Senior Member D&C and Customs/Courtesies.

[antdetroitwallyball]

I was just curious to know how CAP's senior members are doing with Drills/Ceremony and Customs/Courtesies. I get that the official resident experts at this stuff are our Cadets, but I was just curious to here from other senior members (or cadets) here regarding how well they think their squadron's Senior Members are at all of this stuff.

My Squadron: A group of diversly-aged senior members all with great attitudes, moral compasses, and CAP-related knowledge. Everyone seems to get along pretty well with each other, and very little Old Boy's Networks. So great things here.

Except D/C and Customs/Courtesies. In short, we suck miserably at this. Again, I get that it almost *doesn't matter* for 99% of what the SM do, but should we ever go on base or be at an encampment, it might be bad. We are fairly consistent with using proper titles (Captain, 2nd LT, etc), but in terms of salutes and even the finer points of uniform appearence, we are not so hot. To their credit, the squandron leadership has acknowledged that we need work here, and as I was saying in a previous thread, we will occasionally pull a cadet into the SM room and have him/her spend an hour or so brushing us up. The Cadets really get a kick out of that, and they are really good at that stuff.

So, how does you squadron rank in terms of all this for Senior Members? BTW, I'm 26 years old, and you best believe that I regularly call out Cadets that refer to the Senior Members as "you old guys." I'm barely 8 years older than some of the cadets, thank you very much. No "senior member" here. 

[Garibaldi]

I was just curious to know how CAP's senior members are doing with Drills/Ceremony and Customs/Courtesies. I get that the official resident experts at this stuff are our Cadets, but I was just curious to here from other senior members (or cadets) here regarding how well they think their squadron's Senior Members are at all of this stuff.

My Squadron: A group of diversly-aged senior members all with great attitudes, moral compasses, and CAP-related knowledge. Everyone seems to get along pretty well with each other, and very little Old Boy's Networks. So great things here.

Except D/C and Customs/Courtesies. In short, we suck miserably at this. Again, I get that it almost *doesn't matter* for 99% of what the SM do, but should we ever go on base or be at an encampment, it might be bad. We are fairly consistent with using proper titles (Captain, 2nd LT, etc), but in terms of salutes and even the finer points of uniform appearence, we are not so hot. To their credit, the squandron leadership has acknowledged that we need work here, and as I was saying in a previous thread, we will occasionally pull a cadet into the SM room and have him/her spend an hour or so brushing us up. The Cadets really get a kick out of that, and they are really good at that stuff.

So, how does you squadron rank in terms of all this for Senior Members? BTW, I'm 26 years old, and you best believe that I regularly call out Cadets that refer to the Senior Members as "you old guys." I'm barely 8 years older than some of the cadets, thank you very much. No "senior member" here. 

In exactly 4 of the 5 units I have been in, D&C/C&C was religiously avoided by all seniors unless they were directly involved in CP AND have either been a cadet or served in the military. When opening formation came around the seniors would literally run into their offices and find something to do that kept them from joining in, or they arrived "just late enough" and wore either civvies "because they just came in from work" or their polo "because it isn't a uniform. I didn't join a civilian volunteer organization to march and salute." And no one had an interest in even learning the proper way to report for promotions or awards. They ended up looking ridiculous. Cadets would literally point and laugh behind their backs. Of course, I 86'd that pretty quick. In most cases. But that's another story for another time.

This is a sad indictment. I really think that in order for a SM to progress past level 1, they need to demonstrate basic C&C/D&C. Basic enough so that when they go to a Wing or Region (God forbid a National) activity, they don't look like a bag-o-donuts when reporting to receive their Gill Robb Wilson award, even if wearing the G/W (See how this easily slipped into a uniform thread?). The cadets don't and won't respect someone who can't or won't try to learn the processes.

I tried. I really tried to get a basic class going for new seniors in my units, but I was met with the above arguments. Too much work to do, I didn't join the military, I got enough of this in my __ years of AD, what I wear isn't a uniform so why should I have to learn this. I've heard it all. I know, I know. We can't enforce much because we don't have the "authority" inherent in CAP, but what can we do? What, I ask you?

Cadets have complained about the lack of C&C among the seniors to me. It really does affect them when they see that C&C/D&C doesn't apparently apply to the senior side and isn't enforced like it is with cadets. They are glad that I take the time to try to help and correct what I see wrong with them, quietly, on the side, when they muck up. They just don't understand when Commander Cody can't be bothered to to salute properly when they have to.

[antdetroitwallyball]

Very interesting post, thank you!

