NCO promotions and appointment for non-prior service members.

[lordmonar]

I have an idea for an NCO corps...

First we must identify their duties....why do we need NCOs?

Since there can be no caste division of "workers" vs. "managers" in volunteer organization, we don't.

Col's will still be emptying the trash cans at unit meetings whether we have NCO's or not.

You missed my point....the NCO's would have a job....just like the Admin Officer, Ops Officer, and Logistics Officer.  His job would to teach the "military side" of CAP....specificly drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies, military heritage and traditions.  The would generally fall under/with the Professional Development Officer.

Right now this instance...I agree with you (and I stated in my original post) that there is no need for NCOs.  We could use them in the training role IF.....IF we made such military training mandatory for our officer professional development.

CAP NCOs would not...I SAY AGAIN...would not fulfill the traditional role NCOs have in the real military for the simple fact that we have no airman to train and supervise.

[RickFranz]

I have an idea for an NCO corps...

First we must identify their duties....why do we need NCOs?

The duties of a CAP NCO would be to conduct "military" training to the Officers and Cadets.  They would be the Uniform Nazis and the Customs and Courtesies Police and the Drill Masters.

We will have to include these skills as part of ALL SM training.  I.e. all officers will have to pass the Curry Ribbon Drill test for Level II.

Progression for the NCO's will be as such.

New guy who decides to go NCO/prior enlisted any service.  Wear the SrA stripe upon completing Level I.

Technician rating will be to complete the Wright Brothers leadership and drill test (or something similar).

This rates them a SSgt after an appropriate TIG.

Senior rating will be complete level II and pass a comprehensive drill test, conduct training classes...that sort of thing...this gets them TSgt.

Master rating will be complete Level III more instructing and a major serious drill exam.

SMSgt will only be MASTER Rated NCOs at the group level.
CMSgts will only be MASTER Rated NCOs at the wing and above level.

Units will only be authorized one First Sergeant (this is a position) who must be MASTER RATED....no master rated NCOs...no first sergeant.

Groups, wings, regions will be allowed one.....one first sergeant at each level...but there can be multiple SMSgts/CMSgts on their staff.

One....Command Chief at national level.

Prior NCOs can jump up to their current rank up to MSgts.....just as we do with retired 0-6s...retired E-9's must get their Master Rating and serve at the appropriate levels to earn back their rockers.

Notice what I said first.....this should only happen if we also make an strong effort to require all CAP officers to learn a basic level of drill and ceremonies.

This is just a thumbnail sketch of what the program could look like....if you have details....let's hear them.

Flame away.

No flame, just a question.  Would this program be like the cadet side where you start at the bottom (Sgt/SrA) and work your way up to Lt. Col.?  Or would it be once an NCO always an NCO? 

Then we would need to ask, what would be the trigger to have person a go into the NCO training side vs. the Officer side.  I guess that could be the 4 years of college.

[O-Rex]

It's a noble idea, but as some folks already stated, given our current structure, it looks like a solution looking for a need to fill . . . . .

[isuhawkeye]

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think the main reason why CAP calls it a Sergeant is because E-4 for other services is an NCO, whereas for the AF it is not.  Makes sense to me, though YMMV

An E-4 Specialist in the Army is NOT an NCO.  An E-4 Corporal, however, is.

The AF used to have a similar system in place for E-4's to be given NCO authority, but the no longer do so.

[lordmonar]

I agree that this is really a solution with out a problem....

I was just thinking out loud.....IF CAP wanted to "reblue" our members and IF CAP wanted to develope a team of people to take on that task, then we could develope a workable, sensable system to get there.

RickFranz....the NCO ranks would be more like a job than a ranks system.

You would not start as an NCO and move up and then switch over to being an officer....but you could.  Likewise an officer of any rank could decide to switch over to being an NCO.

I would not like to see NCO's holding down any other staff jobs....they are either part of the military training program or they are not.   So a MSgt (master rated NCO) who then stopped doing that job and went over to be personnel officer or some other wing level job would switch over to the appropriate officer rank.  Like wise a CAP Major who has not rating in the military training program but wanted to switch over would come in as a SrA until he got his technician rating and then would progress up from there.

[afgeo4]

No, this isn't another one of "those" threads.

I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that in the NEC agenda notes, the NCO topic is discussed and a decision was made to research the concept of creating an NCO career track with promotions and including non-prior members to be eligible to become NCOs.

I guess sometimes NHQ does hear us. I am glad. Hopefully they will allow current officers to switch to NCO grades so I can put my chevrons back on.

Not unless they change the officer program.. so if you put your chevrons back on are you going to salute and call "sir" a 21 year old, with 6 months in CAP and completion of level one....

That is what you would have to do....  (I am a active duty SMSgt By the way....)

