Is GSAR about to get its due in CAP?

[RiverAux]

I've been pointing out for years that ground SAR operations are much more likely to result in saves than Air SAR and that GSAR is really an open field where CAP has the ability to become the dominant player as I'm pretty confident that most counties where CAP units exist don't have any local GSAR capabilities.  Even though it is the largest GSAR organization in the world, this aspect of SAR is marginalized in CAP to a great extent and gets very little focus or attention. 

The latest issue of the Volunteer points out the changing face of SAR in CAP and highlights how big a factor GSAR is becoming in our total saves record.  24/32 saves were from ground SAR. 

Perhaps this will finally start to sink in with our leaders and they will begin to devote more time, and more importantly, more money to GSAR equipment and training.  Maybe Wing Commanders will finally realize that they and their staff need to spend more time developing relationships with county emergency managers in every county in the state and not just the few that have CAP units in them. 

Perish the though, but maybe GSAR will stop being seen as some pesky little cadet fun-time activity and an important CAP mission. 

Sure, there are one or two states where local agencies really don't need CAP to do GSAR, but those are the extreme minority.  In most of the country CAP could become the go-to agency for GSAR assistance. 

Sadly, I doubt it.  Rather CAP is going to spend more time and money trying to obtain equipment and develop skill sets for missions that only a tiny percentage of CAP aircraft are going to be involved in. 

[Walkman]

One of the issues with the lack of a bigger GSAR budget has to do with our appearance to outside agencies. We show up to help in a missing aircraft search with an ancient L'Per that looks like a bad prop from a 1950's Cold War movie and what are people to think. Not to mention the extremely wide variety of gear we carry. One GTM is wearing 'Nam era ALICE gear standing next to another one wearing a black Airsoft tac vest with a hunter's vest on top of that while the next guy is wearing a blue hiking backpack.

I've often day-dreamed about being rich and buying everyone in my unit the same hi-quality 24 hr gear and a nice new digital DF'ing unit so we could show up at a mission and look like we know what we're doing.

[NIN]

Nevermind the 72 year old Lt Col who shows up in a battered old Chevy van with 8 "kids" wearing cotton uniforms, non-insulated & non-waterproof black leather combat boots and a mish-mash of M1952-pattern and later web gear at a mountainous SAR location and acts like the professional and volunteer mountain SAR teams in their goretex and techincal gear can go home cuz the "pros" are there.

Seriously.  In some states, CAP isn't even invited to the table for Ground SAR because it is not a legitimate SAR asset, and might, in fact, be a liability.

Until CAP starts to embrace national level training certification to the same levels of other SAR organizations, emphasizes functionality of equipment over blind obedience to the uniform manual (as evidenced by how long it took to get military-standard GoreTex authorized), and gets *serious* about how to does GSAR business, it will never be considered a player in anything but flatland SAR.

showing up to haul your butt up over a mountain on foot while the other teams have snow machines or 4-wheelers ("Sorry, a kid flipped a 4-wheeler at an airshow about 8 years ago, so we can't use them") says "We're not real serious about this."

[Devil Doc]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

[ol'fido]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

[Devil Doc]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

So, why are these Search Managers and IC making the decisions but not involving CAP? It seems like to me certain "Teams" are trying to be the Elite, when in fact they are not. It all comes down to Funding, IMHO. Why isnt NHQ making strides for these ICs to accept CAP? CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified. I know NIN is right, but how can we fix it?

[JeffDG]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

So, why are these Search Managers and IC making the decisions but not involving CAP? It seems like to me certain "Teams" are trying to be the Elite, when in fact they are not. It all comes down to Funding, IMHO. Why isnt NHQ making strides for these ICs to accept CAP? CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified. I know NIN is right, but how can we fix it?

Why is it NHQ's job to do this?

These SAR managers are local folks, county EMAs, state EMAs.  It's the job of Wings (state EMAs), and squadrons or groups (county EMAs) to put a good foot forward.

Not everything has a "national" solution.

[Devil Doc]

Ok then Wing Level should get active. Our CAP unit trains all the time and keep it touch with the County/State EMs. Its the NASAR Qaul that they keep throwing back into our face. It kinda earks me some. Its kinda like saying Only Chevys can work, FORDS can stand back and watch. It is just a preference.

[RiverAux]

Until CAP starts to embrace national level training certification to the same levels of other SAR organizations,

What a total non-issue.  The only real differences between CAP standards and NASAR relates to tasks that CAP isn't going to do anyway (high-angle stuff). 

emphasizes functionality of equipment over blind obedience to the uniform manual

Pretty much anytime I've seen a CAP ground team in the same place as local FD/PD going out into the woods, the CAP ground team is way better equipped and prepared.  Our folks bring water and aren't wearing tennis shoes....  That being said, our manuals could be better in dealing with the extreme weather situations, but what we have works most places most of the time. 

gets *serious* about how to does GSAR business

absolutely true. 

[Devil Doc]

So, why is Time and time Again CAP is not Included. I really think it has to be a "Funding" and "Liability" issue. Who cares if we have mix matched gear? It seems like every Volunteer Rescue Squad/Firefighter want new gear or more funding, so CAP is not going to take that away from them.

[RiverAux]

In most places CAP isn't included because we don't make the effort to prioritize GSAR operations and don't publicize these capabilities to the local agencies who are going to be the ones asking for help. 

It takes about 1 minute to explain why liability won't be an issue if they request CAP the right way. 

[sardak]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

but how can we fix it?

There are SAR classes which we could require for members to become qualified as IC, PSC, OSC, GBD, AOBD and GTL. These classes have been around far longer than the current CAP ES curriculum and we haven't required them yet, so...

Mike

[Devil Doc]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

but how can we fix it?

There are SAR classes which we could require for members to become qualified as IC, PSC, OSC, GBD, AOBD and GTL. These classes have been around far longer than the current CAP ES curriculum and we haven't required them yet, so...

Mike

What makes them classes you listed "Elite" over the CAP ES System?

[NIN]

In most places CAP isn't included because we don't make the effort to prioritize GSAR operations and don't publicize these capabilities to the local agencies who are going to be the ones asking for help. 

It takes about 1 minute to explain why liability won't be an issue if they request CAP the right way.

That might work where you're at in the flatland. (not saying that in a bad way: I grew up in basically flat Michigan, and the bulk of my original SAR training & work was started there)

But here where I live now, the Department of Fish & Game is the Primary SAR Agency for the state, and for anything occurring basically north of where I live, CAP did not get the call to help when it came to the ground work.  Heck, CAP seldom got the call for anything but non-distress ELT turn-offs and ramp checks south of me, either.

For the aforementioned reasons, too.  The Fish & Game guys got tired to having the CAP guys show up and act like they were the only game in town, that the other groups and teams were clearly "second rate" and then not have the ability to deliver.

I've been in the mountains in the winter. It is not a place to be if you are not equipped and prepared.  And CAP ground teams (generally speaking) are not appropriately equipped and prepared for that SAR environment.  I know, because I was not equipped and prepared.  I couldn't be.  For the time, couldn't have Goretex, gaiters, non-issue boots, etc.  Plus, we all know (and have discussed this a zillion times here) the CAP penchant for "Better be in the right uniform all the time, no matter what!"