I really think that in order for a SM to progress past level 1, they need to demonstrate basic C&C/D&C. Basic enough so that when they go to a Wing or Region (God forbid a National) activity, they don't look like a bag-o-donuts when reporting to receive their Gill Robb Wilson award

I totally agree. I understand that the reason that D/C still persists in our non-military volunteer organization is primarily due to tradition and honoring our past as a opposed to a necessary function, but if we wear a distinctive uniform, let's at least honor it by having some basic D/C skills.

Cadets have complained about the lack of C&C among the seniors to me. It really does affect them when they see that C&C/D&C doesn't apparently apply to the senior side and isn't enforced like it is with cadets.

This is really what worries me. Let's just be honest: on a practical life-skills you-need-to-know-this-to-become-a-functioning-adult level, the degree to which cadets do D/C and C/C is just dumb. I would have to believe there is occasionally an older cadet that at some point looks back and asks himself, "Why exactly do we do all this??" They are expected to act military when they are not military. However, I would never advocate decreasing the amount of D/C & C/C that the cadets do. It teaches them respect and leadership skills on a very subtle but very effective level. As SM in my squadron is fond of saying, "cadets are learning stuff and they don't even realize it."

So here's the problem: The whole of the cadet program is to help kids begin to fit into their quickly approaching roles as being young adults. At 15, a kid is "trying on" different adult roles, even if he has no idea what he is doing. That's why a 15 year old will have his mom drive him and his girl to a date at a McDonalds. Does that make sense? Of Course not. But he's trying to figure out the roles grown adult play by doing things he percieves to be "a grown adult activity" (e.g. dating). My point is, you can fool a 13-14 year old for so long, but at some point, a 16 year old cadet is not going to stay motivated in taking D/C seriously if he sees people who may not be much older than he is (a 26 year old SM, me) completely act like D/C is "just something adult CAP members don't do." I feel for the protection of the cadet program's integrity, all SM need to have at least a baseline knowledge of D/C.

Best way to ensure this is, IMHO, make the Seniors do very basic/brief D/C IN THE PRESENCE OF THE CADETS every meeting night at opening ceremony. The practice will eventually result in proficiency, and it will send the message to the cadets that, "hey, this stuff does actually matter." Even if it really actually doesn't. 

[JoeTomasone]

Sorry, but I can't concur with the above.

The regulation pamphlet (CAPP 151 for those keeping score) requires C&C to be observed by ALL CAP members, not just Cadets.  If you don't enforce it amongst the SMs, what right do you have to expect it from the Cadets?

I consider this to be an integrity issue - you know, one of those core values we profess to believe in.   If you don't want to join a civilian, volunteer organization that happens to be the auxiliary to one of the Armed Forces and that requires proper uniform wear and C&C, then DON'T.

"But we need SMs in our squadron to do real work and don't want to drive them away!"

You know what?  Everyone will rise only to the highest level of apathy observed.   If you foster an attitude where some of the requirements are optional, then you foster an environment where everyone essentially gets to make their own rules - or at least, test the boundaries.   If you foster an environment where you have standards and do not tolerate a willful failure to adhere to those standards, then compliance will increase and interest from those who appreciate a more professional environment will increase as well.   

It makes absolutely zero sense to require SMs to demonstrate C&C and proper uniform wear to achieve Level 1 if you never expect them to do it again and don't enforce them.   In fact, I'd expect grumbling from them over having to learn something that they will never use again.


I would submit the following excerpts from USAF commentaries for your consideration:

Military customs and courtesies go beyond basic politeness; they play an extremely important role in building morale, esprit de corps, discipline, and mission effectiveness. It's about being proud of who you are and what you stand for. Customs and courtesies ensure proper respect for the chain of command and build the foundation for self-discipline ... they make our Air Force and it's people special.

Customs and courtesies go beyond basic politeness and play an extremely important role in building morale, esprit de corps, discipline and mission effectiveness. They ensure proper respect for the chain of command and build the foundation for self-discipline. Our core values of integrity first, service before self and excellence in all we do are tied directly to our customs and courtesies. For this reason, it is vital for each one of us to evaluate our level of commitment to them.

What does it say to a new Airman when they see a noncommissioned officer or officer violating customs and courtesies? It tells the Airman it's acceptable to do the same. What does it say when we turn our heads to these violations? It merely reinforces the act as normal and acceptable behavior.

How can we as leaders expect our Airmen to live by the core values when we ourselves aren't doing the same? If we are turning our heads and looking the other way, we are just as guilty as the individual committing the act.

