Disorganized website

[umpirecali]

I am a new SM and am wondering why the CAP website(s) are so all over the place. I work for a company thar does a lot of computer based training, but at CAP these CBT's are illogical to me.  I have completed my lvl 1, Yeager, GES qual and several other online classes and can't see any rhyme or reason to CAP's site. 

Sometimes the course is in eservices, sometimes capmembers.com, sometimes LMS, online courses and exams, SMS...etc.  I have never been AD military so is this just par for gov't training?  Another aspect that stands out to me as weird is the whole uploading certificates thing.  if you can do a member search and see I took the training, then why don't those systems talk to each other and complete my qual instead of the SQRT process?

In my job I am a six sigma master black belt so I can't help but want to streamline things...so this post is half question, half rant.

[a2capt]

It's been in a state of flux over the past several years. What you're seeing is some stuff still on the original back end, exam wise. It will all be in the LMS when it's done. Moving the cadets online was a huge step, it's been a couple years, and well ironed out now.

Uploading of certificates is from systems that are not connected, as you see. As for the SQTR, at some point you took training and it needs to be recorded. Someone signs the paper, when the paper is filled in, you upload it. That's the "proof", that the inspector, the next echelon, what have you, can view to see that yes this was actually done by someone, not just all the boxes checked off.

[Eclipse]

FEMA classes are another example.

The points you've been making have been raised before, and are salient, but don't make the mistake that many new members do of calling everything and anything that "doesn't make sense" out as if you're the first person to notice.

CAP is a big program with a lot of moving parts, and not easily comparable to organizations that might look externally similar.  Get invested, work it as-is, and look to help where you can once you see how things work today.

[umpirecali]

FEMA classes are another example.

The points you've been making have been raised before, and are salient, but don't make the mistake that many new members do of calling everything and anything that "doesn't make sense" out as if you're the first person to notice.

CAP is a big program with a lot of moving parts, and not easily comparable to organizations that might look externally similar.  Get invested, work it as-is, and look to help where you can once you see how things work today.

Yep, I took the IS-100 last week so I experienced my first FEMA class.  Now I need to complete the IS-700 for mission scanner.

I'm glad I am not the first to notice it and I can appreciate a work in progress as I have overseen technology changes in my profession.  As long the powers that be know about it and working to improve it, makes me happy for now.

[Critical AOA]

I certainly hope you are not implying that eServices is not intuitive nor user friendly?   

[Private Investigator]

Its a work-in-progress. You would not believe what it was like in the CAP dark ages before computers.

[denverpilot]

Its a work-in-progress. You would not believe what it was like in the CAP dark ages before computers.

We ran missions on paper, even when the power was out and there wasn't an Internet yet. 

And, a number of us had stronger biceps from lugging file boxes around. And paper cuts from filing them. And lots of filing cabinets.

But we didn't worry about how we'd connect a Mission Base to WMIRS in the next Natural Disaster.

We joked recently about that being the perfect gotcha to throw into a SAREX.

"Internet access just died and it isn't coming back. Turn off all personal data devices that can access WMIRS or be used for alternate forms of communication and continue the search. Internet is down completely in a 200 mile radius."

Wouldn't that one be a doozie during an Eval? Evil. The paper would fly.

[docbiochem33]

Its a work-in-progress. You would not believe what it was like in the CAP dark ages before computers.

You mean the days when we had to do everything by hand or on a typewriter in triplicate so someone along the way could lose it and we had to do it all over again?

The eServices systems are not the greatest and seem to always change and then you have to learn all over again how to use them, but they are an improvement.  I remember when forms were finally put online so I could just type into them.  What a rush that was.  I could fill out one form, print it off 3 times, and then save it to my hard drive for future use, and mail in the copies.  It saved me a lot of headaches as an Admin guy because when Wing would lose stuff I could look it up and say, "I mailed it to you on this date, you replied that you had it, and now I can send you an unsigned copy if you have a question."  This made it harder for some when I could scan it in, email it, and the Cc and Bcc people.  This meant that no one could say they lost it all of a sudden because I could immediately send a scanned copy.

The good thing now is that all things are electronic and no one can say it got lost because there is a computer trail.

Can the websites be better?  Yes, but remember, this is a organization funded by the government so there is no way it is going to be as simple as, hmmm, I don't know, ebay?

[arajca]

Its a work-in-progress. You would not believe what it was like in the CAP dark ages before computers.

We ran missions on paper, even when the power was out and there wasn't an Internet yet. 

And, a number of us had stronger biceps from lugging file boxes around. And paper cuts from filing them. And lots of filing cabinets.

But we didn't worry about how we'd connect a Mission Base to WMIRS in the next Natural Disaster.

We joked recently about that being the perfect gotcha to throw into a SAREX.