I'm not saying we have to do high-angle rescue, because there are other teams out there that practice that stuff constantly.   But I am saying that you have to
a) Be able to get to & into the search area.  A 2WD Ford Econoline is not that tool for that;
b) Be able to physically handle the terrain and conditions (most CAP folks that I know are *not* equipped or trained for that);
c) Be able to avoid becoming a search and recovery objective yourself;
d) Be able to work and play well with others in the battlespace.

I played the SAR game here for 5-6 years.  Once I realized that we were never going to get called for anything more complex/involved than straight up UDF silencing of non-distress ELTs, it really took the sheen off the desire for readiness.   My cadets saw right thru the sham, as well.  They'd do the monthly/quarterly SAREXs with their big and involved crashed airplane scenarios replete with air to ground coordination and all the usual ground SAR jim-jam, but then they'd hear about a real live search and we'd would not get the call.

We had an active ground team for a few years. Cocked and locked, call down rosters ready, practiced, trained, stuff all packed, etc. 

But then you'd get up in the morning and see the email that said "Capt I-Got-No-Life replied to the emailed alert for resources at 1230 this morning and silenced the ELT found at the capital city's municipal airport at 0245.."

On more than one occasion, I'd be like "Wait, we had an ELT right in our back yard and nobody called us?"

(yes, the wing alerting officer would get the call from AFRCC and he would send out an email to the wing requesting assistance. He would NEVER call anybody. This is before people had smart phones that pinged at every email.   One of our comm guys was a broadcast engineer who kept odd hours, so he'd see the email and leap on the mission. I very publicly asked why the alerting officer refused to alert the ground team from the squadron that met at the airport the ELT was suspected to be at,  and why in god's name was he using EMAIL to send out mission alerting in the first place, and he would just shrug his shoulders and say "Well, thats the way it is..."  Wait, WHAT?)

My cadets and officers just got tired of being on hair trigger alert for the mission that would never come.  And they saw thru the fact that all these scenarios we trained for all the time were essentially "pie in the sky," because the Fish & Game people were not ever going to invite our ground assets to the party.  Kind of sucks to put all this time and effort into learning how to play football, only to later find out that there is no 'big game'.

In late 2007, my wife's cousin's father-in-law got lost while hunting in a local state park (I literally lived about 2-3 miles from there). Fish & Game actually called CAP for Ground SAR.  I was flabbergasted / stunned.  I saw it on the news coverage.  Its winter in the northeast, and they showed a bunch of people standing around. All the cadets were wearing their white pistol belts, orange ascots and hats, whistles, white bootlaces (I could be wrong about the latter, but that sticks in my mind).  It just looked "stupid".  They didn't look like they were ready to go tromping thru a heavily wooded and snow covered state park in November and be equipped for the weather.  But hey, man, those hats were well-crimped.

This is just one aspect of the stuff I mean:  CAP is well-intending, but ultimately they're either not appropriately equipped or not appropriately staffed. These cadets I saw were wearing mesh baseball caps and orange ascots, cotton uniforms and black uninsulated combat boots.  Its DECEMBER in snow, people.  Wear a winter hat and a @#$% coat, for god's sake.  Ditch your ranger bling bling for something that closely approximates the gear for the job. 

Years ago, a gentleman from the SAR school up in the mountains came to talk to a local unit at their annual banquet.  They did SAR in the mountains. Crampons, snow cats, ice axes, technical mountain climbing fabrics (coats and such), etc.   These people spent a crapload of money on gear and training. And they trained, frequently.  In the mountains. In the winter.

Most CAP ground teams don't have that kind of time, commitment, money or resources.

[sardak]

What makes them classes you listed "Elite" over the CAP ES System?

Nothing makes "them classes 'Elite' " because they aren't. The point is that CAP doesn't require, nor even provide, any SAR management or theory training for our ES management staff on the air or ground side. See this discussion for the latest, but certainly not the only, discussion of this topic: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16761.0

Here is a true story for perspective. The weekend AFRCC SAR Management Class (SMC), also called the Basic Inland SAR Course (BISC), was being offered in a wing. CAP members were given first chance to sign-up as the class has a maximum enrollment of 24 to 30, I'm not sure. After two months of soliciting CAP members to attend, only four signed up. The class was opened up to the general SAR community in the state and the class was filled in four hours. What message do you suppose that sent to AFRCC and the SAR powers in the state?

Not all organizations require their management personnel to attend SAR management and theory classes. Those that want to bring themselves up to a professional level, not "Elite," require or highly recommend these classes. The majority of these aren't paid professional organizations, but rather are volunteer professional organizations, which is what CAP should strive to be.

Mike

[John Bryan]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

[John Bryan]

There are FEMA Position-Specific Training courses....for Incident Commanders this is EMI E/L 950...This should be taken after ICS 300 and 400 as well as the IMT Team course.

Most agencies then have task books that must be signed off so you can be quilified. Also FEMA, USDA (Forest Service) and others type their levels differently then we do.

[RiverAux]

Sadly, NIN's tale of woe is not unique to GSAR issues and much the same sort of thing has happened in many aspects of CAP's ES operations in the past. 

However, most of the issues can be easily addressed if CAP made GSAR a priority.  As it stands now, GSAR is left pretty much at the mercy of a very few number of people who take any interest in it at all and in that sort of environment all sorts of things can get out of whack.

And it isn't a lack of 4-wheelers or Hummers that keeps CAP ground teams out of the fight across most of the country.  Most people get lost in areas that are not that hard to access using typical vehicles OR are in areas so rugged that it won't matter what vehicle you drove in, you're still going to be hiking to the search area. 

[SarDragon]

It's all about training, attitudes, and perceptions.

CAP has never done all of the right training to be truly competent in the ground SAR arena. What we do is mostly good, but it doesn't go far enough, especially outside of the flat land areas. Most of the 'pro' SAR folks have much more relevant training than does CAP.

CAP folks have showed up with some pretty crappy attitudes, as has been noted above. Many CAP folks still haven't learned to play nicely with others. This is essential in the SAR arena. Most SAR is under the purview of a state agency. It's THEIR ball game. We participate at their pleasure.

Which brings me to the third point - perceptions. When the movers and shakers see and hear CAP show up, they, frankly, aren't positively impressed. The CAP units in my county have just in the past couple of years gotten past the bad blood from 10 or 15 years ago, brought about by exhibiting exactly the behaviour described above.

[Stonewall]

What message do you suppose that sent to AFRCC and the SAR powers in the state?

In my experience as a DCWG member usually operating in conjunction with VAWG and the VA Dept. of ES, all of those volunteer SAR organizations (in that state, anyway) are exactly that, VOLUNTEERS.  The difference between us and them, as I saw it, was that many of those folks were under employed, save for a few of the full-timers.  However, us CAPers were gainfully employed as professionals OUTSIDE of SAR/EMS/ES. 

In 1996 I went to a VA DES Field Team Member and Field Team Leader course that was required to operate in Virginia (unless you were mutual aid).  It was me and 3 other CAP senior members who took a day of leave (Friday) for each of the 3 day courses.  But it was plagued with a crap ton of these Volunteer SAR folks, like hundreds, there for a variety of courses from Sign Cutting to FTM.  They were mostly hourly employed types, working everything from Jiffy Lube to Radio Shack and would give up (call out, lose) their jobs to attend a "must have" course or the end_of_the_world lost person search that would likely make them the hero of the day.  Meanwhile, us CAP seniors had to return to our suit-wearing, gun toting, or ultra secret squirrel type jobs that provided us with salaries and benefits, but enough time to attend weekly CAP meetings and the occasional 2 day weekend activity unless we took vacation time to attend a full-blown week long activity (which I reserved for NCSA, encampment, or RSC).