That's funny because Air Force Chiefs with 35 years time in service salute and call "sir/ma'am" 22 year olds with 4 months in USAF and completion of a basic and tech courses. I've never seen them complain about it and it hasn't really had such a horrifying effect as you would claim.

[afgeo4]

I have an idea for an NCO corps...

First we must identify their duties....why do we need NCOs?

Since there can be no caste division of "workers" vs. "managers" in volunteer organization, we don't.

Col's will still be emptying the trash cans at unit meetings whether we have NCO's or not.

You missed my point....the NCO's would have a job....just like the Admin Officer, Ops Officer, and Logistics Officer.  His job would to teach the "military side" of CAP....specificly drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies, military heritage and traditions.  The would generally fall under/with the Professional Development Officer.

Right now this instance...I agree with you (and I stated in my original post) that there is no need for NCOs.  We could use them in the training role IF.....IF we made such military training mandatory for our officer professional development.

CAP NCOs would not...I SAY AGAIN...would not fulfill the traditional role NCOs have in the real military for the simple fact that we have no airman to train and supervise.

Except that we do... the cadets and new senior members.

NCO's are perfect for leadership/activities officer positions. They'd thrive in the AE Instructor role. They'd do quite well on ES missions as well. I just think they should be restricted from command roles and staff positions. Why would then someone choose an NCO grade? So they're not eligible to become a commander by "force" or "situation". So they are comfortable where they are, making a difference at the NCO level.

Don't you think there's something reassuring about being trained by someone who's a CMSgt vs a Col... could it be that the Col probably spent his/her last 10 years being an office brat?

[Flying Pig]

Why would a CAP NCO do any better as an instructor or activities and why would they do "quite well" on ES missions vs. a CAP 1st Lt?  Nobody is ever "forced" into any position.  Again, I think to many people are relating this to a military NCO and its not going to be the same thing.

So here I am, a prior service military E-5, no degree.  Im curious under this plan, what would happen to me as an example?  Would I end up becoming a SSgt?  What happens when several of the Air Guard members I have decide to stay NCOs and we end up with a Sq of NCO's?  Who runs the Sq if the enlisted ranks cant command units?  Can I still stay a Mission Pilot? Still nobody has explained why we need both officer and enlisted other than the cadets would might relate to it better.

by afgeo4....
Don't you think there's something reassuring about being trained by someone who's a CMSgt vs a Col... could it be that the Col probably spent his/her last 10 years being an office brat?

If this were the real military you'd be exactly right. It would be neat if we were really able to have that culture in CAP.  But, in CAP, they would both have the same experience.  You not going to have a crusty ol' Chief in CAP anymore than you could have the same crusty ol' Col.  We all do the same missions and the same job with the same under the same conditions.  In the military there is a definite separation between a Col and a Chief both in living arrangements, financial status, benefits, sometimes education and responsibilities.  In CAP, we will not have that.  It will still be Bob and Joe who show up one night per week with a different patch on their shoulders.   We have prior military NCOs to recognize those "real" NCO's.   Its not going to be what you all think.  Nobody outside of CAP cares that we are all officers, they just want the job done.

[afgeo4]

Why would a CAP NCO do any better as an instructor or activities and why would they do "quite well" on ES missions vs. a CAP 1st Lt?  Nobody is ever "forced" into any position.  Again, I think to many people are relating this to a military NCO and its not going to be the same thing.

So here I am, a prior service military E-5, no degree.  Im curious under this plan, what would happen to me as an example?  Would I end up becoming a SSgt?  What happens when several of the Air Guard members I have decide to stay NCOs and we end up with a Sq of NCO's?  Who runs the Sq if the enlisted ranks cant command units?  Can I still stay a Mission Pilot? Still nobody has explained why we need both officer and enlisted other than the cadets would might relate to it better.

by afgeo4....
Don't you think there's something reassuring about being trained by someone who's a CMSgt vs a Col... could it be that the Col probably spent his/her last 10 years being an office brat?

If this were the real military you'd be exactly right. It would be neat if we were really able to have that culture in CAP.  But, in CAP, they would both have the same experience.  You not going to have a crusty ol' Chief in CAP anymore than you could have the same crusty ol' Col.  We all do the same missions and the same job with the same under the same conditions.  In the military there is a definite separation between a Col and a Chief both in living arrangements, financial status, benefits, sometimes education and responsibilities.  In CAP, we will not have that.  It will still be Bob and Joe who show up one night per week with a different patch on their shoulders.   We have prior military NCOs to recognize those "real" NCO's.   Its not going to be what you all think.  Nobody outside of CAP cares that we are all officers, they just want the job done.

Given CAP culture, a CAP CMSgt cannot will not be a group/wing commander and may not even be accepted onto wing staff. That's not in the regs my friend, but it is the case. Our command does "encourage" NCO's to turn into officers if they want leadership positions and that is simply the case. I know of a handful myself. For those from NY... Pops is a good example.

