Is GSAR about to get its due in CAP?

[RiverAux]

I've been pointing out for years that ground SAR operations are much more likely to result in saves than Air SAR and that GSAR is really an open field where CAP has the ability to become the dominant player as I'm pretty confident that most counties where CAP units exist don't have any local GSAR capabilities.  Even though it is the largest GSAR organization in the world, this aspect of SAR is marginalized in CAP to a great extent and gets very little focus or attention. 

The latest issue of the Volunteer points out the changing face of SAR in CAP and highlights how big a factor GSAR is becoming in our total saves record.  24/32 saves were from ground SAR. 

Perhaps this will finally start to sink in with our leaders and they will begin to devote more time, and more importantly, more money to GSAR equipment and training.  Maybe Wing Commanders will finally realize that they and their staff need to spend more time developing relationships with county emergency managers in every county in the state and not just the few that have CAP units in them. 

Perish the though, but maybe GSAR will stop being seen as some pesky little cadet fun-time activity and an important CAP mission. 

Sure, there are one or two states where local agencies really don't need CAP to do GSAR, but those are the extreme minority.  In most of the country CAP could become the go-to agency for GSAR assistance. 

Sadly, I doubt it.  Rather CAP is going to spend more time and money trying to obtain equipment and develop skill sets for missions that only a tiny percentage of CAP aircraft are going to be involved in. 

[Walkman]

One of the issues with the lack of a bigger GSAR budget has to do with our appearance to outside agencies. We show up to help in a missing aircraft search with an ancient L'Per that looks like a bad prop from a 1950's Cold War movie and what are people to think. Not to mention the extremely wide variety of gear we carry. One GTM is wearing 'Nam era ALICE gear standing next to another one wearing a black Airsoft tac vest with a hunter's vest on top of that while the next guy is wearing a blue hiking backpack.

I've often day-dreamed about being rich and buying everyone in my unit the same hi-quality 24 hr gear and a nice new digital DF'ing unit so we could show up at a mission and look like we know what we're doing.

[NIN]

Nevermind the 72 year old Lt Col who shows up in a battered old Chevy van with 8 "kids" wearing cotton uniforms, non-insulated & non-waterproof black leather combat boots and a mish-mash of M1952-pattern and later web gear at a mountainous SAR location and acts like the professional and volunteer mountain SAR teams in their goretex and techincal gear can go home cuz the "pros" are there.

Seriously.  In some states, CAP isn't even invited to the table for Ground SAR because it is not a legitimate SAR asset, and might, in fact, be a liability.

Until CAP starts to embrace national level training certification to the same levels of other SAR organizations, emphasizes functionality of equipment over blind obedience to the uniform manual (as evidenced by how long it took to get military-standard GoreTex authorized), and gets *serious* about how to does GSAR business, it will never be considered a player in anything but flatland SAR.

showing up to haul your butt up over a mountain on foot while the other teams have snow machines or 4-wheelers ("Sorry, a kid flipped a 4-wheeler at an airshow about 8 years ago, so we can't use them") says "We're not real serious about this."

[Devil Doc]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

[ol'fido]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

[Devil Doc]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

So, why are these Search Managers and IC making the decisions but not involving CAP? It seems like to me certain "Teams" are trying to be the Elite, when in fact they are not. It all comes down to Funding, IMHO. Why isnt NHQ making strides for these ICs to accept CAP? CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified. I know NIN is right, but how can we fix it?

[JeffDG]

What I dont understand is who "SAYS" them other SAR Organizations are Correct? Im tired of everybody comparing us the the NASAR  Blah Blah Blah, who are they to determine what SAR rules Are? Just because you spend money, or they have a monopoly on SAR certs, I am not convinced on bit that CAP can't do more or better than a NASAR Certified. Id rather have that old L'Per because atleast i know it works. New gear isnt always better, if it was the military wouldnt spend millions of dollars to scratch an idea, that was already the best it can be. Thats my SAR Rant.

Who says? The search mangers and incident commanders who have to make the decision about which teams they send out and which they send home.

NIN is right.

