Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[Eclipse]

I think having CP SMs dressed in a significantly different manner than the cadets they are mentoring would set a poor example, and be a detriment to our purposes.

Um, what?

I can't speak for what happens in your area, but in these parts whites and the golf shirt are worn by at least 50% of the seniors involved in CP.  Many have no other option.

I don't disagree with your comment from a ideology perspective, but its not the practical reality of the program.  Its is, however, a big part of my assertion that the CSU solves a big problem.

The CP side of the house tends to be much more steeped in pomp and circumstance, utilizes military facilities more often, and in general requires more military bearing and attention than the OPS or AE side, and as such, the need for more formal attire comes up a lot more in that arena than others.

[jacob]

The male version of the service cap would be the only authorized version (for males and females), unless VG or another supplier would take on the task of making matching color Female Service Caps.

Many female members I've spoken with quite dislike the design of the female service cap.  I can't say I disagree with them - luckily as a male, I'll never have the pleasure of wearing one.  I don't think a male-style only service cap would be seen as a loss

-CAP lapel cutouts.

While I agree that something needs to go on the lapels, I think CAP cutouts are redundant as they already appear on the grey slides.  Maybe this would be different enough to be able to wear US cutouts?  If not, perhaps something close to the old Army Air Corps wing and prop insignia.

I think a dark blue jacket would go well with standardized grey pants.  Would the AF blue tie be close enough in shade to look right?

[kd8gua]

I think a dark blue jacket would go well with standardized grey pants.  Would the AF blue tie be close enough in shade to look right?

CAP cutouts could be a little redundant, you are right. I strayed away from the US cutouts since this isn't an actual RM uniform. The AAC Wing/prop would be acceptable too I think.

As far as ties go, the options would be either AF blue or black. The jacket I based this off of was used about 20 years ago as the basis for the Ohio State University Marching Band's uniforms. With the OSUMB military style uniform, a black tie and white dress shirt are worn. However, newer versions of the OSU uniform are such a dark shade of blue they appear black. So from a distance black on blue doesn't conflict as much. I stayed with AF blue because the tie is much darker than the 1620 or 1625 shades for the service coats, and would probably be very close to the Flying Cross jacket.

[Slim]

I think a dark blue jacket would go well with standardized grey pants.  Would the AF blue tie be close enough in shade to look right?

Imagine how it would look with matching, dark navy pants.

The jacket looks good (better than I thought, actually).  What I do see as a problem is a cost factor.  That jacket is upwards of $200 (probably more), may or may not have a badge tab sewn in or on, above the left pocket.  Matching trousers are about $60-70 each.  If cost savings are a consideration, this won't do.

Another plus is that this combo would be readily available from local sources too.  As long as you know the style and shade of coat/pants, any public safety uniform shop can order them, just need to have the proper buttons available from Vanguard.  The good news is that most of those places include tailoring in the purchase price.

And no, the Air Force blue tie wouldn't work, the shades aren't even close to matching.  But ties that do match are also readily available.

[kd8gua]

The jacket, as produced, comes with cross-stitched epaulets and a badge tab. The cross stitching would have to be removed to allow for full size sleeves to fit, unless metal rank was used (but that's another can of worms). IF, and this is a big IF, metal rank was used, then CAP cutouts would be mandatory.

The badge tab looks like it is sewn at the top and bottom (so the badge does not actually go through the jacket material itself) and could probably be easily removed at the time of re-buttoning.

[treefrog]

I have ideas like everyone else but I simply do not think we can accomplish anything here. If this is a move on CAP's part to get along with the Uniform Board, they themselves can't  design a new USAF Dress Uniform. But simply nothing will be done without their blessing, present powers or clics that be, and perhaps Vanguard. There was no real trouble before General Merrill Anthony "Tony" McPeak and our own versions of him some better known than others.  We have been lucky. I've seen grade insignia proposals that would make us into the Argintine Air Force that have been proposed.  Sad thing to me is loss of the Aviator shirt and blue pants. It was a hard sell in the poor photos provided by National HQ but looked good on members I have seen wear it in real life, much to my surprise. It was something positive lost.
Sorry to take your time

[Gunner C]

Looks good! 

• Take the "CAP" off the slides (there's already CAP on the lapel - redundancy is not your friend). 
• No patches:  we've already gone that route and back.  Most CAP wing patches aren't that professional looking and the region/national arc just looks bad.
  

[jacob]

Take the "CAP" off the slides (there's already CAP on the lapel - redundancy is not your friend).

I would leave the "CAP" on the slides and remove the cutouts, for the following reasons:

• The grey slides with the "CAP" already exist - removing the "CAP" would necessitate creation of a new item.
• The "CAP" should go with the rank.  Having it embroidered on the slides eliminates placement issues - it's in the same spot for everyone, every time..

That does leave the question of what to put in their place though.

