Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[High Speed Low Drag]

I don't agree that we have to stay away from hard rank just because of law enforcement using it.  Most police officers I've seen who are lieutenants, captains and above, their rank insignia is a lot smaller than mil-spec and is often just gold or silver.  Some wear it embroidered on epaulettes, like the Customs and Border Protection officers.

I know my collar bars are about 1/2 mil-spec, which is typical of police rank (and 99% of fire departments use bugles to denote collar rank).  However, all of the hard rank that I have seen on police dress jackets are full-size. (Fire typically uses sleeve braid to denote rank on dress jackets) 

I am not opposed to hard rank, just trying to eliminate potential AF objections. Moreover, I think that the gray slides would also help "balance" the jacket to the gray pants as well as make the jacket more "CAP-distinctive." 

As far as a tie goes, we cold use the standard tie that matches the coat (LAPD Blue) or a gray tie to match the pants.  I am still opposed to the sleeve braid.  Think it is added "bling" that detracts from the look.

Since I can't figure out how to insert pics, I'll email them to kd8gua to illustrate what I am talking about.

[kd8gua]

Here are some ideas for pants:

LAPD Blue Pants:
[smg id=70]

Heather Gray Pants:
[smg id=69]

Castillo Gray Pants:
[smg id=71]

[PhoenixRisen]

Here are some ideas for pants:

For this style uniform (I guess, specifically, the style of coat), IMO, the matching top and pants are better than a two-shade combo.

[ol'fido]

Anybody looked at USMA(West Point) gray uniform trousers as a more "uniformy" style of pants. Although, they do have the black stripe down the side.

[Fuzzy]

Without the gray pants you might as well keep the TPU. Sure its not double breasted and doesn't use almost as much USAF stuff as the regular uniform, but its still a bluish coat with blue pants.

I think if your designing a dress up form of the grays it doesn't make sense to have to change pants just to put on a service coat.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Without the gray pants you might as well keep the TPU. Sure its not double breasted and doesn't use almost as much USAF stuff as the regular uniform, but its still a bluish coat with blue pants.

I think if your designing a dress up form of the grays it doesn't make sense to have to change pants just to put on a service coat.

Again, the Air Force does not hold a monopoly on all shades of blue.

The CSU uses Air Force trousers, Air Force rank slides, an Air Force tie, Air Force headdress, and a service coat using the same cloth as the Air Force uniform.

We can become too paranoid over the issue of blue and hard rank.  Neither are the exclusive preserve of the Air Force.

[Gunner C]

Without the gray pants you might as well keep the TPU. Sure its not double breasted and doesn't use almost as much USAF stuff as the regular uniform, but its still a bluish coat with blue pants.

I think if your designing a dress up form of the grays it doesn't make sense to have to change pants just to put on a service coat.

Again, the Air Force does not hold a monopoly on all shades of blue.

:::snip:::

Yep, that's true.  But if we don't want the AF to come back a couple of years later then we'd better steer clear of blue.  Keeping with the greys and adding to them is the only way for us to own it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know my collar bars are about 1/2 mil-spec, which is typical of police rank (and 99% of fire departments use bugles to denote collar rank).  However, all of the hard rank that I have seen on police dress jackets are full-size. (Fire typically uses sleeve braid to denote rank on dress jackets) 

I am not opposed to hard rank, just trying to eliminate potential AF objections. Moreover, I think that the gray slides would also help "balance" the jacket to the gray pants as well as make the jacket more "CAP-distinctive." 

As far as a tie goes, we cold use the standard tie that matches the coat (LAPD Blue) or a gray tie to match the pants.  I am still opposed to the sleeve braid.  Think it is added "bling" that detracts from the look.

I grew up next to a fire station.  The firefighters there used silver and gold firehose nozzles to indicate rank.  A lot of police officers used to stop in to see the firefighters for various reasons, so I saw a lot of their rank as well.  The Corporals and Sergeants wore gold metal chevrons on the collar; I don't remember any sleeve cloth stripes.  At that time they wore dark blue shirts and kind of postman blue trousers.  The firefighters wore medium blue shirts and dark blue trousers.

I say that to illustrate how there are several combinations of blue that are completely unrelated to the Air Force.

For that matter, the AF itself has used several different shades of blue over the years.

I think we're overreacting if we automatically say "it has to be grey" to avoid ticking off an E-1 fresh out of Lackland who hasn't done his/her homework.  If it's OK with CAP-USAF, then it will have to be OK with the AF in general.