Given that... a CAP colonel would have to have been a Wing CC, so he/she must have been on Wing staff prior to that... and probably a Group CC prior to that... and a Group staffie prior to that. That's the normal progression. So... given all that, there have probably been years since the person has been able to be at the one on one training level with a cadet. That changes a person's perspective on things and that's not really good when it comes to training. By that logic, a CMSgt hasn't held positions higher than Sq CC or maybe assistant staff officer or staff officer at group = much more time spent at the squadron level, dealing with new members and cadets = good experience and perspective.

That works in CAP and the military. Let's face it, people in CAP don't get promoted much for staying leadership officers their whole lives.

NCO's would do better because they'd know this is and will be their job. They focus on it better. They have a different attitude toward things... that would be in the military and CAP too. NCO's are naturally more hands-on because that's their job. Training requires hands-on techniques as much as it requires hands-off techniques.

BTW... ever had officers teach NCO academy? Non-prior NCO officers? It isn't very reassuring. Why? Because how can they teach what they've never done?

[jeders]

^Honestly, I think your logic here is incredibly flawed. That NCO can still do just as good of a job wearing gold bars. Just because they are hands on doesn't mean that they have to be an NCO; and just because they aren't an NCO doesn't mean they can't be good hands on teachers and leaders.

[lordmonar]

So here I am, a prior service military E-5, no degree.  Im curious under this plan, what would happen to me as an example?  Would I end up becoming a SSgt?  What happens when several of the Air Guard members I have decide to stay NCOs and we end up with a Sq of NCO's?  Who runs the Sq if the enlisted ranks cant command units?  Can I still stay a Mission Pilot? Still nobody has explained why we need both officer and enlisted other than the cadets would might relate to it better.

Nothing....unless you choose to go this route.  Anyone or no one can become an NCO under this plan.  They would have the specific job of training CAP members in military skills and that is all.  The would work under/with the PDO throughout a members career.

This would not affect any ES qualifications....except for higher level qualifications (say Section Cheifs and above).
NCOs should not be in command or staff positions (they can duel hat if necessary...but it would be encouraged for them to focus just on military training under the PDO).  NCOs above the squadron should be working for the group/wing/region/national command chiefs' staff.  This will help keep from blurring the rank lines any more than we already do.

As for the need....when the Command Chief from Iowa (his name slips my mind right now) first pushed this issue...he was addressing the concern that CAP is too business like and not military enough.  Is this really a problem?  No...not really....but IF.....IF we wanted to make CAP more military...developing a specialty track who's sole job was to develop the military aspects of our identity would help us greatly.

[O-Rex]

In reality, the only CAP members with any real "authority" mojo are your CC's.

A CAP "officer" and/or a CAP "NCO" who doesn't contribute to the cause, and engages in heavy hangar-talk while I'm trying to conduct a meeting would be equally worthless to me.

Again, think about the cost-benefit of implementing and managing something that seems to be nothing more than a cosmetic issue.

[lordmonar]

As I said before....and I said to the Command Chief way back when.

The first thing that would have to happen is that we would need to MANDATE military training for everyone.

Now I am not advocating that.....just sketching out how an NCO corps could be used in CAP. 

We would have to give them a real job and the provide them with a real specialty track progression program.

As things stand right now....I don't see a real need to mandate military training for everyone.  I also don't really see a need for CAP NCOs and IMHO that option should be removed.

But IF.....IF we wanted to re-blue CAP.....and IF....IF we wanted to give something for NCOs to do, we could merge these two into one system quite easily.

[Hawk200]

I think it might throw some of the younger AF folks, but we throw them a curve ball with the flight officer ranks anyway, so why not Sgt.. 

It's not going to look right to "redesignate" Air Force ranks to our own ends. Best to eliminate it, makes things easier.

The AF changed the NCO status for an E-4 (Sgt now SrA) back in the 1990's...

No, they didn't change it back in the '90's. The E-4 Sergeant was phased out in the
early '90's. I was a Senior Airman back in '91, and the Sergeant rank went into a phase out through attrition in '90, almost a full year before I would have been eligible for it.

....however the Navy and parts of the Army still think of E-4 as an NCO.

As far as I know of the Navy, an E-4 is an NCO. As for the Army, even in the combat arms branches, an E-4 is not commonly thought of as an NCO. Corporals are fairly rare, I've only known of less than a dozen in almost 6 years of time in an Army component. They are nowhere near as common as those outside the Army might think.

CAP NCOs would not...I SAY AGAIN...would not fulfill the traditional role NCOs have in the real military for the simple fact that we have no airman to train and supervise.

A valid point. Considering our program, they would have no position to be plugged into. They would probably be ideal in a few positions, but overall there is no overwhelming demand for them in our program. And when it comes to supervision, there isn't any position for them. Our program would require a massive restructuring to accomodate them.

