North Central Region RSC

[Eclipse]

^ I actually enjoy them...

[Private Investigator]

^ me too. It is part of life so people should deal with it.  :clap:

[lordmonar]

I'm split on this argument.

On the surface....yep....you should not get a student and instructor credit for the same course.

On the other side.........if you are asked to instruct at a course.....then you should get credit for being and instructor....No?

So.....it is simple....if we don't give student and instructor credit for the same course......we don't EVER ask a student to instruct at the course he is attending.

NOW....that leads to the question.....is that policy BEST for CAP?    If Capt X is super super good XYZ at what ever he does is attending say a UCC as a student....but he is the wing's accepted expert on all things XYZ.....and there is a block of instruction on XYZ in the UCC course......is it not a good use of CAP's resources, instructor's time, student's time to let Capt X to teach the XYZ block?

So......there you go.....the paradox, Catch-22.

[RiverAux]

NOW....that leads to the question.....is that policy BEST for CAP?    If Capt X is super super good XYZ at what ever he does is attending say a UCC as a student....but he is the wing's accepted expert on all things XYZ.....and there is a block of instruction on XYZ in the UCC course......is it not a good use of CAP's resources, instructor's time, student's time to let Capt X to teach the XYZ block?

Sure, its probably a great thing for the other students to hear from somebody that knows what they're talking about in that subject area, but what has the instructor of that block learned?  He hasn't learned anything knew and is akin to him just taking a smoke break during that section.  The student is supposed to be learning something in all the segments of the course. 

Some will say, "But now you want him to sit through a course taught by someone less qualified than him?  How does that make any sense?"  Well, there are a couple of benefits that may not be readily apparent
1) The person doing the teaching should be learning something while preparing and therefore is becoming more qualified and thus lessening the reliance of the wing on the top dog expert.  Thats a good thing.  Too often CAP Wings get their "go-to" guy on some issue and never both looking to see who else out there might be able to make a contribution. 
2) It really is unlikely that the "expert" really knows everything and they just might benefit from hearing someone else's take on the topic. 

[Eclipse]

So......there you go.....the paradox, Catch-22.

It's just another symptom the way CAP does PD, training, and staff appointments.

Put a new slick sleeve into a job as wing FM, and assuming he sticks, he's bound to know
more then the Capts in the room at an SLS, but since he still needs SLS he sits and
watches a Major who was grabbed at the last minutes as an instructor at something he
knows nothing about because there was a last minute opening and he need the credit.

The real fun starts when the butter bars start raising issues with the Maj and they are right -
pretty much negates the class.

Perhaps if members had to prove their were SMEs >before< getting staff jobs and being instructors.
I know, crazy.

It was made clear in my AOR, that is someone was in a PD session and was the wing's SME,
they could teach that class, but they would only get student credit the first time through.

[lordmonar]

River Aux...NOPE.

1)   Your argument is circular.   The expert should not teach what he know, so that the teacher becomes an expert on his own and then does not have to rely on the expert...that he did not relay on.

2)  So...we don't go with the guy we "know" (as I stated my premise) is the subject matter expert...because maybe he's not and he may learn from someone else.    Okay.   Sure...maybe in is possible that some other member my teach him something.   I'll buy that. 

So like I said........then the policy is not that someone should not get credit for attending a course as both a student and an instructor.   A student should be FORBIDDEN to instruct at the course he is attending.  No matter what.

[Eclipse]

Actually I think yours i more circular then mine.  If only because it doesn't match CAP reality.

If we made people get trained, proficient, and prove themselves before being appointed or promoted,
then the SMEs would be grade and PD level appropriate and this would never or rarely occur.

The organizations we purport to emulate and support require instructors to be trained as both an SME and
as an instructor.

[a2capt]

So, the typical SLS/CLC .. someone teaches one session, and sits in the rest as a student.

Completion is 80% of the curriculum.

One could very well argue that objective was met.

Now, getting staff credit for teaching a single session? I'm not overly thrilled with that. Anything more than a single of the typical segments, you'd be out on the 80% .. if the qualifier is "Pupil- eyes forward", vs "in the room" ..

It all boils down to the approver.

[lordmonar]

It was made clear in my AOR, that is someone was in a PD session and was the wing's SME,
they could teach that class, but they would only get student credit the first time through.

And that is the part that I think is wrong, wrong, wrong.   You can't have your cake and eat it too.  You can't ask your people to do XYZ and not give them credit for XYZ.

[lordmonar]

The organizations we purport to emulate and support require instructors to be trained as both an SME and
as an instructor.

Oh...you want to go there....

[Eclipse]

It was made clear in my AOR, that is someone was in a PD session and was the wing's SME,
they could teach that class, but they would only get student credit the first time through.

And that is the part that I think is wrong, wrong, wrong.   You can't have your cake and eat it too.  You can't ask your people to do XYZ and not give them credit for XYZ.

Meh, maybe.  This however reflects the real state of CAP.

Scylla and Charybdis - you can have Maj Slidereader wasted an hour, or the real SME provide useful info.

[RiverAux]

  A student should be FORBIDDEN to instruct at the course he is attending.  No matter what.

I think we're getting to the same place different ways. 

There shouldn't be just one person in your Wing or Region that is competent and qualified to teach any particular subject.  If that is the case, then the unit, wing, or region is failing in its duties. 

[Eclipse]

Agreed.

Also not unusual. "Competent and qualified" isn't enough.
They also have to be interested in teaching.

[Alaric]

So, the typical SLS/CLC .. someone teaches one session, and sits in the rest as a student.

Completion is 80% of the curriculum.

One could very well argue that objective was met.

Now, getting staff credit for teaching a single session? I'm not overly thrilled with that. Anything more than a single of the typical segments, you'd be out on the 80% .. if the qualifier is "Pupil- eyes forward", vs "in the room" ..

It all boils down to the approver.

There is no 80% rule that I have been able to find, the 80% rule is for encampment.  When I was directing a CLC a guy tried to pull the 80%, I told him he'd need to be there the entire time or he wouldn't get credit

[JeffDG]

Sure, its probably a great thing for the other students to hear from somebody that knows what they're talking about in that subject area, but what has the instructor of that block learned?  He hasn't learned anything knew and is akin to him just taking a smoke break during that section.  The student is supposed to be learning something in all the segments of the course. 

Well, that depends on the purpose of the training.

Is the purpose to send students out with the necessary skills and knowledge that is taught in the course, or is the purpose to teach the students things?

I contend it's the former.  So a student who is a SME on one block of the course that he is a student in already possesses the skills and knowledge taught in the course, and his "taking a smoke break" during that portion does not impair in any way meeting that training objective.