROTC not all their decs roll over to the AF side of things. So CAP service and receipt of this award prior to enlistment would not carry over to the AF.
Will be interesting to see if there is anything in the works at AFPC on this.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 22, 2016, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Yes absolutely. Prior Service types continue to wear awards from their previously earned awards, the USCGAux does not have a cadet/midshipman program but an 18 year old could join and later enlist/commission into the USCG and wear any USCG/DOT/DHS awards he/she earned in the USCGAux.
I just fail to see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
Except CAP is not prior service and does not have that type of a relationship with the USAF. Sorry a cadet awarded this will not be able to wear it upon graduation of basic. The BMT, NDSM, and the GWOT service (if that is still being awarded) yes but this one sadly know.
You really need to stop trying to say what CAP and the USAF will and won't do since you have absolutely no clue about it or the admin side of things.
I've served in the military for over 26 years and been assigned to several Joint commands so I have a pretty good "general" idea of how the USAF operates in comparison to the Army, I may be lacking in specifics of the nut and bolts but it cannot be so different from the Army because if a CAP member, be it a Cadet or a Senior Member, who was a USA, USAR or ARNG member, had the proper documentation for the award it would be added to his/her personnel file and they would be authorized to wear it on their Army uniform.
I'll cite myself as the example. I have several USCG unit Awards from my USCGAux Service. All documentation was submitted thru my Army chain of command and entered into my iPERMs and HRC's "My Records" and I wear them on my Army uniform.
This will be a new process for both CAP and USAF, an unintended consequence of this award to CAP by the USAF, but it will be worked out in time, it always is.
That being said, I feel confident that it will be authorized in the near future after that work out period.
Or they will decide that feeding the need for "bling" of their sometime civilian auxiliary is not worth it, and it will be a nice thing for NHQ to mention in press releases. As I've said before if we spent a portion of the effort we spend arguing about uniforms, or seeking out more bling to wear actually getting out there in the community and performing missions, we would be an actual force to be reckoned with
Quote from: Alaric on September 22, 2016, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 22, 2016, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: coudano on September 21, 2016, 11:46:31 PM
So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.
Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?
:clap:
Yes absolutely. Prior Service types continue to wear awards from their previously earned awards, the USCGAux does not have a cadet/midshipman program but an 18 year old could join and later enlist/commission into the USCG and wear any USCG/DOT/DHS awards he/she earned in the USCGAux.
I just fail to see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
Except CAP is not prior service and does not have that type of a relationship with the USAF. Sorry a cadet awarded this will not be able to wear it upon graduation of basic. The BMT, NDSM, and the GWOT service (if that is still being awarded) yes but this one sadly know.
You really need to stop trying to say what CAP and the USAF will and won't do since you have absolutely no clue about it or the admin side of things.
I've served in the military for over 26 years and been assigned to several Joint commands so I have a pretty good "general" idea of how the USAF operates in comparison to the Army, I may be lacking in specifics of the nut and bolts but it cannot be so different from the Army because if a CAP member, be it a Cadet or a Senior Member, who was a USA, USAR or ARNG member, had the proper documentation for the award it would be added to his/her personnel file and they would be authorized to wear it on their Army uniform.
I'll cite myself as the example. I have several USCG unit Awards from my USCGAux Service. All documentation was submitted thru my Army chain of command and entered into my iPERMs and HRC's "My Records" and I wear them on my Army uniform.
This will be a new process for both CAP and USAF, an unintended consequence of this award to CAP by the USAF, but it will be worked out in time, it always is.
That being said, I feel confident that it will be authorized in the near future after that work out period.
Or they will decide that feeding the need for "bling" of their sometime civilian auxiliary is not worth it, and it will be a nice thing for NHQ to mention in press releases. As I've said before if we spent a portion of the effort we spend arguing about uniforms, or seeking out more bling to wear actually getting out there in the community and performing missions, we would be an actual force to be reckoned with
Alaric for President.
Quote from: Alaric on September 22, 2016, 05:20:58 PM
Or they will decide that feeding the need for "bling" of their sometime civilian auxiliary is not worth it, and it will be a nice thing for NHQ to mention in press releases. As I've said before if we spent a portion of the effort we spend arguing about uniforms, or seeking out more bling to wear actually getting out there in the community and performing missions, we would be an actual force to be reckoned with
Missions? What missions? I'm here to look good on parade day!
The AFOEA was awarded to the organization not CAP-USAF...watch the ceremony.
Imagine that, CAP members get their first very real Air Force ribbon.
I earned two AFOEAs during my AF Career. It goes to un-numbered organizations that are recognized by the Air Force. It is NOT something just given away and NEVER take this recognition lightly!
Face it, there would have been a nomination package submitted through channels and approved at various levels of command authority for this very important award. It would be interesting to see the package. It will also be interesting to see the orders when they are published.
I suspect NHQ will forward the orders along with appropriate guidance when the time comes.
By the way, uniformed Air Force members get both the ribbon and the lapel pin...at least I did. That fact was reinforced when I requested replacements of medals from the National Personnel Records Center.
Stop quibbling about the details and give yourself a very well deserved pat on the back.
From my own perspective, it pretty strongly shows a shift in the Air Force's perception of the CAP that has been occurring so dramatically in the last two to three years.
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 22, 2016, 06:47:42 PM
The AFOEA was awarded to the organization not CAP-USAF...watch the ceremony.
Imagine that, CAP members get their first very real Air Force ribbon.
I earned two AFOEAs during my AF Career. It goes to un-numbered organizations that are recognized by the Air Force. It is NOT something just given away and NEVER take this recognition lightly!
Face it, there would have been a nomination package submitted through channels and approved at various levels of command authority for this very important award. It would be interesting to see the package. It will also be interesting to see the orders when they are published.
I suspect NHQ will forward the orders along with appropriate guidance when the time comes.
By the way, uniformed Air Force members get both the ribbon and the lapel pin...at least I did. That fact was reinforced when I requested replacements of medals from the National Personnel Records Center.
Stop quibbling about the details and give yourself a very well deserved pat on the back.
From my own perspective, it pretty strongly shows a shift in the Air Force's perception of the CAP that has been occurring so dramatically in the last two to three years.
Actually, AFOEA's and AFOUA's are not that hard to get. Mostly depends on the quality of the word smithing when putting together the package.
My Airlift Squadron got 5 AFOUA's over a 12 year period. And we weren't doing anything much different then any other squadron flying C-141's.
But we did have a kickass Squadron Exec who was an English Major and in her day job she was an English Teacher.
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 05:59:46 PM
Quote from: Alaric on September 22, 2016, 05:20:58 PM
Or they will decide that feeding the need for "bling" of their sometime civilian auxiliary is not worth it, and it will be a nice thing for NHQ to mention in press releases. As I've said before if we spent a portion of the effort we spend arguing about uniforms, or seeking out more bling to wear actually getting out there in the community and performing missions, we would be an actual force to be reckoned with
Missions? What missions? I'm here to look good on parade day!
Work harder then, you have yet to succeed in that mission
As an example, WIWAC, all of Northeast Region was awarded the Unit Commendation Award. The entire region, not just the HQ. To this day, I have no idea of what the circumstances were. And no idea what my contribution might have been, if any.
Sent from my phone.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 22, 2016, 01:39:46 PMI cannot answer that question but the ENTIRE Coast Guard received a Presidential Unit Citation on 13 September 2005:
https://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary/awards/PUC_citation0506.pdf (https://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary/awards/PUC_citation0506.pdf)
And I quote the last line of the citation before the signature block:
QuoteAll Coast Guard members are authorized to wear the Presidential Unit Citation ribbon with a special clasp in the form of the internationally recognized "hurricane symbol".
(emphasis mine)
All is all. ;)
Inside the citation is the example and/or definition of "all"
QuoteThis inspiring response is a direct result of the spirit and practice of operational initiative, positive leadership and courage of the total Coast Guard force of active duty, reserve, auxiliary and civilian members.
So if "all is all", then even the CAP civilian employees should be getting the award.
