eServices Lock Out for Incomplete Safety Education

Started by Spaceman3750, April 15, 2011, 08:23:17 PM

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Spaceman3750

I was just notified when I logged into eServices today that when my safety education expires in 15 days I will be locked out of eServices. This is apparently a new policy being implemented in May. My question is where did it come from?

Also, it appears that it will pop up every time you log in for 15 days before your safety currency expires. Which means I have to click through that stupid box every time I log in for every day I log in for half the month (assuming I don't get it done before then). It's just a click, but it's annoying none the less.

arajca

OK. Next time you log in, go to the online safety training, pick a topic, and complete it. You're now compliant and the nag box goes away.

kmbarnes1

So If you get locked out eServices...how can you take these safety courses online that are supposted make up for missed Safety meetings?
Kurt Barnes, 1st Lt, CAP
Assistant Deputy Commander of Cadets
Information Technology Officer
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron (MER-SC-056)

SarDragon

Quote from: kmbarnes1 on April 15, 2011, 08:39:28 PM
So If you get locked out eServices...how can you take these safety courses online that are supposted make up for missed Safety meetings?

Get a face-to-face safety briefing at your unit, and have your commander enter it.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

arajca

Quote from: kmbarnes1 on April 15, 2011, 08:39:28 PM
So If you get locked out eServices...how can you take these safety courses online that are supposted make up for missed Safety meetings?
Well, according to the OP, you get a 15 day warning. So you have half the month to do the training before you get locked out. If you wait until you are locked out, you'll have to get your behind to a safety training and have the presenter log it for you. And until you do that, you cannot do ANY CAP activities - including regular meetings. The only CAP activity you can do is attend a safety meeting.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 15, 2011, 08:23:17 PM
I was just notified when I logged into eServices today that when my safety education expires in 15 days I will be locked out of eServices. This is apparently a new policy being implemented in May. My question is where did it come from?

Also, it appears that it will pop up every time you log in for 15 days before your safety currency expires. Which means I have to click through that stupid box every time I log in for every day I log in for half the month (assuming I don't get it done before then). It's just a click, but it's annoying none the less.
Wow, I better make sure the unit safety officer is inputing the safety briefings I've attended.  Will have to check.  Surely locking someone out of e services is just a great way of punishing members isn't it and than they have to go to the unit ??? >:(   

Apparently CAP can't trust unit commander's to do the right thing and must now punish the individual member directly.  Again I'd like to know what regulation allows them specifically to deny access to a member to change information or get information in e services ??? >:(
RM

   

jks19714

At some point, CAP HQ is going to see squadrons going from operational to non-operational due to Scoggin's Law of Volunteerism, which states that "The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies (volunteers and administrators) are unequal, opposite and exponential".

Eventually volunteers will simply give up trying to deal with the adminitrivia and revolt.  Most folks simply quit and find something more rewarding to do.  A few write Congressionals and the wrath of DC is evoked, bringing temporary relief sometimes. 

One can only hope for a sudden unexpected onslaught of sanity.

- john
Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
Assistant Wing Communications Engineer

tsrup

how you spend the time it takes to complain about it here to just get safety current?.....
Paramedic
hang-around.

wuzafuzz

I wish this was just a late April Fool's joke. Safety is a great goal, we should be living it.  But this is getting a little crazy. 

Locking folks out of eServices because they missed the last meeting where we discussed FOOD safety is absurd.  Or how about the presentation on bicycle safety.  Someone tell me, with a straight face, that makes me a safer CUL or mission scanner.  Seriously. 

What's sad is some members took all the online safety courses before realizing they will all expire at the same time.  Doing so didn't cover them for the next year.  They will be locked out of CAP if they don't attend a squadron meeting while we talk about Internet safety or some other such thing.

By now many of you are wondering about the choice of topics.  There are only so many different ways to talk about obvious topics like weather, situational awareness, proper planning, field safety, etc.  It's not like we just started talking about safety, we've been doing it for years.  After a while we need something fresh for our obligatory safety presentation.

Cadets need a little more "attention" IMHO.  My 17 year old son like to joke that teens are "old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway."  There is some truth to that.  The problem is it seems like CAP is treating all of us like children.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

RADIOMAN015

#9
Quote from: tsrup on April 16, 2011, 08:39:36 AM
how you spend the time it takes to complain about it here to just get safety current?.....
We have an active safety program in the squadron & I attend the briefings.  As another said some members took all the on line safety training and it all expires at one time since they weren't warned at the time properly.

