saluting question

[Woodsy]

This question was posed to me, and I did not know how to answer...

When operating on a mission, if a member is placed under the direct supervision of a police/fire officer superior in rank to said CAP member, such as a fire LT, Capt, chief, etc, is that member required to salute that officer?  We have many situations where CAP assets are placed inside an EOC to man a radio or supplement the mission base staff.  What is the proper way of doing things when interacting with non-military, but not quite "civilian" agencies?

[RogueLeader]

No. We only are required to salute real military and cap officers superior in grade.

[Eclipse]

Police and Fire only salute in the most formal of circumstances like graduations, funerals, or receiving a decoration, and even then it's not consistent across the board.

"Sirs" and similar never hurt anybody, of course, and its always proper to address someone by grade (i.e. Lt. Doe, Sgt Smith, Officer Johnson), however
good luck at anything over Captain.  Once you wander into oak leaves, all bets are off as to their title and position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_ranks_of_the_United_States

[arajca]

With fire, it's a little easier:
1 bugle - Lt
2 parallel bugles - Capt
2 - 5 crossed bugles - Chief

Of course, if they're wearing a badge, their grade is generally on the badge.

[PA Guy]

If you saluted most most law enforcement and fire officers they would look at you with a weird look and then crack up laughing or ask you what the h### you were doing.  A simple professional greeting is sufficient.

[Eclipse]

^ Heh...you might get tased, or worse.  Most people raising a hand in the vicinity of a police officer are taking a swing, and
most of the "salutes" they get consist of only one finger.

[bosshawk]

I have worked a number of large CD operations in CA, with multiple LE agencies represented.  These were usually run by one controlling agency.  Lots of brass around most of the time, including the President's Drug Czar.

My sole observation was that everyone used first names exclusively.  It is too busy to bother with titles and certainly no thought of saluting.  Only CAP would be concerned with such niceities.  The primary focus was getting the job done with the minimum of muss and fuss.

In fact, a lot of the same players were involved in multiple years of these operations and that included the Air Guard, Army Guard and the Marine Reserves, as well as the DEA.

[Flying Pig]

Heck, in LE we dont even salute each other.  Except, like what was stated earlier, in ceremonies.  But its usually for the national anthem and such.  We arent actually saluting each other. 

My Sheriff wears 4 stars.  No salute.  In Fire and LE, the ranks arent uniform and mean different things.  They just use the same symbols.  In my department the Sheriff wears 4 stars, Under Sheriff 3 stars, Asst Sheriff 2 stars.  We dont have any position with 1 star.  Below that is Captain and then Lt.  We are an 1100 man agency covering 6100 sq miles with almost 1mil residents.

The dinky little 2 sq mile city 10 miles away that has 15 officers total and population of 5000, the Chief wears 5 stars in a circle like Eisenhower.  Another local city the Chief wears one star and his Deputy wears a LTC oak leaf.  yes, you show them respect when you greet, "Hi Chief"  "Hello Sir" etc etc.  But we dont walk past and salute.

Now......that being said, I have heard and seen in states particularly back east, Troopers can be very formal.  I have heard for example that the NM State Police and MA State Police are VERY formal amongst each other but that has no bearing on anyone outside the organization.

Any state that has "Troopers" who live in "Barracks" is just cool anyway

[lordmonar]

With fire, it's a little easier:
1 bugle - Lt
2 parallel bugles - Capt
2 - 5 crossed bugles - Chief

Of course, if they're wearing a badge, their grade is generally on the badge.

Not all FD's use that badge system.

I have seen multiple bugles....up to six for large departments.

[SARDOC]

With fire, it's a little easier:
1 bugle - Lt
2 parallel bugles - Capt
2 - 5 crossed bugles - Chief

Of course, if they're wearing a badge, their grade is generally on the badge.

That changes by department too.  Not always consistent.

[Woodsy]

With fire, it's a little easier:
1 bugle - Lt
2 parallel bugles - Capt
2 - 5 crossed bugles - Chief

Of course, if they're wearing a badge, their grade is generally on the badge.

That changes by department too.  Not always consistent.

The local fire/rescue (a rather large metro department) where I live is crazy when it comes to insignia....

bugles, ladders, axes, and a few other things I believe, depending on what you do.

Engine companies, ladder crews, paramedics, etc. all wear different insignia, though they may be equal in rank. 

[Major Lord]

You should only salute them if you are trying to draw sniper fire...

Major Lord

[Woodsy]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Your answers pretty much echo my sentiments, however, I did not want to answer his question until I had a second opinion. 