Of course, this is one slice out of a state, and doesn't speak for the entire US.  But I'm sure there are many people willing to give up more to attend SMC or other high-end SAR courses available out there.

[sardak]

The difference between us and them, as I saw it, was that many of those folks were under employed...

That's too bad. That was not and has not been our experience.

Mike

[Devil Doc]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

[Texas Raiders]

I had a conversation with my chief the other day regarding CAP.  He is aware that there is a squadron in town, but that's about it.  Here are some questions he asked me. 

Civil Air Patrol who?-  Who is CAP?
Civil Air Patrol what?-  What do they do?  What kind of resources and capabilities do they provide?  What kind of training and qualifications do they have?
Civil Air Patrol why?- Why call them?  Are they proficient?  Are they consistent?
Civil Air Patrol where?-  Where are these CAP resources?
Civil Air Patrol when?-  When can I use them?  Can I call for them anytime?
Civil Air Patrol how?-  How do I use them?  How do I call them when I need them?  How long will I wait for them to mobilize?  How will I know that they will respond at all?

I don't know how it is in other regions, but I know that there is a lot of uncertainty and hesitation when calling upon certain volunteer organizations around here.  I was able to answer most of those questions for him, but I was left wondering what CAP does to educate people so they don't have to ask those questions.  Needless to say, I earned myself the assignment of contacting the local squadron and gathering research for the chief.  Thoughts?

[Stonewall]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Heh, as a government employee you really don't know how good you have it.  As someone who has worked both as a federal employee and in the private sector, the only people I know that have it better than government employees seems to be people who work at banks.  This is especially true when it comes to paid holidays and vacation time.

[Flying Pig]

In the case of my CAP just clogs up the machine.  We have our own aircraft, however, there have been needs where a CAP highbird has been useful when used.  As far as ground teams.   CAP GT's are nothing more than volunteers with whistles and canteens.  I mean that seriously.  Even search bases that Ive been to with CAP are night and day compared to the command structure I have seen on SARs that do not involve CAP.   CAP members cant fly on aircraft, cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days, arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover. Cant rappel, cant fast rope, cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license.  Most of the time, they are showing up with junk in regards to gear and vehicles.  We dont want kids showing up to assist on our SARs.   LE SAR members are being flown to search grids and dropped off because the search area is 20 miles from the Command Post, while CAP members set out on foot, so they end up, if they do get invited, being tasked with busy work that is of pretty low priority. 

If you want to just saturate an area with people in orange vests calling the victims name, CAP would be an asset.  Beyond the simple things, CAP GTs become a liability.  If its all an area has, sure, better than nothing.  Using CAP in an area that already has professional teams, CAP is not of any use beyond maybe base support staff with the exclusion of aircraft.  THis isnt a pilot vs GT argument.  Its just based on my experiences being both CAP and LE SAR at the same time.  All a CAP unit can do is try to gain the trust of their local areas and go from there.   In large disasters where multiple Fed agencies show up, Yes, CAP gets in and gets involved.  On the local levels, my experience is that CAP is a pain in the behind to try to deal with. 

[RogueLeader]

In a 2 for 2 GT missions for Wyoming, CAP has finds, even with "Professional" SAR teams on site.

[Devil Doc]

Why cant we ride in other planes and other county vehicles? Last time i checked SMs can. Im not talking about cadets when it comes to SAR. SMs can do anything an LE can do when is comes to SAR (exept carry weapons/detain, etc)

[NC Hokie]

Ok then Wing Level should get active. Our CAP unit trains all the time and keep it touch with the County/State EMs. Its the NASAR Qaul that they keep throwing back into our face. It kinda earks me some. Its kinda like saying Only Chevys can work, FORDS can stand back and watch. It is just a preference.

NCWG is active in this, but the simple fact is that the ones doing the calling (County and State EMs) are the ones that set the rules. The answer for now has to be to suck it up, get the NASAR quals to show the players in your AOR that you're "serious" about SAR, and then perform in an exemplary manner when the opportunity arises.

Please feel free to contact me privately if you want to discuss the specifics of our wing further.

[sarmed1]

.....CAP members cant fly on aircraft, cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days, arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover. Cant rappel, cant fast rope, cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license.  ...

Except for the fast rope part, most of these are a dont/wont vs cant.


mk

[SJFedor]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

And this is a big reason why CAP isn't called too much for GSAR. You can't go to whomever runs SAR in your area and say "we've got all these resources! And we're great.....as long as you call after 5pm on weekdays, or on weekends". Not very helpful when you're doing planning.

Whereas the more professional teams seem to 1) have the toys/equipment to get the job done, 2) have the committed manpower to get it done.

Look up Nashville OEM. Their ESU is all volunteer, and responds all over the mid-state for incidents. SAR, dive rescue, swift water, etc etc. They're VERSATILE, which is a big key when the people who make decisions are thinking about who to call. They'd rather make 1 phone call and know that, regardless of what's going on, the people they called can handle it, instead of calling CAP, wading through an inordinate amount of rules and paperwork, and maybe getting a smattering of people, most of which have no credible training other than what CAP provides in house, which I'm sorry to say, hasn't caught up with the times.

[JayT]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Unfortunately, emergencies don't always happen 'after work or on the weekends.' Also, you can't discount cadets who make up a goodly percentage of CAP's GSAR capacity last I remember. Just because you 'can' do what an 'LE' can do, doesn't mean you're trained, equipped, and insured to do it.

[NIN]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Unfortunately, emergencies don't always happen 'after work or on the weekends.' Also, you can't discount cadets who make up a goodly percentage of CAP's GSAR capacity last I remember. Just because you 'can' do what an 'LE' can do, doesn't mean you're trained, equipped, and insured to do it.

In some states, they specifically disallow individuals under the age of 18 from participating in SAR.

CAP's rules aside, you basically don't get allowed to play in the sandbox if you show up with a ground team of < 18 year old cadets.

[Walkman]

In some states, they specifically disallow individuals under the age of 18 from participating in SAR.

That was the rule in Utah when I lived there. When I first started with CAP I was stoked about GSAR. I love the whole idea of it. However, after 5 years of pining for training and missions, I've switched to focusing on air ops. It's not my favorite thing, as I'm still working on getting a handle on air sickness, but when I look at the number of SAR, DR and CD mission my wing does now it's the only way to really be included in anything real.

That said, we are the Aux of the Air Force, so is it really that surprising that we focus on air ops more than GSAR?

[John Bryan]

So as to the getting off work issue....not all CAP members work Mon to Fri 9 to 5....like any volunteer ES group we need to recruit enough people and types of people to be able to respond night or day. This is a struggle we share with every volunteer fire dept or rescue squad out there.  Many volunteer fire depts where I live have a harder time getting folks to respond weekdays but they find a way.

I think this is the bigger issue....we are volunteers but are we going to be volunteer professionals like volunteer fire fighters or are we going to be  volunteer amateurs like CERT and VOAD....I really think this is the $64,000 question.

Some states, like Indiana require employers to release CAP members in most cases for real world missions.