Again, what gives them the authority to lock active members out of e services so they can't conduct ANY CAP business (including taking an on line test) >:( ???.    Also If you miss 3 safety briefings does that mean you can only take two on line and the third you have to sit down with your safety officer for a personal briefing ???

Hey, I'm all for safety but the BS level has gotten way to high on this. >:(    Safety Officers are having to spend a lot of time on preparing these briefings.  Again the subjects for the monthly briefing needs to be prepared by the PAID STAFFER at National HQ, and be downloadable to the various safety officers for presentation.  Perhaps with some choices available based upon the season & activity.   Our safety officer in my opinion does a good job, but the reality of it is that a simple 1 paper two side handout on an APPLICABLE safety matter in CAP would accomplish the same thing versus 5, 10, 15 power point slides that have to be prepared.

Again I think much more emphasis needs to be placed on specific ORM analysis and safety briefing BEFORE an activity starts, especially those activities in which our stats show more injuries occur.
RM
       

RVT

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 16, 2011, 12:45:59 PMAgain the subjects for the monthly briefing needs to be prepared by the PAID STAFFER at National HQ, and be downloadable to the various safety officers for presentation.  Perhaps with some choices available based upon the season & activity.

Did you actually just come up with a good idea?

Nolan Teel

Quote from: RVT on April 16, 2011, 01:44:21 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 16, 2011, 12:45:59 PMAgain the subjects for the monthly briefing needs to be prepared by the PAID STAFFER at National HQ, and be downloadable to the various safety officers for presentation.  Perhaps with some choices available based upon the season & activity.

Did you actually just come up with a good idea?

Wheres the like button.

arBar

I'm all for safety awareness, accountability, and motivating members to stay active.  But like others have said, this just felt wrong.

jks19714

IMHO, e-Services should just dump you into a list of safety courses once you "expire" and let you complete one of them prior to proceeding to the main menu.  It can't be that hard, they do it when new members login for the first time and they need to take OPSEC before proceeding any further.

john
Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
Assistant Wing Communications Engineer

Thom

Quote from: jks19714 on April 16, 2011, 04:33:57 PM
IMHO, e-Services should just dump you into a list of safety courses once you "expire" and let you complete one of them prior to proceeding to the main menu.  It can't be that hard, they do it when new members login for the first time and they need to take OPSEC before proceeding any further.

john

Bingo!

This cannot be that hard to code, and it is a sensible course of action.

Login complete, simple check: Safety Expired? Go directly to Online Safety Education, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.

Simple and logical, so how do we get this idea up the line to NHQ's eServices mavens?


Thom

Pylon

Quote from: Thom on April 16, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Simple and logical, so how do we get this idea up the line to NHQ's eServices mavens?


The safety briefing I just took on E-Services encouraged all safety ideas to be emailed directly to the NHQ volunteer-side safety guy, Col Diduch, at safety@capnhq.gov.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

RADIOMAN015

#16
Quote from: Pylon on April 16, 2011, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: Thom on April 16, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Simple and logical, so how do we get this idea up the line to NHQ's eServices mavens?


The safety briefing I just took on E-Services encouraged all safety ideas to be emailed directly to the NHQ volunteer-side safety guy, Col Diduch, at safety@capnhq.gov.
Sort of like letting the fox into the chicken coop huh :-\  Don't you think he is probably one of the people who are behind this eservices lock out program ??? :(   Also wouldn't you think that someone/anyone with that amount of time and experience in CAP would pretty much come to the same conclusion, that volunteers may not have the time to prepare safety briefings each month and do need help from a paid professional staff (BTW the HQ CAP-USAF Safety Officer actually said at a board meeting that they would help CAP with the safety aspect)  :-\ :( ???