"Internet access just died and it isn't coming back. Turn off all personal data devices that can access WMIRS or be used for alternate forms of communication and continue the search. Internet is down completely in a 200 mile radius."

Wouldn't that one be a doozie during an Eval? Evil. The paper would fly.

We need to talk...

[Eclipse]

"Internet access just died and it isn't coming back. Turn off all personal data devices that can access WMIRS or be used for alternate forms of communication and continue the search. Internet is down completely in a 200 mile radius."

Wouldn't that one be a doozie during an Eval? Evil. The paper would fly.

A non-factor.  They did that to us last eval.  It didn't even slow us down.

Power off? Fire up the generators.

No internet?  Implement your pre-determined backup plan, which involves local documents and status boards
and fire up your backup ICP (someone sitting outside the affected area), until internet comes back up.

FYI - there's no such thing as "no internet" in any scenario CAP would find themselves.  Wireless broadband, cell-phones, satellite, radio relay outside the DA, etc.  The federal government cannot, will not, and does not, function without connectivity and neither should we.

In a real DA, maybe you'll have to wait to get iTunes updates, and Netflix will be slower then normal, but if you can't
find a way to maintain basic connectivity and functional operations, step out of the way and let those who know how
to do it keep moving.

[Larry Mangum]

But it is good practice, to ensure that staff still knows how to do their jobs on paper.  I am one of those evil evaluators who will kill the power and make people do everything on paper.  Does not matter if you have a generator if you cannot get fuel to it or it has not been run in over 6 months.

[docbiochem33]

FYI - there's no such thing as "no internet" in any scenario CAP would find themselves.  Wireless broadband, cell-phones, satellite, radio relay outside the DA, etc.  The federal government cannot, will not, and does not, function without connectivity and neither should we.

I would never say that there is any scenario where CAP would find themselves with "no internet."  There are many areas of the U.S. where internet connection is limited and speeds would be so slow that running things with no internet would be better.  I live in city limits where I am at, but if I am on a landline at my home I can type in an address, hit enter, leave the room, get coffee, change channels on the TV, and come back to have about 1/4 of a page up.  Why?  Because I am too far from a trunk line.

When I have traveled to Michigan's UP I have been in areas where there are no landlines and cellular service is bad.  In a mission I cannot expect someone in St. Ignace or Sault Sainte Marie (pronounced: Soo Saint Maire) to be waiting for me to call and forward information.  In a disaster many of these areas would probably have nothing.

There are also areas in the LP that are just as bad.  I can remember a 6 mine stretch of M-65 where there was no landline and a gentleman told me that when they had to call the local Sheriff or ambulance they had to leave the house, drive to a house with a landline, and then wait for the locals to respond to that house to guide them into the emergency area.

If this is what the locals delt with on a daily basis what would happen in a real emergency?  Missions would not rely on an internet connection.

I know you would say that we have radios, and with repeaters they are useful, but the county I lived in had major dead areas clear into the early 2000's for local E.S. persons.  I can remember one emergency where a deputy found an accident and had to go to a house about 3 miles away to call on a landline because the radio in his car would not reach the dispatch center 15 miles away as the crow flies.  He was lucky because it was summer and there were people in the cabins and he could find someone with a phone.  If it had been late fall, winter, or early spring he would have had to drive several more miles just to find a phone.  (Yes we could have had a tower put out there, but all the downstate people didn't want it because it "looked bad" and they wanted to get away from the intrusions of the "big city" so they fought the county on it.)

Having delt with this, I say we need to practice for the event that there is truly no internet and phone service.  It would save us a lot of problems because we don't know if systems will be down, overloaded, or outright destroyed because of a disaster. 

To err is human, to lose everything is a computer.

[Eclipse]

But it is good practice, to ensure that staff still knows how to do their jobs on paper. 

Agree.

I am one of those evil evaluators who will kill the power and make people do everything on paper.  Does not matter if you have a generator if you cannot get fuel to it or it has not been run in over 6 months.

If you can't get fuel to a generator, then you won't be running a CAP mission.  We don't operate in those environments.

As to testing - agree.  If the first time you test it is when the power goes out, you deserve to sit in the dark.  But these days even generators
are not a necessity.  You can run a mission on iPads and network them with a battery-powered access point - that'll give you 4-days of function,
especially if you use them sparingly.

If you're in a real-world, and can't find fuel, power, and internet in 8-10 hours, then the ICP is in the wrong place.

[Eclipse]

I would never say that there is any scenario where CAP would find themselves with "no internet."  There are many areas of the U.S. where internet connection is limited and speeds would be so slow that running things with no internet would be better.

ICS Doctrine dictates that the ICP doesn't go in those areas.  In fact, it really shouldn't be in the DA at all, and thankfully CAP-USAF is beginning to understand this in regards to our missions and evaluations.