So, why are these Search Managers and IC making the decisions but not involving CAP? It seems like to me certain "Teams" are trying to be the Elite, when in fact they are not. It all comes down to Funding, IMHO. Why isnt NHQ making strides for these ICs to accept CAP? CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified. I know NIN is right, but how can we fix it?

Why is it NHQ's job to do this?

These SAR managers are local folks, county EMAs, state EMAs.  It's the job of Wings (state EMAs), and squadrons or groups (county EMAs) to put a good foot forward.

Not everything has a "national" solution.

[Devil Doc]

Ok then Wing Level should get active. Our CAP unit trains all the time and keep it touch with the County/State EMs. Its the NASAR Qaul that they keep throwing back into our face. It kinda earks me some. Its kinda like saying Only Chevys can work, FORDS can stand back and watch. It is just a preference.

[RiverAux]

Until CAP starts to embrace national level training certification to the same levels of other SAR organizations,

What a total non-issue.  The only real differences between CAP standards and NASAR relates to tasks that CAP isn't going to do anyway (high-angle stuff). 

emphasizes functionality of equipment over blind obedience to the uniform manual

Pretty much anytime I've seen a CAP ground team in the same place as local FD/PD going out into the woods, the CAP ground team is way better equipped and prepared.  Our folks bring water and aren't wearing tennis shoes....  That being said, our manuals could be better in dealing with the extreme weather situations, but what we have works most places most of the time. 

gets *serious* about how to does GSAR business

absolutely true. 

[Devil Doc]

So, why is Time and time Again CAP is not Included. I really think it has to be a "Funding" and "Liability" issue. Who cares if we have mix matched gear? It seems like every Volunteer Rescue Squad/Firefighter want new gear or more funding, so CAP is not going to take that away from them.

[RiverAux]

In most places CAP isn't included because we don't make the effort to prioritize GSAR operations and don't publicize these capabilities to the local agencies who are going to be the ones asking for help. 

It takes about 1 minute to explain why liability won't be an issue if they request CAP the right way. 

[sardak]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

but how can we fix it?

There are SAR classes which we could require for members to become qualified as IC, PSC, OSC, GBD, AOBD and GTL. These classes have been around far longer than the current CAP ES curriculum and we haven't required them yet, so...

Mike

[Devil Doc]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

but how can we fix it?

There are SAR classes which we could require for members to become qualified as IC, PSC, OSC, GBD, AOBD and GTL. These classes have been around far longer than the current CAP ES curriculum and we haven't required them yet, so...

Mike

What makes them classes you listed "Elite" over the CAP ES System?

[NIN]

In most places CAP isn't included because we don't make the effort to prioritize GSAR operations and don't publicize these capabilities to the local agencies who are going to be the ones asking for help. 

It takes about 1 minute to explain why liability won't be an issue if they request CAP the right way.

That might work where you're at in the flatland. (not saying that in a bad way: I grew up in basically flat Michigan, and the bulk of my original SAR training & work was started there)

But here where I live now, the Department of Fish & Game is the Primary SAR Agency for the state, and for anything occurring basically north of where I live, CAP did not get the call to help when it came to the ground work.  Heck, CAP seldom got the call for anything but non-distress ELT turn-offs and ramp checks south of me, either.

For the aforementioned reasons, too.  The Fish & Game guys got tired to having the CAP guys show up and act like they were the only game in town, that the other groups and teams were clearly "second rate" and then not have the ability to deliver.

I've been in the mountains in the winter. It is not a place to be if you are not equipped and prepared.  And CAP ground teams (generally speaking) are not appropriately equipped and prepared for that SAR environment.  I know, because I was not equipped and prepared.  I couldn't be.  For the time, couldn't have Goretex, gaiters, non-issue boots, etc.  Plus, we all know (and have discussed this a zillion times here) the CAP penchant for "Better be in the right uniform all the time, no matter what!"

I'm not saying we have to do high-angle rescue, because there are other teams out there that practice that stuff constantly.   But I am saying that you have to
a) Be able to get to & into the search area.  A 2WD Ford Econoline is not that tool for that;
b) Be able to physically handle the terrain and conditions (most CAP folks that I know are *not* equipped or trained for that);
c) Be able to avoid becoming a search and recovery objective yourself;
d) Be able to work and play well with others in the battlespace.