I'd also be interested in what notification is being given to someone who doesn't sign into eservices but only once a month.  Are they getting an email.  If they don't have email is the commander getting a notification about it, etc, etc,.
RM

jks19714

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 16, 2011, 07:09:58 PM


I'd also be interested in what notification is being given to someone who doesn't sign into eservices but only once a month.  Are they getting an email.  If they don't have email is the commander getting a notification about it, etc, etc,.
RM

The sign-in roster at our weekly squadron meeting has a column for whether you are in-/out- of safety compliance.

john
Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
Assistant Wing Communications Engineer

Pylon

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 16, 2011, 07:09:58 PM
Don't you think he is probably one of the people who are behind this eservices lock out program ??? :(   Also wouldn't you think that someone/anyone with that amount of time and experience in CAP would pretty much come to the same conclusion, that volunteers may not have the time to prepare safety briefings each month and do need help from a paid professional staff (BTW the HQ CAP-USAF Safety Officer actually said at a board meeting that they would help CAP with the safety aspect)  :-\ :( ???


::)


If you're given the opportunity to send your idea or suggestion to the key person and choose not to because you've already mentally written somebody off without knowing anything about them, then don't keep complaining here.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

jks19714

This email just sent to NHQ Safety:

Sir –

Has NHQ considered the possibility of simply forwarding members logging into e-Services to a safety course selection screen as opposed to having the "nag" pop-up when you are 15 days from expiration?  With the timing of our squadron's monthly safety brief, it is a little annoying.  CAP already does this type of thing to require new members to complete OPSEC prior to any other activity on e-Services.

Very respectfully,

John Scoggin
SM, MER-DE-008
Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
Assistant Wing Communications Engineer

Tubacap

It must have been heard, because I pressed OK to the warning today, and it sent me directly to my safety record.  Rather convenient.
William Schlosser, Major CAP
NER-PA-001

Thom

Quote from: Tubacap on April 17, 2011, 01:06:00 AM
It must have been heard, because I pressed OK to the warning today, and it sent me directly to my safety record.  Rather convenient.

I wonder if this was like the recent(ish) rollout of the revamped gocivilairpatrol.com site? That one was also a continuing process, with the initial page going up and additional core features and links coming online for several days/weeks afterward.

Not the most common way of rolling out systems updates, but if it is working for them, and the end result is acceptable, then...

Anyway, good on NHQ for getting it right in the end!


Thom

Tubacap

Anybody know when this system will tie in with the eFlight Release program?
William Schlosser, Major CAP
NER-PA-001

a2capt

Here's the other stupid thing:

Consider your typical unit that has it's safety presentation every month at the same time, when using the suggested schedule rotation in the current 52-16, and you've worked that in to be the 3rd or 4th meeting of the month.

So, everyone gets nagged on eServices for about 10 days perhaps, when it's something thats routinely scheduled and it's pointless to go and "use up" all those online courses just to cover for it, when it's going to be done anyway.

Who thinks this stuff up, really? It's actually a hassle  because I've had it delay that dialog and ignore the clicks at it a few times so far, necessitating closing the window and starting over. All when I'll be getting the standard briefing in a few days anyway at the regularly scheduled time. In fact, I'm the one that enters them usually, too. Not that it's relative to getting notified.. but..  whatever.

MSG Mac

I think we're overdoing the Safety Instruction for new members. To date we have to complete the Intro to Safety course, ORM (Don't you think that would cover  the Intro class), and in FLWG, they expect people to take the Tech level in safety. This is all in addition to the mandatory monthly safety breifings.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Ăźτε

Quote from: MSG Mac on April 18, 2011, 06:23:11 PM
I think we're overdoing the Safety Instruction for new members. To date we have to complete the Intro to Safety course, ORM (Don't you think that would cover  the Intro class), and in FLWG, they expect people to take the Tech level in safety. This is all in addition to the mandatory monthly safety breifings.
The Basic ORM Course/Test is not required. The topic is covered in the Foundations Policies module and the Intro to Safety. 

1LtNurseOfficer

Pardon me if this has been asked already (I didn't see any reference to it).

If you have not completed the "classroom only" portions, will it still lock you out?  Due to personal reasons, I haven't been able to be active in my squadron for nearly a year.

Thanks.

NIN

Quote from: Tubacap on April 17, 2011, 12:10:24 PM
Anybody know when this system will tie in with the eFlight Release program?

So we can ground everybody across the country all at once, huh?
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

jacob

How often does one have to take a safety class to be compliant?  For example, one member of my squadron took Intro to CAP Safety on 24 February 2011 and is now listed as INCOMPLETE on eServices.  I had thought it was an annual requirement...

coudano

monthly
in person briefing at your squadron, or online quiz


Persona non grata

This is starting to get ridicules, every year we are loosing more members so this just another avenue to discourage people from renewing their membership.  Safety is good but come on folks, this whole safety program is starting to get stuck on stupid. 
Rock, Flag & Eagle.........