Quote from: Alaric on September 22, 2016, 08:01:55 PM
Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 05:59:46 PM
Quote from: Alaric on September 22, 2016, 05:20:58 PM
Or they will decide that feeding the need for "bling" of their sometime civilian auxiliary is not worth it, and it will be a nice thing for NHQ to mention in press releases. As I've said before if we spent a portion of the effort we spend arguing about uniforms, or seeking out more bling to wear actually getting out there in the community and performing missions, we would be an actual force to be reckoned with
Missions? What missions? I'm here to look good on parade day!
Work harder then, you have yet to succeed in that mission
(http://prod-cdn.thekrazycouponlady.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/DIY-ice-pack-02.jpg)
Thus far all this discussion on the AFOEA -- will or won't we wear it -- is making my head ache and spin.
From my perspective, it is a wonderful honor and a privilege to serve as a volunteer in the CAP-USAF Auxiliary, an organization that for the past 75 years has served the citizens of our nation with great dedication and distinction. Any recognition by Congress (CGM) or the USAF (OEA) is nice..."attaboys" are always appreciated and welcomed -- but our service should speak for itself. "Semper Vigilans"
What's the big deal, the SECAF and Chief of Staff recognized CAP with an award that recognizes our contributions to the Air Force and the communities we serve.
CAPM 39-1.11(1) states that " Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. ..."
If the Secretary of the Air Force isn't considered competent authority, I don't know who is. Wear the darn thing, because when I next configure my ribbon rack, the AFOEA will be added.
Quote from: MSG Mac on September 22, 2016, 09:54:46 PM
What's the big deal, the SECAF and Chief of Staff recognized CAP with an award that recognizes our contributions to the Air Force and the communities we serve.
CAPM 39-1.11(1) states that " Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. ..."
If the Secretary of the Air Force isn't considered competent authority, I don't know who is. Wear the darn thing, because when I next configure my ribbon rack, the AFOEA will be added.
Just do the smart thing and ignore the captalk angst and wait for wear instructions.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 22, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 21, 2016, 09:38:50 PM
Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?
Easy to fix.
You and I have different definitions of the word easy.
Quote from: Fubar on September 23, 2016, 04:06:49 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 22, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 21, 2016, 09:38:50 PM
Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?
Easy to fix.
You and I have different definitions of the word easy.
That's not a discrepancy. It is a change in Air Force policy. It used to be in the Air Force that you could wear a unit award granted the unit/organization during it's history. Without quoting the appropriate regulations, sometime about the late 1970s, the policy changed where you could only wear a unit award if you were a member of the unit when it was awarded. So, for example, I earned six AFOUAs and two AFOEAs during my Air Force career. One of my former units, what is now the 21st Space Wing, earned a PUC in WW II and 13 AFOUAs when it was a composite wing/tactical fighter wing assigned to the Alaskan Air Command. I was assigned to the wing when two of the AFOUAs were awarded so two of the awards to my credit are from this wing.
If you had left the unit and learned later that your former unit had earned a unit award, you simply went to military personnel with the documentation and your records would be updated. Veterans do that now by submitting a DD Form 149 correction of military records and are issued a DD Form 215 with the change.
That is why for the CAP this is a really big deal and people should be really proud of the accomplishment. It may never happen again -- especially with the hair splitting that has been going on.
I wrote the AFOUA nomination for what is now the 910th Airlift Wing. It was the first one the unit was awarded and I (then a Public Affairs type) was personally selected by the wing commander because of my success in writing decoration nominations. The previous AFOUA packages assembled by the military personnel and operations guys up to that time were always shot down, so I can tell you from experience the process for this award wasn't as simple or easy as some on this website have described. That's why I would like to see the nomination package and I hope it's shared to the field because it will be a model for future CAP or unit award nominations.
Something to note here is that this AFOEA was presented at an AFA event. That means it was done, as we used to say, out of cycle -- or the traditional process. I was a member of the 439th Military Airlift Wing when this wing was presented an AFOUA upon de-mobilization from Desert Storm. In that situation, the Under Secretary of the Air Force flew to Westover with a citation and certificate that was "still wet" and the orders didn't follow for more than a month. What to watch for now is if NHQ will share images of the award certificate and citation -- which will no doubt go on display at NHQ. There should be orders distributed to the field for personnel files and to determine who at unit level is eligible to wear the award. Given that things like cadet and senior milestone awards are listed in e-services, I would wonder if NHQ will simply update everyone's records electronically or if the orders will be forwarded to the field and the appropriate additions made to personnel files.
And yes, if a cadet goes on to serve in the Air Force, does he or she take this award with them, the answer is yes. They would be entitled to continue wearing it, but I suspect that recognition will not formally transfer until they get to their first permanent base. It is, after all, the decision of an Air Force unit commander or the awards and decorations people at military personnel, and not the hair-splitting of CAP members on this website.
Quote from: PHall on September 22, 2016, 07:58:33 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 22, 2016, 06:47:42 PM
The AFOEA was awarded to the organization not CAP-USAF...watch the ceremony.
Imagine that, CAP members get their first very real Air Force ribbon.
I earned two AFOEAs during my AF Career. It goes to un-numbered organizations that are recognized by the Air Force. It is NOT something just given away and NEVER take this recognition lightly!
Face it, there would have been a nomination package submitted through channels and approved at various levels of command authority for this very important award. It would be interesting to see the package. It will also be interesting to see the orders when they are published.
I suspect NHQ will forward the orders along with appropriate guidance when the time comes.
By the way, uniformed Air Force members get both the ribbon and the lapel pin...at least I did. That fact was reinforced when I requested replacements of medals from the National Personnel Records Center.
Stop quibbling about the details and give yourself a very well deserved pat on the back.
From my own perspective, it pretty strongly shows a shift in the Air Force's perception of the CAP that has been occurring so dramatically in the last two to three years.
Actually, AFOEA's and AFOUA's are not that hard to get. Mostly depends on the quality of the word smithing when putting together the package.
My Airlift Squadron got 5 AFOUA's over a 12 year period. And we weren't doing anything much different then any other squadron flying C-141's.
But we did have a kickass Squadron Exec who was an English Major and in her day job she was an English Teacher.
except for all those other units that did not get one. Sure....the word smithing is important. But with out documented actions to support the words.....you get butkus.
Quote from: Fubar on September 23, 2016, 04:06:49 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 22, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 21, 2016, 09:38:50 PM
Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?
Easy to fix.
You and I have different definitions of the word easy.
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
:)
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 23, 2016, 08:21:00 AM
And yes, if a cadet goes on to serve in the Air Force, does he or she take this award with them, the answer is yes. They would be entitled to continue wearing it, but I suspect that recognition will not formally transfer until they get to their first permanent base. It is, after all, the decision of an Air Force unit commander or the awards and decorations people at military personnel, and not the hair-splitting of CAP members on this website.
Have a cite for this? Because I actually talked to a personnelist about this yesterday and the answer I received was no. So no if a cadet enlists this will not transfer over. In order for decorations to transfer they have to be prior service or awarded during current service.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 23, 2016, 08:21:00 AMAnd yes, if a cadet goes on to serve in the Air Force, does he or she take this award with them, the answer is yes.
I am politely skeptical.
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 24, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Do we really need the USAF to recognize a youth organization with a device on a military ribbon? Once enlisted, if a cadet made it their Mitchell, their service in CAP is reflected by their extra stripes on their sleeve. What is it with people in CAP and wanting recognition for everything and constant reassurance from the USAF? I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 24, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Do we really need the USAF to recognize a youth organization with a device on a military ribbon?
Last I checked CAP is more than a youth organization. I've even heard rumblings that it is an auxiliary of a major organization, with real missions and stuff!