However, I am in agreement with you about sleeve braid.  I don't think it's needed on the AF-type uniform for that matter...it's a commissioning stripe, and we are not commissioned.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Without the gray pants you might as well keep the TPU. Sure its not double breasted and doesn't use almost as much USAF stuff as the regular uniform, but its still a bluish coat with blue pants.

I think if your designing a dress up form of the grays it doesn't make sense to have to change pants just to put on a service coat.

Again, the Air Force does not hold a monopoly on all shades of blue.

:::snip:::

Yep, that's true.  But if we don't want the AF to come back a couple of years later then we'd better steer clear of blue.  Keeping with the greys and adding to them is the only way for us to own it.

That, I think, is overreacting.

The way the CSU was "introduced" had a great deal to do with the problems with it.  If we work with CAP-USAF on this, the outcome will be different.

[Major Carrales]

Without the gray pants you might as well keep the TPU. Sure its not double breasted and doesn't use almost as much USAF stuff as the regular uniform, but its still a bluish coat with blue pants.

I think if your designing a dress up form of the grays it doesn't make sense to have to change pants just to put on a service coat.

Again, the Air Force does not hold a monopoly on all shades of blue.

:::snip:::

Yep, that's true.  But if we don't want the AF to come back a couple of years later then we'd better steer clear of blue.  Keeping with the greys and adding to them is the only way for us to own it.

That, I think, is overreacting.

The way the CSU was "introduced" had a great deal to do with the problems with it.  If we work with CAP-USAF on this, the outcome will be different.

That is based on speculation and assumption.  At this point the motives, meanings and machinations of CAP-USAF are unknown.

I find it odd that people proceed without knowing the full story and adopt speculations as facts.  For all you and me and we all know, the CSU was killed out of an attempt by the NEC to pacify "membership outrages" against the original adoption of that uniform.

Unless I have missed it (which is possible since I have ben away from CAPTALK as few days), I would need to see documented evidence of CAP-USAF on this matter.  And "hearsay" is not such documentation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Major Carrales:

Everything on this thread is based at least in part on assumption, speculation and suggestion.

We do not indeed have any kind of documentation, other than the feed from NEC, and that Vanguard has removed the CSU service coat from their site.  I said on another post that we won't know what to do without an ICL.

What I am trying to get across here is that some (not all) CAP members seem to be snakebitten by anything to do with the colour blue; like "it's gotta be grey! we can't have blue! blue will tick the AF off! blue will be a repeat of the CSU!"

What I was also trying to say that the outcome is much more likely to be good if we work with, and not against, CAP-USAF.  There is absolutely no way we can predict how every member of the active AF, Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve would react to any potential uniform design.

[Gunner C]

/quote]
However, I am in agreement with you about sleeve braid.  I don't think it's needed on the AF-type uniform for that matter...it's a commissioning stripe, and we are not commissioned.

Once again . . . They are braids for officers.  It has NOTHING to do with a commission.

[LTC Don]

Here's the latest:



Senior member version with LAPD blue CAP embroidered epaulets and CAP cutouts (US optional pending more opinions for or against)

LAPD Blue nameplate in lieu of gray for seniors.

Wing/Region/National patch shown in place (optional)

For 18+ cadets who do not meet H/W requirements for USAF uniform:


Cadet Airmen: Self explanatory, follows setup of Old-Style Blues coat.


Cadet Officers: Also follows the setup of Old-Style Blues.

The goal should be to get us all into as close a uniform as possible.  I like the direction, but there is still some work to be done.

1.  Again, the grey slides are redundant with regards to the CAP, if we have CAP cutouts on the lapel.  STAY with metal grade insignia and nothing else on the epaulet; keep it simple.

2. Standardize nameplates.  There is no valid reason to have differing nameplates between cadet and senior members.  Up until the maroon epaulet debacle, seniors and cadets did wear the same nameplate. Lets get us back to where we need to be. I firmly believe, in this instance, that the cadet and senior namplates in LAPDB should be standardized.  This only works with using LAPDB slides with embroidered CAP for use on the white shirt for senior member rank.

3. Again, with standardization, if the goal is to develop a organizational-level uniform, then both cadets and senior members should transition to the LAPDB uniform over the long term, and move away from the Air Force uniform, BUT, using their standards for wear/placement of devices/ribbons/badges, etc.  Just because the Air Force gives cadets one new uniform is not enough of a valid reason to stay with that program.  If you are truly commited to fix our 'branding' problem, then this is the way to go.  There is nothing to say that units can't apply for grants to ramp up uniform purchasing/issue programs for their cadets.