[Equinox]

No. We only are required to salute real military and cap officers superior in grade.

Don't forget Medal of Honor Recipients...and Barack.

[Major Lord]

I won't try to pretend I did not notice the MOH recipient if I should pass him in the hallway.....

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

No. We only are required to salute real military and cap officers superior in grade.

Don't forget Medal of Honor Recipients...and Barack.

That would be The President.

I don't think you referred to the last one as George, so please have the proper respect for the Office of the President that it deserves.

[Extremepredjudice]

No. We only are required to salute real military and cap officers superior in grade.

Don't forget Medal of Honor Recipients...and Barack.

That would be The President.

I don't think you referred to the last one as George, so please have the proper respect for the Office of the President that it deserves.

Sir, I believe the correct term of address is Mr. President. First used by President Washington.

[Майор Хаткевич]

"Don't forget Medal of Honor Recipients...and the President".

I was correcting his blatant disrespect.

[RogueLeader]

No. We only are required to salute real military and cap officers superior in grade.

Don't forget Medal of Honor Recipients...and Barack.

Pleaded cite any CAP regulation, pamphlet etc. that requires us to salute the CiC. Cap chain of command ends with the national commander. Whether you SHOULD is another question.

[Extremepredjudice]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/683/~/who-initiates-the-salute

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

[RogueLeader]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/683/~/who-initiates-the-salute

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

Knowlegebase is not regulatory.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Pleaded cite any CAP regulation, pamphlet etc. that requires us to salute the CiC. Cap chain of command ends with the national commander. Whether you SHOULD is another question.

Since you included pamphlet...

CAPP 151 page 3 "What follows is a brief tutorial in how to render Air Force-style
customs and courtesies properly and proudly. This guide focuses on
the fundamentals. For more information, see the Air Force Drill &
Ceremonies Manual, available at the CAP website."

While the link for AFMAN 36-2203 Drill and Ceremonies on the CAP website is broken. It can be found on the web.

AFMAN 36-2203 para 3.6.7 "Civilians may be saluted by persons in uniform. The President of the United States, as
Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, is always accorded the honor of a salute."

[lordmonar]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/683/~/who-initiates-the-salute

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

Knowlegebase is not regulatory.

Dude the KB response included the relevant publications!

[Eclipse]

Dude the KB response included the relevant publications!

I was going to post the same thing, except the verbiage in the KB post isn't actually in CAPP 3 or 151.

In fact, I could not find the source of that text anywhere other than the KB.

[Extremepredjudice]

Dude the KB response included the relevant publications!

Sir dude, I know, I know...  :angel: :angel:

[RogueLeader]

Pleaded cite any CAP regulation, pamphlet etc. that requires us to salute the CiC. Cap chain of command ends with the national commander. Whether you SHOULD is another question.

Since you included pamphlet...

CAPP 151 page 3 "What follows is a brief tutorial in how to render Air Force-style
customs and courtesies properly and proudly. This guide focuses on
the fundamentals. For more information, see the Air Force Drill &
Ceremonies Manual, available at the CAP website."

While the link for AFMAN 36-2203 Drill and Ceremonies on the CAP website is broken. It can be found on the web.

AFMAN 36-2203 para 3.6.7 "Civilians may be saluted by persons in uniform. The President of the United States, as
Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, is always accorded the honor of a salute."

Note the word "may". May is not the same as shall or will. CAPP 151 tells us to practice customs and courtesies. It does NOT say that compliance with AFMAN 36-2203 is mandatory.

Again, whether it should is another question.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

No may in the line about the President.

CAPP 151 does include

"Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute."

"When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves."

"What follows is a brief tutorial in how to render Air Force-style customs and courtesies properly and proudly. This guide focuses on
the fundamentals. For more information, see the Air Force Drill & Ceremonies Manual, available at the CAP website."

The publication states we will salute. It tells us it is presenting a brief version on how and when and references an other publication for more information. It's not written in the style of IAW AFMAN 36-2203, but pamphlets are in a more informal style.

Would I like it to be clearer? Yes. If you find this type of analysis interesting try to find a regulation citation that makes insubordination a violation.

Now if I actually had to deal with a complaint that Lt Jones failed to salute the President while in the AF Style Uniform......