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 24, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Do we really need the USAF to recognize a youth organization with a device on a military ribbon? Once enlisted, if a cadet made it their Mitchell, their service in CAP is reflected by their extra stripes on their sleeve. What is it with people in CAP and wanting recognition for everything and constant reassurance from the USAF? I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Did you have a problem with wearing the unit awards that your unit won in WWII or WWI? Coming from an ex-army member.....too much bling.....is a little of the pot calling out the kettle.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: lordmonar on September 26, 2016, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 24, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Do we really need the USAF to recognize a youth organization with a device on a military ribbon? Once enlisted, if a cadet made it their Mitchell, their service in CAP is reflected by their extra stripes on their sleeve. What is it with people in CAP and wanting recognition for everything and constant reassurance from the USAF? I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Did you have a problem with wearing the unit awards that your unit won in WWII or WWI? Coming from an ex-army member.....too much bling.....is a little of the pot calling out the kettle.
Pat, he wasn't in the Army. He was a Marine. Just a small, slight difference there.
Quote from: PHall on September 27, 2016, 12:37:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 26, 2016, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Did you have a problem with wearing the unit awards that your unit won in WWII or WWI? Coming from an ex-army member.....too much bling.....is a little of the pot calling out the kettle.
Pat, he wasn't in the Army. He was a Marine. Just a small, slight difference there.
He referenced wearing a black beret due to Shinseki. Pretty distinctly Army.
(I know Flying Pig was in the USMC, but didn't he lateral one way or the other to/from the Army? That would make sense.)
1st Lt Raduenz
Quote from: PHall on September 27, 2016, 12:37:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 26, 2016, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on September 24, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 24, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 23, 2016, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
"All members (Active, retired, patron, sponsor and cadet...et al) who were members in good standing for at least one day from Oct. 1, 2012 thru Aug. 31, 2016 are allowed to wear the AFOEA. This can be worn on both USAF style and Corporate uniforms. The placement will be in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903."
That took me all of two minutes.
That's because the above sentences are contradictory under the current regulations.
It's easy to just write something on the whiteboard as you walk out the door if you don't actually care about the regs.
When making an exception to the current regulations......it will be contradictory to the current regulations and once the above lines are inserted into the regulations then it will be part of the regulation and not contradictory at all.
Set the calendar - this would open doors left purposely closed for 20 some years.
I don't know how it would "open a door". It would be a one time, one line, change to the reg to apply to just one time period. It may open to the door for more USAF awards....but that is it.
I think that subject was run through the ringer once before. I don't think you'd ever see an AFOUA because of the nature of that unit award. I'd like to see a device on the Air Force Training Ribbon to reflect accession training from CAP for that former milestone cadet that enters basic, ROTC or the Academy.
Do you think someone will ever post the attachment and orders on this website?
I've now been retired from CAP for two years -- following 44 years of service -- and have little contact with the organization other than what I'm able to glean on-line.
Do we really need the USAF to recognize a youth organization with a device on a military ribbon? Once enlisted, if a cadet made it their Mitchell, their service in CAP is reflected by their extra stripes on their sleeve. What is it with people in CAP and wanting recognition for everything and constant reassurance from the USAF? I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Did you have a problem with wearing the unit awards that your unit won in WWII or WWI? Coming from an ex-army member.....too much bling.....is a little of the pot calling out the kettle.
Pat, he wasn't in the Army. He was a Marine. Just a small, slight difference there.
Then why would he be embarrassed "the same way
I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the army....."
Quote from: DakRadz on September 27, 2016, 01:28:21 AM
Quote from: PHall on September 27, 2016, 12:37:48 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 26, 2016, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 25, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
I would be absolutely embarrassed to wear a blanket award from the USAF the same way I was embarrassed to wear the black beret in the Army when Gen Shinseki thought giving everyone a hat would make them feel elite.
Did you have a problem with wearing the unit awards that your unit won in WWII or WWI? Coming from an ex-army member.....too much bling.....is a little of the pot calling out the kettle.
Pat, he wasn't in the Army. He was a Marine. Just a small, slight difference there.
He referenced wearing a black beret due to Shinseki. Pretty distinctly Army.
(I know Flying Pig was in the USMC, but didn't he lateral one way or the other to/from the Army? That would make sense.)
1st Lt Raduenz
As I recall, he went Army Reserve (maybe guard) after his service in the Marines was over.
BTW, in case anybody is wondering....
QuoteThe Air Force has not made a formal decision yet on whether CAP members will be able to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on the Air Force style uniforms. Please ask your members to be patient until we receive the final decision from the Air Force. Hopefully we will have the answer to that and other related questions within a few weeks.
Quote from: NIN on September 27, 2016, 07:19:13 PM
BTW, in case anybody is wondering....
QuoteThe Air Force has not made a formal decision yet on whether CAP members will be able to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on the Air Force style uniforms. Please ask your members to be patient until we receive the final decision from the Air Force. Hopefully we will have the answer to that and other related questions within a few weeks.
Thanks. Source?
Quote from: NIN on September 27, 2016, 07:19:13 PM
BTW, in case anybody is wondering....
QuoteThe Air Force has not made a formal decision yet on whether CAP members will be able to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on the Air Force style uniforms. Please ask your members to be patient until we receive the final decision from the Air Force. Hopefully we will have the answer to that and other related questions within a few weeks.
That looks like a KB response.
I have to go sit down the room is spinning.
Why aren't these questions asked and answered
beforehand?
This is the kind of thing that wastes the most time, effort, initiative and worst, esprit-de-corps -
specifically rushing things out the door, when there is no actual rush whatsoever, many times
ignoring the advice, sometimes solicited advice, of the membership at large.
- 10 years to update 39-1, member input ignored, rushed out the door broken, remains broken 2 years later.
Encampment curriculum in draft form for 3 years, tested for two more, published seriously broken, remains broken 2 years later.
ABU ICL published broken / incomplete, update broken / incomplete, remain broken.
But NHQ can issue emergency instructions overnight on what email signature to use,
(which was also largely unusable by many email systems).
The above are just three high-visibility examples of what can be found all across the regs and policies,
and that doesn't even account for all the places Wing and below make up more rules or replicate these problems.
Now add up all the times questions are raised about things that should be fixed when found, x's member hours,
and you have one of the top ten reasons mission-centric things aren't getting done.
In this case...
"Hey boss, cool on giving CAP that award, but you know their regs don't allow for the members to be awarded
military decorations, right?"
"Wow, really? Hadn't considered that..."
"Yeah, and even if we waive the first part, other regs preclude about 1/2 the adult membership from
wearing military awards at all, and giving it to cadets may cause real issues, plus, there's the issue
of whether AD and Reservists could wear it on their uniforms..."
"Plus there's the thorny issue of whether or not their patrons, sponsor and legislative members should receive it,
and what about all those members we just heard about that never show up...ever?"
"Hmmm...OK, write the dec up as an "honorarium recognizing contribution but not to include individual decorations."
"Done, thanks...this will look real nice on their flag and make a good press release..."
Quote from: Eclipse on September 27, 2016, 07:40:09 PM
Quote from: NIN on September 27, 2016, 07:19:13 PM
BTW, in case anybody is wondering....
QuoteThe Air Force has not made a formal decision yet on whether CAP members will be able to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on the Air Force style uniforms. Please ask your members to be patient until we receive the final decision from the Air Force. Hopefully we will have the answer to that and other related questions within a few weeks.
That looks like a KB response.
I have to go sit down the room is spinning.
Why aren't these questions asked and answered beforehand?
This is the kind of thing that wastes the most time, effort, initiative and worst, esprit-de-corps -
specifically rushing things out the door, when there is no actual rush whatsoever, many times
ignoring the advice, sometimes solicited advice, of the membership at large.
- 10 years to update 39-1, member input ignored, rushed out the door broken, remains broken 2 years later.
Encampment curriculum in draft form for 3 years, tested for two more, published seriously broken, remains broken 2 years later.
ABU ACL published broken / incomplete, update broken / incomplete, remain broken.
But NHQ can issue emergency instructions overnight on what email signature to use,
(which was also largely unusable by many email systems).
The above are just three high-visibility examples of what can be found all across the regs and policies,
and that doesn't even account for all the places Wing and below make up more rules or replicate these problems.
Now add up all the times questions are raised about things that should be fixed when found, x's member hours,
and you have one of the top ten reasons mission-centric things aren't getting done.
You are exactly correct.