I played the SAR game here for 5-6 years.  Once I realized that we were never going to get called for anything more complex/involved than straight up UDF silencing of non-distress ELTs, it really took the sheen off the desire for readiness.   My cadets saw right thru the sham, as well.  They'd do the monthly/quarterly SAREXs with their big and involved crashed airplane scenarios replete with air to ground coordination and all the usual ground SAR jim-jam, but then they'd hear about a real live search and we'd would not get the call.

We had an active ground team for a few years. Cocked and locked, call down rosters ready, practiced, trained, stuff all packed, etc. 

But then you'd get up in the morning and see the email that said "Capt I-Got-No-Life replied to the emailed alert for resources at 1230 this morning and silenced the ELT found at the capital city's municipal airport at 0245.."

On more than one occasion, I'd be like "Wait, we had an ELT right in our back yard and nobody called us?"

(yes, the wing alerting officer would get the call from AFRCC and he would send out an email to the wing requesting assistance. He would NEVER call anybody. This is before people had smart phones that pinged at every email.   One of our comm guys was a broadcast engineer who kept odd hours, so he'd see the email and leap on the mission. I very publicly asked why the alerting officer refused to alert the ground team from the squadron that met at the airport the ELT was suspected to be at,  and why in god's name was he using EMAIL to send out mission alerting in the first place, and he would just shrug his shoulders and say "Well, thats the way it is..."  Wait, WHAT?)

My cadets and officers just got tired of being on hair trigger alert for the mission that would never come.  And they saw thru the fact that all these scenarios we trained for all the time were essentially "pie in the sky," because the Fish & Game people were not ever going to invite our ground assets to the party.  Kind of sucks to put all this time and effort into learning how to play football, only to later find out that there is no 'big game'.

In late 2007, my wife's cousin's father-in-law got lost while hunting in a local state park (I literally lived about 2-3 miles from there). Fish & Game actually called CAP for Ground SAR.  I was flabbergasted / stunned.  I saw it on the news coverage.  Its winter in the northeast, and they showed a bunch of people standing around. All the cadets were wearing their white pistol belts, orange ascots and hats, whistles, white bootlaces (I could be wrong about the latter, but that sticks in my mind).  It just looked "stupid".  They didn't look like they were ready to go tromping thru a heavily wooded and snow covered state park in November and be equipped for the weather.  But hey, man, those hats were well-crimped.

This is just one aspect of the stuff I mean:  CAP is well-intending, but ultimately they're either not appropriately equipped or not appropriately staffed. These cadets I saw were wearing mesh baseball caps and orange ascots, cotton uniforms and black uninsulated combat boots.  Its DECEMBER in snow, people.  Wear a winter hat and a @#$% coat, for god's sake.  Ditch your ranger bling bling for something that closely approximates the gear for the job. 

Years ago, a gentleman from the SAR school up in the mountains came to talk to a local unit at their annual banquet.  They did SAR in the mountains. Crampons, snow cats, ice axes, technical mountain climbing fabrics (coats and such), etc.   These people spent a crapload of money on gear and training. And they trained, frequently.  In the mountains. In the winter.

Most CAP ground teams don't have that kind of time, commitment, money or resources.

[sardak]

What makes them classes you listed "Elite" over the CAP ES System?

Nothing makes "them classes 'Elite' " because they aren't. The point is that CAP doesn't require, nor even provide, any SAR management or theory training for our ES management staff on the air or ground side. See this discussion for the latest, but certainly not the only, discussion of this topic: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16761.0

Here is a true story for perspective. The weekend AFRCC SAR Management Class (SMC), also called the Basic Inland SAR Course (BISC), was being offered in a wing. CAP members were given first chance to sign-up as the class has a maximum enrollment of 24 to 30, I'm not sure. After two months of soliciting CAP members to attend, only four signed up. The class was opened up to the general SAR community in the state and the class was filled in four hours. What message do you suppose that sent to AFRCC and the SAR powers in the state?