[Jquick]

So, on the questions of rendering of a formal salute to those of higher grade and office.  One it is good form, i.e. sets a good example for everyone in the organization.  With this being said, the only side of our house that truly and diligently follows any semblance of military C &C is the cadet programs.  As a cadet, I would render a salute to a tricycle, so long as said tricycle had a star or bird on it.  Now, as I got older, entered and exited the military, and became a firefighter, my attitude towards saluting and general C &C began to change.   I now work as a Fire Company officer, i.e. Fire Lieutenant.  As such, I no longer believe that the act of rendering a salute carries as much weight, for me as an adult.  Rendering a salute to me as a fire officer, would probably be met with a proper return; however, would also spark a discussion on "while it is appreciated, it is not necessary to render said salute."  I am however the exception to this rule, as most fire officers would simply look at you with a perplexed look and walk away, similarly to the way we would look at some odd ball in a star trek uniform that demanded a salute from us, because they were an imaginary Starfleet captain. 

It must be stated, that we as a national agency, fall victims to our own misrepresentation.   Being that most of the external agencies we interact with are not military;  it is my contention that both the wear of BDU's and gross over usage of military C & C during these interactions have only gone to reinforce the perception that "these clowns don't need to be here."  I have worked with CAP personnel as a Fire Officer, being as I was a member for over 25 years, and remain close friends with active personnel in the upper atmosphere of their respective wings,  I have seen both sides of the coin.  I have sent personnel home from my scene for complete inaptitude, I did this to prevent further damage to CAPs image, transversely, I have utilized those personnel who were in the know, and promoted a positive image of CAP.

The point I am trying to make is this, while we are under the umbrella and funding of the USAF, we are not the military.  We are a civilian, as the name implies, auxiliary of the AF.  The agencies we are working with are not judging us based on our ability to render salutes, they are judging us on our presentation, action, and work performance.   So here is a good rule of thumb, render salutes to military personnel, POTUS, and MOH recipients when it is appropriate.   During a SAREX, on a mission, or during operations, it is not appropriate.  Believe me, if the POTUS arrived on my fire scene, while fire ground operations were on going, I would tell him to get back in his car, an leave me be.  The same applies in this situation, if we are managing a mission, or operation, that is not the time or the place to worry about rendering a salute to anyone, and if the person you did not render said salute to becomes indignant about this, believe me they are not there to help the mission, they are there to hinder it and should be asked to bounce.

[bflynn]

Of course, what I find humorous about this is that active duty personnel are taught the exact opposite...that CAP members are civilians and therefore you do not initiate or return salutes.  I remember the exact question coming up during basic training.  

That's not to say that I probably didn't salute a CAP person at some time in the past, just out of confusion as to what country's uniform had maroon shoulder boards...lots of foreign officers around Norfolk.

Overall, I'm with JQuick.

[Eclipse]

...it is my contention that both the wear of BDU's and gross over usage of military C & C during these interactions have only gone to reinforce the perception that "these clowns don't need to be here."

We are a paramilitary auxiliary of a military service.  It is our lack of consistent adherence to military customs, courtesies and professional attitude that impacts our reputation negatively, and generally it is those members who sign their name on a piece of paper that is very specific about the expectations, and then decide that those expectations don't apply to them for "whatever" reason, that cause us the most issues.

So here is a good rule of thumb, render salutes to military personnel, POTUS, and MOH recipients when it is appropriate.   

Correct.  And "when" = "always"

During a SAREX, on a mission, or during operations, it is not appropriate.  Believe me, if the POTUS arrived on my fire scene, while fire ground operations were on going, I would tell him to get back in his car, an leave me be.  The same applies in this situation, if we are managing a mission, or operation, that is not the time or the place to worry about rendering a salute to anyone, and if the person you did not render said salute to becomes indignant about this, believe me they are not there to help the mission, they are there to hinder it and should be asked to bounce.

Incorrect.  The expectation of courtesies does not evaporate because you're "busy doing real work". If anything, that is when they are truly needed.

[Eclipse]

as I was a member for over 25 years,

So you are not currently a member, correct?

[bflynn]

Incorrect.  The expectation of courtesies does not evaporate because you're "busy doing real work". If anything, that is when they are truly needed.

Are you suggesting someone working a disaster should stop what they're doing to render courtesy because courtesy to a senior ranking official is more important than the work?

[Eclipse]

Incorrect.  The expectation of courtesies does not evaporate because you're "busy doing real work". If anything, that is when they are truly needed.

Are you suggesting someone working a disaster should stop what they're doing to render courtesy because courtesy to a senior ranking official is more important than the work?

No, but thank you for making my point.

[krnlpanick]

Are you suggesting someone working a disaster should stop what they're doing to render courtesy because courtesy to a senior ranking official is more important than the work?

(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.