Regarding the AFOEA, someone in CAP (NHQ, etc) wrote the nomination package. I don't know why the question was not asked from the beginning, "If we get this, will our members be authorized to wear the ribbon?" My guess is either nobody thought to ask in advance (likely) or it was considered but they were afraid if they asked the question first then the award may not get approved (very likely).
Correctly obvious mistakes in regulations should not be that difficult. They are all just Word documents that are converted to PDF. I'm not sure why this is made into such a difficult process. It is actually easier to get an AFI changed than a CAPR.
Quote"Hmmm...OK, write the dec up as an "honorarium recognizing contribution but not to include individual decorations."
"Done, thanks...this will look real nice on their flag and make a good press release..."
Or the Secretary could have responded:
"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." ;)
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 05:52:39 PM
"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms.
Sounds good in a web forum, takes substantially more then a "memo" - for starters, the SECAF doesn't directly control the regulations that prohibit wear of military decs
on CAP uniforms. CAP is, after all, a separate entity with a specific process for updating and changing regulations (which it routinely ignores).
This situation takes more then an ICL, and opens up other issues the USAF has not wanted to address in the past.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 05:52:39 PM
Quote"Hmmm...OK, write the dec up as an "honorarium recognizing contribution but not to include individual decorations."
"Done, thanks...this will look real nice on their flag and make a good press release..."
Or the Secretary could have responded:
"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." ;)
It is even more complicated than that, because you would have to take into account former and retired military (Air Force and other branches) who may or may not already have this unit award.
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 05:52:39 PM
Or the Secretary could have responded:
"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." ;)
Won't happen. And again there will not be any credit issued to cadets to wear the award upon commisioning or enlistment. The only caveat is prior service and CAP service especially cadet service no matter which way you try to argue, justify or articulate does not count.
QuoteWon't happen. And again there will not be any credit issued to cadets to wear the award upon commisioning or enlistment. The only caveat is prior service and CAP service especially cadet service no matter which way you try to argue, justify or articulate does not count.
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would
NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 06:41:10 PM
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't. Your powers of observation need a reboot.
You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG, CGAux and the Army. None of those apply here period. The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services. They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it. CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there. There is nothing currently in the works for it either.
You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 30, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 06:41:10 PM
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't. Your powers of observation need a reboot.
You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG, CGAux and the Army. None of those apply here period. The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services. They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it. CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there. There is nothing currently in the works for it either.
You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.
Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? ::)
QuoteBecause you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? ::)
Thank you.
Stillamarine and Shuman. I have a far greater understanding of knowledge of what goes on in the AF than either of you put together. I also have a greater understand of the relationship between the AF and CAP than either of you.
I also have SMEs in this realm who I have pinged in regards to this very topic and they have said no.
So as it stands BLUF currently and for the future there is no provision for cadets to wear this award upon commisioning or enlistment. The stance it it has to be earned while in the service and CAP service and cadet service does not count.
How many SMEs do you have?
Plus if it's not in the AFI it's not going to happen....
I think the bottom line is that we are not going to know what happens until it happens. Speculating, counterspeculating and respeculating just doesn't carry any weight until we have a firm decision. It's obvious that we all have opinions, some more informed than others, on how we'd like to see this go. Patience, padawans...the planetarium will make their decision and when they do, we'll be the last to know....
Quote from: stillamarine on September 30, 2016, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 30, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 06:41:10 PM
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't. Your powers of observation need a reboot.
You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG, CGAux and the Army. None of those apply here period. The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services. They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it. CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there. There is nothing currently in the works for it either.
You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.
Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? ::)
Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".
Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2016, 12:35:03 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on September 30, 2016, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 30, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 06:41:10 PM
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't. Your powers of observation need a reboot.
You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG, CGAux and the Army. None of those apply here period. The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services. They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it. CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there. There is nothing currently in the works for it either.
You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.
Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? ::)
Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".
But so was I......and I disagree with with what he says and my SMEs say differently then his SMEs. So their point stands.
Ain't none of us in any position of saying definitively what is going to happen.
CAP and the USAF are working out the details. They will tell us what's what when they know.
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." -Napoleon Bonaparte
.....or in the case of CAP, argue long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon Id bet 99% of the membership couldnt even recognize on ribbon rack until a few weeks ago.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 01, 2016, 12:37:34 PM
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." -Napoleon Bonaparte
.....or in the case of CAP CAPTALK, argue long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon Id bet 99% of the membership couldnt even recognize on ribbon rack until a few weeks ago.
FTFY
The "argument" here isn't about the ribbon, it's about donuts.
Specifically about CAP's seemingly universal ability to promise donuts and then be unable to deliver them.
Everyone loves donuts (except for facists and ne'er-do-wells).
CAP routinely buys the cheapest brand and then wonders why no one eats them, or why they didn't taste as good as the picture on the box.
CAP routinely asks the members "what kind of donuts do you want?", and then ignores the list and grabs a package at the gas station on the way to the meeting.
CAP publishes detailed, complete recipes for donuts and then ignores them in favor of "quick" or "easy", the result being bread with butter and sugar.
and worst...
CAP just can't leave the oven door or fryer lid closed long enough to let their donuts cook completely and thoroughly to the perfection
their detailed recipes and promises portended. Instead it's all done in a hurry at the last minute, thrown in a box 1/2 cooked and rushed out the door.
The result being stuff that looks like donuts, maybe even smells like donuts, but that have undercooked centers, missing ingredients, and basically no one wants.
Both the USAF and CAP have extensive rules about decorations in general, and this one specifically, that negate the presentation as it was done, not to mention the
wear. All of which could have and should have been mixed and cooked out before it was removed from the oven and presented.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 01, 2016, 07:41:57 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 01, 2016, 12:35:03 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on September 30, 2016, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 30, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 30, 2016, 06:41:10 PM
Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.
I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?
It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.
The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.
The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.
:-\
Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't. Your powers of observation need a reboot.
You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG, CGAux and the Army. None of those apply here period. The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services. They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it. CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there. There is nothing currently in the works for it either.
You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.
Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? ::)
Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".
But so was I......and I disagree with with what he says and my SMEs say differently then his SMEs. So their point stands.
Ain't none of us in any position of saying definitively what is going to happen.
CAP and the USAF are working out the details. They will tell us what's what when they know.
^ this. Just because he "was" in the AF doesn't mean he knows everything going on. Hell SECAF doesn't know everything going on in the AF. I've asked a few currently serving AF members and they've all answered differently. Some say yes. Some say no. A couple said "What's CAP" [emoji23][emoji23]
Things change. Couple months ago we never thought we'd be awarded an AF organizational award. Now we have. Now we think they'll never let us wear it, nor wear it when a member enlists. So just maybe that'll change too.
Reminds me of training old school cops. Cops hate change and will come up with all sorts of stuff as to why it shouldn't happen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I love donuts.
I love the donut analogy.
I think it does apply... maybe to a minor extent...
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 01, 2016, 03:45:08 PM
I love donuts.
I love the donut analogy.
I think it does apply... maybe to a minor extent...
I just saw a picture of a reese's cup donut. I'm going to need one of those.
Actually I am still in and I talk to the people who deal with these things daily. Of course nothing stops you guys who are arguing so for it from contacting AFPC on this and I am pretty sure they will say it will not carry or better yet you can always contact Chief Cody as well.
I have poured through the AFI's on this and its not there to allow anyone receiving this award who was not prior service to carry it over. The personellist I have spoken to and they are the legit 3S types so Pat and Still unless you are talking to 3S's, AFPC or the CMSAF your sources are wrong.
I can tell you that if I had an Airman fresh from tech shool schow wearing this he/she better have proper documentation on it to be wearing it, otherwise off it comes.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 01, 2016, 06:10:10 PM
Actually I am still in and I talk to the people who deal with these things daily. Of course nothing stops you guys who are arguing so for it from contacting AFPC on this and I am pretty sure they will say it will not carry or better yet you can always contact Chief Cody as well.
I have poured through the AFI's on this and its not there to allow anyone receiving this award who was not prior service to carry it over. The personellist I have spoken to and they are the legit 3S types so Pat and Still unless you are talking to 3S's, AFPC or the CMSAF your sources are wrong.