As for the under 18 thing...this is a case by case and as said state by state issue. As I have stated in past discussions most life guards in most state and local parks are under 18. Some volunteer fire dept let cadets or juniors respond to calls with limitations on some things they can do. For 40 years, Post 53 has provided the town of Darien, CT with emergency medical services, while providing local high school students with an opportunity to serve their community.

[Eclipse]

CAP members cant fly on aircraft,

Says who?  Not CAP rules.

cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days,

Um?  What? 

arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover.

You or CAP?

Cant rappel, cant fast rope,

Not our job.

cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license. 

Says who?

Most of the time, they are showing up with junk in regards to gear and vehicles. 

For the most part I'll leave that on the table, except to say, "Sorry if the people showing up for FREE, on their OWN TIME,
who have paid for their own crappy gear and vehicles, don't measure up to the "professionals".

I'll say this, at least in my parts, we are constantly being compared to EMAs, and "local SAR groups".  These organizations
are spoken of in hushed tones, with reverence...until you meet them.  They show up in ad hoc groups of 3-5, no uniform
to speak of, driving HAM-Sexy death traps, and 1/3rd of them are single-animal dog "teams" where one soccer mom
bought a beagle and realized she can write off the kibble if she goes to a "tracker" class.  Then it's a 501-filing and
she's a "team".

If things aren't happening, it's because of the failure of the local leadership.  This is not something NHQ can fix.

I do agree, however, with those who understand that if CAP is to be taken seriously, everywhere, then those
who think that "GT's are for cadets" need to just make an exit.  Until GTs sit at the same table as the aircrews,
nothing will change.

[Devil Doc]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

[JayT]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

Becareful what you wish for, otherwise your managers might give you all the time in the world to volunteer....

[Flying Pig]

Sorry if the people showing up for FREE, on their OWN TIME, who have paid for their own crappy gear and vehicles, don't measure up to the "professionals".

Nobody cares about the plight of the poor volunteer.  You either can or you cant.  Maybe EMA's in certain areas are seeing that CAP'ers arent any different, any better equipped or any better trained than the chick you talked about with the beagle writing off her dog food, so why deal with them? 

Interesting observation though..... we have a 30 member volunteer SAR component to our department team.  They pay for their own gear, a lot of their own training.  Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities.  You are laying CAP on the table with a "FREE" sign attached and in certain areas, nobody is picking it up. Keep sitting by the phone making excuses  if you want ..... but face it, for some reason she aint callin' you back.  Maybe something to be learned there. 

THe problem with CAP is that is isnt attached to anything local.  Its on its own.  Sheriffs have their Reserves and volunteer SAR Posses.  Fire Depts have Reserves and Volunteer fire fighters, Police have their Reserve Officers.  Anyone see the connection?  Its a known factor.  CAP is not.  They dont know anything about your training, your experience, they cant control you.  You show up and nobody knows anything about you.  You are just another volunteer group looking to play and they are not required to find you a place at the table.  Good Luck though.  Reminding everyone you are a poor volunteer is always a party favorite.  And bringing kids?  I agree 100%....Not a great way to start the show in the real world.

[Devil Doc]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

Becareful what you wish for, otherwise your managers might give you all the time in the world to volunteer....

That would mean i would have no job I have a 5 month old, hes a handful, and expensive 

[Eclipse]

Interesting observation though..... we have a 30 member volunteer SAR component to our department team.  They pay for their own gear, a lot of their own training.  Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities. 

And who does all the "safety, liability, and eservices administration"? 

Oh, right - the professional department they are attached to - and I'll bet a Venti that department spends plenty on
"lame" safety, liability, ribbons, and administration.

Comparing a volunteer component of a professional department isn't exactly cricket.

[Flying Pig]

Interesting observation though..... we have a 30 member volunteer SAR component to our department team.  They pay for their own gear, a lot of their own training.  Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities. 

And who does all the "safety, liability, and eservices administration"? 

Oh, right - the professional department they are attached to - and I'll bet a Venti that department spends plenty on
"lame" safety, liability, ribbons, and administration.

Comparing a volunteer component of a professional department isn't exactly cricket.

Nope.  They are a self supporting 501(c)(3).  But good try though.  As far as what the department spends on its paid full time employees is irrelevant.  We are talking about volunteers. 

[Eclipse]

Nope.  They are a self supporting 501(c)(3).  But good try though.  As far as what the department spends on its paid full time employees is irrelevant.  We are talking about volunteers.

Are they attached to your department or not?  You characterized them as a "component" of your department's SAR team.
The vagaries of their "separation" is for the lawyers, not the practical reality.  Are you also saying that a SAR team your
department utilizes never discusses safety or liability and does no administration?  Or perhaps the meetings you see don't include that? Any more then a SAREx will include CDI sessions or launching rockets.

You and I generally agree on most topics, but you laid down a bunch of literally "made up facts", and then are trying to compare
a small SAR group attached to one department to a national organization that has more missions then SAR.

And you're ignoring the political atmosphere of your state that prevents a lot of CAP inclusion - namely the sheriffs who
don't really want to play with anyone.

[Flying Pig]

Im not seeing the confusion. I thought I laid it out pretty well. "Made up facts". Hmmm. that would make me a liar. Just figured Id give some incite as someone whos done both CAP and paid, professional, full time SAR. Good luck in your quest to be relevant.

[Eclipse]

Im not seeing the confusion. I thought I laid it out pretty well. "Made up facts". Hmmm. that would make me a liar. Just figured Id give some incite as someone whos done both CAP and paid, professional, full time SAR. Good luck in your quest to be relevant.

Why the 'tude?

And as to "made up facts" - see my rebuttal to your multi-faceted assertion about who can ride where and do what.

And...

...is that SAR team attached to your department or not?

[wuzafuzz]

The local SAR team in my county is also a 501(c)(3).  They have a memorandum of understanding with the county sheriff detailing responsibilities and describing what each organization provides for the other.  I think that's a pretty common setup.  They are darn good at what they do, so there is almost no local need for CAP GSAR.  UDF is about the only mission that gets to play on the ground.  Frankly, in that environment training cadets as GTMs amounts to little more than a merit badge.

I've heard there is an increasing trend for public safety agencies to bring volunteers in-house.  That was a significant discussion topic during a DHS AUXCOMM class I took last year.  According to the instructors, gov't departments are tired of volunteer groups showing up with a collection of goobers dressed like generals, driving their own "response vehicles," acting like God's gift to the served agency, and quite possibly criminal deviants in their midst.  Plus "outside" volunteer groups have a tendency to wax and wane as members come and go, suffer from internal politics, etc.  That makes them unpredictable.  How many people can they really field?  Can they really deliver on their promises?  Who else are they beholden to?  Will any of them go rogue and embarrass us on TV?

Bringing volunteers under their own umbrella allows served agencies to run background checks on their helpers, control how they dress, who they talk to, guide and manage their training, and so on.  Plus they have a much better idea of their volunteers' talents and capabilities.  They want to know what they can count on from you. 

CAP falls victim to the perceptions described above.  Sometimes it's earned, sometimes not.  Either way it's still a reality we face when dealing with emergency managers.  For CAP to earn and maintain a seat at the table requires us to build solid relationships, maintain consistent training programs, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot with unprofessional behavior.  Even if your local CAP GSAR team totally rocks the SAR mission, you can get torpedoed by a team of wannabe losers on the other side of the state.  Sheriff's go to meetings with other sheriffs and talk about such things.  Be prepared to play defense and prove you are worthy.  If you aren't trained and practiced to a professional standard, just stay away from GSAR.  Renewing GTM3 every few years isn't good enough.