Eclipse

Quote from: eaker.cadet on April 29, 2011, 02:25:01 PM
This is starting to get ridicules, every year we are loosing more members so this just another avenue to discourage people from renewing their membership.  Safety is good but come on folks, this whole safety program is starting to get stuck on stupid.

I agree the safety situation is onerous and does not appear to be producing the intended results, but I challenge the notion that we are losing members over it.  There's supposed to be regular safety briefings, and most units did them as a matter of course every week, anyway, so the once-a-month deal is only a problem for inactive members, which is fixed in 5 minutes (I did one yesterday, so if any of you needs info on dealing with downed power lines, well PM me...), or for units who still think business is done via fax and can't get their SE to enter their briefings.

And as Mike pointed out in a separate thread, we're not alone in the pain.  Every other military and paramilitary service, PD, FD, and most corporations have similar issues.

"That Others May Zoom"

coudano

Quote
And as Mike pointed out in a separate thread, we're not alone in the pain.  Every other military and paramilitary service, PD, FD, and most corporations have similar issues.

Annual briefings and ancillary training are annoying, sure...
But they don't have them to this degree...
We are wayyyy past ridiculous here.

Persona non grata

Most of the safety topics are common sense but I yet to master the skill of teaching it (CS).   I thought when we had the safety pledge all this mishaps would have been prevented.  I will give them props for the online safety briefing because most of the topics I have found to be edcational and stuff that I can use out side of CAP.  So :clap:to the NHQ Safety officer for that one.
So where does this thread turn into "can I wear the safety patch on my zoom bag"(JKA).
Rock, Flag & Eagle.........

Spaceman3750

Quote from: eaker.cadet on April 29, 2011, 04:28:17 PM
Most of the safety topics are common sense but I yet to master the skill of teaching it (CS).   I thought when we had the safety pledge all this mishaps would have been prevented.  I will give them props for the online safety briefing because most of the topics I have found to be edcational and stuff that I can use out side of CAP.  So :clap:to the NHQ Safety officer for that one.
So where does this thread turn into "can I wear the safety patch on my zoom bag"(JKA).

You bring up giving safety advice that we can use outside of CAP. While I think that's good because it helps you to stay safe outside of CAP so that when something comes up you are available inside CAP, but frequently I see briefings and articles on things like barbecue safety, etc and wonder how this helps me be a safer ground team leader and senior member.

Eclipse

Quote from: coudano on April 29, 2011, 03:28:38 PM
Quote
And as Mike pointed out in a separate thread, we're not alone in the pain.  Every other military and paramilitary service, PD, FD, and most corporations have similar issues.

Annual briefings and ancillary training are annoying, sure...
But they don't have them to this degree...
We are wayyyy past ridiculous here.

One briefing a month on anything is too much?  What should be the "ridiculous threshold" here?

"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

Inactive members. Thats exactly the problem. When you have the Wing running around firing off letters and threatening to ground your unit for non-compliance, but not giving any real specific details, other than pretty much beating the drum that nothing less than 100% compliance will be acceptable.

Well.. 100% is darn near practically impossible for a unit of more than two, because once you start having more people the odds of having dead weight on your roster increases significantly. Dead weight thats not going to do anything. Push them to patron status, sure. But the reports still list patron members and show them as incomplete, thus nailing the statistics.  Are they required? Somewhere it didn't mention that class of membership, others it does.

So now if you are still current, but starting to reach the end of the month of which currency lapses, you'll now get nagged on eServices, yet you already know about it, your unit's safety session isn't for another two weeks yet, because thats when you always have it. Why does this thing need to hassle everyone?

I'm starting to get more on the "this is way past ridiculous, approaching ludicrous" bandwagon, too. If they have gone this far to make it in your face, they're spending way too much time on this. Who's pet is this anyway, and what argument are they trying to win?

Persona non grata

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 29, 2011, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: eaker.cadet on April 29, 2011, 04:28:17 PM
Most of the safety topics are common sense but I yet to master the skill of teaching it (CS).   I thought when we had the safety pledge all this mishaps would have been prevented.  I will give them props for the online safety briefing because most of the topics I have found to be edcational and stuff that I can use out side of CAP.  So :clap:to the NHQ Safety officer for that one.
So where does this thread turn into "can I wear the safety patch on my zoom bag"(JKA).