Another option is something I've seen a state defense force do: they wear the regular Army issue slides, and then pin the state abbreviation cutout onto the slide and through the epaulette.  The added advantage is it keeps the slide in place.  I still think the existing grey slides are the best option though, for the reasons noted above.

I do think the grey slides could do with an overhaul though - make them look more like Army or Air Force slides (a little longer, and a little flatter).  But that's different issue.

[Gunner C]

Let's call this the "CAP Grey Service Uniform" or GSU for lack of anything else right now.  With this, we'd have several possible combinations:

• Combination 1:  Jacket
• Combination 2:  Long sleeved shirt w/tie
• Combination 3:  Short sleeved shirt w/o tie (wearing a tie w/a SS shirt makes one look like a used car salesman IMO)
• Combination 4:  Golf shirt using same pants and belt

I think the GSU concept has merit:  it presents a professional appearance, pays homage to our WW2 paramilitary past, and keeps the AF's hands off of our stuff.

[kd8gua]

I did notice, even placing the insignia, that there was an overkill of silver CAP.

Here are some other options:

US insignia in place of CAP. I personally feel this isn't kosher, as this uniform isn't a US military uniform.


Wing and Prop USAAC insignia. Used on the cadet enlisted flight cap device and formerly used on the CAP Cadet Encampment patch, so historically accurate. However, as a lapel insignia, is used to denote USAAC veterans' descendants enrolled in the USAFA.


Removal of CAP epaulets and using metal grade in place. CAP cutouts on lapels. This theorhetically can open up another can of worms like with the TPU. I however don't think the USAF would be as opposed to metal grade on this uniform as they seemed to be with the CSU.

[Майор Хаткевич]

These look great, but look too similar to the old AF coats. I'm thinking metal grade is out for CAP.

[Gunner C]

Historically, the USAAC insignia would be on the lower part of the lapel with CAP in its present location.  IMO, we would probably be able to have either "US" on the lapel with slides or "CAP" on the lapel with metal grade insignia.  But having "US" and metal rank would get the big axe.

Frankly, the largest obstacle to anything like this would be the membership.  After being burned on the TPU, selling the GSU would be difficult.  No one would be willing to shell out big bucks for something that might be vetoed within a couple of years.  We would need assurances and by-in by the AF, to include the SECAF and the chief of staff.

[kd8gua]

Gunner,

Would you be looking for grey slacks with the GSU combinations, or matching navy blue pants for the GSU variants.

[Gunner C]

These look great, but look too similar to the old AF coats. I'm thinking metal grade is out for CAP.

The color and fabrics are key.  There's dozens of police departments that use this cut with no problem.  I think this is far enough away from the former AF four-button uniform.

[Gunner C]

Gunner,

Would you be looking for grey slacks with the GSU combinations, or matching navy blue pants for the GSU variants.

Grey pants.  Two color grey uniforms are too much like the current German AF uniform.  A single color would give a professional appearance and would be very versitile.

[kd8gua]

Oddly enough the color of that coat is "LAPD Blue" at least that's what the caption said from the website. I have seen a few of these coats in person hiding in a corner of the OSU Marching Band's uniform room, and the color is much darker than AF 1620.

[Fuzzy]

Just throwing it out there, but looking at the coat have you considered black CAP slides with black pants? Its probably a little too out of nowhere though. And you would have to change the gray pants on the short sleeve combo, but nobody ever bought the same shade anyway.

Could look sharp though.

[LtCol057]

Personally, I kinda like Gunner C's suggestion, the GSU.    Even like the 4 different combinations he suggested.   I normally wear the white/gray, but if that uniform were selected, I'd jump on it.  Only problem would be the cost.  Also, would there be another version for the females or would they wear the male jacket? 

But I'd also want to make sure that if we went to something like this, that NEC wouldn't come back in a couple years and get rid of it.  Make them have to buy it back. 

[kd8gua]

This is a picture showing the OSU Marching Band take on the Flying Cross style uniform coat. The coats pictured are just slightly (maybe 2-5 shades) darker than the dark blue that the coat in my Photo-shopped creations should be. Am I suggesting gloves, spats, white belts and feathers and a multitude of patches and stripes? No way. The coat I wore in the OSU band had the four scalloped pockets and fully useable epaulets (sleeves could be slid all the way on without having the very end of the strap cross stitched). We wore black ties with this coat.

While on the subject of ill-fitting uniforms, the member of the directing staff in the center is a female, wearing a US Navy double breasted male service coat and male service cap. This shows how double breasted coats do not look right on everyone (ie. the CSU). OSU band rules dictate all long hair must be placed in a bun that would fit in the crown of the cap. I prefer the USAF rules for females wearing male service caps, which state a bun placed below the line at which the cap is placed.

To answer the question about female coats:
This jacket I used as an example is listed as a unisex jacket. There are seperate female styles available, but the ones I have seen require epaulets to be added for an extra fee (again, more cash the end user must shell out)

[Gunner C]

There could even be a 5th combination to replace the mess dress:  Bow tie, no name tag, and miniature medals.