Not all organizations require their management personnel to attend SAR management and theory classes. Those that want to bring themselves up to a professional level, not "Elite," require or highly recommend these classes. The majority of these aren't paid professional organizations, but rather are volunteer professional organizations, which is what CAP should strive to be.

Mike

[John Bryan]

CAP has there own ICs also, and most of them are FEMA certified.

No CAP ICs are FEMA certifed in SAR, there is no such certification unless you want to count CERT. The ICs have FEMA certificates showing that they completed 100, 200, 300 and 400, 700 and 800. None of these classses has anything to do with search and rescue management, skills or theory.  FEMA IS-809, which no one in CAP is required to take, is an overview of ESF-9 and how SAR works in general but doesn't qualify anyone to do anything in SAR.

[John Bryan]

There are FEMA Position-Specific Training courses....for Incident Commanders this is EMI E/L 950...This should be taken after ICS 300 and 400 as well as the IMT Team course.

Most agencies then have task books that must be signed off so you can be quilified. Also FEMA, USDA (Forest Service) and others type their levels differently then we do.

[RiverAux]

Sadly, NIN's tale of woe is not unique to GSAR issues and much the same sort of thing has happened in many aspects of CAP's ES operations in the past. 

However, most of the issues can be easily addressed if CAP made GSAR a priority.  As it stands now, GSAR is left pretty much at the mercy of a very few number of people who take any interest in it at all and in that sort of environment all sorts of things can get out of whack.

And it isn't a lack of 4-wheelers or Hummers that keeps CAP ground teams out of the fight across most of the country.  Most people get lost in areas that are not that hard to access using typical vehicles OR are in areas so rugged that it won't matter what vehicle you drove in, you're still going to be hiking to the search area. 

[SarDragon]

It's all about training, attitudes, and perceptions.

CAP has never done all of the right training to be truly competent in the ground SAR arena. What we do is mostly good, but it doesn't go far enough, especially outside of the flat land areas. Most of the 'pro' SAR folks have much more relevant training than does CAP.

CAP folks have showed up with some pretty crappy attitudes, as has been noted above. Many CAP folks still haven't learned to play nicely with others. This is essential in the SAR arena. Most SAR is under the purview of a state agency. It's THEIR ball game. We participate at their pleasure.

Which brings me to the third point - perceptions. When the movers and shakers see and hear CAP show up, they, frankly, aren't positively impressed. The CAP units in my county have just in the past couple of years gotten past the bad blood from 10 or 15 years ago, brought about by exhibiting exactly the behaviour described above.

[Stonewall]

What message do you suppose that sent to AFRCC and the SAR powers in the state?

In my experience as a DCWG member usually operating in conjunction with VAWG and the VA Dept. of ES, all of those volunteer SAR organizations (in that state, anyway) are exactly that, VOLUNTEERS.  The difference between us and them, as I saw it, was that many of those folks were under employed, save for a few of the full-timers.  However, us CAPers were gainfully employed as professionals OUTSIDE of SAR/EMS/ES. 

In 1996 I went to a VA DES Field Team Member and Field Team Leader course that was required to operate in Virginia (unless you were mutual aid).  It was me and 3 other CAP senior members who took a day of leave (Friday) for each of the 3 day courses.  But it was plagued with a crap ton of these Volunteer SAR folks, like hundreds, there for a variety of courses from Sign Cutting to FTM.  They were mostly hourly employed types, working everything from Jiffy Lube to Radio Shack and would give up (call out, lose) their jobs to attend a "must have" course or the end_of_the_world lost person search that would likely make them the hero of the day.  Meanwhile, us CAP seniors had to return to our suit-wearing, gun toting, or ultra secret squirrel type jobs that provided us with salaries and benefits, but enough time to attend weekly CAP meetings and the occasional 2 day weekend activity unless we took vacation time to attend a full-blown week long activity (which I reserved for NCSA, encampment, or RSC).

Of course, this is one slice out of a state, and doesn't speak for the entire US.  But I'm sure there are many people willing to give up more to attend SMC or other high-end SAR courses available out there.