You bring up giving safety advice that we can use outside of CAP. While I think that's good because it helps you to stay safe outside of CAP so that when something comes up you are available inside CAP, but frequently I see briefings and articles on things like barbecue safety, etc and wonder how this helps me be a safer ground team leader and senior member.

Possibly beacuase squadron have an occassional BBQ.  I do see yyour point. 
Rock, Flag & Eagle.........

Eclipse

#39
Quote from: a2capt on April 29, 2011, 04:58:23 PM
Inactive members. Thats exactly the problem. When you have the Wing running around firing off letters and threatening to ground your unit for non-compliance, but not giving any real specific details, other than pretty much beating the drum that nothing less than 100% compliance will be acceptable.

Well.. 100% is darn near practically impossible for a unit of more than two, because once you start having more people the odds of having dead weight on your roster increases significantly. Dead weight thats not going to do anything. Push them to patron status, sure. But the reports still list patron members and show them as incomplete, thus nailing the statistics.  Are they required? Somewhere it didn't mention that class of membership, others it does.

So now if you are still current, but starting to reach the end of the month of which currency lapses, you'll now get nagged on eServices, yet you already know about it, your unit's safety session isn't for another two weeks yet, because thats when you always have it. Why does this thing need to hassle everyone?

I'm starting to get more on the "this is way past ridiculous, approaching ludicrous" bandwagon, too. If they have gone this far to make it in your face, they're spending way too much time on this. Who's pet is this anyway, and what argument are they trying to win?

You have some legitimate points in the current execution, if patron members are showing up as incomplete for anything, that's ridiculous
and should be fixed, but...

...notice how so many of our administrative burdens are caused by empty shirts?

There is a simple solution for that.

I don't know why it is people are so reticent to fix their problems in the most basic and simple way.  We can talk ourselves to death
about guys at BMT, people with weird job schedules, or those who go to Florida for vacation, but the vast majority of all administrative non-compliance is caused by empty shirts, and at least in my scope, members who "we've never met and haven't ever been to a meeting..." or "he moved to Utah 5 years ago and never transferred..."

Patron, 2b, or transfer them.  Normalize the ranks, then we can talk about non-compliance of members who serve CAP but in a more limited, irregular fashion.

If they are still showing up in compliance reports, why can't we transfer all the "financial supporters" to the national patron squadron?  Or better still,
remove them from ranks and create a "supporter" category?  If all they want to do is write a check, they don't need an ID card, uniforms, or any of the other privileges that come with actually doing something...

"That Others May Zoom"

coudano

Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 04:36:56 PM
One briefing a month on anything is too much?  What should be the "ridiculous threshold" here?

Doing the briefing is not a big deal for me (though it is usually a repetitive eye rolling yawn fest)
The micromanagement, tracking, and enforcement is the ridiculous part.

EMT-83

Actually, the on-line tracking makes documentation easier than it's ever been. Anyone who has been doing what's required all along shouldn't be having any problems with safety.

Eclipse

Quote from: coudano on April 29, 2011, 05:46:36 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 04:36:56 PM
One briefing a month on anything is too much?  What should be the "ridiculous threshold" here?

Doing the briefing is not a big deal for me (though it is usually a repetitive eye rolling yawn fest)
The micromanagement, tracking, and enforcement is the ridiculous part.

Well, that's just it, right?

When people were told "just do it", they didn't, so at some point you have to enforce the rules somehow.  Its a headache for Group and Wing staffers
who participate fully but not necessarily at regular meetings, but for the average active unit member, not a big deal.

Don't like the nags?  Do an online brief.

"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

The nags are stupid, thats the problem. The safety briefing is NOT overdue, the unit has them regularly scheduled. Why hassle people every month over it?

arajca

It helps prevent them from falling out of currancy. National does not know when each unit does its safety briefings. The unit I work with does theirs at the beginning of the month so we don't see the nags.

It is the member's responsibility to maintain safety currancy. It is the unit's responsibility to provide one safety education per month and enter those who attended that briefing into eServices. If the member misses the regular safety education, they need to obtain it on their own.

I know of several members whose units hold their safety education at the end of the month who've missed the meeting or have had the meeting cancelled due to weather of holiday. They fell out of currancy because no one told them they had to make the safety education up somehow. You can blame the unit leadership, but the member also shares the responsibilty.