If a former NCO wishes to retain their rank, I don't have any problem with that. But I don't think we need to create something for the simple desire to have it.

[Eclipse]

As I said before....and I said to the Command Chief way back when.

The first thing that would have to happen is that we would need to MANDATE military training for everyone.

Now I am not advocating that.....just sketching out how an NCO corps could be used in CAP. 

We would have to give them a real job and the provide them with a real specialty track progression program.

As things stand right now....I don't see a real need to mandate military training for everyone.  I also don't really see a need for CAP NCOs and IMHO that option should be removed.

But IF.....IF we wanted to re-blue CAP.....and IF....IF we wanted to give something for NCOs to do, we could merge these two into one system quite easily.

I'm with you here - to make this work, members would be GIVEN assignments, and much like the MC$, you could request anything you want, but at the end of the day, (as my kids say) "you get what you get and don't throw a fit..." .  Everyone has a responsibility, a track to get somewhere they want to be, and no empty shirts.

The attrition rate would be pretty high, but if we could weather the storm the core-group would be lean mean, and on the same page.

However unless we do some charter and organization revisions, I'm not sure where that would put those who are strong, contributing members, but have no interest in the military side of the CAP Multi-verse.

[SarDragon]

MC$ = ??   It's not intuitive to me.

[lordmonar]

MC$ = ??   It's not intuitive to me.

Maybe Mc Donalds ?

[Eclipse]

MC$ = ??   It's not intuitive to me.

Monetarily Compensated $ervice

[Flying Pig]

by afgeo4
Given CAP culture, a CAP CMSgt cannot will not be a group/wing commander and may not even be accepted onto wing staff. That's not in the regs my friend, but it is the case. Our command does "encourage" NCO's to turn into officers if they want leadership positions and that is simply the case. I know of a handful myself. For those from NY... Pops is a good example.

Given that... a CAP colonel would have to have been a Wing CC, so he/she must have been on Wing staff prior to that... and probably a Group CC prior to that... and a Group staffie prior to that. That's the normal progression. So... given all that, there have probably been years since the person has been able to be at the one on one training level with a cadet. That changes a person's perspective on things and that's not really good when it comes to training. By that logic, a CMSgt hasn't held positions higher than Sq CC or maybe assistant staff officer or staff officer at group = much more time spent at the squadron level, dealing with new members and cadets = good experience and perspective.

That works in CAP and the military. Let's face it, people in CAP don't get promoted much for staying leadership officers their whole lives.

NCO's would do better because they'd know this is and will be their job. They focus on it better. They have a different attitude toward things... that would be in the military and CAP too. NCO's are naturally more hands-on because that's their job. Training requires hands-on techniques as much as it requires hands-off techniques.

BTW... ever had officers teach NCO academy? Non-prior NCO officers? It isn't very reassuring. Why? Because how can they teach what they've never done?
______________________________________________

You just described 95% of the CAP membership.  We are making it sound like all Officers will someday move onto Sq. Commander, and then on to Group Commander like its some sort of natural progression.  So are we going to have a completely different set of Professional Development for NCO's vs. Officers?  We cant even have SLS and CLC out here in CA often times because of lack of participation.  So I cant imagine having completely separate Officer and NCO courses.

As far as having an officer teaching an NCO course.  Again, apples and oranges.  Seniors Officers teaching CADET NCO's does not compare to military officers teaching military NCOs. By this logic, what you are truly saying is someone needs to have been a cadet to work with cadets.  There is no reason why a CAP 1st Lt. cant teach an NCOS or a BCS, or teach drill and leadership.  This is why we have Specialty Tracks.  When you see a Capt. walking around with their Master Cadet Programs rating, you know he/she is the person to go to.  And lets face it.  We arent walking around base with hundreds of people where we need instant identification of someone who can teach a cadet how to drill.  The majority of this happens at the Sq. level and everyone knows who the "go to" people are for cadet programs in their Sq. or Group.  You are right, NCO's are more hands on....in the military.  That does not mean that culture is going to transfer to CAP simply because they now have stripes on their sleeve.  The NCO mindset is something that is engrained over a few years of "living the life."  And in CAP, Officers and NCO's live the same life.

Again, I think the majority of this is done with valid intentions, but all we are going to end up with are members who chose to wear a different patch.  The volunteer nature of CAP is that we need people to do the job.  As a Sq. Commander, Im not the slightest bit concerned about what you have on your sleeve or shoulder or how long you have been in.  If I need a Finance Officer or a Deputy, and you are a SSgt, guess what, your getting the job.  WHat happens if I run out of Officers for "Officer Positions"?  Do I submit a request to Wing to have an for a Finance Officer and have a Capt transfered in or do I work with who I have?