We all know what customs and courtesies are and why they are important. They are not something we abide by only when someone is around or we think someone is watching. They should be an everyday part of our lives. They show pride in who we are and what we do. When we live by our core values and practice our customs and courtesies, that pride is plainly visible for all to see.

Recently it's been noted that members fail to salute staff cars, pause for TAPs, reveille and retreat, or render proper customs and courtesies. While it's easy to rationalize the behavior away, we must embrace our customs and courtesies. They remind us "who we are," and easily translate from the shore to the airfield, the cruiser to the battlefield. In peacetime and war, we are required to maintain professionalism, etiquette, situational awareness, respect for authority and faith with our country and comrades.

Practicing these precepts is impossible if we have a "self before service" mentality instead of "service before self."

[antdetroitwallyball]

Major Tomasone:

It sounds like we are agreeing 100% on everything as far as I can see.

If you don't want to join a civilian, volunteer organization that happens to be the auxiliary to one of the Armed Forces and that requires proper uniform wear and C&C, then DON'T.

I completely agree. Join a flying club.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First (best) squadron, composite squadron: Only wore AF uniforms, C&C enforced on meeting time on both seniors and cadets (rank only, no first names).  Began each unit assembly with formation in drill hall.  1993-1999.  Left due to move/marriage; transferred to senior squadron.  Best bunch of CAP members I ever worked with.

Second squadron, senior squadron:  I was the only one who wore the AF uniform.  Others wore a mix of polos (usually with blue jeans), flight suits with no insignia except leather nameplate, and the very, very occasional G/W/blazer.  C&C's almost nonexistent.  I addressed a Lieutenant Colonel as "sir" and he said "we're not real sticklers for rank here."  1999-2001.  Left due to disgust with "flying club" policies (if you weren't a pilot, you were excess baggage, even as an observer/scanner, and they did not like to fly cadets).

Third squadron, composite squadron.  C&C's usually enforced, but not rigidly.  Cadet Commander had a tendency toward R. Lee Ermey wannabe, for which both myself (safety) and CC admonished him for several times.  2005-2006.  Left due to completely messed-up/GOBN influenced IG investigation.

Fourth squadron, cadet squadron morphed into (very large and active) senior squadron.  C&C's more rigidly enforced among the cadets than seniors, but joint senior/cadet formation at beginning of meetings.  Cadets had very good drill team.  2009-2012.  Left solely due to distance/drive time/gas prices; transferred to closer unit.

Fifth squadron (current), composite squadron.  Hard to say because have very few cadets.  Rank used during meetings, but saluting somewhat rare among seniors.  2012-present.

[Garibaldi]

First (best) squadron, composite squadron: Only wore AF uniforms, C&C enforced on meeting time on both seniors and cadets (rank only, no first names).  Began each unit assembly with formation in drill hall.  1993-1999.  Left due to move/marriage; transferred to senior squadron.  Best bunch of CAP members I ever worked with.

Second squadron, senior squadron:  I was the only one who wore the AF uniform.  Others wore a mix of polos (usually with blue jeans), flight suits with no insignia except leather nameplate, and the very, very occasional G/W/blazer.  C&C's almost nonexistent.  I addressed a Lieutenant Colonel as "sir" and he said "we're not real sticklers for rank here."  1999-2001.  Left due to disgust with "flying club" policies (if you weren't a pilot, you were excess baggage, even as an observer/scanner, and they did not like to fly cadets).

Then that unit had a failure to comply fully with the missions of CAP.

Third squadron, composite squadron.  C&C's usually enforced, but not rigidly.  Cadet Commander had a tendency toward R. Lee Ermey wannabe, for which both myself (safety) and CC admonished him for several times.  2005-2006.  Left due to completely messed-up/GOBN influenced IG investigation.

Fourth squadron, cadet squadron morphed into (very large and active) senior squadron.  C&C's more rigidly enforced among the cadets than seniors, but joint senior/cadet formation at beginning of meetings.  Cadets had very good drill team.  2009-2012.  Left solely due to distance/drive time/gas prices; transferred to closer unit.

Fifth squadron (current), composite squadron.  Hard to say because have very few cadets.  Rank used during meetings, but saluting somewhat rare among seniors.  2012-present.

[SunDog]

We're a composite sqdn - I'm gonna be transparent here, so if you feel the need to flame, go for it - just know it won't burn in a vacuum. . .

We (SM's) form up alongside the cadets at close of meeting, to do promotions, etc.  USAF uniform or corporate grey/whites are almost never worn, by anyone.  One of the CP SMs wears woodland sometimes.  But mostly polo and/or BDU, or blue, (sometimes sage green), flight suits. Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

SM's use rank address in the room when cadets are present. Much less so, though occasionally, when SMs only are present. When a cadet encounters one of us outdoors salutes are returned.  Very rare to render between SMs except during formation.  We fly our cadets, and some other sqdns, as well.