I can tell you that if I had an Airman fresh from tech shool schow wearing this he/she better have proper documentation on it to be wearing it, otherwise off it comes.
lol
I don't know how many times in my career that I had to correct 3S types on award and decoration issues as well as other issues.
So...I will concede your point.....to a point.
But as has been stated previously. This is kind of a new thing. It is being worked at SAF level. When they figure it out, they will tell us.
How long is this urinating contest going to be allowed to go on. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Yet some feel the need to prove their arc is higher than someone else. Give it a rest, please. :( :(
Eclipse,
I have read many an analogy before. You may have won the internet.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 01, 2016, 08:57:32 PM
But as has been stated previously. This is kind of a new thing. It is being worked at SAF level. When they figure it out, they will tell us.
^^^ This.
and
Quote from: eclipse
Both the USAF and CAP have extensive rules about decorations in general, and this one specifically, that negate the presentation as it was done, not to mention the
wear. All of which could have and should have been mixed and cooked out before it was removed from the oven and presented.
I'm led to believe that very senior USAF folks involved in the process knew, before the award presentation, that there were some things to surmount before any kind of an award would be "worn" by Civil Air Patrol members, but considering the time line (ie. the impending anniversary, etc), didn't want to jeopardize the good news of an award by raising them.
Isn't it good enough that the Air Force thought so highly of CAP to take the unprecedented step of awarding the Organizational Excellence Award to its civilian auxiliary?
I'm sure you can email the Chief of Staff to express your opinion about the rules, and how his staff is following them. I bet somebody here has the General's email.
I just hope it works better for you than it did this guy (http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/airforce.asp).
[fixed IT guy's funky link ;)]
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
Apparently he eventually transferred to CU-Boulder and got a BS in Comp Sci :)
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
It happens. As it turns out, it was a few extra characters.
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
If all he got was a rebuke in the emails, he got darn lucky. I hope he learned that lesson in any event.
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp (http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp)
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
It's fixed. See above. >:D
Did somebody say Doughnuts?
From the knowledge base 3 Oct 16:
NOTE: The Air Force is in the process of determining wear requirements for the AFOEA and we will let CAP members know what those requirements are just as soon as we receive them from the Air Force.
ManCandy?
Quote from: Eclipse on October 05, 2016, 08:20:02 PM
ManCandy?
DADT.... Because we really don't want to know! :o
I guess no one has seen Mean Girls lol.
Quote from: ManCandy on October 07, 2016, 05:09:08 PM
I guess no one has seen Mean Girls lol.
And there is a 80% chance of rain! :)
The thing that really bugs me about all this, and its not from the Air Force. It's the fact that for YEARS, we- particularly here on CapTalk- have been whining and raging about being more and more distant from the Air Force, and then we become part of the Total Force. People still complained that it was just a publicity stunt or that it was a gesture without meaning. Suddenly, the Air Force goes and proves that they meant more than just words, then suddenly- they can't do that, we couldn't accept it if we wanted to. It seems to me- for the most part, that those arguing the hardest against us for receiving this award are those that are current/former Air Force (not exclusive on either side.)
Can't we just be glad that the Air Force is actively trying to improve the relationship with us. Why can't you be happy that they are working really hard to make things right. If you haven't noticed the Air Force, and the Military in general, have been going through some bad PR at the moment, and they are still taking time and effort when they could ignore us for now until they get themselves straightened out.
Sure, things could be better at the local level, but things take time, and mutual respect on both sides of the house. For those of you with the issues with this award- other than those concerned with details of how worn- check your ego and re-evaluate why you are so worked up about this. If you think we as CAP don't rate this award- suck it- the SECAF says we do.
I, for one, am grateful to the Us Air Force for this. Thank you.
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 07, 2016, 05:24:09 PM
The thing that really bugs me about all this, and its not from the Air Force. It's the fact that for YEARS, we- particularly here on CapTalk- have been whining and raging about being more and more distant from the Air Force, and then we become part of the Total Force. People still complained that it was just a publicity stunt or that it was a gesture without meaning. Suddenly, the Air Force goes and proves that they meant more than just words, then suddenly- they can't do that, we couldn't accept it if we wanted to. It seems to me- for the most part, that those arguing the hardest against us for receiving this award are those that are current/former Air Force (not exclusive on either side.)
Can't we just be glad that the Air Force is actively trying to improve the relationship with us. Why can't you be happy that they are working really hard to make things right. If you haven't noticed the Air Force, and the Military in general, have been going through some bad PR at the moment, and they are still taking time and effort when they could ignore us for now until they get themselves straightened out.
Sure, things could be better at the local level, but things take time, and mutual respect on both sides of the house. For those of you with the issues with this award- other than those concerned with details of how worn- check your ego and re-evaluate why you are so worked up about this. If you think we as CAP don't rate this award- suck it- the SECAF says we do.
I, for one, am grateful to the Us Air Force for this. Thank you.
+10 :clap:
RogueLeader......"nailed it" :clap:
Rogue,
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Rogue Leader,
Very well put Sir! :clap:
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 07, 2016, 05:24:09 PM
The thing that really bugs me about all this, and its not from the Air Force. It's the fact that for YEARS, we- particularly here on CapTalk- have been whining and raging about being more and more distant from the Air Force, and then we become part of the Total Force. People still complained that it was just a publicity stunt or that it was a gesture without meaning. Suddenly, the Air Force goes and proves that they meant more than just words, then suddenly- they can't do that, we couldn't accept it if we wanted to. It seems to me- for the most part, that those arguing the hardest against us for receiving this award are those that are current/former Air Force (not exclusive on either side.)
Can't we just be glad that the Air Force is actively trying to improve the relationship with us. Why can't you be happy that they are working really hard to make things right. If you haven't noticed the Air Force, and the Military in general, have been going through some bad PR at the moment, and they are still taking time and effort when they could ignore us for now until they get themselves straightened out.
Sure, things could be better at the local level, but things take time, and mutual respect on both sides of the house. For those of you with the issues with this award- other than those concerned with details of how worn- check your ego and re-evaluate why you are so worked up about this. If you think we as CAP don't rate this award- suck it- the SECAF says we do.
I, for one, am grateful to the Us Air Force for this. Thank you.
And here, my friends, is the quintessential "mic drop."
Well said, Rogue Leader. We should all take this to heart.
Jack
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 07, 2016, 05:24:09 PM
The thing that really bugs me about all this, and its not from the Air Force. It's the fact that for YEARS, we- particularly here on CapTalk- have been whining and raging about being more and more distant from the Air Force, and then we become part of the Total Force. People still complained that it was just a publicity stunt or that it was a gesture without meaning. Suddenly, the Air Force goes and proves that they meant more than just words, then suddenly- they can't do that, we couldn't accept it if we wanted to. It seems to me- for the most part, that those arguing the hardest against us for receiving this award are those that are current/former Air Force (not exclusive on either side.)
Can't we just be glad that the Air Force is actively trying to improve the relationship with us. Why can't you be happy that they are working really hard to make things right. If you haven't noticed the Air Force, and the Military in general, have been going through some bad PR at the moment, and they are still taking time and effort when they could ignore us for now until they get themselves straightened out.
Sure, things could be better at the local level, but things take time, and mutual respect on both sides of the house. For those of you with the issues with this award- other than those concerned with details of how worn- check your ego and re-evaluate why you are so worked up about this. If you think we as CAP don't rate this award- suck it- the SECAF says we do.
I, for one, am grateful to the Us Air Force for this. Thank you.
Everything RogueLeader said is basically all that needs to be said at this juncture.
Thank you to the U.S. Air Force and SECAF for recognizing the contributions of Civil Air Patrol members in such a public, formal, and meaningful way.
This recognition goes a long way to show that the Air Force truly does have high regard for the members of our organization and their contributions to ours and the Air Force's missions.