I know you would say that we have radios, and with repeaters they are useful, but the county I lived in had major dead areas clear into the early 2000's for local E.S. persons.

This is why we have airborne repeaters and highbirds.

Mission comms and internet are no longer optional.  If we don't have them, we put them in ourselves.

[docbiochem33]

"This is why we have airborne repeaters and highbirds."


Airborne repeaters sound great and so do highbirds, but what happens up north when the clsest aircraft is still hours away?  Do you wait for them to start a search for people?  No, those of us from the North and from romote areas do not always sit around and wait for that stuff, we go and work around the issues.  This is what CAP needs to learn to do. 

Also, what happens when you can't get an aircraft?  I did a mission several years back where weather was to bad to launch an aircraft, but not a ground team.  This is a common issue in some areas of the country because of weather patterns.  Alaska anyone? 

We need to practice for this because if we do not, then the day we do have to go through this we will look bad.

[Eclipse]

Yes, by all means let's just dig deep and find every reason we can to stay in the stone age.

BTDT - we're moving forward, if you'd like to come with, great, if not, enjoy, just don't stand in the doorway.

[docbiochem33]

It is not staying in the stone age, it is preparing for when the stone age comes to us.  Seen it happen when I was on AD and don't want it to happen here.  The med cen I worked at lost the computer for 2 days and people were lost.  Those of us that had been in field units just pulled out the old forms and did notes by hand.  People in other areas that were used to always using the computer were lost.  It was funny because the field guys would have to find the docs and nurses forms for blood work, exams, and whatever.  We were trained not to rely on anything in the computers.  We functioned fine.  All the people who relied on the computer to do everything were lost.

I also have had the joy of traveling to places where the stone age is still there.  The people that have internet are lucky and can afford satellite connections.

Also I just went through a storm here and whole areas of the county were in trouble because we experienced a derecho.  I didn't have any internet for days.  I had some cell service, but for several hours after I couldn't get through to people because the system was overloaded.  These are the realities of a disaster.  Never rely on something that can fail when you need it most.

[Eclipse]

Never rely on something that can fail when you need it most.

There is nothing ever manufactured or used by man, including himself that would not fall into that definition.

We are not AD, and we are not first responders - when we arrive, infrastructure is coming back online, or we bring it in ourselves (or FEMA brings it for us).
You do not define systems, especially in a paradigm like CAP, for lowest-common-denominator "always worst case" scenarios.  We do not operate in those
situations on a regular enough basis to justify it.

We operate in an environment that assumes localized disasters or searches, with less-than-Armageddon effects on infrastructure.  Backup plans are
always necessary, but that isn't where you start.

Believe it or not, there are actually people who think this kind of thing through and plan contingencies. I realize that we exist in a world
where a leading piece of technology eats power like a black hole, yet has no ability to swap batteries, but that doesn't mean you simply
shut down at 3pm if you can't find an outlet.

Batteries, generators, spare equipment, and logical planning means you're not dependant on the grid or Edison, and the reality is that if things
are that bad, we're not there.

[AirDX]

the reality is that if things are that bad, we're not there.

That's your reality, in the middle of Illinois or wherever it is.  Mine is the most isolated inahabited islands in the world, and the electric co. tells me if we get smacked by a hurricane, it may take 3 months to get the power back on.  I guess we'll put the ICP in California...

[Eclipse]

the reality is that if things are that bad, we're not there.

That's your reality, in the middle of Illinois or wherever it is.  Mine is the most isolated inhabited islands in the world, and the electric co. tells me if we get smacked by a hurricane, it may take 3 months to get the power back on.  I guess we'll put the ICP in California...

Then you clearly and obviously have a completely different paradigm then the lower 48, and one would assume that you as an isolated society and a CAP member in that case would plan accordingly.  Just as GT's who have a desert AOR have to have additional training and equipment, as do pilots who
fly in the mountains.

That doesn't shape the general plan, for most members, in most units.

[AirDX]

Then you clearly and obviously have a completely different paradigm then the lower 48, and one would assume that you as an isolated society and a CAP member in that case would plan accordingly.  Just as GT's who have a desert AOR have to have additional training and equipment, as do pilots who
fly in the mountains.

That doesn't shape the general plan, for most members, in most units.

So quit talking in absolutes, like your particular situation fits for everyone.  It does not.

[Eclipse]

Then you clearly and obviously have a completely different paradigm then the lower 48, and one would assume that you as an isolated society and a CAP member in that case would plan accordingly.  Just as GT's who have a desert AOR have to have additional training and equipment, as do pilots who
fly in the mountains.

That doesn't shape the general plan, for most members, in most units.

So quit talking in absolutes, like your particular situation fits for everyone.  It does not.

It fits the >vast< majority of CAP members and the missions we perform.

[umpirecali]

There is nothing ever manufactured or used by man, including himself that would not fall into that definition.

except duct tape