SMs do not march. On a personal note, the formation for SMs seems kinda quaint; no real harm done, but not much value, either.  The same stuff could be said and done in the meeting.  YMMV and good on ya, if you like it. Live and let live. Not according to Big CAP, I know, but this is our small corner of CAP reality.

I think the Wing weenies formed and marched for some reason or other at a monthly gathering.  Few times I went to Wing, I skipped the festivities.  Some SMs also started finding better uses for their time, and I think the custom dies out (but not sure).

[JoeTomasone]

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

Minor flame.  Squadron number and grade insignia are not authorized on the CAP Baseball cap; nothing is permitted on the (woodland camo) BDU Baseball Cap. 

[SunDog]

Yep, no problem - someone mentioned it before (baseball cap & rank).  It our sqdn custom alone; it's wing wide. I guess it's more "unauthorized" than "not permitted". Maybe just ignored.

[JoeTomasone]

Yep, no problem - someone mentioned it before (baseball cap & rank).  It our sqdn custom alone; it's wing wide. I guess it's more "unauthorized" than "not permitted". Maybe just ignored.

Except:

COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

[Spaceman3750]

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

Minor flame.  Squadron number and grade insignia are not authorized on the CAP Baseball cap; nothing is permitted on the (woodland camo) BDU Baseball Cap.

IAW 39-1 Table 2-3 item 6, unit designator is approved for the CAP baseball cap.

Color, unit designation, andcloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

[JoeTomasone]

Color, unit designation, andcloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

Except the Unit Designation is NOT the Charter Number; it is the name of the unit.  For example:

3. Letterhead.

a. Preprinted letterhead is preferred when writing a memorandum style letter or a business
style letter. The use of preprinted letterhead is optional for other types of written
correspondence.

b. Letterhead must include these elements: unit designation; the words "Civil Air Patrol";
"United States Air Force Auxiliary"; and the geographic location of the unit. Letterhead will
start 1/2 inch from the top edge of the page and be centered. Letterhead should be in a non-serif
font. Arial is preferred. The words "United States Air Force Auxiliary" and the geographical
information may be a smaller font than the unit designation and "Civil Air Patrol". See
examples below:

HEADQUARTERS MISSOURI WING
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
PO Box 15604
Kansas City MO 64108-5000

RIVERDALE COMPOSITE SQUADRON
CIVIL AIR PATROL UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
1276 Airline Street
Trenton MI 12345-510

USAF Example:

Unit Designation: 224th Joint Communications Support Squadron

Previous Designation: 224th Combat Communications Squadron (Contingency)

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

[Shotgun]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread . . .

I've been part of three different in units in three different regions.

First unit was fairly casual. We often referred to each other by grade, but never had opening formations.
(Seniors meet on different night than cadets)

Second unit formed up with the cadets at the start of each meeting, but rarely saluted, referred to each other by grade, or saluted.

Third unit is quite different.  The unit is fairly young ( < 4 years old), and we've had a recent influx of younger seniors who are quite interested and enthusiastic about Drill and Ceremonies.

We form up at the beginning and end of each meeting, refer to each other by grade, and have actually just started dedicating one training block a month to drill. Most of the drill training is practicing formations, reporting, and facing movements. However, last month we went outside and worked on marching and flanks.

We are now where near as proficient as the cadets, but it has made us look %100 better when it comes to accepting awards and looking "professional".

There are a couple of seniors who really don't care about D&C, but overall most of the Seniors are enjoying it.
(From what I can tell.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first unit that observed D&C and C/C was the tightest unit I've been in - both seniors and cadets - and I think our formations and observation of rank contributed.

[coudano]

Well let's take a step back for a second, and think about the purpose of D&C.  Why do we do it?

In the cadet program, we use it as a tool in the leadership laboratory to teach a host of secondary skills.  We want active listening, attention to detail, command voice, confidence, situational awareness, thinking ahead, quickly reacting to contingencies, and yes even the oft mentioned 'teamwork'.  I can probably come up with more, if I think about it, those were just off the top of my head.

That said, senior members are not students (cadets) in the cadet program.  So those outcomes are not expected of senior members.  So for what reason would we use the tools that achieve those outcomes on senior members?