Additionally, all CAP members should be very proud (ribbon or no ribbon) that the Air Force has recognized us in this way. The ribbon is immaterial to the weight of the compliment we've been given by our "parent service." Let's be proud and grateful for this; not ungrateful and argumentative.
Quote from: Pylon on October 11, 2016, 02:10:12 PM
Everything RogueLeader said is basically all that needs to be said at this juncture.
Thank you to the U.S. Air Force and SECAF for recognizing the contributions of Civil Air Patrol members in such a public, formal, and meaningful way.
This recognition goes a long way to show that the Air Force truly does have high regard for the members of our organization and their contributions to ours and the Air Force's missions.
Additionally, all CAP members should be very proud (ribbon or no ribbon) that the Air Force has recognized us in this way. The ribbon is immaterial to the weight of the compliment we've been given by our "parent service." Let's be proud and grateful for this; not ungrateful and argumentative.
:clap: :clap:
Well said.
Moving on....
So... How are you Lovely Cranky people doing? This is cool that the AF awarded this to us... and I am sure we will get a "memo" on you know... stuff.
Quote from: Devil Doc on October 28, 2016, 05:54:26 PM
So... How are you Lovely Cranky people doing? This is cool that the AF awarded this to us... and I am sure we will get a "memo" on you know... stuff.
I'm doing fine, particularly after that semi-coherent rant that spilled out faster then my brain could fix, which is faster than what came pouring out (figuratively speaking) of my fingers. I've never really told anybody to ever "suck it" in such plain language. Typically not my style. I have to admit that it did resonate with quite a few members, although it probably stung a few members here on this board that I usually agree with.
In any event, I still hold those members that may/may not care for my opinion on this matter in high regard.
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 28, 2016, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on October 28, 2016, 05:54:26 PM
So... How are you Lovely Cranky people doing? This is cool that the AF awarded this to us... and I am sure we will get a "memo" on you know... stuff.
I'm doing fine, particularly after that semi-coherent rant that spilled out faster then my brain could fix, which is faster than what came pouring out (figuratively speaking) of my fingers. I've never really told anybody to ever "suck it" in such plain language. Typically not my style. I have to admit that it did resonate with quite a few members, although it probably stung a few members here on this board that I usually agree with.
In any event, I still hold those members that may/may not care for my opinion on this matter in high regard.
Toates
Bump. . . Has there been any further word on this ?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 02, 2017, 03:16:21 AM
Bump. . . Has there been any further word on this ?
Don't hold yer breath...
If/when the Air Force makes a decision, it will be well publicized I'm sure. With that said, I highly doubt a decision will come any time soon. This is not even up to a back burner issue for the Air Force yet.
The streamer looks good on the organizational flagpole.
I'd like to see a copy of the actual citation.
Bringing this thread back from the Dead......
Search this forum for the original questions about when we would get ABUs. Forward to when we got ABUs. Consider that the appropriate timeline for an answer.
And I think we'll just shut this for the moment. If someone gets a useful update, report this post, and we'll open it back up.
At the request of a forum member, reopening this topic to cover the recent announcement of the disposition of the AFOEA to Civil Air Patrol.
The memo will be out soon (if not already), but the short version is that CAP members who were members for any part of the original award period (1 OCT 2012 - 31 AUG 16) are authorized the wear of the AFOEA on the USAF-style blue uniform (only). It will be worn above CAP ribbons but below military ribbons. If you're a military member, you're not authorized this award of the AFOEA on your military uniform. (in theory, you might have a double-dip?)
eServices will be updated to reflect this award for those members who meet the qualifications.
More to follow in updates to CAPR 39-3 and CAPM39-1
Great. But kind of crappy to not authorize it for the corporate uniform. We will see what happens later I guess. It is a step forward.
The lapel pin can be worn on the corporates in similar ways that you can wear a lapel pin now.
Its the AF's rule that military ribbons can't be worn on corporate uniforms. That may change, epecially since the AFOEA awarded to CAP is regarded as a "superior to CAP awards but not military" (ie. you can't add an OLC to an AFOEA you might already have in your military rack, you add this between military and CAP ribbons on the blue uniform" and "you don't get military credit for getting this AFOEA " if you're military). But for now, no.
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An announcement showed up on the KY Wing Facespace page with some pictures. The award is now showing up on eServices under Awards
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2018, 03:56:00 PM
At the request of a forum member, reopening this topic to cover the recent announcement of the disposition of the AFOEA to Civil Air Patrol.
The memo will be out soon (if not already), but the short version is that CAP members who were members for any part of the original award period (1 OCT 2012 - 31 AUG 16) are authorized the wear of the AFOEA on the USAF-style blue uniform (only). It will be worn above CAP ribbons but below military ribbons. If you're a military member, you're not authorized this award of the AFOEA on your military uniform. (in theory, you might have a double-dip?)
eServices will be updated to reflect this award for those members who meet the qualifications.
More to follow in updates to CAPR 39-3 and CAPM39-1
Will cadets be authorized to wear it?
per para 3 of the General's upcoming memo: seniors (including 50 year and life members) & cadets with at least one day of active service during the period cited.
Look in your eservices. I was watching Joe Hall upload the update (I think thats what he was doing, at least! :) )
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It is in eServices already.
Well this has now been cheapened.
But does it come with a mini medal for mess dress?
Since the order of precedence is higher than any CAP ribbon, who is authorized to present it? What sort of ceremony is traditional for such an award?
>:D
Quote from: Ned on March 02, 2018, 05:06:13 PM
But does it come with a mini medal for mess dress?
Since the order of precedence is higher than any CAP ribbon, who is authorized to present it? What sort of ceremony is traditional for such an award?
>:D
It is a double-sized medal that can only be presented by an unnamed member of the Executive Branch of the US government. On the mess dress it is worn on the wearer's right just above the CAP medallion.
Also, the medal cannot be purchased from any known source.
:clap:
Is anyone really surprised by this? Did anyone REALLY expect there'd be any love for CAP's second-class citizens?
Quote from: Ned on March 02, 2018, 05:06:13 PM
But does it come with a mini medal for mess dress?
Since the order of precedence is higher than any CAP ribbon, who is authorized to present it? What sort of ceremony is traditional for such an award?
>:D
Military Unit Citations do not come with a medal, only ribbon
Those who earned it should enjoy it any way they can. Wear it, don't wear it, hang it on your Christmas Tree. Because I doubt that there will ever be any more of them. The issue of who gets to wear it under what conditions didn't seem to have been thought out in advance and I can't see anybody being eager to repeat that process.
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Quote from: Ned on March 02, 2018, 05:06:13 PM
But does it come with a mini medal for mess dress?
Since the order of precedence is higher than any CAP ribbon, who is authorized to present it? What sort of ceremony is traditional for such an award?
>:D
Nope, this is one of those "Ribbon Only" awards, no medal.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 03, 2018, 12:13:30 AM
Those who earned it should enjoy it any way they can. Wear it, don't wear it, hang it on your Christmas Tree. Because I doubt that there will ever be any more of them. The issue of who gets to wear it under what conditions didn't seem to have been thought out in advance and I can't see anybody being eager to repeat that process.
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The requirements of who gets were thought out:
They are: Any body who was a member during the period 1 Oct 2012 thru 31 Aug 2016.
The citation/award can only be worn on a military uniform. If you can't or opt not to wear a military style uniform, you have the option of wearing the lapel(buttonhole) pin.
Same rules as wearing military ribbons with the G/W uniforms.
Quote from: Mustang on March 02, 2018, 05:45:08 PM
Is anyone really surprised by this? Did anyone REALLY expect there'd be any love for CAP's second-class citizens?
You have that right. The AF can take their doo dad and put it where the light doesn't shine.
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 03, 2018, 02:03:32 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 03, 2018, 12:13:30 AM
Those who earned it should enjoy it any way they can. Wear it, don't wear it, hang it on your Christmas Tree. Because I doubt that there will ever be any more of them. The issue of who gets to wear it under what conditions didn't seem to have been thought out in advance and I can't see anybody being eager to repeat that process.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The requirements of who gets were thought out:
They are: Any body who was a member during the period 1 Oct 2012 thru 31 Aug 2016.