[RiverAux]

Sheriffs have their Reserves and volunteer SAR Posses. 

You mean that a small percentage of sheriffs have volunteer SAR groups in some states.  In my state fewer than 10% of counties have any sort of SAR team. 

[PHall]

Sheriffs have their Reserves and volunteer SAR Posses. 

You mean that a small percentage of sheriffs have volunteer SAR groups in some states.  In my state fewer than 10% of counties have any sort of SAR team.

Who has the primary responsibility for SAR in your state?

In many states (California for example) the Sherriff of each County has responsibility for all SAR activities in their county.
Which is why many Sherriff Departments have Volunteer SAR Teams.

[bosshawk]

I am in CA and am a member of the local Sheriff's SAR team.  We have three or four deputies as team leaders with one Sgt as the Team Chief, as an additional duty.  The deputies run the team for training and deployments.  There is one volunteer who does admin, one who is the treasurer and a couple who head up subordinate units like deep water, ropes, four wheel and the like.  I am the one and only pilot and I own an airplane which I use once in awhile.  This team is recognized as one of the better ones in this part of the state.  We operate in big mountains(called the Sierras), so it is pretty serious stuff.  In my nine or ten years on this team, CAP has never been asked to play and there are three or four CAP Sqs within commuting distance.  In fact, I would bet that CAP never crosses the minds of those putting a search into use.  I am two counties over from Flying Pig and our respective SAR teams occasionally are asked to provide mutual aid, which is provided by MOU.  Typically, we can put a team out in the field in an hour: waiting two days for CAP would not be a realistic scenario.  In fact, my impression in CA is that CAP GTs are not players, in most cases.  There recently was a search for a missing airplane and I am told that getting four or five of the 28 aircraft in CAWG was a lesson in futility.

[Devil Doc]

I have noticed it is hard to get a plane, unless it is a Air Force designated misson. I understand how a few bad apples in CAP can spoil the whole organization. But in CAPs defense thats like saying that so and so county Sherrifs messed up, does that make all Sherriffs bad? I do understand the all the points made. What i am not understanding is, i have always learned the more the meerier, wouldnt you want alot of help from alot of different organizations when doing SAR? Even if its handing out water, working the First Aid Tent, Working Communications, Signing people in. The more people you have, the more you can roatate groups, rest people in need, have broader searches.

[Texas Raiders]

The term "volunteer professional" is an oxymoron, while "volunteer amateur" actually compliments itself, a pleonasm.  There is no such thing as a volunteer professional.  Although, volunteers commonly use the word professional to describe their conduct.  I know, I've been a volunteer in one fashion or another for 19 years. 

Volunteer is defined as -1. a person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking. 2. a person who performs a service willingly and without pay.

Amateur is defined as -1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.  2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.  3. a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity.

Professional is defined as - 1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain.  2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession.


If an incident commander knows that he or she can call upon a professional/career agency, they will likely do so.  They know exactly what they're going to get.  I've been both a volunteer and a professional firefighter.  I can tell you from my experiences that the two don't compare well. There are very few instances (I am aware of some) when a volunteer can demonstrate the same level of proficiency and consistency of a professional.  Everyone wants to believe that they are good at what they do.  However, in the case of a volunteer, you find yourself having to continually prove it.  If you read my previous post, you'll find a list of questions that my chief had for me regarding CAP.  I think the answers to those questions make up the very basic information we should be providing to the agencies we desire to work with. 

I am still not able to find a clear definition of CAP's role in SAR nor exactly what kind of specific SAR activities CAP engages in.  What does CAP want us to do?  In my 19 year relationship with CAP, I have always been under the impression that we specialize in "aviation" related SAR, meaning.....an aircraft goes down and we go look for it.  It sounds as though a number of people want to participate in SAR regardless of the nature, which is fine.  I understand that everyone wants to play.  I personally don't think that we should participate in "LE" SAR.  There is a lot of unecessary risk and uncertainty involved in it.  Do we know the factors leading to an "LE" search?  Why is this person missing?  Do they want to be found?  Then again, maybe I don't understand what people are referring to as "LE" SAR.  When a plane goes down, the situation is pretty clear.  No?  Furthermore, I don't believe that CAP should be involved in any technical rescue activities until CAP identifies their intentions and qualifies their personnel through proper training and certification.   Search is one thing, do we actually rescue?

[Devil Doc]

I can rescue, I was part of the Chip n Dale Rescue Rangers Club 

I am/was a Medic. I can Save people. Rescue them from the grasp of death, the one they call DOC.

Im A  long haired, sometimes bearded, Marine hatin Sailor with certain medical skills that would go through the very gates of Hell to tend to a wounded Marine. (or Person) 

[Eclipse]

I have noticed it is hard to get a plane, unless it is a Air Force designated misson.

In this context it has to be a mission of some kind, though C-Status would be fine if the customer is paying for it.

That's one of our limitations on the national level.  AFRCC only pays for "people" SAR.

1AF will get involved in HLS stuff, but little else, from there it's either self-funded (bad idea), corporate funded (limitations),
or paid by the customer (as it should be). The latter requires contacts be made well before you need the plane.

With that said, a lot of wings are struggling with flight hours, and the planes are there waiting for the call.

[Flying Pig]

  I personally don't think that we should participate in "LE" SAR.  There is a lot of unecessary risk and uncertainty involved in it.

By LE SAR, I mean SAR teams/missions that are controlled by a law enforcement agency.  Not a suspect search.  In CA, Sheriff's are constitutionally mandated to be responsible for SAR.  I guess other states aren't like that?   Thats why you see Sheriff's Offices in CA with huge SAR capabilities.  They can choose to pass it off, but someone in the Sheriff's Office will be responsible ultimately.  Some do it completely in house, others use outside resources.  Others call in volunteers and have a couple deputies on scene to act as a representative.   

Eclipse, to answer you question, the volunteer SAR is its own entity, that has permission to work under the Sheriff's authority. But they are responsible for themselves, their training, funding, internal issues, etc.  They do train with the departments SAR, but they dont answer to the Sheriff. 

[Texas Raiders]

  I personally don't think that we should participate in "LE" SAR.  There is a lot of unecessary risk and uncertainty involved in it.

By LE SAR, I mean SAR teams/missions that are controlled by a law enforcement agency.  Not a suspect search.   

I figured as much.  I wouldn't expect nor want us to assist in a suspect search either.  I would hope that CAP's involvment in any LE SAR mission would be thoroughly evaluated beforehand. 

[sardak]

In CA, Sheriff's are constitutionally mandated to be responsible for SAR.  I guess other states aren't like that?

Sheriffs are in charge of SAR in most of the western states. California, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Oregon for sure, in Washington it's the "chief law enforcement officer of each political subdivision" and in New Mexico it's the state police. And all of them, for the most part, use volunteer SAR teams either as the primary resource, while a few have their own teams. Even those still typically use volunteers as adjuncts.

Mike

[Eclipse]

In CA, Sheriff's are constitutionally mandated to be responsible for SAR.  I guess other states aren't like that?