4. Adopting LAPDB fixes a lot of issues.  Black pants and jackets are not acceptable in this instance and should not be considered.


Can we get a closeup of the bright buttons.  Is this the old style CAP crest, or a simplified prop/triangle button like the original-style buttons (which I like better for simplicity).

Cheers,

[kd8gua]

LTC Don,

For the buttons, I am using Vanguard's CAP crest buttons. A quick search through the Waterbury Button Company's website (they by the way seemingly have the monopoly on buttons - every style dating back to at least the Civil War) shows that both the triangle and prop version, as well as the USAF style CAP crest are available, and in one of a dozen finishes and sizes.

Triangle and prop:
http://www.waterburybutton.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=21339

Full crest:
http://www.waterburybutton.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=21881

[PHall]

Not to be the wet blanket for this party, but, how do you guys plan to get this approved?

Do you have several National Board members who are willing to sponsor this new uniform?
Will these sponsors be able to get your proposal through the approval process?

A no answer to either of the above two questions means that this will probably be a "pipe dream" exercise.
A lot of thought and work for nothing...

[Hawk200]

.... the triangle and prop version, ..., and in one of a dozen finishes and sizes.

Triangle and prop:
http://www.waterburybutton.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=21339

Nice. Now I know where to get them for those historical uniforms I want to put together.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Not to be the wet blanket for this party, but, how do you guys plan to get this approved?

Do you have several National Board members who are willing to sponsor this new uniform?
Will these sponsors be able to get your proposal through the approval process?

A no answer to either of the above two questions means that this will probably be a "pipe dream" exercise.
A lot of thought and work for nothing...

PHall, first I believe that all of our Wing Kings are on the NB.  Second, that is what the purpose of this discussion is - to come up with something that has the support of members from across the country, to get ideas from them, and then once everyone is more or less on the same page, move the thing forward.  Heck, even if only half of us send the proposal up through the chain (and keep the cross communication going), it will gain support at higher levels. 

Now, I know CAP is not a democracy – yet it is.  We, the membership, may not have “a vote” to elect our leaders, but we are still a force to be reckoned with; CAP exists through its membership.  As has been pointed out oh-so many times, we are NOT the military, we are a public corporation.  This board is trying to organize a truly "grass-roots" campaign.  That, after all, is what the country's civic process is based on.  Any support would be truly helpful.

At worst, even if it goes nowhere, those that pushed for the proposal, can say "At least I stepped up and tried!"

[RiverAux]

Not to be the wet blanket for this party, but, how do you guys plan to get this approved?

Do you have several National Board members who are willing to sponsor this new uniform?
Will these sponsors be able to get your proposal through the approval process?

A no answer to either of the above two questions means that this will probably be a "pipe dream" exercise.
A lot of thought and work for nothing...

Let them have their fun.  About as much effort went into the uniform committee thread a while back with no apparent results.  But, if you expect actual results from anything proposed on CAPTalk, you're deluding yourself.  Its the fun of talking about what might be that keeps people going. 

[Major Carrales]

Ho-hum...what can I say.  All I know is that the movement at present is to reduce uniforms, not add more.  Unless one planned to remove all USAF style uniforms and replace them with the one presented here (of which I am in awe) I don't see this as getting adopted.

I can appreciate the "exercise" nature of this thread...when I once tried something similar I was summarily "dog-piled..." I must point out that when one goes off "half-cocked" without the full explanation, facts and the like, the result can only be heartbreak.

Moving cadets into these uniforms will not be easy.  In a world where the service coats and other shirts, pants etc cost over 300 bucks I can without reservation say that most cadets will never own these things.  Unless you plan to have a cadet corps made up of Richie Rich, Scrooge McDuck's nephews and Thurston Howell IV.

Most Cadets, you will find, wear a supplied uniform from the USAF and a smattering of surplus store fodder (unless their unit, like ours, has come into a supply of BDUs et al).  In our unit, aside from the uniforms from the program, are used items that I've found at thrift stores or the like and only a fraction of a percent of cadets have ever bought their uniforms new. 

[cap235629]

Sparky,

The only cadets that the proposed uniform would effect are those over 18 who do not meet H/W.  They no longer have a uniform to wear other than the gray/white just like those senior members who do  not meet H/W.  Prior to the edict from above, they had the option to wear the CSU