The citation/award can only be worn on a military uniform. If you can't or opt not to wear a military style uniform, you have the option of wearing the lapel(buttonhole) pin.
Same rules as wearing military ribbons with the G/W uniforms.
I beg to differ re: this being thought out. As evidence, I submit...the calendar.
The award was announced in September, 2016. Pretty much within about five minutes of that, the question was asked: "Can we wear it? Who? And how?"
And there was no immediate answer. It took 18 months for the answer.
I think awarding it was well intentioned. I'm quite pleased that it was awarded. But deciding who wears it, if anyone wears it, and under what conditions, should have been done before the announcement. Which leads me to believe that it wasn't thought all the way through.
And...the final decision reflects the difficulties of making that decision. We now have a military decoration that is military enough to wear on the civilian version of a military uniform, but not civilian enough to wear in the civilian uniform, which has to have unusual wear instructions to be worn with the same award received by military members who might have received it in USAF service, but which isn't military enough to wear on military uniforms despite it being the same award presented to military members...it makes my head spin. Especially considering how many members have earned it and will never get to wear it.
It would have been much easier to award the National Commander's Unit Citation to everyone, maybe with a special attachment indicating that SECAF had approved it or something.
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As a fat and fuzzy, I REALLY don't understand why people are so upset that military ribbons can't be worn on our fat and fuzzy uniforms.
Is there anything that Eclipse, PHall and asdp DON'T know? :)
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brombomb/
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 07, 2016, 05:24:09 PM
The thing that really bugs me about all this, and its not from the Air Force. It's the fact that for YEARS, we- particularly here on CapTalk- have been whining and raging about being more and more distant from the Air Force, and then we become part of the Total Force. People still complained that it was just a publicity stunt or that it was a gesture without meaning. Suddenly, the Air Force goes and proves that they meant more than just words, then suddenly- they can't do that, we couldn't accept it if we wanted to. It seems to me- for the most part, that those arguing the hardest against us for receiving this award are those that are current/former Air Force (not exclusive on either side.)
Can't we just be glad that the Air Force is actively trying to improve the relationship with us. Why can't you be happy that they are working really hard to make things right. If you haven't noticed the Air Force, and the Military in general, have been going through some bad PR at the moment, and they are still taking time and effort when they could ignore us for now until they get themselves straightened out.
Sure, things could be better at the local level, but things take time, and mutual respect on both sides of the house. For those of you with the issues with this award- other than those concerned with details of how worn- check your ego and re-evaluate why you are so worked up about this. If you think we as CAP don't rate this award- suck it- the SECAF says we do.
I, for one, am grateful to the Us Air Force for this. Thank you.
Spend a career in the Hospitality field like I have and you'll quickly realize that some people are just NEVER happy no matter how hard you try to please them.
I'm thankful for the award. And I don't even qualify for it because I wasn't a member during the period!
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 03, 2018, 04:30:15 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 03, 2018, 02:03:32 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 03, 2018, 12:13:30 AM
Those who earned it should enjoy it any way they can. Wear it, don't wear it, hang it on your Christmas Tree. Because I doubt that there will ever be any more of them. The issue of who gets to wear it under what conditions didn't seem to have been thought out in advance and I can't see anybody being eager to repeat that process.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The requirements of who gets were thought out:
They are: Any body who was a member during the period 1 Oct 2012 thru 31 Aug 2016.
The citation/award can only be worn on a military uniform. If you can't or opt not to wear a military style uniform, you have the option of wearing the lapel(buttonhole) pin.
Same rules as wearing military ribbons with the G/W uniforms.
I beg to differ re: this being thought out. As evidence, I submit...the calendar.
The award was announced in September, 2016. Pretty much within about five minutes of that, the question was asked: "Can we wear it? Who? And how?"
And there was no immediate answer. It took 18 months for the answer.
I think awarding it was well intentioned. I'm quite pleased that it was awarded. But deciding who wears it, if anyone wears it, and under what conditions, should have been done before the announcement. Which leads me to believe that it wasn't thought all the way through.
And...the final decision reflects the difficulties of making that decision. We now have a military decoration that is military enough to wear on the civilian version of a military uniform, but not civilian enough to wear in the civilian uniform, which has to have unusual wear instructions to be worn with the same award received by military members who might have received it in USAF service, but which isn't military enough to wear on military uniforms despite it being the same award presented to military members...it makes my head spin. Especially considering how many members have earned it and will never get to wear it.
It would have been much easier to award the National Commander's Unit Citation to everyone, maybe with a special attachment indicating that SECAF had approved it or something.
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It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time." It makes perfect sense to me that it goes AFTER all your military decorations, but BEFORE all your CAP decorations. It makes perfect sense to me that it isn't authorized for wear on any Corporate Uniforms because NO military decorations are authorized on those uniforms. It makes sense to me that if you are current or former AF and were awarded the decoration during "AF time" and you are eligible for this award, you wear two separate ribbons, at different places on your rack, instead of attaching a device to the one you earned on "AF time."
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:43:34 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brombomb/
The question was asked and answered earlier, whereas posting personal information could be seen as doxxing (if I've my terminology right)
Something to ponder.
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Quote from: DakRadz on March 03, 2018, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:43:34 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brombomb/
The question was asked and answered earlier, whereas posting personal information could be seen as doxxing (if I've my terminology right)
Something to ponder.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Plus wrong topic.
Quote from: DakRadz on March 03, 2018, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:43:34 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 02, 2016, 06:23:50 AM
Quote from: NIN on October 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 02, 2016, 05:17:40 AM
Link is broken. Here it is: http://www.snopes.com/POLITICS/military/airforce.asp
I was asleep they day they taught internet :) Thanks.
Whatever happened to the cadet after that incident? Did the cadet stay at USAFA? Did he actually receive a commission? What was the afterlife for this?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brombomb/
The question was asked and answered earlier, whereas posting personal information could be seen as doxxing (if I've my terminology right)
Something to ponder.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Doxxing usually doesn't include information garnered by a simple Google search.....
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Official announcement: https://www.cap.news/air-force-organizational-excellence-award-ribbon-okd-for-wear/
(https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/28515869_1786909801331300_1033189441823839817_o.jpg?oh=2c7cd2ba6c6763574d8241709dac5fd8&oe=5B12286F)
Wear instructions: https://admin.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Interim_Change_Letter__to_CAPR_393__56632241FA858.pdf
For those so inclined...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Air-Force-Lapel-Pin-Organizational-Excellence-Military-Award-NEW-Authentic/253249751310?hash=item3af6dc890e:g:CFMAAOSw8zdaA7Bp:sc:USPSFirstClass!60143!US!-1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Air-Force-Organizational-Excellence-Award-lapel-pin-and-service-ribbon/381914393243?hash=item58ebdf2a9b:g:tPYAAOSwaeRZEIF~
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
I was able to buy almost enough ribbons at the BX today for our cadets who will receive this. $1.00 each versus $1.40 from Vanguard. I found that I had a couple still in the package from when I was on active duty (probably from the mid-80s). At that time they were 20 cents each.
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
Because you only want to look at it from your perspective.
Wear instructions for corporate combinations:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/d778ca8ab9e430e4526961e6ba3a1ca0.jpg)
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
So question. If you were ever on an AFAM during the period, wouldn't that count as being on AF time?
Quote from: Ozzy on March 04, 2018, 12:27:38 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
So question. If you were ever on an AFAM during the period, wouldn't that count as being on AF time?
You're still not a member of the USAF and you're still performing your CAP job. So no, I don't think it would.
Quote from: Fester on March 04, 2018, 02:13:42 AM
Quote from: Ozzy on March 04, 2018, 12:27:38 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
So question. If you were ever on an AFAM during the period, wouldn't that count as being on AF time?
You're still not a member of the USAF and you're still performing your CAP job. So no, I don't think it would.
Total Force says otherwise. If you are on a AFAM that's on AF time and CAP members are considered Airmen.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 04, 2018, 03:05:41 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 04, 2018, 02:13:42 AM
Quote from: Ozzy on March 04, 2018, 12:27:38 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
So question. If you were ever on an AFAM during the period, wouldn't that count as being on AF time?