I'd have to go read the constitution to actually know for sure, but from a practical perspective I can tell you that's not
the situation in my state, at least where people actually live. The State's EMA has the primary authority for coordinating SAR and DR, and they almost always have to be involved in asking for AFRCC or other help (unless the local authorities ask first).  They
are Federally mandated to have an MOU with AFRCC, but aren't interested in anything beyond that, with CAP, or most other organizations, either.

In the urban areas, municipal law enforcement and fire people are the ones tasked, with the Sheriff's departments being relegated to mostly jail issues until you get into the rural and unincorporated areas.  In the urban and small suburbs there's a whole lot of mutual aid, but little to no SAR teams that aren't directly charted by a city or county, etc.

When you get to the farm and rural areas where volunteer fire and part-time police are the norm, manpower is an ongoing issue and there are ad hoc SAR teams and single-resources deals all over the place.  In a good deal of those areas, CAP is
on the -first call list and we have had a lot of activity in missing persons, including command and control in the last few years.

The reality is the sheriffs and other local resources simply do not have the  expertise that we do in these areas - we're not talking about technical rescue, repelling, or any of that nonsense.  We're talking boots on the ground and eyes in the sky - exactly what we're tasked with and good at.

[FARRIER]

Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities.  You are laying CAP on the table with a "FREE" sign attached and in certain areas, nobody is picking it up. Keep sitting by the phone making excuses  if you want ..... but face it, for some reason she aint callin' you back.  Maybe something to be learned there.

Using Flying Pig's post as a point of reference, wouldn't it be the squadron commanders responsibility to set the tone of the meetings on what training is or is not going to be conducted. Could it be issues with commanders not wanting to take the time to train GTSAR and losing interested members? Or, could it be the commander needs to take the time and start with the members interested and attract new members?

[FARRIER]

In some states, they specifically disallow individuals under the age of 18 from participating in SAR.

Again, NIN's post as a reference point. What is the reasoning behind those States or even individual Counties that prevent use of individuals under 18? Two examples one in the past and one current.

1. When I was a cadet in the 1980's, I took the ground portion of the radiological monitoring training through Larimer County in Colorado. It was conducted by two reserve Air Force LTC's. I had just turned 17 at the time. My squadron commander at the time could have said no. There were three other cadets beside myself, all the same age. I'm guessing he made a decision based on maturity level at the time.

2. The town of Byers in Colorado has no official Explorer type program for it's fire department. What it has is two positions open to two youth's, age 16 to 17 for cadet positions to work under fully qualified EMT's. They have to apply for the positions. They also get some college credit since they are sent through an area community college for some classroom training. They have to commit to two years.

Again, just asking about the reasoning behind the restrictions.

[Eclipse]

Risk, liability, history.

Anyone under 18 is going to be (perceived) as a supervisory burden, for starters, and they also are not going to be
legally responsible for their own actions, including liability for damage, negligence, etc.

I am personally a staunch advocate of cadets being involved in ES, but the unfortunate reality is that the number
of people under 18 who are both a legitimate asset and no factor for increasing the ORM numbers is going to be very small.
Not to mention missing school, etc.

They also don't usually carry their own medical insurance, liability insurance, etc., etc.

For every 15 year old cadet EMT with a full kit and mature attitude, you'll find five who wind up playing Mumblety-peg when they
get bored.  Further, the lack of self-supervision and independent capability makes them generally harder to use.

I have to admit to more then once wishing the cadets we have could be sent as a separate team, or left at base for
rest without having to worry about CPT or simply watching them.

Any place we >can< use them, especially in the ICPs, we >should<, but they should be a marginal portion of the force
and the clear exception in deployment situations.

[sardak]

The second oldest organized SAR team in Colorado is the Arapahoe Rescue Patrol (ARP). Membership on the team is limited to high school students, except for adults who serve on the corporate Board of Directors and oversee operations. The team used to be an Associate Member of the Mountain Rescue Association (not accredited in all three areas - technical rock, search and winter operations). At one point the focus of the team shifted somewhat and the team dropped its MRA membership. The teams serves as Arapahoe County's SAR team. ARP is called out as a mutual aid assest by other teams, even those with an 18 year old minimum age requirement for their own members.  http://www.arapahoerescue.org/

Mike

[sardak]

I am still not able to find a clear definition of CAP's role in SAR nor exactly what kind of specific SAR activities CAP engages in.  What does CAP want us to do?  ...In my 19 year relationship with CAP, I have always been under the impression that we specialize in "aviation" related SAR, meaning.....an aircraft goes down and we go look for it.  It sounds as though a number of people want to participate in SAR regardless of the nature, which is fine.

You won't find a clear definition, not even in CAPR 60-3. The specifics are dependent on how a Wing sees itself and what it wants to do, and how it is perceived by other organizations and governments within a state. At a high level, this is shown in the MOU between each wing, state and AFRCC that Eclipse mentioned.

At the 50,000 foot level in CAP, it is shown in two documents:
1. The Statement of Work (SOW) between CAP and the Air Force. From the SOW:
    2.3.2.1. Search and Rescue/Disaster Relief. CAP shall conduct air/ground search and rescue (SAR) and disaster relief (DR) in response to man-made events or natural disasters.

    2.3.2.3.6. Ground Teams. Ground teams for SAR and DR are permitted.

2. Air Force Instruction 10-2701 ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL
     1.1.1. Emergency Services and Civil Support. CAP maintains the capability to meet Air Force requirements to assist Federal, state, and local agencies and non-governmental organizations during routine and emergency situations. This capability includes aircraft, vehicles, communications equipment and a force of trained volunteers. ...The emergency services program of CAP is the primary mechanism by which CAP supports the Air Force in accomplishing Air Force non-combat missions.

    1.1.1.5. Personnel. The CAP membership constitutes a trained force of personnel capable of responding to national, regional, or local emergencies or major disasters. CAP personnel are divided into two categories: volunteer cadet members (aged 12 –17) and volunteer senior members (aged 18 and older). CAP senior members are the primary personnel to respond to emergencies or disasters.

     2.1. Objective. The Air Force may employ CAP resources to assist the Air Force, Department of Defense and other Federal agencies.Under certain circumstances, the SECAF, or the designee, may assign CAP assets to provide assistance to state or local agencies and non-governmental organizations(NGOs). Examples include: search and rescue...

    2.2.2. Search and Rescue/Disaster Relief. CAP may be assigned to respond to requests for emergency services submitted to the Air Force from other Federal agencies, or from state or local governmental authorities, or from NGOs. These services include, but are not limited to, search and rescue (SAR) and disaster relief (DR).

Mike

[RiverAux]

As usual whenever ground SAR operations are discussed, we get off on the same tangents regarding cadets and the few jurisdictions where local rules and policies make CAP GSAR operations difficult.

However, the fact remains that GSAR is one of CAP's oldest ES missions and there is more potential missions and more potential saves in GSAR than anything else CAP does IF we made it a priority. 

If we made it a priority, would there still be challenges?  Sure, some stupid CAP member is going to mess things up in some local area and poison relationships for years.  Nothing new.  We regularly do the same thing in Air SAR and DR areas. 

Despite our shortcomings, we still are the best trained and equipped GSAR volunteers available in most of the country. 

[FARRIER]

Asking about the cadets involvement wasn't a tangent. It was used as a reason for our non-participation and not being taken seriously. I brought it up for clarification. Sardak (Mike) provided a great example (counter point) of an all High School age team that participates on a regular basis. My personal opinion is that it's used as a red herring.