I think this covers the situation pretty well - should you salute in that situation, no; should you render courtesy in that situation, yes. If you are busy doing something and can not acknowledge a senior officer as they approach, a simple head nod of acknowledgement is adequate. If they are sticking around, you can always give a head nod, finish what you are doing, then render proper courtesy. I highly doubt there are many officers that would judge you for this. Also, note item (c) in this list. And lastly, the senior ranking officer can always designate an area to be a "no salute" area.

[SarDragon]

Somewhere in my learning (don't recall if it was CAP or Navy, but it worked both places), I was told to render a salute and appropriate verbal greeting upon the first meeting of the day, and then go on about my business. It was neither necessary, nor desired, for a salute to be exchanged every time someone walked past an officer who had already been greeted.

[lordmonar]

There are tons and tons of "off the books" rules for C&C in a work-a-day enviornment.

I have lived under:

Don't salute in the field.....period.
Don't salute on the flight line.
Don't call the room to attention for anyone but the commander and O-6 and above.
You don't have to come to attention if you are working on equipment.
"At ease, I'll be in the area all day"....i.e. salute once and then ignore it for the rest of the day.

Then there is the other side of the coin.
Salute the POTUS.
Salute the Vice POTUS
Salute the SECDEF
Salute the SECAF
Salute MoH receipiants.

Bottom line here....is that it is CUSTOMS....that is tradition versus regulations.  Ain't no body going to get UCMJed or Kicked out of CAP for not saluteing the POTUS or a MoH winner.  Or for not saluting the National Commander or your squadron commander for that matter. 

I can't beleive that is post when from a more or less okay question to a "please cite that you got to salute MoH winners"........geeze. 

[bflynn]

Incorrect.  The expectation of courtesies does not evaporate because you're "busy doing real work". If anything, that is when they are truly needed.

Are you suggesting someone working a disaster should stop what they're doing to render courtesy because courtesy to a senior ranking official is more important than the work?

No, but thank you for making my point.

Ok, now I'm more confused.  What was your point?  Because it alomost sounds now like you're saying that courtesy can be skipped when it's an impairment to critical work...and until now I was sure you were saying that you need to stop what you're doing to render a salute.

BTW, did you miss that the example you were giving this for involved a fireman?

[Eclipse]

Incorrect.  The expectation of courtesies does not evaporate because you're "busy doing real work". If anything, that is when they are truly needed.

Are you suggesting someone working a disaster should stop what they're doing to render courtesy because courtesy to a senior ranking official is more important than the work?

If you have to "stop what you are doing" to render a salute, use the word "sir", or address people by their proper grade or title, you are not likely of much use in anything that would be classified as an "emergency".

However you made my point exactly, in that there is always some lame "excuse" for not comporting yourself as expected - "People are dying in the streets...", "I don't have time for that...", "Zombies will know which brains are the tastiest if you salute superiors..." etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseum.

It's always appropriate, never too much trouble, and the attention to detail and situation that C&C engenders helps people who do not work well under pressure stay focused and grounded.

[Private Investigator]

... Now, as I got older, entered and exited the military, and became a firefighter, my attitude towards saluting and general C &C began to change.   I now work as a Fire Company officer, i.e. Fire Lieutenant.  As such, I no longer believe that the act of rendering a salute carries as much weight, for me as an adult.  Rendering a salute to me as a fire officer, would probably be met with a proper return; however, would also spark a discussion on "while it is appreciated, it is not necessary to render said salute."  I am however the exception to this rule, as most fire officers would simply look at you with a perplexed look and walk away, ...

I am a retired policeman, 25 years in uniform. Police Officers who were Veterans saluted each other for various reasons. 

Semper Fi and Semper Cop is always going to be cool   

[bflynn]

there is always some lame "excuse" for not comporting yourself as expected - "People are dying in the streets

I think we have different opinions of what is lame, critical and emergency.  Or we're mentally using different examples.

Human life trumps everything. 

Police Officers who were Veterans saluted each other for various reasons. 

As do many veterans.

[Eclipse]

Human life trumps everything. 

Not relevant to this discussion, and rarely relevant to the CAP paradigm, but raised as an ad hominem regularly by people
who "can't be bothered".

Again, if you are so limited in your ability to make good decisions, and have to single-stream your consciousness at a level where
you cannot discern the difference between how you comport yourself in the ICP and whether you should salute before applying pressure to a bleeding artery, then you're not much use in ES.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think we have different opinions of what is lame, critical and emergency.  Or we're mentally using different examples.

Human life trumps everything. 

Confused with the 5 post troll. Please ignore. Lol.