You're still not a member of the USAF and you're still performing your CAP job. So no, I don't think it would.
Total Force says otherwise. If you are on a AFAM that's on AF time and CAP members are considered Airmen.
I mean, it's been 20 years since I've participated on an AFAM. Do they now enlist you or commission you for an AFAM?
No. So you're STILL not a member of the AF. You ARE an auxiliarist. One can be both an auxiliarist and a member of the Total Force.
Quote from: Fester on March 04, 2018, 03:59:30 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 04, 2018, 03:05:41 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 04, 2018, 02:13:42 AM
Quote from: Ozzy on March 04, 2018, 12:27:38 AM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: Mustang on March 03, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: Fester on March 03, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, it's a military ribbon. No, you didn't earn it on "AF time." So, to me, it makes perfect sense that current AF members don't get to wear it on their "AF" uniform because it wasn't earned on "AF time."
As opposed to, say, this one, which by definition isn't earned on "AF time" either:
http://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421889/military-outstanding-volunteer-service-medal/
Even this makes sense to me. You would have earned the AFMOUVSM as part of your "AF Time" and therefore, would wear it on your AF uniform.
I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
So question. If you were ever on an AFAM during the period, wouldn't that count as being on AF time?
You're still not a member of the USAF and you're still performing your CAP job. So no, I don't think it would.
Total Force says otherwise. If you are on a AFAM that's on AF time and CAP members are considered Airmen.
I mean, it's been 20 years since I've participated on an AFAM. Do they now enlist you or commission you for an AFAM?
No. So you're STILL not a member of the AF. You ARE an auxiliarist. One can be both an auxiliarist and a member of the Total Force.
You don't get it. That is not what was asked. But facts and reality are something your ilk don't comprehend.
Is the horse dead enough now?
Is a full size and miniature medal available for the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award?
Quote from: Disenchanted on March 04, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
Is a full size and miniature medal available for the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award?
No.
I don't see the hub-bub with this award. I have several AF unit awards so this just seems "eh" to me. If I was eligible cool, if not, that's cool too.
Quote from: Disenchanted on March 04, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
Is a full size and miniature medal available for the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award?
No, this is a "ribbon only" award. Just like the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award and the Presidential Unit Citation.
Quote from: GaryVC on March 03, 2018, 11:34:52 PM
I was able to buy almost enough ribbons at the BX today for our cadets who will receive this. $1.00 each versus $1.40 from Vanguard. I found that I had a couple still in the package from when I was on active duty (probably from the mid-80s). At that time they were 20 cents each.
Veterans can also order them online for that price through shopmyexchange if you're signed up and so inclined.
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:34:12 PM
Yeah, what was that First Core Value? Oh yeah, Integrity First! But, I guess it's good to be the Queen. :clap:
Do you come here purely to sh#tpost and rant? None of what you posted makes any sense at all.
You sound like a lunatic.
If the USAF desires to recognize CAP, they can - this is a very appropriate means to do it.
If a Service Secretary desires to issue ... say the Boy Scouts an award, they sure can.
CAP is a part of the USAF, they spend quite a bit of a stretched budget upon CAP... if the USAF Staff wants to dole out some awards?
They can absolutely do that.
Quote from: J2H on March 04, 2018, 04:24:17 PM
I don't see the hub-bub with this award. I have several AF unit awards so this just seems "eh" to me. If I was eligible cool, if not, that's cool too.
The hub-bub is that for years many members especially a few on this board have cried and moaned about not having a better relationship with the USAF. Then when the AF modified "Total Force" to include CAP they were thrilled and then moaned again because it didn't entail what they thought it would.
Now you have the AF awarding this award to CAP and you have folks moaning because it can't be worn on corp uniforms. It can be worn on AF style but not corp so enter the whole "Class" crying about that and that it took forever for NHQ to decide the criteria for wear.
They AF has recognized and given CAP major kudos with these events but you still have folks who think that being in CAP should grant you the same benefits as actually being in the military.
It's akin to giving an inch and they want a foot and etc..
Quote from: CAPLTC on March 04, 2018, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:34:12 PM
Yeah, what was that First Core Value? Oh yeah, Integrity First! But, I guess it's good to be the Queen. :clap:
Do you come here purely to sh#tpost and rant? None of what you posted makes any sense at all.
You sound like a lunatic.
If the USAF desires to recognize CAP, they can - this is a very appropriate means to do it.
If a Service Secretary desires to issue ... say the Boy Scouts an award, they sure can.
CAP is a part of the USAF, they spend quite a bit of a stretched budget upon CAP... if the USAF Staff wants to dole out some awards?
They can absolutely do that.
Only if they issued a waiver to the AFI, which they can do if they wish. I can only go by what is published in the AFI.
Quote from: PHall on March 04, 2018, 06:19:40 PM
Quote from: CAPLTC on March 04, 2018, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2016, 10:34:12 PM
Yeah, what was that First Core Value? Oh yeah, Integrity First! But, I guess it's good to be the Queen. :clap:
Do you come here purely to sh#tpost and rant? None of what you posted makes any sense at all.
You sound like a lunatic.
If the USAF desires to recognize CAP, they can - this is a very appropriate means to do it.
If a Service Secretary desires to issue ... say the Boy Scouts an award, they sure can.
CAP is a part of the USAF, they spend quite a bit of a stretched budget upon CAP... if the USAF Staff wants to dole out some awards?
They can absolutely do that.
Only if they issued a waiver to the AFI, which they can do if they wish. I can only go by what is published in the AFI.
Careful you might offend someone's sensibilities with talking about abiding by regs. >:D
Quote from: SarDragon on March 04, 2018, 04:18:29 AM
Is the horse dead enough now?
YES :clap: :clap: :clap:
AFOEA decals coming soon. May do some lapel pins too.
>:D
Quote from: Stonewall on March 05, 2018, 12:31:17 AM
AFOEA decals coming soon. May do some lapel pins too.
>:D
And baseball hats! We need AFOEA baseball hats!
Quote from: Ned on March 05, 2018, 01:35:34 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on March 05, 2018, 12:31:17 AM
AFOEA decals coming soon. May do some lapel pins too.
>:D
And baseball hats! We need AFOEA baseball hats!
Drinkware
License plate frames?
Quote from: SarDragon on March 05, 2018, 01:53:03 AM
License plate frames?
Window stickers.
But hey, finally got my military ribbon. Hearing aids and all!
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Some replies in this thread reminded me of a quote from Tony Soprano: "She's like a woman with a Virginia Ham under her arm, crying the blues because she has no bread."
Maybe those of us who are fat/fuzzy should copy some Spaatzen with their diamonds. Wear it hidden on the back of a lapel or elsewhere on our spiffy white shirt. I'm thinking of maybe under the pocket flap?
Hey, the lapel pin, depending on type of pin on the back, would be easier to conceal under the pocket of my corp. aviator shirt.
If "the ribbon" is prohibited on all corp. uniforms how can the lapel pin be worn on the on the corp blazer with nameplate and corp seal since that would make it a corp. uniform. I guess the poo bahs figure it will be so small no one will notice. What a cluster. :o ::) ::)
Quote from: PA Guy on March 05, 2018, 09:48:01 AM
Hey, the lapel pin, depending on type of pin on the back, would be easier to conceal under the pocket of my corp. aviator shirt.
If "the ribbon" is prohibited on all corp. uniforms how can the lapel pin be worn on the on the corp blazer with nameplate and corp seal since that would make it a corp. uniform. I guess the poo bahs figure it will be so small no one will notice. What a cluster. :o ::) ::)
You are allowed one "pin" on the corporate uniform for the lapel.
39-1 Section 4.2.3.3
4.2.3.3. Lapel Pins. One lapel pin of choice, in good taste, may be worn on either the left or
the right lapel of the blazer at the discretion of the member.
Let's see now - we've had information, confrontation, humour, flames, an intermission, and a final act. It is now time to bring down the curtain on this.
Click.