In Walkman's example where his Chief has asked about looking into CAP as a resource, has there been the reverse happening with CAP going to the State/Local agencies (asking it more of an open ended question)?

[Eclipse]

In Walkman's example where his Chief has asked about looking into CAP as a resource, has there been the reverse happening with CAP going to the State/Local agencies (asking it more of an open ended question)?

That's supposed to be one of the primary jobs of an ESO at the unit and group level, sadly, many units don't even have one,
let alone actually make the effort.

I can tell you from personal experience that when the contacts are made...properly...things get done, and CAP gets busy.

[SJFedor]

Despite our shortcomings, we still are the best trained and equipped GSAR volunteers available in most of the country.

Non-concur. That's a really big statement, and i'm sorry, it's just not true. I've been involved with CAP in 3 different states, plus got to see different things in my real job from other teams in GLR and SER. There are a heck of a lot better trained and equipped teams out there than CAP provides. I'm pretty sure the whole state of California has teams better equipped and trained than their CAWG CAP counterparts. And in my locale, I can absolutely tell you, without a doubt, that the SAR teams here are a lot better equipped and trained than the CAP units.

Dream on.

[isuhawkeye]

River supports his position by looking from a national perspective.  There are virtually no nationally oriented SAR teams who operate consistently in all 50 states so from that point of view CAP is the best equipped and trained. 

The problem with this is that SAR builds locally to meet local needs.  SAR in Colorado looks very different from SAR in Iowa so training and equipment needs vary and drawing even local comparisons on who is better and what is an appropriate minimum is tough.

[RiverAux]

River supports his position by looking from a national perspective.  There are virtually no nationally oriented SAR teams who operate consistently in all 50 states so from that point of view CAP is the best equipped and trained. 

Well, there are none that operate in all 50 states as far as I'm aware of.  And I'm also taking into consideration that most US counties don't have any sort of volunteer SAR teams at all. 

Now, the average volunteer SAR team is probably better skilled than the average CAP ground team, but that is because GSAR is all they do.  GSAR is a tiny part of that ground teams CAP life.  But, if you're a place that has a CAP ground team, but nothing else nearby, then a CAP ground team isn't a bad way to start your search.

However, the purpose of this thread is to point out that there is some possibility that the emphasis on GSAR may increase in CAP, which might address some of the skills and training issues. 

[Spaceman3750]

I think that CAP GTs suffer from the fact that CAP has a lot of stuff going on. The groups that crank out super-high-quality teams are able to do so because ES is all they do. CAP has three missions plus an entire administrative infrastructure to take care of.

Some will say that the answer is more people, but I think that often times those are the same people who get mad at pilots who only want to fly or ground pounders who only want to pound ground.

[Eclipse]

Some will say that the answer is more people, but I think that often times those are the same people who get mad at pilots who only want to fly or ground pounders who only want to pound ground.

The answer, CAP, >is< more people.  More people allows members to specialize, and leaves time to actually do mission related work.

[Walkman]

The answer, CAP, >is< more people.  More people allows members to specialize, and leaves time to actually do mission related work.

Concur. My unit is a composite squadron that was just changed from a cadet squadron last year. While we have enough people to fill the requirements, the focus is still on the cadets. All of the active SMs have some DA that works with the cadets. What that means in my case as ESO is that even when I put together ES training sessions for the SMs on meeting nights, attendance is spotty because lots of people have to attend to cadet work in one way or another. I would love to have 5 new SMs that I could really forge a true, separate SM component to the unit and have them focus on ES training (air & ground).

[RiverAux]

If CAP were to put more emphasis on GSAR and begin to think of it as something other than some sort of quasi-cadet program, I think there is strong potential to recruit enough new adult members specifically interested in GSAR so as to address some of our manpower issues in this area.  For example, the Georgia State Guard is building a pretty strong GSAR program, and if they can do it, I believe we can as well. 

[PHall]

Biggest problem CAP has in the GSAR arena is the fact that the laws governing what we can do are all state/district/territory laws.
The one size fits all approach currently used just does not work.

[Eclipse]

Sorry, I see that as a "one size fits all" excuse.

If you have a trained, ready force, that can do a competent job with reasonable notice, essentially for "free", any legal or jurisdictional issues
can be worked out.

The issue is:

1) Not enough people.

B) No proper definition of purpose and mission from NHQ (see "CAC")

3) Not enough people.

D) No national, or even regional push to have us on the "first call" list with alphabet agencies, especially for DR.

5) Poor standardization of commander expectations in regards to defined responsibilities and allowing commanders to treat the mission like a menu.

F) Not enough people.

7) Conservative NOC and national operations staff who are slow to respond, slow to deploy, will only send bare-bones resources, and ready to disengage as quickly as possible, even when the need is clear and the funding is plentiful. (See Katrina, Kentucky, Sandy and others).

H) Lack of Federal mandate for MOU for DR as is required for SAR.

9) And we could probably use more people.

[RiverAux]

Biggest problem CAP has in the GSAR arena is the fact that the laws governing what we can do are all state/district/territory laws.
The one size fits all approach currently used just does not work.

You do realize, don't you, that CAP faces the same issue in Air SAR?  Yes, there is more federal nose in that particular tent, but we still have managed to navigate these same state laws in just about all of the country such that we have an important role in Air SAR.  It didn't have to turn out that way, but we've spent the time developing the relationships and reap the benefits.  There is no real reason that we couldn't get the same result in GSAR if we put our minds to it. 

[Eclipse]

There is no real reason that we couldn't get the same result in GSAR if we put our minds to it.

I agree, with the caveat that air operations don't look as "easy" as GSAR to most agencies.  Air ops require huge investments in capital and
even larger investments in time for training and maintenance.

"Anyone" can tromp around the woods and "look for stuff", but "airplanes is different".

The other thing we find on a regular basis is that ICS experience, especially larger scale operations, is sorely lacking, especially in more rural areas.  In this arena we are many times ahead of the game, and the most experienced in the room, since the majority of those who
get the training are tactical operators, vs managers and planners, etc.

This is another area CAP is very capable and needs to market better.  (Every time I say "market" I realize just how bad the situation is.  No organization like ours, especially with both a military and governmental affiliation should have to "market" itself. We should simply be on the list. )

[JayT]

This is another area CAP is very capable and needs to market better.  (Every time I say "market" I realize just how bad the situation is.  No organization like ours, especially with both a military and governmental affiliation should have to "market" itself. We should simply be on the list. )

Strong disagree. As long as there's others providing the same service, you have to market. I work part time for a very large private healthcare system that provides an ambulance service that is available via our own emergency number and dispatch center (as well as our contracts to varies municipal entities and facilities.) In areas we're not contracted to, you have the ability to call our number vs 911 and receive our services versus the county run agency. Even in something as common as EMS assignments, there's a 'market.'

[Eclipse]

I work part time for a very large private healthcare system that provides an ambulance service that is available via our own emergency number and dispatch center (as well as our contracts to varies municipal entities and facilities.) In areas we're not contracted to, you have the ability to call our number vs 911 and receive our services versus the county run agency. Even in something as common as EMS assignments, there's a 'market.'

The key word here is "private" as in "business".  Yes private, for-profit businesses have to market themselves, public services do not and
should not.

The majority of our ES budget (capital, training, and operational) comes directly, or indirectly, from the Federal government.
If for no other reason then ROI we should be on the early call list.