At the end of the day, most senior members need to know how to stand at attention, maybe at ease and parade rest, how to walk in a semi professional manner, and shake take and salute.  A reporting statement probably wouldn't kill either, but i'm calling that icing on the cake.  That's the drill that senior members need, in order to function for what is expected out of them as senior members.  (unfortunately, an awful lot of senior members fall flat on even this simple list of basics)


With regards to cadets being the 'experts' at drill, well...
I have seen too many train wrecks not to beg to differ.
Yes any cadet, certainly by the time they have earned their Mitchell award (at the latest) "should have" pretty much completely mastered at least flight level drill from the perspective of being able to execute the commands, give the commands, and also teach/evaluate.  It's actually part of the cadet's job and responsibility to do that.  But well, unfortunately, an awful lot of cadets (i'm talking about cadet senior nco's and cadet officers) fall flat on even this basic program requirement...

For my money, after you pin Mitchell, you are basically done drilling, except for standing there and performing ceremonial position once in a while.  But i've had rocks thrown at me over that, before

Senior members who work with the cadet program, particularly in the role of a leadership officer, need to at least know enough about drill to watch C/SSgt Drillzalot instructing C/AB Snuffy, from across the parking lot, and make a judgement call that what is being taught is "about right" (or not).  Senior members who conduct drill tests need to know enough about drill to watch a cadet doing it and give a legitimate pass or fail on at least the moves in the test.  In some cases, particularly new or recovering squadrons, a senior member might have to take an active role in directly teaching and evaluating drill for cadets, temporarily, until the cadets grow experienced enough to do it themselves with supervision (although i'd buy gas for a car load of cadets from a neighboring squadron to come down temporarily, if possible)

Senior members who do not work with the cadet program in that way...   are just senior members (see above).



As far as customs and courtesies, the way I see it you have a few 'problems' that you can approach,
1.  People who don't know what the 'right and proper' thing to do is (don't know)
2.  People who intentionally chose not to do the 'right and proper' thing at the right and proper time (or ever) (don't care)
3.  People who just make poor judgements about when or to what degree to apply 'right and proper' or when its ok to be more relaxed or casual.  (they know the right thing, and have just chosen... unwisely)

With regards to #3, it shouldn't be any secret that people who work together in a shop often have a relaxed mode of C&C in certain environments.  The problem is when you transition from one environment to the other.  The senior room at your squadron meeting might be first names.  But they 'should' pick up a little better standard for example, in front of cadets.  They should pick up an even higher standard outside at a retreat ceremony.  This is not even inconsistent with the realmilitary.  Nobody (maybe the tomb guards) is "on, 100%, all the time".

[JoeTomasone]

We want active listening, attention to detail, command voice, confidence, situational awareness, thinking ahead, quickly reacting to contingencies, and yes even the oft mentioned 'teamwork'.  I can probably come up with more, if I think about it, those were just off the top of my head.

That said, senior members are not students (cadets) in the cadet program.  So those outcomes are not expected of senior members.  So for what reason would we use the tools that achieve those outcomes on senior members?

Oh, my - have I got some SMs for YOU to meet...


In any event, it is expected (when in military-style uniform) of you and I and all SMs:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless,
CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than
themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

[a2capt]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School
11-13 April 2014
Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base, CA
Going to Encampment this year? Want to be more useful during drill times? Not sure what is the difference between a left flank, a column left, a column of twos?
Maybe, it has simply been a while.
Come learn. Challenge yourself.
Students:  Student Application deadline is received by 29 March 2014.   
Cost is $40, including billeting, meals, & T-Shirt.

Classes to Expect:
· Drill Terms
· Common Drill Errors
· Flight Drill
· Inspecting the Flight
· Observe Flight Drill
· Drill Competition Overview & Administration
· Squadron Formation & Squadron Drill
· Leading the Flight: Practical Experience
· Salutes & Customs and Courtesies
· And much more!
Refund Policy:  No refund will be issued for Cancellations within one week of the activity, unless for verified emergency.
Mail all applications (CAPF 31 & CAPF 160 with ALL signatures), with $40 check, to     LtCol Grace Edinboro, 4601 Ventura West Ct, Elk Grove, CA 95758
Senior DCS:  For seniors without experience in the military or as a cadet – learn the ropes so you can have a positive impact on the Cadet Program!  Open to all Senior Members, experienced or not!  (guaranteed fun will be had by all!!)

Commandant:
Major Martin P. Sanford
Mobile Phone:  (530) 417-4108
Email:  martinpsanford@gmail.com
Project Officer:
LtCol Grace E. Edinboro
Mobile Phone:  (916) 501-0262
Email:  grace.e.edinboro.mil@mail.mil

[JoeTomasone]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[PHall]

And this is the third time in two years that this school is happening.