How about "investment"?  I'd be willing to bet CAP has invested at least $20-50k in "building me" over the last 10-12 years, especially if
you add-in the costs of facilities I've used, military resources, and of course direct reimbursiment and training.  Let's say there's 100 people
in each wing engaged at a similar (or higher) level.

"...figure figure...carry the q except on Tuesday...cypher cypher...sometimes y...figure figure..."

That's $104 million (with an "M" on the conservative side that the good people have invested in us, over the $ 200M capital and training budgets).  CAP gets a >lot< for it's money, and their training comes back not just in ES but in the other missions as well, but with that much
money already invested, we should be higher on the list.

And those numbers only account for the "top 100" in a given wing, not the "next 2-300" who also contribute mightily.

[RiverAux]

Yes private, for-profit businesses have to market themselves, public services do not and should not.

When you are a public service that no one HAS to use and are entirely dependent on other public agencies asking for your assistance, you most certainly have to market your services to them. 

Even if CAP is "on the list", decision makers have the ability to not call us. 

Step 1 is marketing CAP so that we are "on the list" (which we are not required to be on), and Step 2 is getting them to actually call us when an applicable mission is ongoing.

[Eclipse]

We should be enough of the landscape that we are part of the package, regardless of who is calling.

That has to happen at the national or regional level, anything lower and the response stay ad hoc like it is today.

[NavLT]

Even if CAP is "on the list", decision makers have the ability to not call us.

The most important issue is to make sure that you have the marketing and the ability to provide what you market.

You absolutely need an agressive program of marketing the ES capabilities with the local government customers but you also need to make sure that you recruit for and conduct local training that is realistic and involves managment and field operations and then finish with the retention plan of post mission(Real and Training) critiques and internal marketing of our responses.

Lt J

[FW]

Even if CAP is "on the list", decision makers have the ability to not call us.

The most important issue is to make sure that you have the marketing and the ability to provide what you market.

You absolutely need an agressive program of marketing the ES capabilities with the local government customers but you also need to make sure that you recruit for and conduct local training that is realistic and involves managment and field operations and then finish with the retention plan of post mission(Real and Training) critiques and internal marketing of our responses.

Lt J

Yes, indeed.  And, it takes real committment from the members who wish to engage with county EMA's in a real dialogue.  There are many opportunities which can be exploited however, we must be proactive. Most, if not all, wings already have proper MOUs to conduct GSAR/DR in their respective states.  That should not be an issue.  I think we need to (as said above) participate/train with local EMAs and other responders more.  As well as be a regular "seat" at the table.  There are already wings with such presence.  We need to build on the success of these wings and, have NHQ develop a model for all wings to better participate. 

Oh, and by the way; During Sandy, FEMA authorized big bucks for CAP to engage in DR/GSAR activities.  Katrina was the same. I can think of missions going back to the Mississippi floods of the 90s. There is a long list of major ground missions that have taken place over the last 20 years where CAP was involved.

[JayT]

We should be enough of the landscape that we are part of the package, regardless of who is calling.

That has to happen at the national or regional level, anything lower and the response stay ad hoc like it is today.

Should is the key word there. As mentioned previously, if CAP can't reliably deliver when called upon or meet it's MOU's, then nobody is going to bother with that phone call.

[Eclipse]

We should be enough of the landscape that we are part of the package, regardless of who is calling.

That has to happen at the national or regional level, anything lower and the response stay ad hoc like it is today.

Should is the key word there. As mentioned previously, if CAP can't reliably deliver when called upon or meet it's MOU's, then nobody is going to bother with that phone call.

I agree - but where does the leadership and direction come from?  I would argue NHQ from the top down.

Similar organization:

Define the customer.  <---  CRITICAL
Define the scope and mission.  <--- Also CRITICAL
Define the abilities. <--- Also CRITICAL
Direct fulfillment.
Re-mediate the problems, including disciplinary action and termination for non-performance.  <--- Also CRITICAL x10

That's what we need.

One of the challenges we have is the inability of both our membership and especially former and non members who believe they "know",
to get past what happened "before", and start working on what should happen "now".

Just like every other agency and similar organizations, we have had a fair history of success, sometimes planned, sometimes by circumstance, we've failed on occasion, and have had out share of marginal leadership and 1% goobers who get in the way of the majority of the membership who are competent and invested in the whole.

There isn't a single organization on this planet, military, civilian, or otherwise can say the above doesn't apply to them, yet again,
those who "know", especially former members with a local, specific ax to grind, continue to posit that CAP is somehow "different" from
the community in which it exists and the general population which comprises its membership.

[RiverAux]

They key thing that we always forget when discussing GSAR is that if a mission comes up, it is something that the whole wing should be involved in.  We don't expect the local unit to handle an Air SAR case in their area by themselves,  we bring in planes from all over the wing.

We should be looking at GSAR the same way.  Sure, it will take a little longer to spool up resources from the other side of the state, but at worst they would show up bright and early the next day. 

So, lets not get all caught up in worry about the ability of your local unit to commit to GSAR missions to the local county.  The big benefit of CAP is that we can bring in resources from outside the area to help them out.  Yeah, your 7 person GT from your home squadron isn't going to impress anyone, but tell them that you have access to 200 from around the state, and you might make an impression. 

[Eclipse]

^+1 one.

Just because your "unit" is incapable, doesn't mean the "wing" is as well.  The CAP I've been a part of has never had localized response
as part of the plan, but at the wing-level we can put 150+ experience and proficient people on scene in 8-24 hours for little to no cost.

Few other similar organizations can say that.

[Walkman]

They key thing that we always forget when discussing GSAR is that if a mission comes up, it is something that the whole wing should be involved in.  We don't expect the local unit to handle an Air SAR case in their area by themselves,  we bring in planes from all over the wing.

We should be looking at GSAR the same way.  Sure, it will take a little longer to spool up resources from the other side of the state, but at worst they would show up bright and early the next day. 

So, lets not get all caught up in worry about the ability of your local unit to commit to GSAR missions to the local county.  The big benefit of CAP is that we can bring in resources from outside the area to help them out.  Yeah, your 7 person GT from your home squadron isn't going to impress anyone, but tell them that you have access to 200 from around the state, and you might make an impression.

Agreed! I'm rather lucky in that situation in that within 1.5 hours of our unit base there are at least 5 other units that have some GSAR personnel. I'm using that as part of my "marketing plan". Plus, MIWG is very active overall in the state with ES and has a good rep.

Right now, since we've had no real ES program in the unit for a number of years, I'm focusing on building trained people first. Once I have a core group of people trained and committed, I'll start meeting with the local EMAs, knowing I'll also have this expanded group around me to add to the mix. Building relationships will be the key at that point.

As I'm thinking about it, it seems to be more of an agency relationship issue hindering GSAR rather than funding. Outside of issuing gear, the costs of GSAR training are pretty low. I can put together a weekend FTX and do GTM3 taks and a sortie, have everyone pony up $10 for food and we're good to go. I don't mind putting a half tank of gas in the truck for an FTX and not get reimbursed. How would more funding make a bigger difference?

Agency relationships also overcome the problems we encounter with perception. Younger cadets and people in a variety of uniforms and gear don't matter when you've developed a solid relationship with the locals and they know you've a good asset. BUT, the key is you have to put your best foot forward in the beginning. First impressions matter.